Killing off the Boy Scouts

[JohnT14808]

When my son was in Scouts, he and I led the Railroading merit badge for our troop in Yelm, WA. It went pretty well, but some of the Scouts had problems with the kit construction part. The kits I picked up were inexpensive "tank cars" that the LHS had on sale. These kits turned out to be the HARDEST kits to assemble, simply because of the walkways on the peak of the tank.
The Scouts that had these kits did try their best, which is what a Scout does. Most of them were successful in completing all of therequirements for the merit badge, and my son gained some valuable experience in leading a project this size from start to finish. The troop ended up visiting the extensive public layout in the Museum of Natural History in Tacoma, WA just to complete a requriement. Talk about a fun event!!

[dknelson]

We need Boy Souts to help us old railfans cross the street.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

I think the subject of this thread is a little bit over the top. Pehaps something like "The things we did when we didn't know better" would best describe the idea. The subject almost sounds like a tabloid headline. Of course it probably would not have gained as many replies!

Bob Boudreau

[Leon Silverman]

This talk about various carcinogens used by modelrailroaders has overlooked the problem with solvent based model paints that were thinned by Dio-sol instead of the water or alchohol we used today. I recollect seeing an obituary for a cancer victim who painted models for a living.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Does it sort of make you guys wonder if there is anything today - considered "safe" - they we ought to be leary of? Hmmmm....

Just remember, your computer contains a product known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm, and your trains do too!! But as long as your not in Cali you should be alright...[:p]

[siberianmo]

QUOTE: dknelson Posted: 27 Apr 2005, 08:28:16
In my circa 1961 Boy Scout merit badge book (found in my mom's estate) for the railroading merit badge (which involved both prototype and model train projects) they advise adding scenery to your model or toy train layout -- using asbestos for mountains! I wonder how many boys did that and have lung problems now? I didn't check to see if they also advised using carbon tetrachloride (a deadly poison) to clean track -- that was pretty common back then too. Yikes.
The book also showed ways to use dry cell batteries to power your trains. And most of the pictures of prototype trains are of F units.
Dave Nelson

I earned the Railroading Merit Badge back in the 1950's .. don't recall the exact year, but it was either 1950 or 1951. Anyway, seems to me that hindsight is always 20/20 whereas those who came up with the parameters back then were using what they thought were safe and practical approaches. I find it very difficult to take sides when having the advantage of today's knowledge over that in decades past.

Three Eagles in my family - my two sons and me. Great program and hopefully another aspect of trying to "kill off" the Scouts will fail and fail miserably. Sorry, I'm hardly "politically correct" in that sense and want to keep this fine organization functioning for the betterment of us all in the formulation of tomorrow's leaders.

See ya![tup][;)]

[davekelly]

Siberianmo,

Cool that you and your sons are Eagles. My son earned his Scout rank a couple months ago and is almost a Tenderfoot. It was way cool seeing the look on his face when I put his Trail to Eagle plaque (the plastic plaque with holes for the various patches) next to mine. Hopefully I'll be able to say the same as you!!

Funny how the older I get - the more special that Eagle rank becomes!

[bgrossman]

Long term exposure to carbon tet and other similar chlorinated hydrocarbons causes liver damage among other things. They were used extensively as solvents and cleaners, but they have pretty much disappeared becasue of the health hazards.

Certain forms of asbestos cause a specific cancer called mesolithioma (spelling may be wrong) which is pretty nasty. A friend died from it about 10 years ago. Her only connection to the stuff appears to have been through her mother who worked in shipyards during WWII and must have brought the stuff home on her clothes.

Use of any organic solvent requires good ventilation to get rid of the vapors. Read the labels!!

Bernie

[siberianmo]

QUOTE: davekelly Posted: 28 Apr 2005, 13:08:39
Siberianmo,

Cool that you and your sons are Eagles. My son earned his Scout rank a couple months ago and is almost a Tenderfoot. It was way cool seeing the look on his face when I put his Trail to Eagle plaque (the plastic plaque with holes for the various patches) next to mine. Hopefully I'll be able to say the same as you!!

Funny how the older I get - the more special that Eagle rank becomes!

It was far easier in "my day" to get into Scouting than perhaps it is today. Parenting was quite different - society was certainly different. So, for those of us who KNOW what it's like to have those experiences in Scouting - our "charge" is to encourage our own to follow the path ....... Yeah, that Eagle means a lot - but more importantly to my way of thinking is what the Scouting program instills within a person that remains for life. You'll share my experiences, no doubt!

See ya![tup][;)]

Tom (Siberianmo)

[Bikerdad]

Citric acid is truly a dangerous substance. It has been found to cause severe irritation, even burning, of the lungs, and has been linked to numerous fatalities.

Of course, if you exclude the people who, while leaving the McDonald's drive thru after picking up a McMuffin Combo Meal with OJ and drinking the OJ, having it go down the wrong pipe, succumbing to a coughing fit, then crashing their car into a passing semi, citric acid is safe. (hmmm, maybe it was the dihydrous monoxide that caused the problems....)

The change from asbestos to less effective flame resistant sheathing is one of the factors in the timing of the collapse of the WTC. Banning DDT has resulted in millions of deaths from mosquito borne diseases in the Third World, as well as some deaths here. (West Nile Virus, anyone?)

All of these substances come under the heading of "trade offs". While we may not be fully aware of the trade-offs when we first start using them, it seems as though we're even less aware of them once some health threat is discovered. Instead, only the health threat is seen, without any consideration of the benefits...

We're constantly developing both new knowledge, and new products. Just as the Boy Scouts MR badge requirements have changed over time, so to does our understanding of the world. Here's two things though that won't ever change: everything is tradeoffs, and we are all going to pass away some day.

I think that one of the enduring legacies of the Boy Scouts is that they inculcate into their Scouts an understanding of the former. For that, I thank them, as well as those involved with Scouting today.

[Anonymous]

Bikerdad brings up a very important consideration. As to the millions of lives saved by D.D.T., I recently read a very troubeling article referring to an intentional prohibition of the chemical precisely because it does "save millions of lives." The thinning of egg shells layed by wild birds is well known to the public through Invironmentalist's rants. Asbestos, Carbon Tet and numerous other useful chemicals have been prohibited for their "misuse" resulting in many health risks. Much like unloading a shot gun after a hunting trek; prevention is the "name of the game." All substances, no matter how benign, carry certain risks when improperly used through carelessness or ignorance. Isn't it sad that unsafe road vehicles, prescription drugs, diet fads, etc. will be in the "consumer markets" long before recalls or bans are invoked? I wonder if the moderate use of these materials comes any where near as close to "Killing off the Boy Scouts" as the A.C.L.U.?

[davekelly]

mmmmmmmm. Very interesting posts. Gives a body something to think about to be sure!

[RoyalOaker]

QUOTE:
Funny how the older I get - the more special that Eagle rank becomes!

I agree with this statement fully.

I too am an Eagle Scout and can relate with what you say.

I pray that my son (3) will grow up to both love railroading and scouting.

[Fergmiester]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Attaboy

Ah, don't you love to see the doom sayers running at full throtle?

Remember cyclamates in diet drinks? It was discovered to be a carcinogen and they pulled all the drinks off the market. Turned out a person would have to drink a full case (24 - 8 oz. bottles) every day for 20 years to get enough cyclamates to cause cancer. Don't know anyone that drank that much.

While some substances are truly dangerous, especially to those working around high concentrations over time, many are harmless in average day to day life. Not to say we shouldn't take precautions, but I think a lot of people cry wolf (or cancer) too fast.

Unfortunately I wouldn't consider asbestos in the same category as cyclamates but then again do we know what this crap is doing to us. I will open another can of worms by saying this, realizing it is a very contraversial subject: Learning disorders and asthma are on the rise. We are exposing ourselves to far too many unknowns. If it has more than 20 letters in it's name or ends in "lene". Watch out!! Complex Systems fail in complex ways due in part to complex problems.

If your really worried as to the impact something will have on you check out the TLV and other indicators on the MSDS.

The key with asbestos is it is safe when inert or contained. It's the free floating friable stuff that kills you. It's a very small fiber with "meat hooks" and once in the lung, it's there for life and won't come out. kinda like a clog in the plumbing.

Just a cheery thought!

[tstage]

For those of you not up on chemical safety terminology, the term MSDS (referred to by Fergy in his post above) stands for:

Material Safetly Data Sheet
An MSDS is a sheet or sheets required by OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) that contains all the important information on every chemical compound manufactured.

The MSDS covers items such as chemical compound makeup (or breakdown of each chemical in a compound into percentages), safety issues and concerns, proper usage, proper protection, and quick reference warnings on fire, health, reactiviy, and special handling precautions.

One particular category deals specifically with exposure limits: acute (short term) and chronic (long term). Most are defined as what the minimum tolerance levels are in ppm (parts per million) over an 8 hr. time period, known as PEL (permissive exposure limits).

Tom

[Anonymous]

before your know it, BLACK PEPPER will be a know carcinogin, like every thing else, bad always follows the good, IE, asbestos, was a GREAT product, but it was bad in the health effects, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, any way, im going to go work on my NEW layout bench work, later guys, Ryan

[davekelly]

Watch out for the saw dust, Ryan.

Just kidding.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Watch out for the saw dust, Ryan.

Just kidding.

But seriously, the old formulation of pressure treated lumber contained arsanic. The saw dust is considered a hazard. I believe the new formula is arsanic free.

Further more excessive exposure to saw dust can cause respiratory problems, and some wood species are worse than others. Good ventalation, and a dust mask are generally enough to solve that problem.

Of course, I am usually too lazy to follow my own advice, and when I sneeze I create particle board on my kleenex.[xx(][:0][:D][:o)]

I hate this stupid censorship program that has been installed on the forum. It thought I was swearing when I used the word a r s e n i c, so I forced it to accept it by misspelling it.

[davekelly]

Bigboy,

Given your problem with posting the stuff that used to be in pressure treated lumber, I think you'd appreciate this. My sister in law's husband makes detailed steel connection drawings for the contruction industry for a living. He emailed a client some initial drawings and was dismayed to find out that the email didn't get there. Tried again - same result. Being that this was a time sensitive issue and the client was getting rather upset - he asked the client to check their email server. Sure enough - his many emails were quarentined (sp?) by the client's spam filter. Why? The subject line was "erection drawings."

Dave

[yellowducky]

We do get sent into many dead-end sidings in life.

Help a Boy Scout with TRAINing if you can.
Someday our youth will be doing the training(teaching).

Which reminds me, since I'm layed off from the foundry (with29yrs.senority), there is no time like the present to do our part.
Make that MY part ! The rest of you will have to board your own train. May it be on the right track. If you need help crossing the street to get there, ask a Boy Scout !

[davekelly]

FDM,

Sorry to hear about your work situation. I'm glad to see that you are considering helping Scouting. Funny think about being an adult volunteer. Supposedly we're working - but the rewards are fantastic!!

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Bigboy,

Given your problem with posting the stuff that used to be in pressure treated lumber, I think you'd appreciate this. My sister in law's husband makes detailed steel connection drawings for the contruction industry for a living. He emailed a client some initial drawings and was dismayed to find out that the email didn't get there. Tried again - same result. Being that this was a time sensitive issue and the client was getting rather upset - he asked the client to check their email server. Sure enough - his many emails were quarentined (sp?) by the client's spam filter. Why? The subject line was "erection drawings."

Dave

That's a good one Dave. I suspect that the "bleeping" program is a direct result of the recent Biggy Smalls attacks. At least your punchline got through.[:D][;)]

[yellowducky]

It took me 29 years to get down to #14 on the senority list at AF.
I still might have a job after the sale is finalized (chaper#7 liq.), but nobody knows at this time. I can hope.
I invested about 10 of those years in Scouts as a leader. I only got back "heavy" into model trains a couple years ago. I taught the RR Merit Badge twice before my son earned Life, and life went on.

I'm trying to nudge Fort Wayne's Science Central (hands on science muesum) to hold a RR MB as part of their programing. They/we are working on it.

[Pruitt]

While we're on the subject of carcinogens, et al, how many of you folks are depolarizing your neurons (or polarizing them, depending on what you read) by using radio DCC equipment?!? Don't you know that low level radio waves are dangerous???

We all know cell tower radiation causes three eyes, and using a cell phone causes brain cancer.

Heck, even if you aren't using a radio DCC system, the rails on ANY DCC system act like a big antenna, spreading harmful, low-level radio waves throughout your layout room!

Oops! There goes another brain cell!

[bikerraypa]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ted D. Kramer

Bikerdad brings up a very important consideration. As to the millions of lives saved by D.D.T., I recently read a very troubeling article referring to an intentional prohibition of the chemical precisely because it does "save millions of lives." The thinning of egg shells layed by wild birds is well known to the public through Invironmentalist's rants. Asbestos, Carbon Tet and numerous other useful chemicals have been prohibited for their "misuse" resulting in many health risks. Much like unloading a shot gun after a hunting trek; prevention is the "name of the game." All substances, no matter how benign, carry certain risks when improperly used through carelessness or ignorance.

You're right. It reminds me of the apple juice thing back in the 80's. What was that chemical called.....alar?? Allar? Something like that. Anyway, they were having congressional hearings and all the folks on the "save children, ban (substance)" kicks. Further study proved that yes, traces of the substance were found in apple juice and yes, they would cause cancer, but to get a sufficient dose, you'd have to drink something like 300 gallons of apple juice a day, every day for twenty years.

So I always try to check the science when I hear stuff like this, at least as far as my shriveled little brain can wrap around it. Lots of stuff is "dangerous." Distilled water is dangerous, if someone holds your head under it for a few minutes.


Ray out

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

While we're on the subject of carcinogens, et al, how many of you folks are depolarizing your neurons (or polarizing them, depending on what you read) by using radio DCC equipment?!? Don't you know that low level radio waves are dangerous???

We all know cell tower radiation causes three eyes, and using a cell phone causes brain cancer.

Heck, even if you aren't using a radio DCC system, the rails on ANY DCC system act like a big antenna, spreading harmful, low-level radio waves throughout your layout room!

Oops! There goes another brain cell!

I think you are joking, Brunton.

But if you are not (or others think you are not), I will reassure them (or you) that there is NO scientific evidence for this.

[jfugate]

There was no scientific evidence that microscopic germs cause sickness for many centuries and that didn't stop them from making people sick.

Then the microscope was invented and what do you know! Look at all those little buggers.

All we really know for sure is there's no current way to measure the effect, if any, that these devices have on biological processes. Beyond that, we have some anecdotal evidence and some theories.

Just remember all scientific facts we know today started as anecdotal evidence and theories. Most of them were poppycock, but eventually someone found the tie and figured it out.

"Lack of current scientific evidence does not a certainty make," as Yoda might say.
[:D]

[Attaboy]

I personally prefer to indulge in most things in moderation and not worry about it. The stress of worrying about all the possible things that might, could, or maybe, possibly make you sick or worse will make us sicker than the substances themselves.

[Anonymous]

http://www.aps.org/statements/05_3.cfm

[Anonymous]

Attaboy- -"attaboy!"