$$$$$$$ again

[lesterperry]

I think everyone is missing what I am saying. Or maybe I am wrong. I used to tell people do not buy the train set at department store for thier kids come see me I will take them to LHS for good stuff for almost same price.
I am beyond the beginner by a long shot. (going to up insurance to 15,000)
My brother in law didn't listen & bought the box, it wouldn't run. He was frustrated, called me. I went to LHS looking for entry priced items, N/A. Try another LHS they had the train sets. Is the industry shooting its self in the foot.
I gave my nephew an Athearn U boat and a Mantua 0-4-0. He was amazed that the actually ran.
If he had not known a model railroader (Uncle Les) he would have left it and never looked back.

[rogerhensley]

I hear you. Every time I say that we are pricing ourselves out of the hobby, I get shot at.

Train sets are train sets. I had the opportunity to look over a Life Like HO train set the other day. Much to my surprise, I found it to be nothing like their better products. In fact, it was Tyco. I thought that Tyco was gone, but that Life Like loco had the larger wheel flanges and the Tyco motor in the one truck. In short, it will have the same running problems that plagued Tyco at the end. It isn't worth carrying home.

Now, about LHS, there are less and less of them every day and the Internet does not and can not replace them. A newbie to the hobby has absolutely no idea what they are looking at and only see price. High price!

I noted that someone in the other thread said something about Athearn Blue Box not really being worth the money (something like that). In one respect, they're right. The price has gone up on them as well, BUT they are still very much worth the money when you are new.

But how do we tell the newbie that when they look in the magazines and see $500 plastic HO steam engines and $200 HO F units. That is pure crap when it comes to newcomers to our hobby. We ain't-a-gonna get them, me bucko.

[Jetrock]

I think they're missing what you're saying because you are not being clear--how exactly is the industry shooting itself in the foot? The lack of entry-priced items at your particular local hobby shop, the presence of train sets at the hobby shop, or the non-functionality of the department store set?

Online ordering has become a more common way to order budget model railroad items. Hobby shops, realizing that profit margins are better for high-end items and they can't match discount online retailers for low-end items, lean towards high-end engines and items that one is unlikely to order online (tools, scratchbuilding supplies, etc.) but I haven't seen a hobby shop lately that didn't feature at least a few entry-priced pieces. Maybe they don't still cost $25, but how long ago did you buy that $25 engine--and what else would $25 buy then (and can you still get that for $25 now?)

[dknelson]

I agree that firms like Model Power have probably done harm to the hobby by continuing to peddle train sets that are cheap junk. Often you can tell from looking at the thing that trucks have fallen off the cars even before it is sold.
It is obvious that the sets are built to a low quality standard. There is decent quality stuff from Model Power. They know how to do better.
"Back in the day" -- and here I am talking 1960 era -- firms like Mantua/Tyco and Athearn and Penn Line offered train sets that served to introduce the hobby because the sets had trains of the same quality that they sold individually. The track was usually Atlas snaptrack not some knock off. The trains would really run and were durable and the equipment was of a quality that you'd keep using it even if you advanced in the hobby to something more serious.
Some of the Walthers train sets look to be of a higher quality than the Model Power and Bachmann stuff I see being sold at Christmas.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

Quality doesn't come cheap.

You can buy cheap toys for the kids (be it generic Life-Like or Model Power train sets or wobbley, poor viewing telescopes at Hobby Lobby) and have the kids disapponted in the end, or you can spend some money and buy quality trains (Atlas new Trainman line comes to mind, or P1K or Athearn RTR) or telescopes (Meade or Celestron), and start a life-time hobby.

The trouble is, most parents want to buy cheap toys - that act like and last like cheap toys.

[jrbernier]

Let's look at those cheap Model Power/Life-Like train sets. A few years ago(1999 NTS) I spoke with a Life-Like Rep. I asked him when they were going to drop the cheap 'Life-Like' line and just put their time into the P2K line. He told me that they make lots of money off of the train set line(it hits the price point that the dept stores/Walmart want) and it is a better revenue generator that the entire P1K/P2K/Heritage line put together! He said that the profits off of the train set line help fund the neat scale stuff we all want. As long as the big discount stores specify a certain price point for an item, the cheap train set will always be around. That said, Athearn & Bachmann do have some 'upscale' train sets - but you are seeing $100 and up pricing.

Jim Bernier

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rogerhensley

I hear you. Every time I say that we are pricing ourselves out of the hobby, I get shot at.

As much as many don't want to hear it, Roger is quite correct in his observation. The majority of the big manufacturers are today aiming most of their product lines at the small proportion of hobbyist for which money is not an object. Runs of items are very small compared with even just 10 years ago, much higher priced, and we are rapidly approaching the time of pre-order-availability-only. Very little consideration is being given to the average hobbyist or to the hobby's future. As LHS continue to vanish exposure for the hobby dwindles. In part because there are no entry level sets of any quality, major retail outlets no longer stock any model trains at Christmastime (or otherwise). And in so many word, WGH has said to heck with potential new, younger modelers, we're aiming only at the deep pockets of the 45-60 crowd and let them provide exposure to the hobby if they want too. Overall, most manufacturers of plastic HO models are following the path brass took - ever more detailed models at ever higher prices for a dwindling customer base. While this practice may temporarily produce a better bottom line for the companies, it will ultimately spell the demise of the hobby's viability.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

Actually, there is no proof that having a train set as a kid will lead folk to MRRing as an adult hobby.

Exposure to trains during ones lifetime is a bigger factor, I think.
That is what got me into the hobby - not the toy set I had as a kid.
If AMTRAK shutsdown, the impact on the hobby will be far greater than the price of train sets, IMHO !!!

It never occurs to some folk that the makers just might KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING !!!

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gbailey

Actually, there is no proof that having a train set as a kid will lead folk to MRRing as an adult hobby.

Exposure to trains during ones lifetime is a bigger factor, I think.
That is what got me into the hobby - not the toy set I had as a kid.
If AMTRAK shutsdown, the impact on the hobby will be far greater than the price of train sets, IMHO !!!

George - MR have done endless surveys of its readship over the past five decades and these clearly indicate that interest in the hobby for the pre-Boomer and Baby Boomer crowd (the vast majority of today's hobbyists) stemmed from having Lionel or Flyer train sets as kids. Virtually every author's bio accompanying an MR article in the last decade indicates they got their start as kids with toy train sets.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

You know?! I see gamers playing with 3,000 dollar computers and 300 dollar console systems hooked up to display monitors costing just as much or even more.

I had a tyco trainset years ago. That set taught me what NOT to purchase in trains.

Thank god for Spectrum, BLI, Heritage etc... they produced the quality items I crave. Never again will I go to a department store or similar to purchase the train set.

Business managers can keep thier precious "price points" but will have to deal with unhappy customers. Ultimately it is a lose-lose situation.

I say make the train sets halfway decent with kaydees, metal wheels and engines that actually run well and see the number of people entering the hobby take off.

You aint gonna get folks interested in the hobby by selling 40 year old Tyco Technology in a 30.00 box at a walmart somewhere.

[Pruitt]

Two main points. First -

Keep in mind - we live in an era of $200 sneakers.

Parents don't even bat an eye (at least in this part of the country) at spending upwards of $1000 on baby's "theme" birthday parties year after year. And they practically have to have one every year, too, or their kid is being deprived (right)!

Prices on all sorts of leisure activities are out of sight, and many one-time luxuries are now considered essentials. Model Railroading is just following the trend.

Second -

The hobby is pricing itself out of reach? Get real! If it don't get bought, it don't get made! The prices are what they are because there's a market for the stuff at that price. If prices were too high, people wouldn't buy all this RTR or RTP (ready to place - as in structures) stuff and put it on their layouts. And manufacturers have figured out that "limited run" is synonymous with "charge big bucks." People pay it, too, or this limited run approach to consumer gouging would stop.

When I first got started in model railroading, I had to go with the Athearn BB stuff, and I was real pleased with it. I dreamed of the then $300 brass steam, but couldn't imagine ever being able to afford it. So I made do with what I could afford. What I couldn't afford I built. Now I can afford it, and I do go for some of the more expensive plastic steamers and what-not. But I also still build a lot.

A lot of people are willing to shell out twice the money to buy something someone else built, so the manufacturers are obligingly providing high-priced stuff to fill this need. If a few less-affluent people drop by the wayside, what do they care anyway?

Playing devil's advocate here to some extent. Don't anyone get torqued up about it, okay? I'm just making a couple of points on the topic.

[TrainFreak409]

There isn't really a middle ground when it comes to train sets. You have department store train sets, which are crummy toys, and then professional model train sets, which aren't exactly cheap. If manufacturers would make a set with a good quality locomotive, two or three good cars, there would be so many more people looking to this hobby. I don't find the track and transformers as big of an issue. Bachmann EZ Track and the rest are good begineers track. The transformers work for running a locomotive, and maybe some accessories. The main problem is the loco and cars.

[Anonymous]

Athearn did a wonderful service in my hobby by offering a desiel that had all wheel pickup and decent weight/pulling power for $25.00

Brass back then was on the order of $300.00 on up. Dreams of fantasy to a young person on a school allowance. But even a $300.00 brass engine can be purchased if you saved enough $5.00 bills long enough.

The problem is the short deadlines demanded by the limited run manufactors. I feel as if I want the model I must order "Out of budget" today and worry about getting the money later. Ebay usually fills up with these EXACT same models 6 months after release for about the same price or lower. Take the BLI GG1 You could not get a copy for 300.00 at release. Now you can find any number for 125.00 on ebay just the way you want it.

My LHS has a few entry level kits for the kids. They also put together hand picked sets that work really well. (Makes me think about buying one of those sets.. imagine that) This is for those who have out grown the "Basic set" and are ready for something more.

It is nice to have DCC, QSI sound and computer technology supporting the railroad. Sometimes I think that is where the real cost is... not the actual engines themselves.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: Originally posted by gbailey

Actually, there is no proof that having a train set as a kid will lead folk to MRRing as an adult hobby.

Exposure to trains during ones lifetime is a bigger factor, I think.
That is what got me into the hobby - not the toy set I had as a kid.
If AMTRAK shutsdown, the impact on the hobby will be far greater than the price of train sets, IMHO !!!

George - MR have done endless surveys of its readship over the past five decades and these clearly indicate that interest in the hobby for the pre-Boomer and Baby Boomer crowd (the vast majority of today's hobbyists) stemmed from having Lionel or Flyer train sets as kids. Virtually every author's bio accompanying an MR article in the last decade indicates they got their start as kids with toy train sets.

CNJ831

You assume that the MR readership reflects the hobby as a whole.

[Anonymous]

In order to get off on the right foot newbies really need a mentor otherwise
he/she is at a terrible disadvantage. Forums can only fill part of the void and
then their post comes too late, once they have been screwed over. It's an
expensive learning experience.
DCC, Sound, Upgrades are all pricey options and in a nut shell, it's what's under the shell that counts. I'm working with a fifth grader and I lend out my Kato & P2K so the
kid can run & hold that quality in his hand.
This is my hand's on experience I can make available to him.

Wouldn't it be great if LHS can have a few demonstrators on loan just to get a kid on the
right track?

[Anonymous]

There has always been cheap trains available, at least in my 52 year lifetime. Tyco, AHM, Bachman come to mind. My old AHM E units ran about 250 scale MPH, had power to one truck and weighed slightly more than a passenger car. To my surprise, I sold them on ebay with missing steps for around $30 for the pair. Probably about what my dad paid for them in the 60's.
There also has always been the higher end stuff available, mostly brass or metal. Not all brass was nice or accurate, just expensive. Tenshodo made some poor versions of F units that still come around but sell cheap. We bought some AHM/Rivarossi Big Boys at Woolworth's for about $30 each. They were not very accurate nor did they run very well but my dad sold them about 25 years later for over $200 apiece.
LHS's ain't what they used to be either. I can remember at least 2 or 3 stores in town at any given time that had trains running and on display. There is only one store left and it has nothing running nor does anyone know anything about trains. They are just boxes of merchandise for sale. Ask about the latest video game and you may get an hour discertation. Hoo boy.
My kids are now in their 20's and they at least have some interest in trains. As I continue to buy rolling stock, locos, track etc. I show them and with a wry smile, say "someday, this will all be yours". Hopefully, they will do something with it and pass the interest to the next generation. Who knows? If nothing else, they understand that it has value, it's not for a 4 year old to just turn loose on and they will have a fairly substantial collection to sell off if they decide to.
Bill

[mersenne6]

Years ago Lionel paid for a survey of model train owners and they concluded that if the owner of the train was still interested in trains after the age of 15 there was a very high probability that the person in question would be in the hobby as an adult. I can't speak to the conditions and quality of the survey (stratified area random sample etc.) but evidence such as the MR bio sketches as well as personal experiences certainly don't refute their findings.

[BRAKIE]

First I fully believe the mases has spoke with there billfolds why else would Atlas introduce the low end Trainman Line? Is it because the high price bubble has sprung a leak? Perhaps..Now let's see if Kato introduces a low end line.if that happens then we can only guess the manufacturers has out price their bread and butter customers and needs to regain that customer base in order boost the bottom line .

[Anonymous]

My qustion on suggested price/quality/options is:
With as much sound as there is now available why isn't there a greater price spread
between sound/non-sound identical models?
One would think there would be greater discounts now since more modelers are chasing sound.
Have I missed something?

[Anonymous]

I think Bachmann have a good product in their cheap 8-wheel drive diesels - the GP40/GP50 and FT, for example. These are actually very good locos despite the prejudice some hold against Bachmann. They're a fraction of the cost of even Athearn BB locos, they have a good can motor (the same type as fitted to their UK diesel locos, which is felt by the model press to be one of the finest motors out there) and run smoothly and quietly despite the lack of flywheels. Body detailing is good if a little basic (nice handrails - fine and correctly-shaped), but you can add the other details for a little more time and outlay, the fact that the mechanism and body shape are good makes them an excellent first detailing project. For a little more you can have them with a DCC decoder factory fitted, the extra cost is less than the price of a decoder alone. I'd have been very happy with one of these as a first loco, I'm not sure how robust they are but at that low price they can be replaced in the event of a mauling from a pet or younger sibling. If you've not seen one of these in action, give one a chance. They're a lot better than the cheap and nasty trainset locos.

[selector]

Here is what I am seeing in all of the responses so far:

a) I can't afford some/all of the stuff I'd like to have in MR!

(Few of us can.)

b) Prices are rising faster than is reasonable, and I can't keep up!

(If you are on a fixed income, then natch.)

c) We can't keep the hobby healthy unless we get more people interested and willing to buy good stuff.

(No parent is going to place $600 worth of trains and operating electronics under the Christmas tree. Okay, 23 in all of the US might do that.)

(Parents who are not willing to reintroduce THEMSELVES to the hobby are sure as heck not going to pay for anything but the $94.99 boxed wonder at Gonzo's for little Johnny.)

d) We owe to ourselves, and to those who express an interest in what we enjoy about the hobby (as well as what we KNOW about it), to do some mentoring, or gate-keeping, to help them to enter it and to have a pleasant and positive experience.

(Yep. How? Do we lobby the companies, that produce the stuff that the more discerning among us prefer to buy, to cut themselves off at the knees and refrain from selling the junkier stuff to those parents who will part with $94.99...only ever at Christmas? If we publicly warn all prospective purchasers of toy train sets to desist, how will our hobby retain those who are concerned about items a and b above, when prices double?)

As the King of Siam said to Anna, "Is puzzlement!"

[dknelson]

Knowing what I know now, my folks spent a fair amount of money for that first ever Lionel O-27 train set back around 1957 or so. Based on what I see at swap meets it seems a fair amount of stuff from that era still runs. Wish I still had it :(
Dave Nelson

[robengland]

This topic got well canvassed recently
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=38173

Here's what I said then:
It is kinda amusing to watch the citizens of one of the least regulated least taxed most open markets on earth debating whether products are a rip off. Your prices in the USA are extraordinarily low compared to say my country. The actual price is lower and your disposable income is higher. Quit whining and enjoy the bounty you are surrounded with.

Some simple economic facts for you:

1) If Athearn are non-competitive then Accurail will eat their lunch.

2) If there was a market today for the crappy un-detailed low-tech products of the 50s then someone would quickly start making them to mop up that market. The opposite is true. Look at Bachmann Spectrum and Lifelike Proto2000 for two companies moving themselves upmarket, following customer demand.

3) Once labour was cheap, now it isn't. Even in China. Contrary to popular perception, professions like die makers and machinists and electronic assembly technicians don't work for a bowl of rice a day. If you pay more it is because the people making your toys are enjoying a better standard of living. Ask an old Japanese brass machinist if he'd go back to his paycheck and working conditions of the 50s when you enjoyed cheap brass locos.

[UP Deano]

lesterperry, i know what you are saying about the cheap crap in entry level trains,it really stinks. however, in the 40yrs i"ve been alive, i have noticed one thing, the people that have stayed with the hobby have all had "mentors", people that keep you going. and ,i know this might sound wierd, but i think it has to be in you(hard for me to find the words to explain). i"ve seen friends buy their kids half way decent stuff, but after a week or two,even though it ran good, it was put aside by the kid because, now he wants to do motorcross,ect. hey, i could be all wrong,but thats what i"ve seen though the years. i just dont think if there was better running box sets it would mean more would be in this GREAT hobby we are in, i think its who you are inside, and who you know. just my thoughts.

[Anonymous]

This is why ebay is so big .i cant afford to buy much at my LHS i got some atlas u30c off ebay for 60 bucks new. my LHS has the same ones for 109.00 i am sorry but with money as tight as oit is i do what i can to stay in this hobby.

but that also hurts because the LHS is not going to discount anything anymore because the lack of costamers. but in my town there is not much compatiton as fare as hobby shops. there are 2 and both are selling mark 3 atlas turnouts for 12 bucks a pice .in my travals i have seen other hobby shops selling the same turnouts fo 8 bucks now why is that ?

as fair the cost of the hoppy i think its mostly because the cost of materals to make the things we need. but look around you cant get any thing now for the price you could say 30 years ago or even in the past 3 to 4 years

[loathar]

I think the problem is that kids today don't have the attension span or patients for model trains.Parents can a video game or computer for their kids and it's like a baby sitter that they don't have to assemble or trouble shoot. Theres four year old kids out there that can set up a PS2 or a computer then sit there and watch the pretty pictures and here funny sounds.Lets face it,even if you gave that same kid a nice quality $300 set that would consist of an oval and a descent train and maybe some trees and a station, that same kids going to watch it go round for about ten minutes, lose interest and run for his video game.Trains take imagination and most kids don't have that today.I can see why companies aren't re-tooling to make better starter sets. It really wouldn't matter.
I was surprised to see Toys R Us still selling a couple of sets.Go to Wal Mart. NO TRAINS! Two full isles of RC Cars though.A whole dept. full of video games.
I don't think model railroading will be around in another 50 or 100 years.And that will SUCK! Glad I'll be dead by then.

[loathar]

P.S. to the Newbies. The things I said aren't a slam to you guys. It's the other 98% of the kids that can't get past the TV screen.You 2% keep your questions and pics coming!!!

[Don Gibson]

I think George Bailey is right on the money when he says when AMTRAK goes away, so will much of our hobby.

When little boy's stop's riding a train run by 'engineer's, and Firetrucks racing to a fire, they'll stop wanting to be engineer's and firemen -

I guess that leave's Policemen to fulfill one's early dream's. Of course, today there is nothing wrong with becoming a male nurse.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: i have noticed one thing, the people that have stayed with the hobby have all had "mentors", people that keep you going. and ,i know this might sound wierd, but i think it has to be in you

I agree on both points. Everyone who is starting out can be helped by a mentor. There is so much to learn and so many places to make wrong turns. Some guidance is very helpful. I also agree that some people are just born to do certain things...cars, trains, guitars, skiing etc. No matter how much you push, If some one doesn't have that "train gene" they aren't going to stay in the hobby.

[fwright]

The one telling argument about why the hobby is dying that I have seen is parental involvement (or lack thereof) - and I see it in my own life. The 40hr/week reasonable wage manufacturing jobs are long gone. The guys who worked these jobs were the dads of my friends in the neighborhood. These were the dads who would spend their weekends with their kids sawing up some scrap wood found at a construction site to build a table for the train set. These same dads would learn enough about wiring and electricity and model engine mechanics - as did their kids - to get the trains to run, and perhaps a little more.

Fast forward 30-40 years. It is very rare for Mom to stay at home any more. Dad generally works 50-60 hours, not 40, especially if commute times are included. Neither Mom nor Dad has time on weekends to do projects like building a table for their kids' train sets, much less learning how to wire it. Would Junior really rather play with Nintendo than spend a Saturday with his dad building a layout? The Nintendo is a known if not very satisfying (in the long term) diversion. Being with Dad most of the day working on a project is emotionally risky and scary for both because neither is used to doing it. Much easier to sign him up for a sports league, attend the games, and cheer him on from the stands. Nor is our culture very supportive of kids spending time developing the skills required to build, tune, detail, and paint a train set and scenery on a 4x8 layout. And too often Dad doesn't have the tools or the skills himself.

It's pretty obvious to me, without doing the surveys, that if a kid is not exposed to model trains, he/she is not likely to enter model railroading. There just is no pleasant memory to incline a person in that direction. Especially when you realize how little exposure most kids have to real railroads. Ask the parents who are buying today's train sets for their kids if they had a train set as a kid. I'm willing to bet my AHM Heisler (my most expensive locomotive) the answer is over 80% yes.

Fred Wright
jack of all trades....(you know the rest)