These Prices are insane!

[Curmudgeon]

Biggest facor, and it's going to get a lot worse, is the un-locking of the dollar US to the Yuen.
Watch and see.
The costs have been artificially low for a long, long time.

TOC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Curmudgeon

Biggest facor, and it's going to get a lot worse, is the un-locking of the dollar US to the Yuen.
Watch and see.
The costs have been artificially low for a long, long time.

TOC

And hopefully they will start to price themselves out of the market, and MAYBE we can see some onshore production. Hey I can dream a little...can't I?

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, we are already starting to see inroads into Indai and Pakistan for cheaper labour.

I am in business, in the hobby, and I have watched as the dollar has changed to other countries currency, making my stuff from English-speaking countries cost substantially more, while competitors who had it mass-produced in China were tied to the dollar with their Yuen.

It has always been unrealistic, and now we are getting some adjustment.

BTW, on shipping costs:

How much more does it cost you to mail a locomotive across country now than it did a year ago?
No more, in fact, UPS has gone down.

Fuel hasn't a thing to do with it.
TOC

[Anonymous]

That could change if we see fuel costs rising and not coming down. I know we are going to see a postal increase come the first of the year.

[AntonioFP45]

Guys,

With all due respect its rather irritating to keep reading the same "doom and gloom" statement about the hobby:

1. Model railroading is self destructing.
2. This is a dying hobby.
3. It will be extinct in a few years with current trends.

Let's see now...........I"m 42 years old). So let me ask myself a question: About when did I start hearing or reading almost identical comments?...........Oh yeah! 1985! 20 YEARS AGO! Good Goobly! You mean the hobby that was supposed to have been dead by 1990 is still going?!"

Let's see: We've got
1. DCC,
2. incredible sound,
3. Intricate detailing on locos "in the box" ,
4. Special lighting effects,
5. Ultra smooth running HO and N locomotives,
6. Ultra Realistic scenery materials,
7. Gorgeous passenger cars,
8. Beautiful Cornerstone and DPM kits that still retail for less than $25........

AND THIS HOBBY IS DYING?

Please forgive my sarcasm, but I have a feeling that when I'm 62, there will still be some that will be making the same predicitions. If I'm around and still a forum member......I'll chime in with a post almost identical to this one.

Prices are up, but that sure hasn't stopped me from getting some sweet deals on ebay and train shows, while still supporting my LHS in 70+% of my model railroad purchases. If prices get ridiculous.....then that's why many stores have "Layaway" for "budget concious schmucks" like myself . Worked for me when I was a teen and still works for me today.

[Curmudgeon]

Clueless.
But that's okay.

[AntonioFP45]

Actually, pretty observant, but that's OK too.

[selector]

Prices don't necessarily vary linearly with the rises of the costs associated with the production of the items or of their transport. Instead, it is a FUNCTION of those costs because the relative size of the profit margin must be maintained in absolute dollars with the commensurate inflation associated with the lost buying power of the dollar.

If gas goes up 10%, the costs of the items rises 10% plus in order to maintain the ratio of profit to costs. That accounts for some of the increase in pricing. Also, as someone mentioned above, the market exacts the toll that is tolerated by a sufficient mass of consumers to sustain the widest profit-taking. It is self-regulating, as any system with feedback loops is; when production is high and demand low, stockpiling occurs and prices get slashed for easy sales on ebay. When demand is high and quantities low, prices stay high. If production anticipates demand, prices can stay high to meet a sure thing. After all, if 2000 units are built with an expected profit margin of 26%/unit at the factory, and all units are requested/delivered, whoa...good times!!

[icmr]

[banghead][banghead][censored][censored]. I am getting real sick and [censored] tired of everyone bashing Walthers. If you have noticed the A-B sets are at most $325 for DCC and sound and $225.00 for analog. I am happy that Walthers got Life Like. Now I will buy those engines since I did not like Life Like but now that Walthers has them I will get them. It is cheaper than the BLI A-B set I saw today. It was about $450 if I remember right.

I saw that some of you were talking about this being an expensive hobby and you are right. I however, will not buy the athearn BB's because they are no match for the Walthers, Katos, BLI's, Overland, and Athearn Genesis. In my opinion the Athearn RTR engines are in the same category as the BB's and I will not buy them if I can help it. I will buy Kato, Athearn Genesis, BLI, Overland, AND Walthers because they are better quality. Right now I don't even think I will buy any Atlas HO engine but I will buy their N scale engines.

That brings up a good point, Why haven't any of you talked about Atlas having high prices.

They are many reasons that the prices are high. One that I did not see posted here is competition. Just because Walthers is a distibutor doesn't mean that they do not have any competition.

Did I forget to mention that I like kits, I am 17 years old, and I am working on my first layout but I also want quality and detail and that I am willing to pay the price for anything that has the Illinois Central name on it.



ICMR

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[Anonymous]

You still have cheaper alternatives out there.Athearn is still producing the old blue box.Atlas is releasing thier Trainline.Bachmann has some decent standard line locos showing upYou dont have to have the costliest and the best to have fun in model railroading.If I want something considered high end I wait and see if I can find it at a cheaper price.If I miss out oh well.Ebay is the best place to find good deals on OOP stuff some at half MSRP.I also have a great LHS,I have known the owner for years.I dont understand the inflated prices on some of this stuff either.But the companys have to make a buck to survive.Athearn,while not the most detailed offer good value to the consumer.Those athearn units with the new hex drive are really quiet.I have replaced most of the older motors in my blue box stuff with the hex drives.Really makes a difference.And those motors will last a long time.Wether its a Kato or a Bachmann toy the thing to remember is have fun.This is a hobby,enjoy it within your means,Dan

[Anonymous]

For starters, higher prices are good to an extent. When things cost very little we don't appreciate them. When things cost more we make better decisions before buying and we appreciate things better. Sometimes, I wish my $10 that I take with me to the hobby shop would buy 3 or 4 kits instead of just 1, but I have found out that the 1 car I do buy is the car that I really wanted and I learn to really appreciate it a lot more. I want to mention that I am saying all of this while at the same time being a beginner to model railroading who has to pay high prices for the things I want. It doesn't bother me to pay higher prices. If I don't like the prices of something then I just won't buy it. I use a variety of stuff on my layout, I'll use anything from Walthers $30.00 engines up to Kato or Atlas engines that cost $150.00. I think Athearn is really great and I am very happy that they're continuing to produce their kits.

[selector]

Wisdom beyond his years. Well said, NSR.

[jimrice4449]

Just after WWII the "standard" loocos available in HO were the Varney Dockside 0-4-0 and the Roundhouse SP 0-6-0 at $15 and $30 respectively. They were cast metal w/ (by today's standards) absolutely minimum detail and no vlalve gear. The minimum wage was 75 cents an hour. That's20 hours for the Dockside and 40 hours for the 0-6-0. Figure those time frames at today's wages and then look at the qualitive improvement and it should be obvious that NOW is "the good old days".

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Guys,

With all due respect its rather irritating to keep reading the same "doom and gloom" statement about the hobby:

1. Model railroading is self destructing.
2. This is a dying hobby.
3. It will be extinct in a few years with current trends.

Let's see now...........I"m 42 years old). So let me ask myself a question: About when did I start hearing or reading almost identical comments?...........Oh yeah! 1985! 20 YEARS AGO! Good Goobly! You mean the hobby that was supposed to have been dead by 1990 is still going?!"

Let's see: We've got
1. DCC,
2. incredible sound,
3. Intricate detailing on locos "in the box" ,
4. Special lighting effects,
5. Ultra smooth running HO and N locomotives,
6. Ultra Realistic scenery materials,
7. Gorgeous passenger cars,
8. Beautiful Cornerstone and DPM kits that still retail for less than $25........

AND THIS HOBBY IS DYING?

Please forgive my sarcasm, but I have a feeling that when I'm 62, there will still be some that will be making the same predicitions. If I'm around and still a forum member......I'll chime in with a post almost identical to this one.

I've been around the hobby for a long time too and never heard talk that it was failing back in the 1980's. In fact, every indicator back then showed it was expanding rapidly. That is absolutely not the situation today. I have asked repeatedly on this and other forums for even one verifiable indicator of real growth in the hobby, or at least signs of good health. After three years I have yet to be shown a single such solid indicator. However, verifiable evidence of decline abounds and I have posted these in detail many times here and elsewhere. So, FP45, please enlighten us as to how well the hobby is doing with some real facts, won't you? And, incidentally, re your 8 points, numbers 2 through 5, plus 7, have come at a doubling or more of prices in just a few years. #6 has seen no really great changes in recent years. And DPM structure kits go back into the early 1990's and used to cost $6.98 or less. Only the Walthers kits are relatively new.

Far too many hobbyists talk off the top of the heads on these forums about how well the hobby is doing without ever actually going back and examining price evolution, production volumes, and the statistical details of what has been happening through the years, and why it has happened. I've done it and it is a very sobering experience.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

Hold on! I need to grab some popcorn...

[grayfox1119]

The people who cry doom & gloom are those who really don't have an understanding of the size of this hobby worldwide, not just America. They also don't have a clue of how markets work, they speak from feelings and prices they see, and LHS that are going out of business, and from their own inability for whatever reason, to afford the things that they want, so they do what so many people do, blame everyone else but themselves. Do they support their LHS ? More than likely NOT, and then they wonder why they go out of busness. They wonder WHY the LHS charge the prices they do, but they fail to understand that these people need to survive also, their heat/cooling, lights, rent, taxes, water bills, salaries, etc. all go up just like OUR expenses do, so if we do not support THEM, who loses? All of us. I am going to copy a phrase from a great president, and change the wording.......ask not what your MRR hobby can do for you...ask what YOU can do for your hobby.

David T. pass the popcorn please Dave !![2c]

[edkowal]

At least a part of the reason why hobbyists are feeling an increase in the price of their hobby has to do with their increasing sophistication.

I can't think of anyone I know that started out in this hobby spending large amounts of money for locomotives and accurately rendered rolling stock. Rather, a typical situation is that the beginner starts out with a train set, whether it be prepackaged, or put together by a knowledgeable hobby shop owner.

As you grow in this hobby, your tastes change. What you are willing to accept in terms of detailing and performance becomes increasing sophisticated. With that comes an increase in the price charged per item. Quality costs money.

When items come out that the majority of modelers think are not worth the money asked, that producer either learns, or goes out of business. This happens all the time. Any year, there are manufacturers that are no longer around. I'm sure that if you think about it, you'll come up with quite a few. This doesn't mean that the hobby is dying, though. What it means is that producer misjudged the market in some way. Remember, most of the outfits that produce what we buy are very small. Only a few are 500 pound gorillas. For instance, I believe Grandt Line has fewer than twenty employees. It may even be fewer than ten. The same with major producers of decals, and many of the kits that we all love to lust after.

With the really small, one or two person businesses, if you make one or two costly mistakes, you can't afford to keep the company going.

If the prices that you see are truly insane, no one will pay them. Based on that, the prices will then come down. However, this is not the first time that this complaint has been voiced.

When transistor throttles first came out, they were very much more expensive than power packs. Those prices were insane relative to what people were used to as well. The same with the PFM sound system. But prices were readjusted due to economies of scale, competition, and other market forces. Now, few model railroaders use a power pack, and transistor throttles are in the process of being eclipsed by DCC.

All the sophistication costs money.

-Ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jsalemi

No, I'm saying that the cost of fuel is a factor, and can't be discounted because the price of oil is subsidized/regulated by the government in China. Labor costs are still the biggest part of shipping (and just about any business), but the cost of oil is more of an influence than some folks here have given it credit for, especially when it rises almost 50% in less than a month. Those container ships drink up a lot of it, so a 50% price increase can have a serious impact on shipping costs, and not just for hobby stuff. Heck, look at what it's doing to the airline industry.

Hold it right there. That container ship is moving a hell of alot of widgets. That ship does not use very much oil. In fact.. I bet when it arrives at that port and it becomes necessary to deliver 1000 boxes (Or whatever the total is on the ship) to points in the USA.. then you are talking some expense involved.

If I order a engine at 400.00 equippted with sound and DCC like I did with the T-1 from PCM this year; alot of that money will disaapear into the markups and taxes before any of it makes it back to the orginal factory that made the durn thing along with 100,000 other copies of the model.

Fuel is CHEAP as long you can write it off to taxes as an expense of doing business.

Now we need to have a payroll for the crew, insurance policies for the ship, lading and required fees for ports. On to parts and fixings to maintain the ship and finally but not least.. the training and advancement of everyone from Captian all the way down to the Garbage man on that ship.

Then you gotta think about the land connection between the factory who needs raw materials, skilled workers and costs to run the buildings etc... the trucking to the port, onto the ship, sail across the ocean off the ship then shipping to the LHS a year late and into hands of lucky people who pre-ordered the item on deadline while the rest scrambles to find the few copies that have not sold. And figure in all of those people involved in moving that product. Lastly but not least is the risk of loss in transit. Not all of the widgets are going to arrive 100% damage free.

Ebay then sells the items at prices approaching twice retail (Go look at some walters kits that are retired and you will see where I am coming from) then come here and talk expense.

When I hook that Reading T-1 ($400 MSRP) to the set of Walthers Heavyweights (8 at approx 35- each) I have already spent pretty much the total annual allotment for the hobby this year. Then I still need the track, Scenery (Something like 10 dollars every 7 shakes in the small bottles), electronics, lumber, labor, electricity to run everything.. etc etc etc.. that trainset gets expensive.

But the hobby is not going to face ruin. Not as long as there are plenty of people willing to spend a thousand dollars or more for a nice trainset and additional money to keep the whole thing going.

The hobby of trains is cheap compared to classic muscle cars that went from 500 dollars for a rusted Ford with a 351 block to about 5,000 bare minimum for one that actually turns over. Then when you finish restoring that old car to a beauty worthy of orginal factory showroom condition or even beyond it... you are going to be 20,000 in the hole.

Did you enjoy the hobby? I hope so.

[Anonymous]

Some one voiced opinions about the people posting these types of complaints probably does not support their Local Hobby Shop. You are right I do not. But I can not be blamed for that. There is no local hobby shop to support. The closest one is 90 Miles away. And Its junk. THe next closes one is 130 Miles away and its junk to.

James.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831
Over the past 10-15 years we have seen a progressive alteration in the way the hobby is constituted and as a result it is self destructing from both ends.

Many of the newer hobbyists lack the time and skills always taken for granted by those who built layouts, structures, cars, and motive power in the past. The new hobbyist's cry is, "Give it all to me RTR!" In doing so the prices absolutely have to rise, often dramatically.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, the manufacturers have realized that there is a small but moneyed fraction of hobbyists that will pay almost any price for their toys. The manufacturers have aimed limited runs of RTR items so as to sell them out immediately to these folks and maximize profits. Good for the company's bottom line but not for hobbyists. In doing so, they progressive force out those who can not afford the new ever higher prices...currently, or at least soon to be, the majority of today's model railroaders.

This situation is, I'm afraid, very much hastening the ultimate demise of our hobby.

CNJ831

Once again, CNJ, you've hit a home run - you've summed up the situation perfectly. The manufacturers are increasingly catering to a small number of people with deep pockets who want the latest limited-run RTR thing NOW - while forgetting the average hobbyist. This may gain them large profits in the short term, but in the long run, it will not be healthy for the hobby if they continue to price people out of the market and shrink their customer base.

[Anonymous]

This thread has caused me to write, rewrite and edit.

Gone are the days you could buy a bunch of blue box rolling stock inside a hobby shop for 10.00 Get over it. There is always ebay. That wonderful ebay service that was only 10 years or so in existance has allowed me to acquire items supposidely discontinued or OOP forever.

Also gone are the days where you actually had time to cook breakfast with the family in the morning, take a full hour for lunch and actually make dinner fresh from stractch and get in the TV show before bed during the workday. Everything today is instant, microwave and virtually disposible. They built cars 30 years ago and they last forever. Today's cars are expected to wear out within 10 years forcing you in a endless cycle of car payments and finance charges to the lucky seller and his factory. (I buy used with one time cash payments and beat the system that way)

I still support the hobby shop.. but I dont go there as often anymore. I still spend as much money but come home with a smaller bag and fewer items. So I must choose carefully what I purchase.

The days of 24/7 availiblity of many items are gone.

Factories demand advance reservations for a copy of that Limited Run item before the deadline. Kinda hard to be buying engines without ever seeing or hearing one in person at the hobby shop now isnt it? Yes I did order the Reading T-1 (Who hasnt?) simply because the company that is making it is similar to BLI but with a different sound decoder. And no one ever made this engine in plastic RTR before.

If said engine does not perform.. I put it up on ebay. Someone else will snap it up quickly enough. So are we now in the age of the "Disposable trains?" I think so.

Wait until China gains the financial moxie to pay thier workers 20.00 an hour in the factory and outsource THIER needs to another third world nation such as Ethopia or Vietnam. Our stuff coming from there will get REALLY expensive and bite those who thought they could save money by outsourcing in the ***.

I wrestle with utility bills that climb higher with incessant offers from the same companies to buy more services and pay more money per month. Fighting costs that climb such as gasoline makes me think twice about going to the store unless I have a second or third errand that can be accomodated in that area as well for one trip.

PFM and Brass is just as good as DCC and Onboard QSI sound. It is a matter of "Driving" the trains somewhat differently. I think those who use DC control with Cab-block signalling to control trains on thier layouts are in good shape. With QSI they can have the cake and eat it too.

DCC on the other hand.. they can make trains do things that our granddaddies can only dream of. So .. are you running DCC for it's simplicy or trying to keep up with the Joneses at the club?

When I was younger.. trains were sold in Kaybee next to the Atari video games and model kits. That was like.. 30 years ago. Now.. trains are non-exisitant in Kaybee and if anywhere outside a REAL hobby shop are likely to be really questionable in quality.

Children today will enjoy trains in the future.. but they will definately need that college education to support the hobby with that nice paycheck... er.. salary.

The rest of us buy and trade with the internet to literally find the lowest price possible for a item. So.. I think this is a time of war between those who wi***o sell trains verus the factory (Maker of trains) and the shoppers... (You and me) as pawns. Only that we can now turn to ebay or other sources to bypass the full MSRP or work an end run around that limited run 6 month's after it's sold out release.

[philnrunt]

Alot of good points being made on all sides, but I have to agree with Blue Skys basic complaint- a big price increase with absolutely no improvement in quality.
I bought 2 Kato SD38-2s earlier this year, and paid what I thought was a pretty steep price for them, but i knew Kato quality was worth it. Walthers still makes stuff comparable to early years Blue Box, thick and bulky and not the best runners, and they charge premium prices for them.
Thats where my major complaint lies. I'll be glad to pay for better quality when I can, but don't gouge me for the level of quality Walthers puts out.
It's just not worth it.

[TBat55]

At least I can afford more than those Chinese getting $0.16 per hour. What's that worth? A couple of ties or a tree?

[AntonioFP45]

Oh, well, no offense to those with counter view points, but yes......I heard the doom and gloom predictions back then from owners, modelers, and I clearly remember reading opinions in magazines back (before the "internet explosion") with modelers complaining about increasing prices and the decline, percentage wise, of modelers entering the hobby. I remember because it was shortly before I met the woman that was to be my wife.

Uh, do any of you remember modelers complaining back in the mid 80s that the new "video game systems" (Playstation, Sega Saturn, etc.), as well as rising fuel costs were going to help doom the hobby? I even became concerned. Two LHS owners I spoke with back then basically told me to ignore it. I'm glad I took their advice.

Now, today I'm seeing and hearing the same, very tired, rhetoric A-G-A-I-N. I agree that some prices are getting ridiculous but we will always have options. To this day I haven't paid anymore than $48 for a P2K E7, which were $100 at my local LHS's when they first hit the market.

My point was that my income is not high at all (I'm a Tech Teacher) and chances are that many of you are better off financially than I am. Yet, I find a way to get the items I want, so can most of us.

So Doom and Gloomers...........You make very valid points.....I'm not dissing you but please think about this: You guys are certainly not helping the hobby at all. Newbies reading these types of threads may decide to go somewhere else.

Expensive? My neighbor is an RC Car nut. Makes less money than I do but doesn't blink when he spends $300 for one car. John Clark, I man I used to work is an RC airplane nut. Last time I saw him, he proudly showed me a new high performance engine he bought for his RC Cessna. He didn't bat an eyelash when he told me he spent $500!

Mama-Mia! I'll stick to trains. [:D]

Peace!

[IRONROOSTER]

Doom and gloom.
Remember when slot cars were going to take over from trains?
Remember how the hobby was deteriorating because these new fangled plastic kits were ruining the craftsman market?
And my favorite - the manufacturers are all in a conspiracy to charge high prices even though they make the stuff for pennies.

The hobby isn't free, but to expect museum quality at toy store prices is unrealistic. We've had several threads on prices, when you go back and look at price increases for items that existed 20-30 years ago you find that they are generally in line with inflation. Problem is we don't want the quality of 30 years ago.

Enjoy
Paul

[MAbruce]

This is yet another re-hash of a tired topic.

Why do I say tired? Because no one has offered any HARD evidence/numbers that the hobby is either declining or increasing. This is mainly because all MRR manufacturers are privately held companies that do not have any requirement to disclose their financial results. Let’s face it folks, without hard numbers from the financials, we’re only left to guess what’s going on by other indicators that are not always a reliable way of measuring what the market is doing.

So let’s stop taking ourselves so seriously on this subject and admit that we just don’t really know. We can only make guesses.

But I will tell you something I DO know. I have not spent a single dollar on the hobby this year. At the end of last year I determined that I could no longer afford to keep up. So my layout went into stasis, my Ntrak membership went into dormancy, and the meager MRR budget I would have worked with went into small home improvement items.

That’s certainly not an indicator of the state of the hobby, but it’s an important indicator to me. Prices in this hobby have gone up way too much and I’m getting far more satisfaction spending it on my house where it seems to go much further.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MAbruce

This is yet another re-hash of a tired topic.

Why do I say tired? Because no one has offered any HARD evidence/numbers that the hobby is either declining or increasing. This is mainly because all MRR manufacturers are privately held companies that do not have any requirement to disclose their financial results. Let’s face it folks, without hard numbers from the financials, we’re only left to guess what’s going on by other indicators that are not always a reliable way of measuring what the market is doing.

So let’s stop taking ourselves so seriously on this subject and admit that we just don’t really know. We can only make guesses.

But I will tell you something I DO know. I have not spent a single dollar on the hobby this year. At the end of last year I determined that I could no longer afford to keep up. So my layout went into stasis, my Ntrak membership went into dormancy, and the meager MRR budget I would have worked with went into small home improvement items.

That’s certainly not an indicator of the state of the hobby, but it’s an important indicator to me. Prices in this hobby have gone up way too much and I’m getting far more satisfaction spending it on my house where it seems to go much further.

Bruce - Go back and read my very detailed and lengthy posts, which included numerous verifiable figures. These were presented and I assume widely read based on the number of times they were viewed, in a long thread earlier in the summer. There most certainly are hard numbers available in many areas and none of them are optomistic. Personally, I don't like for a moment what the numbers indicate, yet these are still what the numbers show. The worse thing I do see is how many hobbyists act like ostriches, will insist figures don't indicate anything because it's not what they want to hear, and will simply refuse to look into the situation in detail for themselves. As I've indicated many times previously, I'd welcome opposing hard facts but they are never forthcoming.

In your own situation the rising costs of model railroading have completely curtailed your financial participation in the hobby. Do you think this is unique? A great many longtime, older hobbyists are being forced out too and any new, younger prospects become increasingly hesitant to enter when they realize that, today, even at the entry level, a decent, operational layout easily runs into quite a few thousands of dollars...especially if it involves purchase of many RTR items.

The general hobby is following the same course collectible brass did over the last four decades. Prices endlessly rose and the number of buyers steadily declined. Eventually the manufacturers (importers) were dealing with a very small group of individuals to whom price was no real object. Where once there was a thriving facet of our hobby involving tens of thousands of modelers, there is now just a small group being specifically cartered to. If the direction things are going toward does not change, you will see the same state of affairs evolve for the rest of the hobby.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure the doom and gloom is called for or that prices are out of line with inflation; however after years of retail I know that price is related to gross margin/realized net profit, and prices are adjusted to maintain gross margins. As an example let's say Walthers sets their net profit for the company at a target of 5 to 7%. Each profit center including their retail,wholesale, Life Like and other manufacturing sectors are expected to deliver that percentage. One problem arises in the plan when you acquire an obligation to deliver a large commitment of product to a "retailer" that will only yield 1 to 1.5% net profit. Granted the cash flow is attractive when the product is finally paid for, which may not be for six to twelve months. The "lost profit" has to be made up somewhere to finance the production and delivery of future revenue.(Could this be the traditional hobby end of the business... the "cash cow"?)
So lets hope that the Life Like slot car experience with Walmart works to Walthers favor, and that we don't have another Rocco disaster in Milwaukee. Until the "new business plan" plays out I suspect high prices will be the norm. It may well be a contiued rocky road in this new manufacturing expedition. Lets hope it works out or we will be looking at a very different hobby structure in the future.
Will

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831
Bruce - Go back and read my very detailed and lengthy posts, which included numerous verifiable figures. These were presented and I assume widely read based on the number of times they were viewed, in a long thread earlier in the summer.

I do recall that you brought up MRR circulation figures before. They were very interesting, but could indicate a number of other things. If I missed something else – please point me to it. However, I do not ever recall anyone being able to bring up revenue figures and balance sheet results. These are the numbers that matter. They indicate not only sales & revenue trends but the general financial health of the MRR companies. When sizing up the industry, these numbers are at the heart of what we need to know.

QUOTE: There most certainly are hard numbers available in many areas and none of them are optomistic. Personally, I don't like for a moment what the numbers indicate, yet these are still what the numbers show.

It's certainly possible that these "hard numbers" indicate trouble. But I don't see them as conclusive enough to make a call one way or the other.

QUOTE: The worse thing I do see is how many hobbyists act like ostriches, will insist figures don't indicate anything because it's not what they want to hear, and will simply refuse to look into the situation in detail for themselves.

Well, that's just human nature. I've been guilty of doing that too! [:D]

QUOTE: In your own situation the rising costs of model railroading have completely curtailed your financial participation in the hobby. Do you think this is unique?

I don’t think it’s a matter of it being unique – which I’m sure it isn’t – but whether there are a significant number of people in my position that is having a negative impact on the industry. That I can’t answer.

QUOTE: A great many longtime, older hobbyists are being forced out too and any new, younger prospects become increasingly hesitant to enter when they realize that, today, even at the entry level, a decent, operational layout easily runs into quite a few thousands of dollars...especially if it involves purchase of many RTR items.

I have a theory (emphasize theory) that it will be a combination of steadily increasing prices and the passing of the country’s largest demographic – the baby boomers - that could be trouble for the hobby. Even if there is a big swell in interest amoung the younger generations, they may never be able to come up with the numbers to replace the number of older generation modelers who have and will be soon passing. Also, quality used equipment will flood the market at lower prices through estate sales, and the manufactures will have a hard time competing on price.

[Anonymous]

For what its worth, I just got into the hobby within the past year, and I don't think this hobby is any more expensive that any other.

Perhaps, some people here would say that people like me *are* the problem.

After I got interested in the hobby, the guy down the road from me wanted to get into it, also (that's two men in their 40's, who spend most of thier spare time in outdoors type things, coming into the hobby).

I helped to set him up. He got a BLI M1 Mountain type with sound, on clearance, drop shipped from BLI for $129 (I think it was). Pretty nice starter's engine! He got a DCC system for $170 or something. And a box of Atlas track, Customline turnouts, a few plastic structure kits, and some basic scenery.

Its only a shelf type layout along the walls like mine, but he is up and running a real railroad .......switching cars all over, many spurs, etc. Let me be clear ....he runs it....operates it....has fun with it. And, like me, puts together rolling stock kits, puts decoders in cheaper, old engines, etc as time permits. It was not a huge initial investment.

This is a hobby, not playing with toys. There are toy train sets, if someone wants to go that route.

If a young person wants to get into mountain biking, how much does that cost? Not a junk bike and accesories from a toy store, but a TREK or something from a bike store?

People previously mentioned RC cars and trucks. There is cheap junk from the toy store, and there is the stuff from the hobby store. That stuff is expensive, and maintaining it is expensive, too. I've been there. BTW, that's another hobby that has seen an explosion of RTR.

A video game machine is a few hundred dollars, and each game is $52? $57? I guess the game prices will go up some more when the next generation machines start coming out this Christmas (XBOX 360 ?).

I have three sons that shoot with me. And you know boys, they will just shoot box after box of ammo...... shotshells and centerfire cartridges (rimfires are no longer fun when they become teens, lol). Relaod? Thats a whole other full time hobby. And the price of a new gun ..... a relatively simple machine?

Rebuilding cars. A boat for the lake so the family can ski and fish. Dirt bike. ATV. Lift ticket at the slopes. etc etc etc

I guess what I'm asking..... has model railroading changed more than other things in life? Did it used to be that much more inexpensive (after taking into account .. inflation)? Those branchline kits are how much? Big, gigantic layouts, with scores of engines, isn't that a life's work, or almost.

Life goes on. Or, I guess we should say ....... train roll on, oh down the line (Lynyrd Skynyrd).

Jim