Killing off the Boy Scouts

[dknelson]

In my circa 1961 Boy Scout merit badge book (found in my mom's estate) for the railroading merit badge (which involved both prototype and model train projects) they advise adding scenery to your model or toy train layout -- using asbestos for mountains! I wonder how many boys did that and have lung problems now? I didn't check to see if they also advised using carbon tetrachloride (a deadly poison) to clean track -- that was pretty common back then too. Yikes.
The book also showed ways to use dry cell batteries to power your trains. And most of the pictures of prototype trains are of F units.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

Yep, I have an old scenery book the says mix asbestos with the plaster to slow the set time and add strength.
That goes back when DDT was considered safe. I saw an old promo film on the safety of DDT. They showed kids swimming at a city pool and then along comes the DDT spray. Then there's the scene of people at a picnic table eating and being sprayed with a cloud DDT dust!

[davekelly]

There was either an Atlas or Kalmbach layout book from the era which discusses using ground asbestos to make scenery. Needless to say, current editions of that book have deleted that particular layout.

[brothaslide]

Back then it was asbestos. Now it's the ACLU. Oppps!!! I'm getting political.[:0]

[tstage]

Does it sort of make you guys wonder if there is anything today - considered "safe" - they we ought to be leary of? Hmmmm....

Tom

[Roadtrp]

My dad always used "carbon-tet" to clean track. Heck, he used carbon-tet to clean EVERYTHING. I also suspect he used asbestos in the mountains. I remember him mixing in something with the plaster than left little silver sparkly things in the plaster. Would that have been asbestos?

My dad died when he was 55 years old. Heart disease; not cancer.

[twhite]

Hm--there was an article in the Sacramento Bee last week about naturally occurring asbestos deposits in nearby El Dorado County. Funny thing--El Dorado County is one of the fastest-growing counties in California. Do you suppose the Bee and the El Dorado Chamber of Commerce got together to try and stop that flood of Flatlanders trying to move to the hills? AHAH!
Tom [}:)][}:)]

[CNJ831]

While today we might look back in horror at some of the materials employed in the hobby decades ago, most of this reaction is really unjustified. Hazardous exposure to such materials, except in extraordinary instances, must be longterm and excessive to produce any documented serious health affects. Actually, I'm far more concerned currently about what is being fed to animals and plants we are eating daily and the emissions from electronic devices we are all using, than I would ever be over having employed small amounts of asbestos or carbon tet on a layout!

CNJ831

[Fergmiester]

Asbestos: A word I cringe when heard. I did an investigation into it's misues and mishandling several years ago and from what I read and researched came to this conclusion. Yes it is a carcinogen, yes it is dangerous but but it's "toxicity" is based on the length of exposure, concentration of exposure and what type. Crystoline being the worst. In small doses it shouldn't be a concern. saying that I still wouldn't use the stuff regardless! Like everything you have to read up on it so you can protect yourself.

Can you imagine the effect it had on the boilermakers and wreckers who worked waste deep in this stuff? I know my Father in Law died 6 years ago from Lung cancer and he was a foundry worker who use to line the kiln with asbestos. Coincidence? I think not.

Like anything one has to be aware of what they are using.

fergie

[howmus]

I am a Merit Badge councilor for the BSA and Railroading MB is one of the ones I do. Indeed the requirements have changed! The modeling requirement has been changed to:

8. Select ONE of the following special interest areas and complete the requirements.
a. Model Railroading
With your parent's and councelor's approval, do TWO of the following:
(1) Draw a layout of your own model railroad or one that could be built in your home. Design a point-to-point track or loop with different routings. Include one of the following: turnaround or terminal or yard or siding.
(2) Build one model railroad car kit or one locomotive kit.
(3) Name the scale of four popular model railroad guages. Identify the scale of four model cars or locomotives.
(4) Locate the web site of four model railroad-related manufacturers or magazine publishers. Print information on their products and services and discuss the information with your counselor.
(5) Build one railroad structure (from scratch or using a kit), paint and weather the structure, mount it on your layout or diorama, and make the surrounding area on the diorama scenic.
(6) Alone or with others, build a model railroad or modular layout including ballast and scenery. Make electrical connections and operate a train. Describe what you enjoyed most.
(7) Participate in a National Model Railroad Association switching contest on a time saver layout and record your time.

In addition there are requirements that pertain to Types of trains, explain how Amtrack was formed, how to use a timetable, plan a trip by rail between two cities 500 or more miles apart listing the times of depature and arrival at the detination. You have to list and explain various forms of public/mass transit by rail. Name four departments of a railroad, tell about employment opportunities, support industries, and interview someone who works for a railroad. You have to list safety precautions, explain about rights of way, tell what an automobile driver can do to be safe at RR crossings, and know how to report a malfunctioning grade crossing warning gate. Know the warning signs used by the RR and tell what they mean. Tell what the horn signals mean, know the color codes for RR warnings and explain the use and function of EOTD, or FRED. And.... you have to do some railfaning!

It is my favorite Merit Badge to teach! [:D]

By the way in 2003, 7,073 young men earned Railroading Merit Badge bringing the total from 1911 through 2003 to 157,662 Railroading Merit Badges earned.

[vsmith]

A couple years ago, when I was a building inspector, I walked into the boiler room of a old large apartment building and saw an old boiler with a cake of pealing asbestos plaster on top of it, pipes wrapped with asbestos, also pealing, and a lot of "dust" from it all on the floors. All the bad "friable" condition type stuff. The owner and the manager were unconcerned by it until after i said "asbestos" and ordered them out of the room and the door locked shut!

That was a real messy situation that took a while to get sorted out. I came across only a few "bad" conditions, most of that stuff was removed when they tore out the old boilers in these buildings years ago.

Never underestimate the human condition to put product before knowledge. Remember cocaine and heroin used to be prescribed by doctors for the common cold and Coca-cola should have been called cocaine-cola a when it first came out. Our history is full of people using things that years later they find out could kill them, arsinic in wallpaper, lead in paint, and the above mentioned model RR "advice" are all prime example of a condition of human behavior that sadly continues to this day, got Fen-Phen ?

How may new "wonder" drugs did they pull off the shelf this last year? Same thing...

[HOScaleModelRailroader]

Well - look at the bright side. If your house burned to the ground - at least you could salvage the mountains of your model railroad and not have to go through that part of the layout rebuilding process .... would save you some time to work on other less important things, like rebuilding your house.

[twhite]

Fergie and VSmith--all I can say is "Amen, brothers." Points VERY well taken.

Howmus--as an ex-Boy Scout, all I can do is offer my admiration to you for teaching that Merit Badge, and to the Boy Scouts for keeping that program alive and well. When I was in the Scouts a long, LONG time ago, our Scout Leader was a very avid model railroader (Lionel) and had a wonderful Hi-rail set-up in a shop building on his property. To help us with our Merit Badges, he would allow us to work on his model railroad (if we wanted, which most of us did), and back then, we actually used a combination of white glue, flour and newspaper to build mountains--no asbestos involved. Oddly enough, those mountains were pretty darned sturdy--at least WE thought they were. Again, my admiration to both you and the Scouts.
Tom [bow][bow]

[cacole]

Along that line, aren't new wooden railroad crossties still pressure treated with creosote?

I remember when I was young and innocent, my father used asbestos, creosote, and Penta preservative extensively in the construction business.

Our house had sheets of asbestos on the outside, roofing shingles contained asbestos, the furnace ductwork was wrapped in asbestos, I worked with powdered asbestos when replacing electric heating elements in Linotype machines, and I used sheets of asbestos when I replaced the heating element in a live steam model engine.

All wooden fence posts were dipped in creosote or Penta before being put into the ground, and the city had a truck that came around in the early evening all summer long spraying a DDT fog to kill mosquitoes. Paint was all still lead-based, and house water pipes contained lead. I also did a lot of soldering, building Heathkit and other electronics items.

I guess I must be lucky to still be alive after being exposed to all of those "deadly poisons" throughout my early years.

[gvdobler]

Howmus

It's great to know that you are involved with the program. My hat's off to you.

Jon - Las Vegas

[Attaboy]

Ah, don't you love to see the doom sayers running at full throtle?

Remember cyclamates in diet drinks? It was discovered to be a carcinogen and they pulled all the drinks off the market. Turned out a person would have to drink a full case (24 - 8 oz. bottles) every day for 20 years to get enough cyclamates to cause cancer. Don't know anyone that drank that much.

While some substances are truly dangerous, especially to those working around high concentrations over time, many are harmless in average day to day life. Not to say we shouldn't take precautions, but I think a lot of people cry wolf (or cancer) too fast.

[davekelly]

The Railroadingt merit badge was one of my favorites. I remember building a Tyco General 4-4-0 kit for one of the requirements. I guess if I were to look at it objectively, it wasn't much - not a great runner, brush marks all over the place etc. - but I still have it - it was my first kitbuilt steamer.

howmus,

Thanks for being a being a merit badge counselor. I also am involved with my son's Cub Scout Pack and will be moving up to his Boy Scout Troop next fall so I understand the time you put in. Of course I also know how much fun it is to be involved! Big time thanks for doing the Railroading merit badge. Apparently several years ago it was almost discontinued until a bunch of model railroaders saved it by running a successful program at the National Jamboree. Can't wait till my son wants to work on it!!!

[howmus]

davekelly, gvdobler, and twhite,

Your certainly welcome! I have been at different times been a Cub and Scout Committeeman, Scoutmaster, OA Vigil Honor member, District Award of Merit recipient, Silver Beaver, Council Camping Chairman, and BS Summer Camp Director and a few other things. Next to my church involvement and model railroading, one of the great joys of my life. Hopefully I have along the way helped some young people to be honest, caring, dependable human beings. I understand the "Only an hour a week" stuff very well!

My hats off to ALL of you out there who give time in so many organizations to help young people! I wish we as a group would or could do more to introduce young people to this hobby!

[Anonymous]

I actually was an Eagle Scout, i was involved until my troop closed down. My dad is still involved as a merit badge conselor, he doea most of the ones required to be an Eagle Scout, and others, the railroad badge being one of them. But, no kid has done it with him yet.

[underworld]

Anyone for an Asbestos, DDT, and Carbon Tet cocktail???? [:p][}:)]
I work part time at a restaurant and I recently saw the box that contains their fryer shortening. It's tallow (animal fat) based and also has citric acid (I don't think that's harmful and a chemical group of siloxanes. Now I don't know if siloxanes are good or bad for you but siloxane bases are the ones prefered for wood and deck preservatives! Should we be eating this?????

underworld

[trainboyH16-44]

I had no idea there was a merit badge for railroading! Maybe I should join the scouts.[(-D]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

Along that line, aren't new wooden railroad crossties still pressure treated with creosote?

[:0] Call me crazy, but I just love the smell of creosote in the heat. It brings back fond memories of when a train went by. (But I don't just stand there sniffing them, that would be a bit crazy.)
Trainboy

[cheese3]

I am a Boy Scout and have railroading merit badge. The new book doesn't even offer any scenery advice.

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

Along that line, aren't new wooden railroad crossties still pressure treated with creosote?

A little off the topic but…

This is something that is haunting home owners like me today. Many years ago, RR’s were pulling out old ties and selling them into the home building market to be used as landscaping timber. Now this stuff is rotting out and being replaced with those new interlocking landscaping bricks you find at places like Home Depot. Trouble is that you can't dispose of the old RR ties because it is considered a hazardous material.

[tatans]

A few years back on holidays in Naples, Fla. I got up early one morning (5:30) to see the sun when to my surprise I heard a flock of large radial engines coming at me very low, looking up to see 4 DC-3's about 100 feet (I waved at the pilot-he had a mustache)spraying some wonderful chemical all up and down the coast, for mosquitoes,before I got back in the house this rain of good stuff covered everything including my head, maybe I can blame this stuff on my senility.

[Train900]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dknelson

In my circa 1961 Boy Scout merit badge book (found in my mom's estate) for the railroading merit badge (which involved both prototype and model train projects) they advise adding scenery to your model or toy train layout -- using asbestos for mountains! I wonder how many boys did that and have lung problems now? I didn't check to see if they also advised using carbon tetrachloride (a deadly poison) to clean track -- that was pretty common back then too. Yikes.
The book also showed ways to use dry cell batteries to power your trains. And most of the pictures of prototype trains are of F units.
Dave Nelson

WOW, I really had it easy when I did it.


I

[Train900]

Course, being a boy scout and being one of two people ever to get the merit badge in my troop. I try to get people to take it when they go to summer camp for the reasons of

• It being easy, the counselors basically do the badge for you.
• To introduce them to the hobby.
• Plus, there is a trip to Cass Scenic Railroad ( only 10 miles away from where I go to camp.)

.
I' m thinking about getting my scoutmaster to let me teach this one to the troop.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Attaboy

Ah, don't you love to see the doom sayers running at full throtle?
....

While some substances are truly dangerous, especially to those working around high concentrations over time, many are harmless in average day to day life. Not to say we shouldn't take precautions, but I think a lot of people cry wolf (or cancer) too fast.

I only knew one person who suffered from asbestosis. Had he not suffered a rather horrible death from the prolonged illness, I still don't think I would suggest that he's was crying wolf.

Wayne

[Attaboy]

Wayne, didn't mean to suggest everyone was or that it isn't a very serious problem for some. For people working around asbestos all the time it is a terrible thing. That's why it was banned from being used at all. But using that same logic would require that we ban the use of all coal, because coal miners get black lung disease. There are many things that are dangerous or even deadly in some form or concentration that are used every day by almost everyone yet they are still in use, like chlorine in water. In it's pure form chlorine is a deadly poison, but anyone on a public water system drinks it every day. I think the key is common sense. The asbestos use as insulation in buildings is covered by drywall or some other finished surface and doesn't pose a serious threat to anyone, at least until they go in and expose it by taking it out.

[Anonymous]

I've known 2 union pipe insulators in my life and both died from asbestosis. As a kid i can remember riding my bike behind the "mosquito sprayer". No known ill effects. My dad worked for Western Electric and we used carbon tet to clean anything not made of plastic. It seems there is no middle ground on this topic and I am all for erroring on the side of caution.

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by heartattack19

I actually was an Eagle Scout,

I was always taught that it is incorrect to say "I was an Eagle Scout." Once an Eagle, always an eagle!

[:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)]