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why does everyone hate 4X8 layouts?

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 24, 2005 7:19 PM
You can still build a 4x8 or 5x8,10, layout without the"around & around" effect. Just run 3 staging tracks on the back straight-away,behind a backdrop,(using curved switches on the corners to make each staging track long enough to hold a train). Then you can run three different trains through the front scene & in different directions & still get spur tracks through the middle for switching. Just a thought.
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Posted by BRAKIE on Saturday, December 24, 2005 10:31 AM
John,,There are exceptions ..I can show you a urban industrial branch that is as flat as a pancake for miles no bridges,no hills and lacks normal road bed.
I can happily report NS an the CFE both run through town..[:D]

Larry

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Posted by John Busby on Friday, December 23, 2005 9:43 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Busby

Hi all
I notice a lot of people referring to flat layouts on sheets of ply wood
BEEEP!! fail[:D]
You have no chance of building a proper layout on a flat sheet of ply it is a pain in the[censored] when you want scenery below track height
Far better to use open frame bench work of some type so scenery can go above and below track easily
You only need a solid ply base under towns and track etc
so it is also possible to vary the track height if needed as well as the scenery.
There also seems to be a lack of imagination in some of the replies
perhaps that is bought on by having too much space to play with[:D]
The term model railway and the word finished don't belong in the
same sentence.
A model railway may be completed but it is never finished there is always something that can be done to improve it or if space permits be added to.
regards John


John,By using a piece of 4x8 foam you can have that scenery below the track height you talk about..
Is there a rule stating that all layouts must have mountains or scenery below the track height ? Layouts come in many flavors last time I looked.[:D]


Hi BRAKIE
No rule as such but you just have to travel a couple of miles down the track in the town you live in ( I assuming there is a railway there) to realise the the so called flat ground just isn't flat and that the undulations go below the track level even if its only the cess.
And that there are small cuts and banks that the railway travels on and through.
the effect of the rising and falling ground looks a lot better that a billiard table flat layout.
We are not talking mountains and valleys hear just undulations up to but not over 1"
in HO scale and mostly in the 1/2 to 3/4 inch range at that.
Give it time and some one will find something to change improve or add to the club layout some one always does[:D]
Where the industrial layouts truly finished or did you just decide it was time for a change[:D] was there absolutely nothing that could be added or improved.
regards John
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Posted by Don Gibson on Friday, December 23, 2005 6:42 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by jeffers_mz

Don, are you suggesting that women can't appreciate trains in the dining room and a woodshop in the kitchen?

YOU NEED TO ASK?

Your wife's been gone a long time, hasn't she.
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Posted by BRAKIE on Friday, December 23, 2005 12:00 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by John Busby

Hi all
I notice a lot of people referring to flat layouts on sheets of ply wood
BEEEP!! fail[:D]
You have no chance of building a proper layout on a flat sheet of ply it is a pain in the[censored] when you want scenery below track height
Far better to use open frame bench work of some type so scenery can go above and below track easily
You only need a solid ply base under towns and track etc
so it is also possible to vary the track height if needed as well as the scenery.
There also seems to be a lack of imagination in some of the replies
perhaps that is bought on by having too much space to play with[:D]
The term model railway and the word finished don't belong in the
same sentence.
A model railway may be completed but it is never finished there is always something that can be done to improve it or if space permits be added to.
regards John


John,By using a piece of 4x8 foam you can have that scenery below the track height you talk about..
Is there a rule stating that all layouts must have mountains or scenery below the track height ? Layouts come in many flavors last time I looked.[:D]

As far as a layout never being finish our club layout been finish since 94..[:D] I have finish several industrial switching layouts over the years and 1 N Scale hollow core door layout..

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


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Posted by John Busby on Friday, December 23, 2005 10:46 AM
Hi all
I notice a lot of people referring to flat layouts on sheets of ply wood
BEEEP!! fail[:D]
You have no chance of building a proper layout on a flat sheet of ply it is a pain in the[censored] when you want scenery below track height
Far better to use open frame bench work of some type so scenery can go above and below track easily
You only need a solid ply base under towns and track etc
so it is also possible to vary the track height if needed as well as the scenery.
There also seems to be a lack of imagination in some of the replies
perhaps that is bought on by having too much space to play with[:D]
The term model railway and the word finished don't belong in the
same sentence.
A model railway may be completed but it is never finished there is always something that can be done to improve it or if space permits be added to.
regards John
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Posted by jeffers_mz on Friday, December 23, 2005 10:39 AM
Don, are you suggesting that women can't appreciate trains in the dining room and a woodshop in the kitchen?

Brakie, you're right, swinging the door in would cost six feet of shelf and clothes hangar space, and wouldn't open all the way even then because the closet is 24 inches deep. I think that's a 2-4 door. The closet's currently full of the kid's camping gear also. Every closet, and just about every lineal foot of wall space in the whole house is either full now or spoken for. There's an eight foot couch I could hang shelves above, but most of that is window, otherwise, the place is full up.

The good news is that I talked to my neighbor last night. He owns a Case 4400 Extend-a-Hoe, and I'm first in line for him to dig the footers for the pole barn when the ground thaws come spring. By Christmas of 2006, space issues for the trains, the studio, the camping gear, and the servers shouldn't be a problem any more.

Chip, I've thought of running a spur through the left wall in the first pic, to display staging on the bookshelves on the other side, but that was when I still thought I could get away with stacking the layout under a bunk bed.

Regarding bigger holes in other walls, one time we showed up on a jobsite around 1 pm, with orders to gut the existing residence to a bare shell inside. Sheetrock on the exterior walls and the center bearing wall were to stay, everything else must go, and the owners were living in it while we were to do the work.

Around three o clock, the salesman who had sold the job showed up, took a look at our progress ( we were nearly finished) , and pulled me outside. He said he charged them two grand for the demo, that we were making him look real bad knocking it out in two hours, and asked us to please slow down. No, if holes are needed, that won't be a problem.

:-)

That's it for me. Break time's over. Less than 10 more more presents to wrap, then dishes, vacuuming and laundry will run me till time to pick the kids up this afternoon, and from there till Sunday night, the madness will rule to the point I doubt I'll be online. Monday I'll be catching up on sleep, so if I don't see you all till Tuesday, have a good Christmas.

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Friday, December 23, 2005 9:46 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Chip,That would work but,I would still opt for the "L" shape layout with staging..


Maybe we should get his floor plan and whip something up for him. [:D]

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Friday, December 23, 2005 9:42 AM
Chip,That would work but,I would still opt for the "L" shape layout with staging..

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Friday, December 23, 2005 9:25 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Originally posted by SpaceMouse


Chip we will start with that nook..Then we have want appears to be a closet door..Now if that closet is like the average closet no way will we get that door to swing in because most closets I have seen isn't big enough to walk in let along open a door into the closet space.


I thought from the way he talked that we were looking at 2 passage doors, but...

Remember who we are dealing with here. Holes can be poked (and fixed later). He thinks in terms of staging. So you pull the door and put the staging in the closet.

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Friday, December 23, 2005 8:57 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

The second picture shows a nook that might be hard to deal with if you go strictly with the perimeter. I think that is what he is referring to.


Chip we will start with that nook..Then we have want appears to be a closet door..Now if that closet is like the average closet no way will we get that door to swing in because most closets I have seen isn't big enough to walk in let along open a door into the closet space.
Now,all isn't lost.[:D] A small "L" shape layout could be built between the doors after removing the shelving like you suggested....And that is where I would build a "L" shape industrial switching layout since it appears there isn't much room for a decent size curve turnback..[:D]

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


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Posted by Don Gibson on Thursday, December 22, 2005 9:33 PM
jeffers_mz

Thank you for the pictures. I think they make the best case for 'N' gauge I've ever seen. I'm going to guess that your not married - at least not presently - and you're a man of many interest's and hobbies, most of which are occupying the same room. Your 'Train aisleway's double for reaching storage. Very resoursfull.

Your room makes a good case for the 'Murphy Bed' principle (fold up), or 50" high, so you can store things UNDER it. I'm sure you've already thought of it, so my first recommedation is probably the best one. Store your HO and build an 'N' replacement, which for you should be easy to do. A 2X4 against a wall might also give you more room... And at today's prices a case of your friend J.B. might even cover the costs.

Cheers!

Don Gibson .............. ________ _______ I I__()____||__| ||||| I / I ((|__|----------| | |||||||||| I ______ I // o--O O O O-----o o OO-------OO ###########################
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Posted by Don Gibson on Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:38 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by UPFEF

Is a 4 x 8 "Z"scale layout to small and constraining?


If you cut it's width to 3 feet (or less) you can shove it against a wall, have passenger friendly curves, and still reach everything.
Don Gibson .............. ________ _______ I I__()____||__| ||||| I / I ((|__|----------| | |||||||||| I ______ I // o--O O O O-----o o OO-------OO ###########################
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Posted by SpaceMouse on Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:23 PM
The second picture shows a nook that might be hard to deal with if you go strictly with the perimeter. I think that is what he is referring to.

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by ocalicreek on Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:22 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

Ocalicreek:

A 10X12 room (such as a bedroom) can be illuminated by a single 100 watt bulb (and most are). IDEAL lighting is an overhead Valance illuminating the SCENE. Anything in-between is the builder's choice.


True, but the valance, etc. becomes that much more work. Not that it's not worth it - I think it is, absolutely. Highlights the trains and scenes in a great way.

QUOTE:
A 4X8 layout with train's running around every 12 second's is simply SIMPLER to build - it's main attraction - Plywood board's already come in that size. Cutting a Ply sheet into 4 1X8 board's add's $1 to the cost, takes up the same SPACE, and extend's the runing time by 4x - to 48 second's. 4 smaller support's instead of 1 large one, and as for entry - hinged gates were invented thousand's of year's ago. They also can swing UP as well as back & forth.


For pursuing that option, these seem like great steps to take. Again, it's a few more steps that some are willing to take (probably to their detriment) I agree that a little more work up front can produce a better result in the long run.

QUOTE:
A layout along a wall using a corner is also a more efficient use of space - however it is supported.


Define "efficient". Not a challenge, just seeking clarification so we're on the same page.

QUOTE:
The 4X8 is a holdover from the 'TOY TRAIN' era of Lionel with Table Tennis sized curves and plug-together track, for boy's and father's to enjoy together. Weve gone from 3 rail to 2 rail, and AC to DC - and now DCC, but in an era of realistic $250 engines with sound and $50 passenger cars, one can still elect to build a layout designed 60 year's ago. Problem is getting TODAY'S modern equipment to run on it.


Totally agree here as well. Sure, somebody will write in saying how they get 6 axle diesels and double stacks around a 4x8, but from a standpoint of realism is a big compromise. Is it fun? Probably. But not my chosen version of fun.

As for being one of the aforementioned generalizers, well, let's just say I like to think of the big picture as well as the details. I'm not knocking anybody's carpentry skills. That's part of this hobby - learning more about other areas like wiring, electronics, painting, scuplting, history, geography, and yes, carpentry.

You've heard of 'analysis paralysis'? How about 'perfection petrification'. Another name for armchair modelers (or any of us in an armchair state of mind) that won't build something until they can build what they're dreaming of. I've been there. Anybody else?

Part of what brought me to this thread was a desire to learn more about the options, pros and cons of 4x8 vs. round the walls approaches. In my setting, building around the walls brings some severe compromises. I have been debating whether the benefits are worth those compromises. In a sense, I came looking to be convinced that around the walls is the way to go, but I'm still finding more benefits with fewer compromises for the 4x8 for my setting and my set of givens and druthers. Given a different space, I'd opt for a dogbone in a corner or some other wall based plan. But for me right now, 4x8 seems to be the way to go.

Ocalicreek
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Posted by jeffers_mz on Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:40 PM
Well, I've spent some time looking at those walls, and have yet to see a reason why I can't run a shelf layout due to the walls. The available space, ok, walls no.

The interior walls are two by four studs, 24 inches on center, and they'll carry about any train load I can think of. On the far side of the left wall in the first pic is an integrated additional wall made of two by twelve studs backed with three quarter inch plywood. This is tornado country, number one on earth for killer F-5's and after total failure at the foundation/framing interface, the second leading cause of storm deaths in modular homes is being crushed inside the steel bands surrounding the whole house every four feet longways.

This one is tied down in the usual manner, plus rebar from the footer into the (concrete filled) foundation block cores every four feet, corresponding with 10 inch J bolts which hold down a two by ten treated sill plate, which in turn is attached to the joists with half inch by 4 inch lag screws every four feet. I did all that myself, and built the internal shear wall later on to prolong resistance to crushing.

The exterior walls are two by six studs, set 16 inches center to center and will again carry whatever is required, within reasonable limits. The trim on the wall's interior face might get in the way of shelving, but you can cut it with a sharp knife.

So what are you seeing, Brakie, that would inhibit a round the room layout if the space wasn't already in service for storage and computer stuff?
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Posted by BRAKIE on Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:05 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I thought you didn't mind duck-unders. This man could flip those doors in under an hour.


Chip,You're right I don't mind duck unders IF they are truly needed and I am 57 years old....

Look again at that room..If you miss it this time I will tell you and I am not being a wise guy...I caught right off but,I been looking at layout spaces for years LOL!..[;)][:D]

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by jeffers_mz on Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:00 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Greyryder

If it were me, in that space, I would have done some reorganizing, and run a narrow shelf around the walls, with a nice truss bridge running aross the window. But then, I don't require continueous running.


A big truss across the window would look really sharp. I've been looking for some way to fit the Firth of Forth bridge into a Colorado mining layout and coming up dry.

http://www.glasssteelandstone.com/UK/Scotland/EdinburghFirthofForth.html

Or else one of those huge slender arch under a single track deck. Was thinking about the Golden Gate bridge the other day too. In HO, to scale, it'd be around 45 feet long with the towers nine feet tall.

It's not over yet though, give me time. If I can't find a way to put more bridges into this layout, I'll either start another one or else build them for other people. Building bridges is probably my favorite modeling.
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Posted by jeffers_mz on Thursday, December 22, 2005 6:38 PM
The tools migrate all the time. That's another reason it'll be better in the dining room. Closer to the woodworking shop in the kitchen, less turn around time.

I like the piano hinge idea. Velcro up top? Might have to borrow that one.

:-)
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 22, 2005 6:34 PM
If it were me, in that space, I would have done some reorganizing, and run a narrow shelf around the walls, with a nice truss bridge running aross the window. But then, I don't require continueous running.
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Posted by SpaceMouse on Thursday, December 22, 2005 6:06 PM
QUOTE: One o them generalizers was bemoaning how you can't have backdrops on a four by eight, but anyone who understands a cantilever knows that's not true. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I can have backdrops AND under mountain access in all areas WITHOUT having to unsheath the trusty cordless drill every time too. A big hole for each screwhead, a littler hole/slot above and let gravity do the rest.


I'm using a piano hinge.

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Thursday, December 22, 2005 6:02 PM
I said under an hour--wasn't counting tools. Besides you probably have everything you need right in the room. Don't I see a Sawall on that top shelf?

Chip

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Posted by jeffers_mz on Thursday, December 22, 2005 5:51 PM
Nah, probably not an hour. I shoot for eight a day, singles or doubles, and my record was nine, pretty, with the crack the same size all around and they stay where you let go of them instead of swinging closed. The key is the order of fixing the jamb in place. One pin above the top hinge near but not in the shim to allow for later tweaking, (making sure to shim the middle hinge plumb first, or you bow the case and have to chase that curve out with shims all the way down come final attachment) one pin at the bottom, tweak for dead plumb, the hinge pins, not the door, not the casing, hungover bums assemble those, but gravity acts on the hinges, shim the middle hinge to match the reveal, close the door to set the reveal across the top, pin that, shim to the reveal all down the striker side, hard nail all around, and on to the next. Woe be unto the guy who doesn't check the floor for level first though.

The problem with doors is that it takes the same amount of time to roll out and roll up the tools for one door as it does for ten, so it'd probbly be two hours, including coffee break and all. Might have to consult some other guys, too, this is a union job, right?
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Posted by jeffers_mz on Thursday, December 22, 2005 5:27 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Jeff, my man you need just shy of a case to work that layout.

But, you know, with a helix you could triple that layout. [:D]

14K beats me. I was a general for 15 years myownself.

PS: Take out those shelves, build a round the room at 60" extend the shelves underneath out perpendicular to the walls to 30"--you have all the shelf space plus room for the desk and the drum set under the layout.

I like micro brews.




I actually thought about coming around underneath from the far end to a lower staging area, but there's an easier way.

You were ineligible from square one. You've maintained a balanced rational attitude all through this thing and besides, I don't mess with guys who carry 112 pounds with popsicle sticks. Yep, nice guys finish last, but being a general, you already know that.

Ever tried Fat Tire Dark?

Being as I prefer a stool to the floor when tearing up the skins, that whole deal is coming up OUT of there, right after Christmas. See, my breakfast room is full of tools and workbench. Most of the dust never makes it to the attached kitchen because I use a dust collection system and besides, most folks pay EXTRA to get more fiber into their diet.

The dining room walls are spoke for too, lots and lots of books. However....by spinning my desk 90 degrees, I can park the layout dead against the bookshelves when not running trains, I've read all those books at least twice anyway. On ops days, or when I need to look something up, she'll roll (yes I need folding legs with castors) out about 18 inches while still maintaining three feet of clearance for the back door outside. I eat watching TV, and have no desire to feed or entertain strays, so who needs a dining room OR a breakfast room?

I'll have enough room to roll the chair out from my desk plus two feet between desk and chair, and if running trains, can use some of that for access to the wall end of the table in the rare event that becomes necessary. The Horseshoe Curve goes to the wall and with the other three sides easily accessible, I don't see the need , but it's there should it be necessary.

One o them generalizers was bemoaning how you can't have backdrops on a four by eight, but anyone who understands a cantilever knows that's not true. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I can have backdrops AND under mountain access in all areas WITHOUT having to unsheath the trusty cordless drill every time too. A big hole for each screwhead, a littler hole/slot above and let gravity do the rest.

Come fall, if all goes according to plan, the studio, the camping gear, and the layout all move to the pole barn, which currently is represented by four snowy tomato stakes out back. 1500 square feet of floor space and another 750 square feet of storage footprint amongst the trusses over the finished half. Just in flood space, the barn's about 15 square feet bigger than the house. At that point, the virtual Durango staging yard becomes the de facto Durango, and if the spirit moves, and the flesh is still willing, why not throw in the SN, the SG and N, and heck, even the RGS too? Notice how the outer mainline in front of Silverton looks...sorta bare, hmmMMM?

Fallback plan has the layout in the dining room, for another year, the studio as is (and if I find any peanut butter in my PC's drive slots, well, Oscar Mayer's paying 35 cents a pound, bones, shoes, and all) and I'll pack up every pack to keep stuff localized and part the climbing gear out in nooks and crannies around the house.

If you're wondering, yes....I am a bit sorry my kid got HO for his birthday, and that it matched the HO I've been saving since about 1977. N gauge is looking VERY attractive these days.

:-)
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Posted by SpaceMouse on Thursday, December 22, 2005 5:05 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Chip,Take a closer look at those walls..That room doesn't favor a round the walls layout..See what I am seeing?


I thought you didn't mind duck-unders. This man could flip those doors in under an hour.

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:53 PM
Chip,Take a closer look at those walls..That room doesn't favor a round the walls layout..See what I am seeing?

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:47 PM
Oh yeah, and you have room in the center.

Chip

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Posted by BRAKIE on Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:46 PM
Don,A 1 foot wide board takes a lot of planing to use with todays industrial buildings..I truly doubt if there is that many modelers today that could build a round the walls layout with foot wide boards..I know old geezers like us could.
One of my favorite industrial switching layout plans was built on a 1 foot by 6 foot board....The question is how many modelers would want to continually switch cars?

http://www.carendt.us/articles/highland/index.html
=============================================================
Chip,Perhaps by you saying "Newbee 4 x 8 Disease"..Now make no mistake a round the wall layout is better but,some times a 4x8 must get the job done for several reasons to include cash flow and what the boss woman says.We haven't gone that route yet..LOL!

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:44 PM
Jeff, my man you need just shy of a case to work that layout.

But, you know, with a helix you could triple that layout. [:D]

14K beats me. I was a general for 15 years myownself.

PS: Take out those shelves, build a round the room at 60" extend the shelves underneath out perpendicular to the walls to 30"--you have all the shelf space plus room for the desk and the drum set under the layout.

I like micro brews.

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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