These Prices are insane!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831
Over the past 10-15 years we have seen a progressive alteration in the way the hobby is constituted and as a result it is self destructing from both ends.

Many of the newer hobbyists lack the time and skills always taken for granted by those who built layouts, structures, cars, and motive power in the past. The new hobbyist's cry is, "Give it all to me RTR!" In doing so the prices absolutely have to rise, often dramatically.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, the manufacturers have realized that there is a small but moneyed fraction of hobbyists that will pay almost any price for their toys. The manufacturers have aimed limited runs of RTR items so as to sell them out immediately to these folks and maximize profits. Good for the company's bottom line but not for hobbyists. In doing so, they progressive force out those who can not afford the new ever higher prices...currently, or at least soon to be, the majority of today's model railroaders.

This situation is, I'm afraid, very much hastening the ultimate demise of our hobby.

CNJ831

Once again, CNJ, you've hit a home run - you've summed up the situation perfectly. The manufacturers are increasingly catering to a small number of people with deep pockets who want the latest limited-run RTR thing NOW - while forgetting the average hobbyist. This may gain them large profits in the short term, but in the long run, it will not be healthy for the hobby if they continue to price people out of the market and shrink their customer base.

[Anonymous]

Some one voiced opinions about the people posting these types of complaints probably does not support their Local Hobby Shop. You are right I do not. But I can not be blamed for that. There is no local hobby shop to support. The closest one is 90 Miles away. And Its junk. THe next closes one is 130 Miles away and its junk to.

James.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jsalemi

No, I'm saying that the cost of fuel is a factor, and can't be discounted because the price of oil is subsidized/regulated by the government in China. Labor costs are still the biggest part of shipping (and just about any business), but the cost of oil is more of an influence than some folks here have given it credit for, especially when it rises almost 50% in less than a month. Those container ships drink up a lot of it, so a 50% price increase can have a serious impact on shipping costs, and not just for hobby stuff. Heck, look at what it's doing to the airline industry.

Hold it right there. That container ship is moving a hell of alot of widgets. That ship does not use very much oil. In fact.. I bet when it arrives at that port and it becomes necessary to deliver 1000 boxes (Or whatever the total is on the ship) to points in the USA.. then you are talking some expense involved.

If I order a engine at 400.00 equippted with sound and DCC like I did with the T-1 from PCM this year; alot of that money will disaapear into the markups and taxes before any of it makes it back to the orginal factory that made the durn thing along with 100,000 other copies of the model.

Fuel is CHEAP as long you can write it off to taxes as an expense of doing business.

Now we need to have a payroll for the crew, insurance policies for the ship, lading and required fees for ports. On to parts and fixings to maintain the ship and finally but not least.. the training and advancement of everyone from Captian all the way down to the Garbage man on that ship.

Then you gotta think about the land connection between the factory who needs raw materials, skilled workers and costs to run the buildings etc... the trucking to the port, onto the ship, sail across the ocean off the ship then shipping to the LHS a year late and into hands of lucky people who pre-ordered the item on deadline while the rest scrambles to find the few copies that have not sold. And figure in all of those people involved in moving that product. Lastly but not least is the risk of loss in transit. Not all of the widgets are going to arrive 100% damage free.

Ebay then sells the items at prices approaching twice retail (Go look at some walters kits that are retired and you will see where I am coming from) then come here and talk expense.

When I hook that Reading T-1 ($400 MSRP) to the set of Walthers Heavyweights (8 at approx 35- each) I have already spent pretty much the total annual allotment for the hobby this year. Then I still need the track, Scenery (Something like 10 dollars every 7 shakes in the small bottles), electronics, lumber, labor, electricity to run everything.. etc etc etc.. that trainset gets expensive.

But the hobby is not going to face ruin. Not as long as there are plenty of people willing to spend a thousand dollars or more for a nice trainset and additional money to keep the whole thing going.

The hobby of trains is cheap compared to classic muscle cars that went from 500 dollars for a rusted Ford with a 351 block to about 5,000 bare minimum for one that actually turns over. Then when you finish restoring that old car to a beauty worthy of orginal factory showroom condition or even beyond it... you are going to be 20,000 in the hole.

Did you enjoy the hobby? I hope so.

[edkowal]

At least a part of the reason why hobbyists are feeling an increase in the price of their hobby has to do with their increasing sophistication.

I can't think of anyone I know that started out in this hobby spending large amounts of money for locomotives and accurately rendered rolling stock. Rather, a typical situation is that the beginner starts out with a train set, whether it be prepackaged, or put together by a knowledgeable hobby shop owner.

As you grow in this hobby, your tastes change. What you are willing to accept in terms of detailing and performance becomes increasing sophisticated. With that comes an increase in the price charged per item. Quality costs money.

When items come out that the majority of modelers think are not worth the money asked, that producer either learns, or goes out of business. This happens all the time. Any year, there are manufacturers that are no longer around. I'm sure that if you think about it, you'll come up with quite a few. This doesn't mean that the hobby is dying, though. What it means is that producer misjudged the market in some way. Remember, most of the outfits that produce what we buy are very small. Only a few are 500 pound gorillas. For instance, I believe Grandt Line has fewer than twenty employees. It may even be fewer than ten. The same with major producers of decals, and many of the kits that we all love to lust after.

With the really small, one or two person businesses, if you make one or two costly mistakes, you can't afford to keep the company going.

If the prices that you see are truly insane, no one will pay them. Based on that, the prices will then come down. However, this is not the first time that this complaint has been voiced.

When transistor throttles first came out, they were very much more expensive than power packs. Those prices were insane relative to what people were used to as well. The same with the PFM sound system. But prices were readjusted due to economies of scale, competition, and other market forces. Now, few model railroaders use a power pack, and transistor throttles are in the process of being eclipsed by DCC.

All the sophistication costs money.

-Ed

[grayfox1119]

The people who cry doom & gloom are those who really don't have an understanding of the size of this hobby worldwide, not just America. They also don't have a clue of how markets work, they speak from feelings and prices they see, and LHS that are going out of business, and from their own inability for whatever reason, to afford the things that they want, so they do what so many people do, blame everyone else but themselves. Do they support their LHS ? More than likely NOT, and then they wonder why they go out of busness. They wonder WHY the LHS charge the prices they do, but they fail to understand that these people need to survive also, their heat/cooling, lights, rent, taxes, water bills, salaries, etc. all go up just like OUR expenses do, so if we do not support THEM, who loses? All of us. I am going to copy a phrase from a great president, and change the wording.......ask not what your MRR hobby can do for you...ask what YOU can do for your hobby.

David T. pass the popcorn please Dave !![2c]

[Anonymous]

Hold on! I need to grab some popcorn...

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Guys,

With all due respect its rather irritating to keep reading the same "doom and gloom" statement about the hobby:

1. Model railroading is self destructing.
2. This is a dying hobby.
3. It will be extinct in a few years with current trends.

Let's see now...........I"m 42 years old). So let me ask myself a question: About when did I start hearing or reading almost identical comments?...........Oh yeah! 1985! 20 YEARS AGO! Good Goobly! You mean the hobby that was supposed to have been dead by 1990 is still going?!"

Let's see: We've got
1. DCC,
2. incredible sound,
3. Intricate detailing on locos "in the box" ,
4. Special lighting effects,
5. Ultra smooth running HO and N locomotives,
6. Ultra Realistic scenery materials,
7. Gorgeous passenger cars,
8. Beautiful Cornerstone and DPM kits that still retail for less than $25........

AND THIS HOBBY IS DYING?

Please forgive my sarcasm, but I have a feeling that when I'm 62, there will still be some that will be making the same predicitions. If I'm around and still a forum member......I'll chime in with a post almost identical to this one.

I've been around the hobby for a long time too and never heard talk that it was failing back in the 1980's. In fact, every indicator back then showed it was expanding rapidly. That is absolutely not the situation today. I have asked repeatedly on this and other forums for even one verifiable indicator of real growth in the hobby, or at least signs of good health. After three years I have yet to be shown a single such solid indicator. However, verifiable evidence of decline abounds and I have posted these in detail many times here and elsewhere. So, FP45, please enlighten us as to how well the hobby is doing with some real facts, won't you? And, incidentally, re your 8 points, numbers 2 through 5, plus 7, have come at a doubling or more of prices in just a few years. #6 has seen no really great changes in recent years. And DPM structure kits go back into the early 1990's and used to cost $6.98 or less. Only the Walthers kits are relatively new.

Far too many hobbyists talk off the top of the heads on these forums about how well the hobby is doing without ever actually going back and examining price evolution, production volumes, and the statistical details of what has been happening through the years, and why it has happened. I've done it and it is a very sobering experience.

CNJ831

[jimrice4449]

Just after WWII the "standard" loocos available in HO were the Varney Dockside 0-4-0 and the Roundhouse SP 0-6-0 at $15 and $30 respectively. They were cast metal w/ (by today's standards) absolutely minimum detail and no vlalve gear. The minimum wage was 75 cents an hour. That's20 hours for the Dockside and 40 hours for the 0-6-0. Figure those time frames at today's wages and then look at the qualitive improvement and it should be obvious that NOW is "the good old days".

[selector]

Wisdom beyond his years. Well said, NSR.

[Anonymous]

For starters, higher prices are good to an extent. When things cost very little we don't appreciate them. When things cost more we make better decisions before buying and we appreciate things better. Sometimes, I wish my $10 that I take with me to the hobby shop would buy 3 or 4 kits instead of just 1, but I have found out that the 1 car I do buy is the car that I really wanted and I learn to really appreciate it a lot more. I want to mention that I am saying all of this while at the same time being a beginner to model railroading who has to pay high prices for the things I want. It doesn't bother me to pay higher prices. If I don't like the prices of something then I just won't buy it. I use a variety of stuff on my layout, I'll use anything from Walthers $30.00 engines up to Kato or Atlas engines that cost $150.00. I think Athearn is really great and I am very happy that they're continuing to produce their kits.

[Anonymous]

You still have cheaper alternatives out there.Athearn is still producing the old blue box.Atlas is releasing thier Trainline.Bachmann has some decent standard line locos showing upYou dont have to have the costliest and the best to have fun in model railroading.If I want something considered high end I wait and see if I can find it at a cheaper price.If I miss out oh well.Ebay is the best place to find good deals on OOP stuff some at half MSRP.I also have a great LHS,I have known the owner for years.I dont understand the inflated prices on some of this stuff either.But the companys have to make a buck to survive.Athearn,while not the most detailed offer good value to the consumer.Those athearn units with the new hex drive are really quiet.I have replaced most of the older motors in my blue box stuff with the hex drives.Really makes a difference.And those motors will last a long time.Wether its a Kato or a Bachmann toy the thing to remember is have fun.This is a hobby,enjoy it within your means,Dan

[icmr]

[banghead][banghead][censored][censored]. I am getting real sick and [censored] tired of everyone bashing Walthers. If you have noticed the A-B sets are at most $325 for DCC and sound and $225.00 for analog. I am happy that Walthers got Life Like. Now I will buy those engines since I did not like Life Like but now that Walthers has them I will get them. It is cheaper than the BLI A-B set I saw today. It was about $450 if I remember right.

I saw that some of you were talking about this being an expensive hobby and you are right. I however, will not buy the athearn BB's because they are no match for the Walthers, Katos, BLI's, Overland, and Athearn Genesis. In my opinion the Athearn RTR engines are in the same category as the BB's and I will not buy them if I can help it. I will buy Kato, Athearn Genesis, BLI, Overland, AND Walthers because they are better quality. Right now I don't even think I will buy any Atlas HO engine but I will buy their N scale engines.

That brings up a good point, Why haven't any of you talked about Atlas having high prices.

They are many reasons that the prices are high. One that I did not see posted here is competition. Just because Walthers is a distibutor doesn't mean that they do not have any competition.

Did I forget to mention that I like kits, I am 17 years old, and I am working on my first layout but I also want quality and detail and that I am willing to pay the price for anything that has the Illinois Central name on it.



ICMR

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[selector]

Prices don't necessarily vary linearly with the rises of the costs associated with the production of the items or of their transport. Instead, it is a FUNCTION of those costs because the relative size of the profit margin must be maintained in absolute dollars with the commensurate inflation associated with the lost buying power of the dollar.

If gas goes up 10%, the costs of the items rises 10% plus in order to maintain the ratio of profit to costs. That accounts for some of the increase in pricing. Also, as someone mentioned above, the market exacts the toll that is tolerated by a sufficient mass of consumers to sustain the widest profit-taking. It is self-regulating, as any system with feedback loops is; when production is high and demand low, stockpiling occurs and prices get slashed for easy sales on ebay. When demand is high and quantities low, prices stay high. If production anticipates demand, prices can stay high to meet a sure thing. After all, if 2000 units are built with an expected profit margin of 26%/unit at the factory, and all units are requested/delivered, whoa...good times!!

[AntonioFP45]

Actually, pretty observant, but that's OK too.

[Curmudgeon]

Clueless.
But that's okay.

[AntonioFP45]

Guys,

With all due respect its rather irritating to keep reading the same "doom and gloom" statement about the hobby:

1. Model railroading is self destructing.
2. This is a dying hobby.
3. It will be extinct in a few years with current trends.

Let's see now...........I"m 42 years old). So let me ask myself a question: About when did I start hearing or reading almost identical comments?...........Oh yeah! 1985! 20 YEARS AGO! Good Goobly! You mean the hobby that was supposed to have been dead by 1990 is still going?!"

Let's see: We've got
1. DCC,
2. incredible sound,
3. Intricate detailing on locos "in the box" ,
4. Special lighting effects,
5. Ultra smooth running HO and N locomotives,
6. Ultra Realistic scenery materials,
7. Gorgeous passenger cars,
8. Beautiful Cornerstone and DPM kits that still retail for less than $25........

AND THIS HOBBY IS DYING?

Please forgive my sarcasm, but I have a feeling that when I'm 62, there will still be some that will be making the same predicitions. If I'm around and still a forum member......I'll chime in with a post almost identical to this one.

Prices are up, but that sure hasn't stopped me from getting some sweet deals on ebay and train shows, while still supporting my LHS in 70+% of my model railroad purchases. If prices get ridiculous.....then that's why many stores have "Layaway" for "budget concious schmucks" like myself . Worked for me when I was a teen and still works for me today.

[Anonymous]

That could change if we see fuel costs rising and not coming down. I know we are going to see a postal increase come the first of the year.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, we are already starting to see inroads into Indai and Pakistan for cheaper labour.

I am in business, in the hobby, and I have watched as the dollar has changed to other countries currency, making my stuff from English-speaking countries cost substantially more, while competitors who had it mass-produced in China were tied to the dollar with their Yuen.

It has always been unrealistic, and now we are getting some adjustment.

BTW, on shipping costs:

How much more does it cost you to mail a locomotive across country now than it did a year ago?
No more, in fact, UPS has gone down.

Fuel hasn't a thing to do with it.
TOC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Curmudgeon

Biggest facor, and it's going to get a lot worse, is the un-locking of the dollar US to the Yuen.
Watch and see.
The costs have been artificially low for a long, long time.

TOC

And hopefully they will start to price themselves out of the market, and MAYBE we can see some onshore production. Hey I can dream a little...can't I?

[Curmudgeon]

Biggest facor, and it's going to get a lot worse, is the un-locking of the dollar US to the Yuen.
Watch and see.
The costs have been artificially low for a long, long time.

TOC

[Anonymous]

No, I'm saying that the cost of fuel is a factor, and can't be discounted because the price of oil is subsidized/regulated by the government in China. Labor costs are still the biggest part of shipping (and just about any business), but the cost of oil is more of an influence than some folks here have given it credit for, especially when it rises almost 50% in less than a month. Those container ships drink up a lot of it, so a 50% price increase can have a serious impact on shipping costs, and not just for hobby stuff. Heck, look at what it's doing to the airline industry.

[Curmudgeon]

Now, granted, this thread is getting long, and it's hard to remember who posted what, but here's the comment that was addressed:
"the price of plastics to make the models, paint, etc. its all related to the price of OIL!"

He didn't address shipping, neither did the responses.

So, let me get this straight, just for the record.
A small plastic half-zero engine (or boxcar) in a container with thousands if not tens of thousands of other items, on a ship with hundreds of like containers........

And the price per unit, you are claiming, jumps that high (once again, per unit) based upon cost of fuel?
How much do you think is charged to move a container?
If you add in oil costs (divided by the hundred or so containers on the ship), and then further spread it out by the possibly tens of thousands of items in the one container, you have empirical data to suggest the cost of oil jumped 4,867.32%?
Really?

I could go further, but hopefully you'll get my drift.

TOC

[Anonymous]

I'm amused by the those who say "stuff is made cheap in China, so oil prices have little effect". Hmm, last time I looked, the stuff didn't swim over from China on its own, and walk down to your LHS. [:)] It has to be shipped, and ships use oil. And the stuff that unloads those ships and puts them on trucks and trains at the docks use oil. And those trucks and trains use oil moving the stuff around the country.

Basic economics -- the cost of something isn't determined only by what it costs to actually make it (materials and labor). Shipping has to be factored in, and that of course includes the labor as well as raw materials there. And of course there's the cost of unpacking the big boxes, sorting the stuff into smaller boxes, and then sending them out to the stores or end purchases. And of course, everyone along the line gets to make a profit, or why be in business to begin with?

So 'made in China' may mean it's cheaper than stuff made in the US, but it doesn't always mean that it's cheap.

[robengland]

None of my locos run quite as beautifully as the Kato, but I have older Athearns that are as smooth as can be, after a little cleaning and lubrication and a TCS M1 decoder. Sure they growl a bit but some are almost quiet. I don't think the newbies have it so bad, at least in HO. My son has some cheapie N scale locos which can only be described as awful

[csmith9474]

As I stated before wholesale is the way to go. It sucks to cut out the LHS, but sometimes I have no choice (especially when BLI finally releases those warbonnet F7s).

[grandeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831
[

This situation is, I'm afraid, very much hastening the ultimate demise of our hobby.

CNJ, with all due respect, I can't help but see a hobby that's light years ahead of where it was in the past.

I do think Walther's is going a bit to far with P2K pricing. I hate to see anyone run prices up more than neccessary (things ain't cheap anymore, prices will rise some), but my biggest coplaint is that younger guys starting out will have a rougher go of it without nicely detailed models at reasonable prices. It's true that on a budget you can detail an Athearn BB loco and it'll look pretty good. Problem is, it'll still run like it did before.

[grandeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Curmudgeon
All this has been fueled to a certain extent by "where is the latest release" mentality, and the ready-to-run crowd that can't build anything themselves.

Some of the crowd with that "mentality" have nearly complete, sceniked railroads and can now enjoy building kits if they so choose... [;)]

[robengland]

Seems we go over this every month or two

If there were a market for cheap stuff the manufacturers would be chasing it. A few still do. Most don't because most American modellers are affluent enough to want to pay for higher quality. No manufacturer is nuts enough to deliberately shrink their market. To suggest they are ALL doing it is just silly. They are doing what businessmen have always done: chasing a buck. Most manufacturers follow a market: they seldom make one.


Walthers price their stuff to protect their real clients, the distribution channel. The fact that Walthers still manage to do quite a nice retail business shows that there is still an excess of money and a dirth of common sense out there. Don't blast Walthers, just buy somewhere else. The only thing I bought from Walthers was their catalog.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rolleiman

QUOTE: Originally posted by easyaces

You guys have to figure that as the model quality goes up, so do the prices! But then you figure in production costs, the price of plastics to make the models, paint, etc. its all related to the price of OIL! Guess who's making the big bucks from all of us ? nuff said!!!!!!

Baloney... It's market driven.. As long as people are willing to pay the price, the distributors are going to charge it.. How many morons do you know that pay $1 for a 20oz bottle of water, flavored or not?? Remember... Evian spelled backwards is NAIVE...[;)]

Sadly, this is very true. Over the past 10-15 years we have seen a progressive alteration in the way the hobby is constituted and as a result it is self destructing from both ends.

Many of the newer hobbyists lack the time and skills always taken for granted by those who built layouts, structures, cars, and motive power in the past. The new hobbyist's cry is, "Give it all to me RTR!" In doing so the prices absolutely have to rise, often dramatically.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, the manufacturers have realized that there is a small but moneyed fraction of hobbyists that will pay almost any price for their toys. The manufacturers have aimed limited runs of RTR items so as to sell them out immediately to these folks and maximize profits. Good for the company's bottom line but not for hobbyists. In doing so, they progressive force out those who can not afford the new ever higher prices...currently, or at least soon to be, the majority of today's model railroaders.

This situation is, I'm afraid, very much hastening the ultimate demise of our hobby.

CNJ831

[Curmudgeon]

Ah, but Ford's take a lickin' and keep on tickin'!

I have a Tudar I bought almost 36 years ago, still runs fine, an F-1 I bought 15 years ago, still runs fine.
The Tudor is a 1950, paid $125 cash.
The F-1 (before there were F-100's) is the most expensive, I paid $350.
I also have a 1949 Willys Wagon, all Ford underneath (3/4 race 50 Merc, Mustang II front end, Mustang rear, T-bird tilt).
I won't tell you what I paid, but less than any of the above.
Nobody says you have to buy new.
Most of the buildings on my railroad are used.
Most needed repair.
But they work.
When you get them cheap enough, you don't worry so much about whacking them into something different.

TOC