why does everyone hate 4X8 layouts?

[jecorbett]

I doubt that many modelers who end up staying in the hobby build their first layout as a keeper. A few might end up incorporating their early effort into a larger layout ala John Allen whose original 3X6 Gorre and Daphetid was included in both his second and final G&D layouts. Most of us end up building more than one layout in our lifetimes so why not start on a 4X8. It's a great learning platform and there are numerous track plans already published for that size. My first layout was a 4X8 and I loved it and those memories I had as a youth got me back into the hobby as an adult.

[CMSTPP]

Small, not alot of space to build a yard. not enough track there to even handle what I have. That pretty much answers it.
James

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Ok Guys,Tell me this..Name a layout that doesn't have limitions? A round the walls has limitions,a basement size layout has limitions as does the biggest of club layouts.I think we all can agree that 90% or more of the layouts built is built with loops for continuous running just like a 4x8..Why? Limitations.

Certainly all layouts have limitations. I'm not trying to be argumentative. But I believe that a 4 x 8 is not a one-size-fits-all condom for newbees.

QUOTE: Now Chip and selector please tell me whats wrong with those layout that I linked to? I bet you didn't bother to look because of your mind is set against 4x8 foot or less layouts or are they proof positive what a good small layout design can look like and above all very operational.

Yes, I did look at them and they are good designs. I posted a couple 4 x 8 with good designs. As I mentioned. I think my 4 x 8 layout is a good design. So?

QUOTE: There are many things you guys are over looking including carpenter skills of the new modeler..

The difference between the skills for a 4 x 8 and shelf layout is the ability to cut a piece of plywood. Everything else is the same. The lumber yards will cut the plywood for 25 cents a cut.

QUOTE: What if modelers doesn't have a basement or large spare room and can only work with a 4x8 foot layout space?

Unless the 4 x 8 folds into a closet or can be raised to the ceiling it is going to take 10 x 12 no matter how you look at it.

QUOTE: Have you forgotten the other inhabitants of the house that might need space as well? How about not having the mega $$$ needed to build that super size layout? What if the modeler rents and can't anchor into the walls for that round the walls king size loop??

Loops can be free standing and even break down into modules.

QUOTE: So,I guess and according to your thoughts these modelers should not build a 4x8 foot layout???

I don't know where you get the idea that I think no one should have a 4 x 8 layout. They are warrented in certain circumstances. But just as I say this, for most people there are better alternatives. I cannot herald them as greatest model railroad concept since the Kaydee coupler. The 4x8 is not inherently a model railroading design, it is a toy train design, an extention of the train set loop concept that gets it off the floor. The fact that competent model railroders can make something of it is more of testiment to an individuals skill at working within a limitation than maximizing use of a spacial environment.

[IRONROOSTER]

I would like to disagree on a couple of points:

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Unless the 4 x 8 folds into a closet or can be raised to the ceiling it is going to take 10 x 12 no matter how you look at it.

This seems to be based on the assumption that space is needed on all 4 sides and that the amount of space needed is 3 ft on each long side and 2 ft at each end.

If you put one 4 ft end against the wall the 12 feet reduces to 10 feet while leaving adequate access from the sides. One of the side aisles can be 18" for construction and maintenance and the other aisle can be 30" for operating. This means that you can make it work with an 8x10 ft room. This is about the size of many small bedrooms and will leave room for the door and access to the closet.

QUOTE: The difference between the skills for a 4 x 8 and shelf layout is the ability to cut a piece of plywood. Everything else is the same. The lumber yards will cut the plywood for 25 cents a cut.

Not exactly, you either have to build a removable bridge/gate across the doorway or rehang the door so it swings outward. Making the first reliable can be a problem. The second leaves you with a duck under into the room not to mention which rehanging a door may not be allowed if you're renting; and it requires a little more skill to get it right than building a train table.

Enjoy
Paul

[cuyama]

Let me say first that I don't actually hate the 4X8 -- but I wi***he commercial press would discuss the alternatives.

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER
If you put one 4 ft end against the wall the 12 feet reduces to 10 feet while leaving adequate access from the sides.
<snip>
This means that you can make it work with an 8x10 ft room.

You can also make a much more interesting HO alternative work in an 8X10 room. This one needs  access hatches.

This HO 8X10 around-the room layout offers 24" radius curves, impossible on an HO 4X8

'nuff said

[Duce]

I have never heard anyone say they hate 4X8 layouts. The reason I didnt go with one is because the space issue. I have a 12X12 room I didnt want it etting in the middle. I have a shelf layout that goes all the way around the room. If the space is not an issue I dont see anything wrong with a 4X8

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Ok Guys,Tell me this..Name a layout that doesn't have limitions? A round the walls has limitions,a basement size layout has limitions as does the biggest of club layouts.I think we all can agree that 90% or more of the layouts built is built with loops for continuous running just like a 4x8..Why? Limitations.

Now Chip and selector please tell me whats wrong with those layout that I linked to? I bet you didn't bother to look because of your mind is set against 4x8 foot or less layouts or are they proof positive what a good small layout design can look like and above all very operational..

There are many things you guys are over looking including carpenter skills of the new modeler..What if modelers doesn't have a basement or large spare room and can only work with a 4x8 foot layout space? Have you forgotten the other inhabitants of the house that might need space as well? How about not having the mega $$$ needed to build that super size layout? What if the modeler rents and can't anchor into the walls for that round the walls king size loop?? So,I guess and according to your thoughts these modelers should not build a 4x8 foot layout???

You are right, on all counts. [:D]

What I was attempting to say is that when a newcomer bursts on the scene saying they want to build a 4X8, we KNOW the provenance of the idea...a simple shape on a readily available piece of plywood. It takes no imagination to come up with that one...we all do. What I meant to say is that we should ask the questioner, who is after all asking for advice, if she/he is aware of some of the more obvious limitations. If we surprise them by naming one or two that they had not considered, and they wholeheartedly agree to take another look, have we not provided a service?

By all means, folks, build that 4x8. It is a great way to start, as I said before. So is getting curves that don't fit the loco you dream about. And you'd probably thank me for pointing out that it won't take the 18" curves.

Yes, every one has limitations, but as we go up the food chain, there are fewer of them. Someone who "thinks bigger" will probably do well...in the long run.

Just my two cents.

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIESorry Guys..I still maintain...a 4x8 layout is far better then no layout ...and dreaming of that dream layout that may never materialized.

There is alway's the missed opportunity of running train's on the carpet, but I agree, 'SOMETHING' is better than nothing.

QUOTE: Again I find the need to challenge .. the 4x8 bashers feel they must bash ...on how "bad" a 4x8 is and ... and look down their long self righteous noses on those that chose to build a 4x8 layout. http://www.gatewaynmra.org/project.htm

'DISPLAY' layout's - such as was referrenced seem to have a goal of seeng how much can be crammed into a minimum of space - good for a temporary audience with short attention span's -and has a basic Department Store 'toylike' appeal, which may be it's charm.

QUOTE: What if modelers doesn't have a basement or large spare room and can only work with a 4x8 foot layout space?

OK, Larry, How much space does a 4X8 take up? (Can you put it in a 4X8 room?)

QUOTE: There are many things you guys are over looking including carpenter skills of the new modeler... How about not having the mega $$$ needed to build that super size layout? What if the modeler rents and can't anchor into the walls for that round the walls king size loop?? So,I guess and according to your thoughts these modelers should not build a 4x8 foot layout???

Larry, EVERY layout has limitation's - but then so does it's owner.

QUOTE: I find that most if not a good portion of the newbees that get on this board jump into a 4 x 8 not because they thought about it, but because they got an Atlas book for $3.95 or so and the track plan looked easy.

But that's all the thought they put into it. This type of person will get the track layed, start running trains, make 6 laps a minute until they get bored and say, "Now what?"

Chip Mouse, May I quote you?

QUOTE: FACT: People build 4X8's because they think it's simpler to do. - DG

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

QUOTE: I find that most if not a good portion of the newbees that get on this board jump into a 4 x 8 not because they thought about it, but because they got an Atlas book for $3.95 or so and the track plan looked easy.

But that's all the thought they put into it. This type of person will get the track layed, start running trains, make 6 laps a minute until they get bored and say, "Now what?"

Chip Mouse, May I quote you?

I think you just did.

[Anonymous]

This is a fascinating topic to me, because I'm planning my first layout since I was a kid. As a kid, my Dad and I started 3 4 x 8 HO layouts, and I started one N scale 2 x 4 layout.

What they lack in interest, they make up for in simplicity. Not just simplicity of construction (which isn't a big deal to me - I love going hog-wild with the table saw), but also in simplicity of handling.

I think shelf and non-4x8 style layouts require more dedication to the hobby. For example, with a 4 x 8, your garage "workspace" could be turned into your "model railroad space". If you have to build a bookshelf that your wife asks you to build, you say, "no problem - it will take me 5 minutes to shove this 4 x 8 layout outside...", etc.

Or, say you need to lube up your mountain bike - no problem, give the 4 x 8 a shove out the garage door, and you're all over the bike.

4 x 8's, being one solid "unit", are very easily movable. Although the solid piece may be more "bulky" than a modular shelf layout, shoving it from here to there in the garage is much easier.

I'm sort of prejudiced in that I look at 4 x 8 layouts and think "unsophisticated", etc. But I wish I didn't think that way. Because they are practical as heck. Maybe I've just read one too many Tony Koester articles, so I have a bias against them.

I will most likely build a 2 x 8 foot shelf layout, with anunscenicked return loop, because then I'll have the "look" and ease of reach, etc. that a shelf layout has, but then my unscecking return loop (one oval that goes around my back as I operate) will have the "shove it around-ability" that a 4 x 8 has.

As for cuyama's pics above - I think it's obvious which is more fun to operate. But I'll ask you this: which is more practical if your mother in law needs to stay at your house for 6 months?

(with all due respect, I love Cuyama's website, his designs, etc.).

I really think the difference between a 4 x 8 and a non-4x8 is in the amount of dedication you must have to the hobby, in terms of your living space, and carpentry. (I love the carpentry aspect, it's the living space aspect I wrestle with).

For some background, I get 1/2 of the garage to use "as I please". My wife gets the other half, which she uses to park the "family car" i.e., the nicer vehicle (my pickup gets the driveway).

So I have about a 10 x 20ft space in the garage. My drums are often set up in there, and I always want to have the space to do that. I also don't want to duck under a train track to get to the drums, or to set them up / tear them down, etc.

So this leaves me with about 10 x 12 for model railroad space, as well as workbench, table saw, shop vac, yadda yadda yadda....

I'm contemplating a 4 x 8 in the "shop" area. It could nicely divide the "shop" area from the "non-shop" area.

(keep in mind I've been anti- 4 x 8 since about high school - the last time I had a layout). But man, they're practical in so many ways!

(EDIT: If I ever were to build a 4 x 8, I would definately have a "backdrop divider" down the center of the layout, or more towards one side, with the other side used for staging, or a scenicked yard).

And another thing, does anyone remember pictures of Aggrojones old layout? I think it was a 4 x 8, or something similar, and it was georgeous!

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan
I think shelf and non-4x8 style layouts require more dedication to the hobby. For example, with a 4 x 8, your garage "workspace" could be turned into your "model railroad space".
<snip>
As for cuyama's pics above - I think it's obvious which is more fun to operate. But I'll ask you this: which is more practical if your mother in law needs to stay at your house for 6 months?

Dude, if you make your Mother-in-law stay in the garage for six months, I'll think you'll have bigger problems than where to put the layout.

BH

[Anonymous]

The mother in law example was totally random (but hey, you never know... I actually like my mother in law, and there's actually zero chance of that happening, but you catch my drift - 4 x 8's are easy to move around).

I'm currently working on an L-shaped design. Trying to fit it into an 8 x 8 space. It's not easy so far...

[Anonymous]

to resolve this issue. take a really large saw. cut out the centre/right four sqaure feet and add it to the side.... dog bone with an industial district....works for me

[SimRacin40]

If anything,when you build a 4x8,you can always have a track leading off for if you ever decide to expand on your layout,which could always happen. Personally if someone wants to do a 4x8,let them.

[BRAKIE]

Guys,I have advocated for years that a 4x8 layout beats no layout and I will continue to pu***hat thought as long as I live. I fully believe there are far more 4x8s in this hobby then the basement or room size empires we all dream about and see in magazines.I feel there is probably less round the walls layouts as well as many people doesn't want to attach bracing to the walls of their homes in the event they would need to sell the house.
Many of you may recall I prefer a industrial switching layout above all other types.However ask yourself this..Would you be contended switching cars for 1-11/2 hours remembering that switching cars can become boring after awhile and not being able to set back and watch a train roll? It takes deep dedication to the industrial switching layout far more then the majority of the modelers have for the switching types of layouts so,for many its a 4x8 or no layout..

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Guys,I have advocated for years that a 4x8 layout beats no layout and I will continue to pu***hat thought as long as I live. I fully believe there are far more 4x8s in this hobby then the basement or room size empires we all dream about and see in magazines.I feel there is probably less round the walls layouts as well as many people doesn't want to attach bracing to the walls of their homes in the event they would need to sell the house.
Many of you may recall I prefer a industrial switching layout above all other types.However ask yourself this..Would you be contended switching cars for 1-11/2 hours remembering that switching cars can become boring after awhile and not being able to set back and watch a train roll? It takes deep dedication to the industrial switching layout far more then the majority of the modelers have for the switching types of layouts so,for many its a 4x8 or no layout..

Why do you associate non-4 x8 with non-continous running? Ceratinly a non-4x8 can run continuously. Look at Byron's example above.

[BRAKIE]

Good morning Chip..Again you didn't understand this part of my reply:I feel there is probably less round the walls layouts as well as many people doesn't want to attach bracing to the walls of their homes in the event they would need to sell the house..What part of that don't you understand? I didn't mention those that can't because they rent.I thought we was discussing the evils of 4x8s not advocating round the walls layouts which I also advocate if possible.After all you 4x8 bashers just had to start bashing 4x8s in order to get your closed mind ideas across while not understanding the need for 4x8s layouts by unknown thousands of modelers for many reasons.
Again a 4x8 layout BEATS NO LAYOUT! What is so hard to understand that?

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: "Again a 4x8 layout BEATS NO LAYOUT! What is so hard to understand that?"

I understand, and the same anolgogy hold's true for a 1'X2' board - which is really a pretty POOR excuse for building ANYTHING! I suppose that a house that leaks is better than NO house at all, but by how much?

LARRY: A few questiones ...
1. Have you ever BUILT a 4X8?
2. Do you still OPERATE on it?
3.How much SPACE does it take up?

NEWS FLASH: A 4X8 requires access 'aisles', and 3' is barely enough for two people to 'squeeze' by (try it on a doorway).

If using the 'Aisleway's for the layout, with 4X8 for PEOPLE, takes up identical space, WHY do people REALLY build 4X8'S? (You know the answer).


Larry, EVERY layout has limitation's - but then so does it's owner. Do I really need to expound?


CARRfan:: get some graph paper and draw your 10X12 space then fit a 3X8 yard with 2 staggered dog bones (long/short) for 22" loop return's ; OR 1X8 sides and rear with 4' 'Gate.

As I remember, A SET OF DRUMS occupy's 10X12 on a bandstand. You may have to do what OUR drummer's did - keep them packed in the car.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Good morning Chip..Again you didn't understand this part of my reply:I feel there is probably less round the walls layouts as well as many people doesn't want to attach bracing to the walls of their homes in the event they would need to sell the house..What part of that don't you understand? I didn't mention those that can't because they rent.I thought we was discussing the evils of 4x8s not advocating round the walls layouts which I also advocate if possible.After all you 4x8 bashers just had to start bashing 4x8s in order to get your closed mind ideas across while not understanding the need for 4x8s layouts by unknown thousands of modelers for many reasons.
Again a 4x8 layout BEATS NO LAYOUT! What is so hard to understand that?

Reread my post above and you'll see that I addressed all this before.

I don't hate 4 x 8's--I have one.

Around the walls layouts do not have to be attatched to the walls. They can be free-standing. They can be built in modules for easy moving.

They can have return loops for continuous running.

Saying athat having a 4 x 8 layout is better than no layout is like selling someone a Yugo because they don't have a lot of room in their garage when they can have an Mini-cooper. It's simply a better option for the space.

[ocalicreek]

A couple more thoughts...apparantly nothing in my first response wasn't controversial enough for a reply...or maybe it's because I only have 7 posts. Or maybe because my situation (read my previous post) is an actual scenario where a 4x8 trumps an around the walls layout. Anyway,

An advantage a 4x8 has over a round the walls layout in a comparably sized room (say 10x12 - one large, deep scene can be viewed all at once, allowing for interesting flexibility in scenic composition. Think F&SM style city scenery with a Belt Line running around/through/under buildings, over murky rivers and down streets. Small steam or diesel switchers and 40' cars could do well in such a setting and the tight curves would look right at home. No need for half buildings or shallow relief flats squeezed between the wall and the tracks.

Maybe a great misconception or false assumption when planning a 4x8 is trying to make it a collection of linked linear scenes. Admittedly, we modelers do use selective compression in turning often long, straight railroads into curving railroads. And, I agree with an above post that one can put a divider down the middle lengthwise to get two distinct scenes. But again this is linear thinking applied to a loop setting. Not bad or wrong, but limited if it's the only option considered.

Now - to bat for the other team, around the walls designs may be better for folks in wheelchairs or with mobility restrictions. Would a gate or duckunder be a problem? I don't know. But folks who aren't in a wheel chair seem to either love them or hate them, depending on how well they're constructed. I've seen some that are flawless, and others quite flawed - gates, that is.

IMHO, if a person at all has an inkling that maybe, just maybe they'd enjoy just sitting back and watching a train run, or using it as a test track or break-in course for locos, then what's the harm in building a 4x8 primarily as a point to point with a staging tracks and a destination with a large industry, and yes, even an interchange with ALSO a link to allow continuous running - or maybe a line heading off to that other railroad which might make an appearance to spot its interchange traffic?

I agree with the above posters that it's up to the folks in this hobby with some experience to kindly share when asked or write good articles for the various magazines (like Don Spiro's recent series in RMC - what sounds like a great around the walls layout).

However, I have to disagree with this:

>Saying athat having a 4 x 8 layout is better than no layout is like selling someone a >Yugo because they don't have a lot of room in their garage when they can have an Mini->cooper. It's simply a better option for the space.

My first car was an old Volvo that my folks bought new and had hung onto. The tires were nearly bald, it had no AC, it was a faded mustard yellow, with 4 on the floor. It was a tank and a great first car for a teenager. I graduated to a Honda Accord, again, a used car but definately nicer. Will I ever own a really nice luxury car? Probably not on my salary.

Space isn't the only consideration. Skill level, patience, the influence of other modelers (or lack thereof), being able to follow a plan in MR or some other planning book and arrive at a successful first layout, all these and more come into play. When my son is old enough to have his own HO (or N if he chooses...I guess) trains then will I rush out and buy the latest highly detailed steamer with sound, or a nice, forgive me, train set with a loco, a few cars, and a loop of track? Will I let him play with his Dad's trains (er, run his Dad's model railroad, sorry) or will he get his own layout?

My first layout was a loop...not sure if it was 4x8, probably was...on a tabletop painted green and a few plasticville structures. I never got bored watching the trains go around. I'd hunker down next to the track and watch them at eye level, from different vantage points around the layout. It was even more fun at night, especially when we got a tunnel. Then the anticipation of watching the headlight of that Athearn Pennsy F7 light up all in its path until it came around to where I was at was just thrilling. I hope I never lose that sense of joy just watching a train, no matter how much I learn about operations, or how many rivets to count, or the correct door and ends for certain types of box cars. That's where so many start out. Can they experience that on an around the walls layout? Sure. Is it always as practical or realistic an option as a 4x8, No.

Ocalicreek

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cuyama

Let me say first that I don't actually hate the 4X8 -- but I wi***he commercial press would discuss the alternatives.

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER
If you put one 4 ft end against the wall the 12 feet reduces to 10 feet while leaving adequate access from the sides.
<snip>
This means that you can make it work with an 8x10 ft room.

You can also make a more interesting alternative work in an 8X10 room. This one needs a little work on access, but just for consideration.



'nuff said

I wasn't trying to make a value judgement. My point was that a 10x12 space is not required for a 4x8 layout, you can make it work in an 8x10 space.

For the two you drew I would chose the 4x8, because the other one has serious access problems in the two lobes - making it very difficult to build and maintain. It also allows no access to any closet that you might have.

Enjoy
Paul

[Pruitt]

This horse has not only been beaten to death, it's been pummeled past the point of even being hamburger!!!! [:o)]

4X8 layouts will always be around, if for no other reason than that's the most commonly available size of plywood sheets.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

4X8 layouts will always be around, if for no other reason than that's the most commonly available size of plywood sheets.

That's exactly why I have one. I wanted a place for my son to run trains while I figured out what I wanted in a basement layout so I grabbed a 4x8 sheet of plywood, built a table and I'm still building on it--a two year side track.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ocalicreek

A couple more thoughts...apparantly nothing in my first response wasn't controversial enough for a reply...or maybe it's because I only have 7 posts. Or maybe because my situation (read my previous post) is an actual scenario where a 4x8 trumps an around the walls layout. Anyway,

You can't take the fact that no one responded personally. Maybe it is so easy for someone to respond to a previous thread and side step yours a couple times untill it gets buried. IT's very easy to get your comment lost. Happens to me all the time. It is frustrating sometimes, but part of the nature of this type of forum.

QUOTE: An advantage a 4x8 has over a round the walls layout in a comparably sized room (say 10x12 - one large, deep scene can be viewed all at once, allowing for interesting flexibility in scenic composition. Think F&SM style city scenery with a Belt Line running around/through/under buildings, over murky rivers and down streets. Small steam or diesel switchers and 40' cars could do well in such a setting and the tight curves would look right at home. No need for half buildings or shallow relief flats squeezed between the wall and the tracks.

Maybe a great misconception or false assumption when planning a 4x8 is trying to make it a collection of linked linear scenes. Admittedly, we modelers do use selective compression in turning often long, straight railroads into curving railroads. And, I agree with an above post that one can put a divider down the middle lengthwise to get two distinct scenes. But again this is linear thinking applied to a loop setting. Not bad or wrong, but limited if it's the only option considered.

All along I've tried to distingish betwen the sophisticated modeler who choses a 4 x 8 to acheive a specific result with the newbee who chooses a 4 x 8 because he has 6 Atlas Track Plans and the "easy" one is a 4 x 8.

QUOTE:
Now - to bat for the other team, around the walls designs may be better for folks in wheelchairs or with mobility restrictions. Would a gate or duckunder be a problem? I don't know. But folks who aren't in a wheel chair seem to either love them or hate them, depending on how well they're constructed. I've seen some that are flawless, and others quite flawed - gates, that is.

IMHO, if a person at all has an inkling that maybe, just maybe they'd enjoy just sitting back and watching a train run, or using it as a test track or break-in course for locos, then what's the harm in building a 4x8 primarily as a point to point with a staging tracks and a destination with a large industry, and yes, even an interchange with ALSO a link to allow continuous running - or maybe a line heading off to that other railroad which might make an appearance to spot its interchange traffic?

I agree with the above posters that it's up to the folks in this hobby with some experience to kindly share when asked or write good articles for the various magazines (like Don Spiro's recent series in RMC - what sounds like a great around the walls layout).

However, I have to disagree with this:

>Saying athat having a 4 x 8 layout is better than no layout is like selling someone a >Yugo because they don't have a lot of room in their garage when they can have an Mini->cooper. It's simply a better option for the space.

My first car was an old Volvo that my folks bought new and had hung onto. The tires were nearly bald, it had no AC, it was a faded mustard yellow, with 4 on the floor. It was a tank and a great first car for a teenager. I graduated to a Honda Accord, again, a used car but definately nicer. Will I ever own a really nice luxury car? Probably not on my salary.

Space isn't the only consideration. Skill level, patience, the influence of other modelers (or lack thereof), being able to follow a plan in MR or some other planning book and arrive at a successful first layout, all these and more come into play.

I'm not sure what your argument against the Yugo analogy is. However, the only difference is skills between the the 4 x 8 and the around the room is the ability to cut a piece of plywood and the lumber yard will do that for 25 cents a cut. I guess another skill would be getting the thing level, but now they make those cool lasers.

QUOTE: When my son is old enough to have his own HO (or N if he chooses...I guess) trains then will I rush out and buy the latest highly detailed steamer with sound, or a nice, forgive me, train set with a loco, a few cars, and a loop of track? Will I let him play with his Dad's trains (er, run his Dad's model railroad, sorry) or will he get his own layout?

My first layout was a loop...not sure if it was 4x8, probably was...on a tabletop painted green and a few plasticville structures. I never got bored watching the trains go around. I'd hunker down next to the track and watch them at eye level, from different vantage points around the layout. It was even more fun at night, especially when we got a tunnel. Then the anticipation of watching the headlight of that Athearn Pennsy F7 light up all in its path until it came around to where I was at was just thrilling. I hope I never lose that sense of joy just watching a train, no matter how much I learn about operations, or how many rivets to count, or the correct door and ends for certain types of box cars. That's where so many start out. Can they experience that on an around the walls layout? Sure. Is it always as practical or realistic an option as a 4x8, No.

Ocalicreek

[BRAKIE]

Don,You're still fishing and still way off the fish.

[tatans]

So much for "Everyone" hating 4x8's, for every layout larger than 4x8 there must be 500,000 4x8 layouts, so on it goes: 4x8= not big enough, 8x18= not big enough, 24x48=not big enough, when does it end? when you run out of money??(according to some layouts this will never happen) have you actually read of the size of some of theses monster layouts, guys are actually building their houses to accomodate the train stuff, Hooray for 4x8.

[BRAKIE]

Chip,I have built several round the walls layouts and know for a fact those modulars you mention takes up space that may not be available for a layout and will NOT work across a door way unless you want to enter the layout room by a ducking under a modular.
BTW..A 4x8 is not a Yugo by any means. and a poor comparison seeing that a Yogo takes up more space then a 4X8 would..[;)]

[SpaceMouse]

Brakie,

The duck-under is your asumption. I go to great lengths not to have them.

Again with the Yugo thing--you missed the point entirely.

Since, I can't seem seem to say things in a way that is not misinterpreted, I'll conceed. You've worn me down. I'll start collecting a bunch of loops & spurs to email to newbees when they ask for a good layout.

[BRAKIE]

Chip,You conceded to soon..I was about to mark this up as a lost cause due to the bias against the 4x8 layout and those veteran modelers that chooses to design and operate a 4x8 layout due to space reasons and didn't want to attach bracing to their walls or build modulars.Like you I guess my points was misinterpreted as well.Now over the years I have built 4 4x8 layouts and tons of my favorite type of layout-the industrial switching layout.I have even built a N Scale layout on a 36"x 72" hollow core door.Believe it or not I also built a rather interesting industrial switching layout complete with a short run around track on this door when I returned to HO.

BTW..A duck under is not a evil thing in some cases..Our club layout has 4 duck unders that is needed to get to the yard operator pits.

[jecorbett]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

So much for "Everyone" hating 4x8's, for every layout larger than 4x8 there must be 500,000 4x8 layouts, so on it goes: 4x8= not big enough, 8x18= not big enough, 24x48=not big enough, when does it end? when you run out of money??(according to some layouts this will never happen) have you actually read of the size of some of theses monster layouts, guys are actually building their houses to accomodate the train stuff, Hooray for 4x8.

I plead guilty. I built a 48X28 basement and designed the house to go over the top of it.