why does everyone hate 4X8 layouts?

[wjstix]

I think part of it is that a lot of us who've been around awhile know there is probably going to be a point where someone building an HO 4' x 8' layout is going to get frustrated with it due to the layout's inherent limitations (sharp curves especially) and that they'll probably end up chucking it for a different layout - so why not build the second layout first and save time / money / effort ??

BTW I suppose scale should enter into this...if I had to start all over from square one on a new layout and only had room for a 4 x 8, I'd be tempted to go down to N scale or even Z, so I could still run longer trains and use fullsize passenger cars etc.

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jcmark611



The real problem with 4x8s now is you cannot model today's equipment on it.

How about GP38s,GP38-2s,GP40,GP40-2,GP50s,B23-7s and other such common 4 axle units aren't these part of todays railroading? If you think all these kids see is pig/stack trains I highly suggest putting some time in trackside and watch the show.[:D]

[oleirish]

Boy what a change on this forum,A while back the subject came up about 4X8's and someone on here called them toy train layouts not model railroads,after seeing the links Brakie posted,I would not call them TOY TRAINS,nice work Brakie.and as stated a 4X8 is better than sitting around talking about it and having no Idea what thay are talking about!!!Agreed around the wall is good but not everyone has the room.

JIM

[Anonymous]

yep, around here its gp-38s and boxcars, and thats it.

[Anonymous]

i can run a 6axle Athearn AC4400 sucessfully on my 18" (sharp) curves, freight cars much over 50' don't work the greatest- but i've run a 62' reefer sucessfully on these curves- it only derails if there are a lot of cars behind it- i suppose my biggest gripe is sharp curves- a 4'x8' has to have short trains but i run 20 car trains on my 4'x12' and it looks okay

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Itsed65
[
Sure more room would be nice, but its all about making the most of the space that you have!

ed

VERY true ! More "new" people should heed this and build a layout, instead of just dreaming about the one they hope to have. I have to laugh when a train magazine does an article on a "small layout", and it ends up being 3 times larger than mine. If you model a urban or city setting, and keep sidings to a minimum, it will give you enough to keep you busy for a long time...and provide a great learning experiance as well. Joe

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE
[
How about GP38s,GP38-2s,GP40,GP40-2,GP50s,B23-7s and other such common 4 axle units aren't these part of todays railroading? If you think all these kids see is pig/stack trains I highly suggest putting some time in trackside and watch the show.[:D]

Those are great locomotives but finding them on the head of road train today is getting more and more rare. In fact, while I was a conductor and engineer for CSX I rarely remember having 4 axle power on the train, unless we were going to set it out for a local to use.

I know that 4 axle power still exsists and is still used by Class 1 but, mostly on locals and branches. Not terribly enduring to youngsters but, maybe that is a poll we could have for the younger members of our board.

But like I said, if you like 4x8s then build away. In fact I actually am going to go out and buy the new MRR just for the article on the 4x8 railroad.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: [i]Originally posted by jcmark611

I know that 4 axle power still exsists and is still used by Class 1 but, mostly on locals and branches.

A 4 by 8 can be a good representation of a branch line or industrial.

[Anonymous]

BNSF has somewhere around 200-300 gp38-2's and about 1,500 Dash9-44cw's- so you can see most people wil want to run a few 6-axle locomotives to be prototypical

[Anonymous]

This got me to thinking about some of the nasty-grams published in the letters to the editor section of RMC and MR back in the 1960's. Hate would be putting it mildly.

[brothaslide]

Personally, I would love to have the time, money, and space to construct a "super" layout but a 4 x 8 or a module is more practical for me. Bottom line - I have nothing againts a 4 x 8 layout but I would like a huge layout. . .

[trainfreek92]

I am building a 4x8 layout with a 36x80 door extension. my original plan was to have just a 4x8 but wanted more space so.......... i have a good chunk of the basement for my railroad so it really does not matter 2 me if it is inpractical. i would build a bigger layout but just do not have the funds.

[Dayliner]

As some of you have suggested, part of this is the old "continuous-run vs point-to-point" debate. My present layout began as a 2x6 switcher and expanded to (part way) round the walls. I've enjoyed building and operating it, but the "mainline" run is too short for serious running--it's still a glorified switching layout. The 4x8 guys have it all over us round-the-wallers because they can set up some continuous running fairly quickly--and that helps to maintain interest in the early stages of building a layout. There were times in the early days when I would have loved just to watch the trains run. We're moving to a new house next month with a much bigger train room, and I plan to build a bigger "round-the-wall" with a longer run--but I'm also going to be thinking about how to incorporate a continuous-run feature into the track plan.

[John Busby]

Hi all
Full size passenger cars??
So the 3 compartment 4wh coaches I use are not full size
coaches then[?]
In spite of them being reasonably accurate
models of 4wh caledonian railway coaches.
They are one of the limitations I accepted to get a decent 8X4 layout
I would have used Stevenson's Rocket and coaches if I had to to get a layout that would fit in the space I had because a small railway is better than none.
I also think a small layout is more challenging than having space for a decent sized dream layout
regards John

[Anonymous]

Hello all. I've just finished reading through this thread and just want to put in my 2 cents. I don't mind the 4x8 in fact I agree with some of you that at least you have a layout and your having fun. Isn't that the point? What it comes down to is time, space and money. True the space a 4x8 takes up can better be used for a around the wall or a U shape but to each his own. Someone a few post back suggested loping off the corners and reattaching them. In my view this eliminates the thing that most 4x8's have in common which is the track is perpendicular to the edges. Avoiding this can make the 4x8 much more enjoyable to view and operate.

[Anonymous]

I dont know what all the fuss is about with 4x8 with enough size i have a 4x8 and it has a downtown section 6-10 buildings 5 sidings yes five (can hold 7-9 cars each) a roadhouse( holds 1 loco at a time), a huge lake, a waterfall, a park a dead forest and a major road running through it, u just have to know what to do with it and how to do it right, i can run my dash 9, 6 wheel round the track at full speed without derails on a modified 18" radius, lets see on track right now i have a 7 car coal, 12 car impack, 8 car boxcar and 6 locos from sidings to roundhouse

[rolleiman]

I was at a train show once in Columbus Ohio (I think, been awhile) where a guy had a 4x8 switchback layout. Basically, it looked like 3x8 feet of Timesavers stacked one behind the other.. The other 12 inches was building backdrops.. This May have been a module from a larger layout but it could be run as a stand alone 4x8. He had 3 or 4 freight cars on the layout and one locomotive. There had to be 25 or 30 turnouts on this thing, all controled by ground throws.. He could litteraly spend over an hour moving cars from front to back with the various puzzles he could set up.. Was it a realistic arrangement?? Probably not but If THAT isn't enough Operation for somebody,then most basement empires wouldn't please them either.

[ondrek]

I have room for a larger layout. If i really really wanted too. But I choose to go with a 4x8 because with that size, I know that i will actually finish it.

Also, I find that having yourself confined, brings out a more creative design, it makes you think harder and is more of a challenge.

I have my 4x8 and when thats done, I will return back to my 4x2 with continuous running.

I Found that I have plenty of varity in my 4x8. there is continuous running. some switching if i feel like it. and a point to point logging spur with plenty of room left over for wide corn fields and a town with a center green.
http://www.vermontel.net/~kevin_ondre/HO%20Train/CMVTRR7_4x8.jpg
http://www.vermontel.net/~kevin_ondre/HO%20Train/CMVTRR7_4x8_05.jpg

Plus my 5yr old son thinks its very cool and he's the real reason for building it anyhow.

Kevin

[Adelie]

Well, I see another distinction. A few people have voiced satisfaction in having a layout finished. But one of the wierd things about this hobby is that most layouts are never finished, including those where everthing is completed. The owner then decides to redo a section of it to improve upon it in some way. The allure of this hobby to some is the building. Dreaming up something, putting the idea down on paper (or 1s and 0s on a hard drive), constructing and then detailing.

Maybe part of this round of the debate involves where people fall on this particular issue. Do you eagerly look forward to the day your layout is finished, or do you eagerly look forward to the day when you start on the work to redesign and rebuild a "perfectly good" 2x6 section of your layout?

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jcmark611

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE
[
How about GP38s,GP38-2s,GP40,GP40-2,GP50s,B23-7s and other such common 4 axle units aren't these part of todays railroading? If you think all these kids see is pig/stack trains I highly suggest putting some time in trackside and watch the show.[:D]

Those are great locomotives but finding them on the head of road train today is getting more and more rare. In fact, while I was a conductor and engineer for CSX I rarely remember having 4 axle power on the train, unless we were going to set it out for a local to use.

I know that 4 axle power still exsists and is still used by Class 1 but, mostly on locals and branches. Not terribly enduring to youngsters but, maybe that is a poll we could have for the younger members of our board.

But like I said, if you like 4x8s then build away. In fact I actually am going to go out and buy the new MRR just for the article on the 4x8 railroad.

Here's looking out my front window at work.

[BRVRR]

My BRVRR layout is 4 x 10. It is set up in a 10' 6" x 9' 6" 'spare 'bedroom'. The train table is mounted on rollers which run on tracks mounted on the walls. Thus, I can pull the table away from the back wall and 'duck under' to the back side for operations and maintenance. I have a double tracked main line, a three track engine facility, a yard with two long tracks (7-9 cars each), a four siding industrial area, a long siding for the grain elevator and a reverse loop. I can run 6-wheeled-truck SD40-2s, FP45s, Alco PAs, E8s and 4-8-4, 2-8-2 and 4-6-4 steamers on both main lines without trouble. Not even the Atlas Snap-Switches give them any trouble. Crowded? Certainly. Satisfying? You bet. My grandson and I can run continuously or switch the sidings, or build trains in the yard and engine facility. Would I like to have a bigger layout? Most certainly. I have racked my brain and RTS trying to work out a practical 'around the walls' layout that would give me all the features I have now. So far no luck. What I have is more entertaining and fun to operate than a dream that might never be constructed.

The Lakeshore Limited passing a slower freight on the BRVRR.[:I]

Dreaming is fun, but running trains beats dreaming![:D]
More pictures and a track plan on my website, link is in my signature. Enjoy.[:D]

[BRJN]

There are times when you want to play with the trains. A switching layout is good for this. There are also times (like me right now) when you want to just sit back and watch the trains go on and on. There is no way to loop an HO scale train in 2x6 feet, curses. And we will not discuss the fact that my unheated garage with layout is sub-freezing at the moment...

[Anonymous]

the fun thing about MRRing is you are NEVER finished- there is always something else you could do to your layout- i agree a small layout would be more complete and posssibly more detailed beacause if you have a smaller area to work with you will spend more time scenicing a 4'x8' than a 4'x8' section of a huge layout-why so? well if all you have is 4'x8' there won't be pressure that there is so much more to do like there would be if there was 20'x20' to go

[ondrek]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRJN

There is no way to loop an HO scale train in 2x6 feet, curses.

no way to loop an HO in 2x6? I HAVE a 2'x4' with continuous running.

here is the proof:
http://www.vermontel.net/~kevin_ondre/HO%20Train/2x4%20layout%2014_800x600.jpg
Now, having this, and if you look you can see that the radi is actually LESS than 12"
I didnt fini***his layout. as I needed the turouts for the 4x8 that I started for my son.
this is how far i got before I switched focus:
http://www.vermontel.net/~kevin_ondre/HO%20Train/DSCN0007_800x600.jpg
what can I get to run on this?
0-4-0's the one in the picture is the AHM/Riverossi 0-4-0 with tender, drawbar extension not required.
0-6-0's with a slightly extended draw bar.
23' cars

So, if you want continous running in 2' wide, you can do it, BUT you are limited to the engine types and rolling stock. thas all though.

Kevin

[ondrek]

I forgot to mention that the 0-4-0 will do the radi that leads into the building too, and that radi is well, not really sure, but 6" is my guess. with that radi, the tender will not work though so if you have a dockside 0-4-0 you can do anything really. that was my plan, two trains on this, the 0-6-0 ran around bringing goods in, and a 0-4-0 would pick up the car, pull it to the siding and push it into the bulding, then get the empty from the other line in the samebuilding and put it back on the main line for the 0-6-0 to take off to the rest of the world. If you have doubts of this working, I do have a 10meg 40sec video that shows the 0-4-0 going from the main up to the siding and into the two lines that go into the building.
I also have vids of the two trains running the main line loop no tenders attached, in the vids though, but i did do tenders no on video.

Kevin

[jecorbett]

I really think you can get the most from a 4X8 by putting a full length double sided backdrop down the middle. Now instead of a race track oval, you have a shelf layout with two 2X4 sections. You can have two towns, a town and a rural area, or even use one side as a staging yard for the other. You can operate it like a switching layout with the added bonus of being able to do continuous running when you want.

[Anonymous]

You could do a layout of two 4x8s in an L shape. This has worked for me.

[Anonymous]

Try two 4x8s in an L shape. Its worked for me

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jecorbett

I really think you can get the most from a 4X8 by putting a full length double sided backdrop down the middle. Now instead of a race track oval, you have a shelf layout with two 2X4 sections. You can have two towns, a town and a rural area, or even use one side as a staging yard for the other. You can operate it like a switching layout with the added bonus of being able to do continuous running when you want.

Sometimes I agree with you. It makes sense from an operational point of view. Other times I look at seeing a more grand landscaping scheme.

I like both ops and railfanning. Ceratinly the backdrop down the center has a lot of possibilities for both. I would probably go that route if I built another 4x8--which I won't.

[waltersrails]

i like 4x8 its basic and easy for all most any house. some times isn't always bigger is better. As long as you have some space to have a layout. That sounds good enough for me.