These Prices are insane!

[Anonymous]

Hello All,

I have been looking at all the prices in the new Walthers Flyer recently. And have come to the conclusion that if I am going to stay in the hobby, I am going to have to take up scratchbuilding and scavange for used parts or something becasue it seems like Walthers is hell bent on forcing me out of the hobby. Who over there decided that their A,B F3 set is worth $165.00? The shells are only slightly better than old Athearn Blue Box F-7s. (They have "glass" in the windshilds and a correctly shaped nose). I saw them in my hobby shop not on sale for $75.00 and the two AB sets that I hvae I managed to get on sale for $90.00 for the two of them. I noticed they raised prices on alot of other Life-Like stuff as well. ANd with Horizon jacking the Athearn stuff out of sight. All I am left with as far as trains in my price bracket is Accurail.

Is it me or is this hobby going to disintigrate here. I am a die hard hard core model railroad till I die type fellow. But I can not even begin to afford it as it is now. What happened to all the reasonably priced kits? Its all RTR and jacked up sky high. Hopefully plastruct or Evergreen are in good finaincail standing I have big orders to place with the both of them. Guess I can learn how to machine my own parts while I am at it as well.

James.

[loathar]

We had a thread going on this last week. You must have missed it.I won't be buying any of those unless they come down in price. There were some good deals on scenery and other stuff in that flyer though.

[waltersrails]

i would just order off of discounttrainsonline.com very good prices.

[selector]

Considering the cost of fuel, oil base for the plastics, fuel to get the cheaper coal to the blast furnaces for the metals used in them, it's no wonder toys in general are becoming pricey.

Here's a thought...grab what you want while the prices are still stratospheric. They'll be much higher come next year.

[dave9999]

These topics come up from time to time. This is not a broke man's hobby by
any means. It cost money to be involved with model railroading. And people that
can't afford it will likely become frustrated and quit.

The manufacturers know that there are people that will pay their prices... and
there is a market for expensive, detailed equipment. Of course this doesn't
explain the high priced Walthers locos. They are not known for their high quality.

But the big picture is this: Model railroading is an EXPENSIVE hobby. Those who
can't afford it should maybe consider other equipment and scracth building... or
find less expensive hobby. Good luck, Dave

[easyaces]

You guys have to figure that as the model quality goes up, so do the prices! But then you figure in production costs, the price of plastics to make the models, paint, etc. its all related to the price of OIL! Guess who's making the big bucks from all of us ? nuff said!!!!!!

[grayfox1119]

James, that is why we as parents and in my case grandparents, say" stay in school, and get your college education. Just take a good look around you....after WW2, America was the only nation to come out of this war in one piece financially. So for years, our standard of living went ever higher. But now we have many nations that are becoming industrialized. So we have Americans, ON AVERAGE , making $16 and hour, while in China with a population of 1.5 billion people, making $0.16 an hour. Do you see where all the goods coming to America are now made? China, on everything from MRR to clothing to electronics, and soon, cars. And India, as the second most populous nation is right behind China. Where do you think more and more oil is being shipped? To China and India. We only have about 275 million people here in the U.S.
Until these developing countries catch up to us in hourly pay, and this will take DECADES, we are in for a rough ride.
Some say, why can't we get things made in America? The answer is so obvious it's a wonder they don't fall over it, at $16 an hour for labor, vs $0.16 and hour, can we afford the cost of a RTR car made in America for $100 vs $18 to $25 coming from China ( after mark-ups from all the middle guys )
So stay in school, become a doctor, Lawyer, etc. and make $$$$ so that you can afford this hobby, otherwise you are right, you will be doing a lot of scratch building.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by easyaces

You guys have to figure that as the model quality goes up, so do the prices! But then you figure in production costs, the price of plastics to make the models, paint, etc. its all related to the price of OIL! Guess who's making the big bucks from all of us ? nuff said!!!!!!

But I am talking about a re-issiue. Nothing done to it except the price is jacked sky high.

James

[Anonymous]

Keep in mind that Walthers lists the MSRP - Manufacturers' SUGGESTED RETAIL Price in their flyers, so they aren't undercitting their dealers. Use them just as a guideline, and assume you will be paying a lot less at your LHS.

Bob Boudreau

[elauterbach]

Before I started making decent money, when I was in college and grade school, I really shopped hard for bargins and bought used. I still do the same thing, now I am just a little more selective. You can have nice, but you may just have less. This is not a rich man's hobby, you just have to concentrate on what you really want out of this hobby. Even today I shop around a lot and get really good deal, especially on brass these days.
Also, one note about the prices in Walthers' flyer. I never ever pay any attention to them. Walthers is a distributor. They do not want to compete with the hobby stores they do large orders with. This means their prices are higher than you can get at a lot of stores.
Eric

[Anonymous]

One word. Internet.

I buy all of my rolling stock, track, engines, all that stuff on the internet. www.discounttrainsonline.com has a huge selection and good prices. www.trainworld.com has a much more limited selection but the prices cant be beat. And then of course there is Ebay. It takes a little work and a little restraint not to bid higher than you should but you can get some great deals on Ebay. The only things I can think of that i get at the LHS are couplers, trucks, decoders and the occaisonal shaker of scenery material. Not that I want the hobby shops to go out of buissiness or anything but Im not made of money!

[loathar]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Student of Big Sky Blue

QUOTE: Originally posted by easyaces

You guys have to figure that as the model quality goes up, so do the prices! But then you figure in production costs, the price of plastics to make the models, paint, etc. its all related to the price of OIL! Guess who's making the big bucks from all of us ? nuff said!!!!!!

But I am talking about a re-issiue. Nothing done to it except the price is jacked sky high.

James

Yea. I agree. HAS the quality gone up or are these the same old tooling jacked up.As for the oil, these things are probably made in China which has a communist government controlled economy.(not a market driven one like the USA) I would like to see the acctual per unit cost of these things when they leave the plant in China. I think we would all be surprised to see where the price jack is really being tacked on.

[davekelly]

It's amazing that Walther's practice of not undercutting the retail dealers that purchase from them results in Walther's getting slammed. Would it be better if Walthers undercut all retailers that purchase from them and thus harming their business and perhaps causing them to shut down?

[Curmudgeon]

First, now you might be understanding where the term 'Milwaukee Mafia" came from.

Second, NODODY I know buys from Walthers.
You think half-zero is bad, try 1 gauge.

Third, for some of us, the old phrase, "Your dealer HOPES he can get it from Walthers" comes into play.

Fuel and such prices don't have nearly the impact some would like you to believe.
This stuff is made in China for the most part.

One thing is the recent unlocking of Dollar to Yuen.
HOPEFULLY this idiotic "MFN" stuff has stopped and the prices will reflect real-world costs.
The ability of China to lock their currency to Dollar US has put a lot of US Manufacturers out of biz, and made it difficult for English-speaking countries to make stuff competitively.

Look at these costs, and see if the percentage of what you pay NOW of your weekly income is better or worse than 50 years ago.
I do believe you will find for $165 it's far cheaper.

All this has been fueled to a certain extent by "where is the latest release" mentality, and the ready-to-run crowd that can't build anything themselves.

Want an example?
See how many threads there are on "how do I install DCC in such-and-such?"

I run what works for as long as it works.
I haven't purchased any 2 or 3-rail "0" in 15 to 20 years that I can think of. What I have is 100% US made and runs flawlessly (except for the Walthers Tenite wheelsets that go away from time to time).
The #1 gauge stuff, I haven't bought anything NEW in probably 10 years.

There are options to the $165 stuff.
Buy an old Athearn from somebody who has to have the latest, add windows, and run it.

Varney still works, even my multi-sheave-pulley F-3.

The only thing I might buy is a powered Varney multi-sheave pulley metal F-3 "B" unit, but I don't need it.


TOC

[csmith9474]

For my really high dollar stuff, I buy through a wholesale outlet. Generally there is a 30-40% markup at the retail shops, so if you can get your foot in the door with a wholesale type, do it.

[grayfox1119]

If you received 70% of your revenue from the LHS's would you change your strategy and undercut all these LHS's? I think not!!

[MisterBeasley]

But to go back to your original question, we all should be doing more scratchbuilding. It's so much more satisfying to start with nothing and end up with something. Besides that, you end up with something completely unique. Everyone else has nothing more than a "limited production" model.

For locomotives, go look at Trainworld or M.B. Klein. Great prices on the leftovers from previous production runs. I found a P2K Milwaukee GP-9 there for $40.

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by easyaces

You guys have to figure that as the model quality goes up, so do the prices! But then you figure in production costs, the price of plastics to make the models, paint, etc. its all related to the price of OIL! Guess who's making the big bucks from all of us ? nuff said!!!!!!

Baloney... It's market driven.. As long as people are willing to pay the price, the distributors are going to charge it.. How many morons do you know that pay $1 for a 20oz bottle of water, flavored or not?? Remember... Evian spelled backwards is NAIVE...[;)]

Jeff

[Anonymous]

This hobby is shrinking and disappearing. Limited runs and sky high greedy prices are one of the main reasons. Walthers is not going to sell much of the old Like Like with their high pricing.

[davekelly]

It seems that there are quite a few folks here that pin the "high prices" of todays stuff solely on greed - as if the manufacturer/importer could actually make a pretty decent living by placing a $25.00 MSRP on P2K and Kato locomotives. If that is truly the case, then a person should have no problem in convincing a bank to loan them the money needed to start a manufacturing/importing entity to bring such a locomotive to market. If one could do so I dare say the sales volume would be fantastic. The fact that no one has done so pretty much says that the market is pretty well controlling the price. Or is it that Kato, Walthers/LifeLike, BLI, Genesis etc are all conspiring to rip us off to fuel their greed?

It also amuses me that I've actually heard folks slamming the price in the Walthers catalog for some of the Walthers structure kits with a "I can get it cheaper online." Where do they think the internet dealer got the Walthers kit from?

On the other hand, I'm really ticked at the price Ford is charging for their vehicles. I was on Ford's website earlier and could not believe the prices there! I can get the same vehicle with the same options for more than a couple thousand dollars less at the dealer down the street. Ford ain't gonna sell very many vehicles with their high prices.

[Curmudgeon]

Ah, but Ford's take a lickin' and keep on tickin'!

I have a Tudar I bought almost 36 years ago, still runs fine, an F-1 I bought 15 years ago, still runs fine.
The Tudor is a 1950, paid $125 cash.
The F-1 (before there were F-100's) is the most expensive, I paid $350.
I also have a 1949 Willys Wagon, all Ford underneath (3/4 race 50 Merc, Mustang II front end, Mustang rear, T-bird tilt).
I won't tell you what I paid, but less than any of the above.
Nobody says you have to buy new.
Most of the buildings on my railroad are used.
Most needed repair.
But they work.
When you get them cheap enough, you don't worry so much about whacking them into something different.

TOC

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rolleiman

QUOTE: Originally posted by easyaces

You guys have to figure that as the model quality goes up, so do the prices! But then you figure in production costs, the price of plastics to make the models, paint, etc. its all related to the price of OIL! Guess who's making the big bucks from all of us ? nuff said!!!!!!

Baloney... It's market driven.. As long as people are willing to pay the price, the distributors are going to charge it.. How many morons do you know that pay $1 for a 20oz bottle of water, flavored or not?? Remember... Evian spelled backwards is NAIVE...[;)]

Sadly, this is very true. Over the past 10-15 years we have seen a progressive alteration in the way the hobby is constituted and as a result it is self destructing from both ends.

Many of the newer hobbyists lack the time and skills always taken for granted by those who built layouts, structures, cars, and motive power in the past. The new hobbyist's cry is, "Give it all to me RTR!" In doing so the prices absolutely have to rise, often dramatically.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, the manufacturers have realized that there is a small but moneyed fraction of hobbyists that will pay almost any price for their toys. The manufacturers have aimed limited runs of RTR items so as to sell them out immediately to these folks and maximize profits. Good for the company's bottom line but not for hobbyists. In doing so, they progressive force out those who can not afford the new ever higher prices...currently, or at least soon to be, the majority of today's model railroaders.

This situation is, I'm afraid, very much hastening the ultimate demise of our hobby.

CNJ831

[robengland]

Seems we go over this every month or two

If there were a market for cheap stuff the manufacturers would be chasing it. A few still do. Most don't because most American modellers are affluent enough to want to pay for higher quality. No manufacturer is nuts enough to deliberately shrink their market. To suggest they are ALL doing it is just silly. They are doing what businessmen have always done: chasing a buck. Most manufacturers follow a market: they seldom make one.


Walthers price their stuff to protect their real clients, the distribution channel. The fact that Walthers still manage to do quite a nice retail business shows that there is still an excess of money and a dirth of common sense out there. Don't blast Walthers, just buy somewhere else. The only thing I bought from Walthers was their catalog.

[grandeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Curmudgeon
All this has been fueled to a certain extent by "where is the latest release" mentality, and the ready-to-run crowd that can't build anything themselves.

Some of the crowd with that "mentality" have nearly complete, sceniked railroads and can now enjoy building kits if they so choose... [;)]

[grandeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831
[

This situation is, I'm afraid, very much hastening the ultimate demise of our hobby.

CNJ, with all due respect, I can't help but see a hobby that's light years ahead of where it was in the past.

I do think Walther's is going a bit to far with P2K pricing. I hate to see anyone run prices up more than neccessary (things ain't cheap anymore, prices will rise some), but my biggest coplaint is that younger guys starting out will have a rougher go of it without nicely detailed models at reasonable prices. It's true that on a budget you can detail an Athearn BB loco and it'll look pretty good. Problem is, it'll still run like it did before.

[csmith9474]

As I stated before wholesale is the way to go. It sucks to cut out the LHS, but sometimes I have no choice (especially when BLI finally releases those warbonnet F7s).

[robengland]

None of my locos run quite as beautifully as the Kato, but I have older Athearns that are as smooth as can be, after a little cleaning and lubrication and a TCS M1 decoder. Sure they growl a bit but some are almost quiet. I don't think the newbies have it so bad, at least in HO. My son has some cheapie N scale locos which can only be described as awful

[Anonymous]

I'm amused by the those who say "stuff is made cheap in China, so oil prices have little effect". Hmm, last time I looked, the stuff didn't swim over from China on its own, and walk down to your LHS. [:)] It has to be shipped, and ships use oil. And the stuff that unloads those ships and puts them on trucks and trains at the docks use oil. And those trucks and trains use oil moving the stuff around the country.

Basic economics -- the cost of something isn't determined only by what it costs to actually make it (materials and labor). Shipping has to be factored in, and that of course includes the labor as well as raw materials there. And of course there's the cost of unpacking the big boxes, sorting the stuff into smaller boxes, and then sending them out to the stores or end purchases. And of course, everyone along the line gets to make a profit, or why be in business to begin with?

So 'made in China' may mean it's cheaper than stuff made in the US, but it doesn't always mean that it's cheap.

[Curmudgeon]

Now, granted, this thread is getting long, and it's hard to remember who posted what, but here's the comment that was addressed:
"the price of plastics to make the models, paint, etc. its all related to the price of OIL!"

He didn't address shipping, neither did the responses.

So, let me get this straight, just for the record.
A small plastic half-zero engine (or boxcar) in a container with thousands if not tens of thousands of other items, on a ship with hundreds of like containers........

And the price per unit, you are claiming, jumps that high (once again, per unit) based upon cost of fuel?
How much do you think is charged to move a container?
If you add in oil costs (divided by the hundred or so containers on the ship), and then further spread it out by the possibly tens of thousands of items in the one container, you have empirical data to suggest the cost of oil jumped 4,867.32%?
Really?

I could go further, but hopefully you'll get my drift.

TOC

[Anonymous]

No, I'm saying that the cost of fuel is a factor, and can't be discounted because the price of oil is subsidized/regulated by the government in China. Labor costs are still the biggest part of shipping (and just about any business), but the cost of oil is more of an influence than some folks here have given it credit for, especially when it rises almost 50% in less than a month. Those container ships drink up a lot of it, so a 50% price increase can have a serious impact on shipping costs, and not just for hobby stuff. Heck, look at what it's doing to the airline industry.