The most depressing thing about the Oct MR

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by howmus


Illustrator is not a drawing program but rather a page layout program.

No, Adobe Illustrator is a drawing program. Unless Kalmbach has changed its preferences in the past three years and switched to InDesign, it still uses QuarkXpress for pagination.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SPandS-fan

QUOTE: Originally posted by howmus


Illustrator is not a drawing program but rather a page layout program.

No, Adobe Illustrator is a drawing program. Unless Kalmbach has changed its preferences in the past three years and switched to InDesign, it still uses QuarkXpress for pagination.

I think Adobe's Quark-Killer "InDesign" never materialized. Way to many printing services are setup for Quark, though PDF's are a another way to deliver the ready print files. To be honest, though I always preferred InDesign over Quark. I haven't heard of many folks using Illustrator for heavy press work. I know a lot of billboard companies like Illustrator. Sorry for the off-topic, but I always find software choices to be a little interesting, the old computer geek in me.

[dknelson]

So what is more "dishonest" -- 1) taking an indoor model outside and photographing it with a real sky and scenery background that is not actually to be found in the guy's basement (a very very common practice by the way), 2) moving a painting of sky behind the model which is not actually part of the backdrop -- very common for Model Railroad project railroad photos; or 3) inserting a digital sky but keeping the layout inside for photos? I am just asking, I am not claiming I know the answer. But I will say that the number one thing that marks most model layout photos as being models is the sky and the background.
Dave Nelson

[Billba]

Received my October MR yesterday(Saturday), and absolutely lovin' it!! Fake pictures, captions, and all!!

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dknelson

So what is more "dishonest" -- 1) taking an indoor model outside and photographing it with a real sky and scenery background that is not actually to be found in the guy's basement (a very very common practice by the way), 2) moving a painting of sky behind the model which is not actually part of the backdrop -- very common for Model Railroad project railroad photos; or 3) inserting a digital sky but keeping the layout inside for photos? I am just asking, I am not claiming I know the answer. But I will say that the number one thing that marks most model layout photos as being models is the sky and the background.

Dave - The answer is, if you are dealing with "layout tour" articles, readers want to see the way the layout actually appears, just as if you were standing in the room viewing it. How many times do we see posts pleading for layout room shots instead of the endless 6"x 6" area superdetailed photos that illustrate these articles? Readers what to see what others have actually done and apply the best aspects to their own layouts.

I think what particularly troubles most of us about any image manipulation in layout tour articles is that it is only a small step from adding a sky to adding a bit of mountainous terrain to the background, then a specialty structures or two, and so on, until you can't decide what's modeling and what's computer generated image. The most useful illustrations show things as they really are...not how we wi***hey were.

CNJ831

[skiloff]

You people just got the October MR????? I got my SEPTEMBER last week!!!! That is one thing that has always irked me about an MR subscription. Here in Canada, the normal subscription price is virtually the same as I can buy it for at the Newstand, PLUS the newstand has it at least a week (usually two) before I get it. The only reason I got the subscription this year was because my kids' fundraiser from school had MR subscriptions that were actually $15 less than I could get it at the Newsstand - or $1.25 per issues less. But I still get it much later than the Newstand does. I think as a subscriber, I should get it BEFORE the general public has access, or at least at the same time. Maybe I should copy and paste this in an email to them and see what they have to say. [soapbox]

[dgwinup]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

QUOTE: Originally posted by dgwinup

"All's fair in love or war."

Now we can add model railroading to that list! LOL

Oh, I'm glad you added that last line. I was just about to say, "so now it is war with MR." That wouldn't be real good since this is basically their form.

Let me start by saying that MR is a great magazine, and has been for years, IMHO. I've been a fairly regular subscriber for many years and have collected most back copies dating to the early 1970's.

With that said, I think that if the readers of MR have a problem with some part of an issue, then a discussion on this forum is a good and healthy thing, both for us modelers AND for MR. If you are dissatisfied with any portion of the magazine, I'm sure that MR would like to hear about it. I am NOT advocating 'flaming' them, just some constructive criticism. I believe that MR would support this forum even if they end up taking some criticisms now and then.

"Round up the horses, boys, and we'll head 'em off at the pass" - Slim Pickens, 'Blazing Saddles'

Darrell, full of beans, but quiet...for now

[dgwinup]

BTW, I haven't received my Oct issue (here in the Midwest), so I can't comment on this topic.

In the past, MR received lots of criticism in their Annual Photo Contest, to the point that they changed the rules to allow digitally enhanced photos in a catagory separate from non-enhanced photos. Seems to me that they listened to the readers.

As far as enhanced photos are concerned, I think that the reader should be informed when the photo has been enhanced digitally. It is not an actual photo, so it shouldn't be presented as one.

My [2c] worth.

Darrell, still quiet...for now

[chateauricher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by skiloff
You people just got the October MR????? I got my SEPTEMBER last week!!!! That is one thing that has always irked me about an MR subscription.

That is odd. I got my October copy last week. And I live near Québec City, farther from MR's offices than you do. I get my copy of MR 4 to 5 weeks before the issue date (eg: At the end of August (the 31st), I got the October issue).

If I were you, I'd definitely look into why you're getting your MRs so late. At the very least, you should be getting it at the same time as your local retailers.

[skiloff]

I wondered that, Timothy. I think I'll put in a query.

[Anonymous]

Presenting an image that is unobtainable in real life is wrong....Playboy used to airbrush imperfections out of photos years ago,but we all knew it....well,I guess most of this crowd would'nt have a clue what I am talking about...You see,Playboy is this magazine that................................never mind..

[Anonymous]

My two cents for everything. photos have been touched up for years, it is just that you can be a bit more detailed about it. I don't think they have become drawings yet. And dknelson, what about the idea that surfaced a while ago with putting flat screen back drops in so that one would change the weather, even have it as a video!!!! I like that idea, and would do it if I had the money, time and space, same as most others. I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I was lookin at some of my pervious layouts, and was shocked at what I saw. It was sooooo different to what my memory had, but at the time it was great. have fun with whatever type of image you like of yourself and your trains. Danny

[Bob Hayes]

I haven't even started reading the Oct. issue yet, but did notice a couple of items most everyone was complaining about. In Railway Post Office, there is a self serving letter about how thrilled someone is that Schedule of events is no longer in the magazine. And has anyone noticed there isn't as much white space in Trackside Photos?

Bob Hayes

[Catt]

QUOTE: Catt, it's called a forum, and we are exchanging ideas, some are interesting to some and some are off-topic or boring, I guess this is one you found no interest in.

David,magazines have been altering photos since there were magazines to put them in.What's the big deal? You guys want to see the junk under someone else's layout so you don't feel bad about yours?

As far as "not to scale" drawings are concerned it is standard pratice to state such info.

I stand by my origonal statements gentlemen.Remember this is a hobby .[:D]

[robengland]

Like others in this thread, I fail to see the distinction between a piece of blue cardboard temporarily propped behind a scene and a backdrop digitally added later, or between a piece of jiggled cotton vs a digitally added steam trail. How about snow painted on a sheet of glass in front of the camera?
Why aren't printed photographic backdrops "unfair"? How about the folk who photograph a brick wall, make a decal out of it and apply it to a model? Or the same with decalling the entire side of a caboose or boxcar with a photo? "Cheating"?

All model railroading is illusion.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

Like others in this thread, I fail to see the distinction between a piece of blue cardboard temporarily propped behind a scene and a backdrop digitally added later, or between a piece of jiggled cotton vs a digitally added steam trail. How about snow painted on a sheet of glass in front of the camera?
Why aren't printed photographic backdrops "unfair"? How about the folk who photograph a brick wall, make a decal out of it and apply it to a model? Or the same with decalling the entire side of a caboose or boxcar with a photo? "Cheating"?

All model railroading is illusion.

You are correct that all model railroading is an illusion but MR is here to teach us how to achieve the illusion. The article mentioned was about how to add digital photographs to the backdrop. No problem there The aim is to teach all of us that want to do that how we can achieve it. The problem is that we could do everything in the article and not achieve the results they showed because they went beyond the thesis of the article in the water photo by digitally retouching the water in the scene. We could do everything just as instructed and fail to achieve the pictured results. It is like a math book explaining 2+2 but showing 2*2. It's OK in the book but when we try it with, say a 3, we get all screwed up.

The "not to scale" caption was as stupid as putting a "Do not immerse in water" sign on cell phone b that is just what my 23 year old step-daughter did last week. With or without it there could be someone out there with calipers, reverse engineering the drawing.

[mondotrains]

I was a little disappointed in the editors of Model Railroader for publishing the article on mounting the Tortoise switch machine and not ensuring that all the details are there. I used to be a high school teacher and when you're giving directions, you need to include all the information for people. The guy who wrote the article talks about drilling holes in the wood dowel he uses to line up the Tortoises but there's no mention of what size drill bits to use for the different holes. If this guy has a good idea and has used it, why not be specific rather than let all those guys out there try to figure out what drill bits to use. I'll bet the only way you could get those holes drilled properly is with a drill press, but again, there's no mention of that. I don't have a drill press and I'd bet a lot of other guys don't have one either.....so once again, an article published by MR is essentially worthless to most people.

Personally, I don't think the approach is going to work and I'd bet that a lot of guys don't know what the guys talking about when he speaks of the material to attach the Tortoise to the layout because he never used the word "Velcro", which most people would know about.
My two cents; for what it's worth.
Mondo

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SPandS-fan

QUOTE: Originally posted by howmus


Illustrator is not a drawing program but rather a page layout program.

No, Adobe Illustrator is a drawing program. Unless Kalmbach has changed its preferences in the past three years and switched to InDesign, it still uses QuarkXpress for pagination.

You are indeed right! I wasn't thinking when I posted that. I have seen large Ad pages that were created using Illustrator and using images prepared in Photoshop. Then the entire page was turned into an eps file and sent to press. I took over the creation of a brochure for our Scout Council several years ago and had to recreate the entire thing in Pagemaker. The print house could use the Pagemaker files directly to print as they also used Pagemaker making it easier for all of us. InDesign, by the way, is Awesome!!!! I love it. However QuarkXpress does the job very nicely.... [:D]

[MidlandPacific]

Nothing to bother me per se in MR, but did any other readers notice the nasty slur in Don Phillips' Trains column, implying that DC residents were somehow less courageous than people in London or Madrid? It was a silly assertion, but I was surprised that Kalmbach would print something so offensive - particularly since his former employers, the Washington Post, are printing obits for soldiers from the area who died in Iraq and Afghanistan almost weekly.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rripperger

Nothing to bother me per se in MR, but did any other readers notice the nasty slur in Don Phillips' Trains column, implying that DC residents were somehow less courageous than people in London or Madrid? It was a silly assertion, but I was surprised that Kalmbach would print something so offensive - particularly since his former employers, the Washington Post, are printing obits for soldiers from the area who died in Iraq and Afghanistan almost weekly.

I think he made a statement when he was going to be working from Europe or someplace that he was going to speak of how "they do it" over there? I wonder if he is getting a little shaded in his outlook. I haven't really agreed with a lot of his comments of late. But what do you expect from an editorial?

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: But what do you expect from an editorial?

I expect real analysis, not dubious and unsourced insults. Here's what he actually said:

QUOTE: Perhaps the truth is that the people of Chicago and New York are less fearful than the people of Washington. I said "less fearful," not "brave." The bravery title goes to the people of London, Madrid, Baghdad, and other cities that face attacks with far more bravery than this generation of Americans.

I find that offensive: nothing less. I'm not going to impugn the courage of the Spaniards or any other Europeans, but I think that statement is worse than demonstrably untrue: it's slanderous. It's a slander on "this generation" of Americans, and it's a slander on the city of Washington.

[Anonymous]

Paintshop and digital photos should be baned from the magazine as they are misleading. Stick to real trains and models and photographs.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rripperger
It's a slander on "this generation" of Americans, and it's a slander on the city of Washington.

Okay, fine, point taken. Now can we get back to talking about trains, please?

[:)]

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: Now can we get back to talking about trains, please?

oh, all right......[:)]

[Piedsou]

Just checked the mail today, Tuesday the 6th and I still don't have my MR or Trains.

I think the Washington area has the slowest mail delivery system in the country.

Dale Latham

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: Just checked the mail today, Tuesday the 6th and I still don't have my MR or Trains.

I think the Washington area has the slowest mail delivery system in the country.

Ah, I wouldn't worry so much about it - you're just going to find out that Don Phillips thinks you're a chicken, anyway, being a DC resident, and all.

[jfugate]

I always find Paul Dolkos' articles to be most insightful. I greatly enjoyed his article in the October issue and then to find out there's another part coming!

Even Paul's article on his layout was very useful. Most layout articles are: I build the benchwork out of lumber, I laid the track using flex track, and I build the scenery out of plaster ... pretty mundane stuff.

But Paul's layout article discussed what he elected to do and why, what he originally thought he would do but changed his mind because it didn't work out in practice ... all the great stuff you want to know from someone who's garnered lots of valuable experience.

And now we get an article in this month's MR that's just loaded with these insights! [swg]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mondotrains

Personally, I don't think the approach is going to work and I'd bet that a lot of guys don't know what the guys talking about when he speaks of the material to attach the Tortoise to the layout because he never used the word "Velcro", which most people would know about.

He probably didn't use the word "Velcro" because it's a trademark of a specific brand, and not a generic description. There are many other vendors of the hook-and-loop stuff, and if you look at their package, they don't say "Velcro" either.

That said, I never thought of mounting a Tortoise with it -- I use hot glue to mount mine. I'm about to add another one to the layout, and I think I'll try the h&l method to see how it works. But not the dowel -- I like Joe F.'s idea of drilling a 1/2" hole and using tape on the bottom of the turnout to cover it for ballasting. The bigger hole and h&l tape will give me a better shot of getting it aligned the first time. [:)]

[jfugate]

I'm currently relaying the yard ladder in my Medford staging area with all new DCC friendly turnouts and I'm also going to try the velcro idea for mounting the tortoises.

With the half-inch hole, you have a lot of room to adjust the placement of the tortoise, so I think the dowel is an extra unneeded complication.

Sounds like a pair of Joes will need to report on how velcro mounting tortoises works out! [swg]

[ukguy]

I personally dont have a problem with digitally inserted backdrops, I would much rather see a good model infront of a superimposed sky than to see some other guys(male/female) junk on the shelf.

A good model will stand on its own merits, if the overall illusion is enhanced with a superimposed backdrop to me it is more enjoyable to see.

I will also add that a digitally enhanced photo is more than a simple "copy'n'paste" action, as I am sure Jarrell and others will attest, it takes a certain amount of time, effort, knowledge and skill to insert the correct background into a picture and make it look as realistic as possible, I see it as another aspect to this great hobby.

There is a line to be drawn, but if that line is pre-stated then it is OK with me, all movies and magazines are digitally enhanced, I personally would not be interested in superimposed weathering or superdetailing on a photo but a backdrop to the model is different.

Its your hobby, do what you want with it.









Have fun & be safe.
Karl.