Killing off the Boy Scouts

[tstage]

For those of you not up on chemical safety terminology, the term MSDS (referred to by Fergy in his post above) stands for:

Material Safetly Data Sheet
An MSDS is a sheet or sheets required by OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) that contains all the important information on every chemical compound manufactured.

The MSDS covers items such as chemical compound makeup (or breakdown of each chemical in a compound into percentages), safety issues and concerns, proper usage, proper protection, and quick reference warnings on fire, health, reactiviy, and special handling precautions.

One particular category deals specifically with exposure limits: acute (short term) and chronic (long term). Most are defined as what the minimum tolerance levels are in ppm (parts per million) over an 8 hr. time period, known as PEL (permissive exposure limits).

Tom

[Fergmiester]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Attaboy

Ah, don't you love to see the doom sayers running at full throtle?

Remember cyclamates in diet drinks? It was discovered to be a carcinogen and they pulled all the drinks off the market. Turned out a person would have to drink a full case (24 - 8 oz. bottles) every day for 20 years to get enough cyclamates to cause cancer. Don't know anyone that drank that much.

While some substances are truly dangerous, especially to those working around high concentrations over time, many are harmless in average day to day life. Not to say we shouldn't take precautions, but I think a lot of people cry wolf (or cancer) too fast.

Unfortunately I wouldn't consider asbestos in the same category as cyclamates but then again do we know what this crap is doing to us. I will open another can of worms by saying this, realizing it is a very contraversial subject: Learning disorders and asthma are on the rise. We are exposing ourselves to far too many unknowns. If it has more than 20 letters in it's name or ends in "lene". Watch out!! Complex Systems fail in complex ways due in part to complex problems.

If your really worried as to the impact something will have on you check out the TLV and other indicators on the MSDS.

The key with asbestos is it is safe when inert or contained. It's the free floating friable stuff that kills you. It's a very small fiber with "meat hooks" and once in the lung, it's there for life and won't come out. kinda like a clog in the plumbing.

Just a cheery thought!

[RoyalOaker]

QUOTE:
Funny how the older I get - the more special that Eagle rank becomes!

I agree with this statement fully.

I too am an Eagle Scout and can relate with what you say.

I pray that my son (3) will grow up to both love railroading and scouting.

[davekelly]

mmmmmmmm. Very interesting posts. Gives a body something to think about to be sure!

[Anonymous]

Bikerdad brings up a very important consideration. As to the millions of lives saved by D.D.T., I recently read a very troubeling article referring to an intentional prohibition of the chemical precisely because it does "save millions of lives." The thinning of egg shells layed by wild birds is well known to the public through Invironmentalist's rants. Asbestos, Carbon Tet and numerous other useful chemicals have been prohibited for their "misuse" resulting in many health risks. Much like unloading a shot gun after a hunting trek; prevention is the "name of the game." All substances, no matter how benign, carry certain risks when improperly used through carelessness or ignorance. Isn't it sad that unsafe road vehicles, prescription drugs, diet fads, etc. will be in the "consumer markets" long before recalls or bans are invoked? I wonder if the moderate use of these materials comes any where near as close to "Killing off the Boy Scouts" as the A.C.L.U.?

[Bikerdad]

Citric acid is truly a dangerous substance. It has been found to cause severe irritation, even burning, of the lungs, and has been linked to numerous fatalities.

Of course, if you exclude the people who, while leaving the McDonald's drive thru after picking up a McMuffin Combo Meal with OJ and drinking the OJ, having it go down the wrong pipe, succumbing to a coughing fit, then crashing their car into a passing semi, citric acid is safe. (hmmm, maybe it was the dihydrous monoxide that caused the problems....)

The change from asbestos to less effective flame resistant sheathing is one of the factors in the timing of the collapse of the WTC. Banning DDT has resulted in millions of deaths from mosquito borne diseases in the Third World, as well as some deaths here. (West Nile Virus, anyone?)

All of these substances come under the heading of "trade offs". While we may not be fully aware of the trade-offs when we first start using them, it seems as though we're even less aware of them once some health threat is discovered. Instead, only the health threat is seen, without any consideration of the benefits...

We're constantly developing both new knowledge, and new products. Just as the Boy Scouts MR badge requirements have changed over time, so to does our understanding of the world. Here's two things though that won't ever change: everything is tradeoffs, and we are all going to pass away some day.

I think that one of the enduring legacies of the Boy Scouts is that they inculcate into their Scouts an understanding of the former. For that, I thank them, as well as those involved with Scouting today.

[siberianmo]

QUOTE: davekelly Posted: 28 Apr 2005, 13:08:39
Siberianmo,

Cool that you and your sons are Eagles. My son earned his Scout rank a couple months ago and is almost a Tenderfoot. It was way cool seeing the look on his face when I put his Trail to Eagle plaque (the plastic plaque with holes for the various patches) next to mine. Hopefully I'll be able to say the same as you!!

Funny how the older I get - the more special that Eagle rank becomes!

It was far easier in "my day" to get into Scouting than perhaps it is today. Parenting was quite different - society was certainly different. So, for those of us who KNOW what it's like to have those experiences in Scouting - our "charge" is to encourage our own to follow the path ....... Yeah, that Eagle means a lot - but more importantly to my way of thinking is what the Scouting program instills within a person that remains for life. You'll share my experiences, no doubt!

See ya![tup][;)]

Tom (Siberianmo)

[bgrossman]

Long term exposure to carbon tet and other similar chlorinated hydrocarbons causes liver damage among other things. They were used extensively as solvents and cleaners, but they have pretty much disappeared becasue of the health hazards.

Certain forms of asbestos cause a specific cancer called mesolithioma (spelling may be wrong) which is pretty nasty. A friend died from it about 10 years ago. Her only connection to the stuff appears to have been through her mother who worked in shipyards during WWII and must have brought the stuff home on her clothes.

Use of any organic solvent requires good ventilation to get rid of the vapors. Read the labels!!

Bernie

[davekelly]

Siberianmo,

Cool that you and your sons are Eagles. My son earned his Scout rank a couple months ago and is almost a Tenderfoot. It was way cool seeing the look on his face when I put his Trail to Eagle plaque (the plastic plaque with holes for the various patches) next to mine. Hopefully I'll be able to say the same as you!!

Funny how the older I get - the more special that Eagle rank becomes!

[siberianmo]

QUOTE: dknelson Posted: 27 Apr 2005, 08:28:16
In my circa 1961 Boy Scout merit badge book (found in my mom's estate) for the railroading merit badge (which involved both prototype and model train projects) they advise adding scenery to your model or toy train layout -- using asbestos for mountains! I wonder how many boys did that and have lung problems now? I didn't check to see if they also advised using carbon tetrachloride (a deadly poison) to clean track -- that was pretty common back then too. Yikes.
The book also showed ways to use dry cell batteries to power your trains. And most of the pictures of prototype trains are of F units.
Dave Nelson

I earned the Railroading Merit Badge back in the 1950's .. don't recall the exact year, but it was either 1950 or 1951. Anyway, seems to me that hindsight is always 20/20 whereas those who came up with the parameters back then were using what they thought were safe and practical approaches. I find it very difficult to take sides when having the advantage of today's knowledge over that in decades past.

Three Eagles in my family - my two sons and me. Great program and hopefully another aspect of trying to "kill off" the Scouts will fail and fail miserably. Sorry, I'm hardly "politically correct" in that sense and want to keep this fine organization functioning for the betterment of us all in the formulation of tomorrow's leaders.

See ya![tup][;)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Does it sort of make you guys wonder if there is anything today - considered "safe" - they we ought to be leary of? Hmmmm....

Just remember, your computer contains a product known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm, and your trains do too!! But as long as your not in Cali you should be alright...[:p]

[Leon Silverman]

This talk about various carcinogens used by modelrailroaders has overlooked the problem with solvent based model paints that were thinned by Dio-sol instead of the water or alchohol we used today. I recollect seeing an obituary for a cancer victim who painted models for a living.

[Anonymous]

I think the subject of this thread is a little bit over the top. Pehaps something like "The things we did when we didn't know better" would best describe the idea. The subject almost sounds like a tabloid headline. Of course it probably would not have gained as many replies!

Bob Boudreau

[dknelson]

We need Boy Souts to help us old railfans cross the street.
Dave Nelson

[JohnT14808]

When my son was in Scouts, he and I led the Railroading merit badge for our troop in Yelm, WA. It went pretty well, but some of the Scouts had problems with the kit construction part. The kits I picked up were inexpensive "tank cars" that the LHS had on sale. These kits turned out to be the HARDEST kits to assemble, simply because of the walkways on the peak of the tank.
The Scouts that had these kits did try their best, which is what a Scout does. Most of them were successful in completing all of therequirements for the merit badge, and my son gained some valuable experience in leading a project this size from start to finish. The troop ended up visiting the extensive public layout in the Museum of Natural History in Tacoma, WA just to complete a requriement. Talk about a fun event!!

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by heartattack19

I actually was an Eagle Scout,

I was always taught that it is incorrect to say "I was an Eagle Scout." Once an Eagle, always an eagle!

[:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)]

[Anonymous]

I've known 2 union pipe insulators in my life and both died from asbestosis. As a kid i can remember riding my bike behind the "mosquito sprayer". No known ill effects. My dad worked for Western Electric and we used carbon tet to clean anything not made of plastic. It seems there is no middle ground on this topic and I am all for erroring on the side of caution.

[Attaboy]

Wayne, didn't mean to suggest everyone was or that it isn't a very serious problem for some. For people working around asbestos all the time it is a terrible thing. That's why it was banned from being used at all. But using that same logic would require that we ban the use of all coal, because coal miners get black lung disease. There are many things that are dangerous or even deadly in some form or concentration that are used every day by almost everyone yet they are still in use, like chlorine in water. In it's pure form chlorine is a deadly poison, but anyone on a public water system drinks it every day. I think the key is common sense. The asbestos use as insulation in buildings is covered by drywall or some other finished surface and doesn't pose a serious threat to anyone, at least until they go in and expose it by taking it out.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Attaboy

Ah, don't you love to see the doom sayers running at full throtle?
....

While some substances are truly dangerous, especially to those working around high concentrations over time, many are harmless in average day to day life. Not to say we shouldn't take precautions, but I think a lot of people cry wolf (or cancer) too fast.

I only knew one person who suffered from asbestosis. Had he not suffered a rather horrible death from the prolonged illness, I still don't think I would suggest that he's was crying wolf.

Wayne

[Train900]

Course, being a boy scout and being one of two people ever to get the merit badge in my troop. I try to get people to take it when they go to summer camp for the reasons of

• It being easy, the counselors basically do the badge for you.
• To introduce them to the hobby.
• Plus, there is a trip to Cass Scenic Railroad ( only 10 miles away from where I go to camp.)

.
I' m thinking about getting my scoutmaster to let me teach this one to the troop.

[Train900]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dknelson

In my circa 1961 Boy Scout merit badge book (found in my mom's estate) for the railroading merit badge (which involved both prototype and model train projects) they advise adding scenery to your model or toy train layout -- using asbestos for mountains! I wonder how many boys did that and have lung problems now? I didn't check to see if they also advised using carbon tetrachloride (a deadly poison) to clean track -- that was pretty common back then too. Yikes.
The book also showed ways to use dry cell batteries to power your trains. And most of the pictures of prototype trains are of F units.
Dave Nelson

WOW, I really had it easy when I did it.


I

[tatans]

A few years back on holidays in Naples, Fla. I got up early one morning (5:30) to see the sun when to my surprise I heard a flock of large radial engines coming at me very low, looking up to see 4 DC-3's about 100 feet (I waved at the pilot-he had a mustache)spraying some wonderful chemical all up and down the coast, for mosquitoes,before I got back in the house this rain of good stuff covered everything including my head, maybe I can blame this stuff on my senility.

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

Along that line, aren't new wooden railroad crossties still pressure treated with creosote?

A little off the topic but…

This is something that is haunting home owners like me today. Many years ago, RR’s were pulling out old ties and selling them into the home building market to be used as landscaping timber. Now this stuff is rotting out and being replaced with those new interlocking landscaping bricks you find at places like Home Depot. Trouble is that you can't dispose of the old RR ties because it is considered a hazardous material.

[cheese3]

I am a Boy Scout and have railroading merit badge. The new book doesn't even offer any scenery advice.

[trainboyH16-44]

I had no idea there was a merit badge for railroading! Maybe I should join the scouts.[(-D]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

Along that line, aren't new wooden railroad crossties still pressure treated with creosote?

[:0] Call me crazy, but I just love the smell of creosote in the heat. It brings back fond memories of when a train went by. (But I don't just stand there sniffing them, that would be a bit crazy.)
Trainboy

[underworld]

Anyone for an Asbestos, DDT, and Carbon Tet cocktail???? [:p][}:)]
I work part time at a restaurant and I recently saw the box that contains their fryer shortening. It's tallow (animal fat) based and also has citric acid (I don't think that's harmful and a chemical group of siloxanes. Now I don't know if siloxanes are good or bad for you but siloxane bases are the ones prefered for wood and deck preservatives! Should we be eating this?????

underworld

[Anonymous]

I actually was an Eagle Scout, i was involved until my troop closed down. My dad is still involved as a merit badge conselor, he doea most of the ones required to be an Eagle Scout, and others, the railroad badge being one of them. But, no kid has done it with him yet.

[howmus]

davekelly, gvdobler, and twhite,

Your certainly welcome! I have been at different times been a Cub and Scout Committeeman, Scoutmaster, OA Vigil Honor member, District Award of Merit recipient, Silver Beaver, Council Camping Chairman, and BS Summer Camp Director and a few other things. Next to my church involvement and model railroading, one of the great joys of my life. Hopefully I have along the way helped some young people to be honest, caring, dependable human beings. I understand the "Only an hour a week" stuff very well!

My hats off to ALL of you out there who give time in so many organizations to help young people! I wish we as a group would or could do more to introduce young people to this hobby!

[davekelly]

The Railroadingt merit badge was one of my favorites. I remember building a Tyco General 4-4-0 kit for one of the requirements. I guess if I were to look at it objectively, it wasn't much - not a great runner, brush marks all over the place etc. - but I still have it - it was my first kitbuilt steamer.

howmus,

Thanks for being a being a merit badge counselor. I also am involved with my son's Cub Scout Pack and will be moving up to his Boy Scout Troop next fall so I understand the time you put in. Of course I also know how much fun it is to be involved! Big time thanks for doing the Railroading merit badge. Apparently several years ago it was almost discontinued until a bunch of model railroaders saved it by running a successful program at the National Jamboree. Can't wait till my son wants to work on it!!!

[Attaboy]

Ah, don't you love to see the doom sayers running at full throtle?

Remember cyclamates in diet drinks? It was discovered to be a carcinogen and they pulled all the drinks off the market. Turned out a person would have to drink a full case (24 - 8 oz. bottles) every day for 20 years to get enough cyclamates to cause cancer. Don't know anyone that drank that much.

While some substances are truly dangerous, especially to those working around high concentrations over time, many are harmless in average day to day life. Not to say we shouldn't take precautions, but I think a lot of people cry wolf (or cancer) too fast.