Metal wheel sets. How much do they help?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson
DANGER. I use graphite with WALTHERS Passeger cars because graphite conducts electricity but. It can short out the insulating ring on conventional wheels. Conventional wheelsets need one insulated wheel.

Thanks for bringing up that point Don. I never had that problem, but then I try not over do it with any lube. If there's that much graphite getting on the wheels, it's on the rails too and it would cause the driving wheels on a loco to slip.
I do think however a dusting of graphite couldn't carry more than a few milliamps. It would be like having resistor wheel sets. Is it enough to short out the interior lights?

Update:
I laid out a bit of graphite on a sheet of paper to measure the resistance and found resistance was infinity for a smuge of graphite with the test leads 1/16" apart. A resistance of 150,000 to 200,000 ohms was measured with a pile of graphite 1/32" high with the leads 1/16" apart. So, if there is enough graphite build up, it can cause a short of a sort.

[AntonioFP45]

Don,

Are you referring to the P2K wheelsets? Don't hold back, it's good to hear input about products. You're very observant and likely notice things that many guys ( me included) might overlook or not notice right away. It's good to know what "potential problems" to look for with a product. If there is a significant or performance difference between one product vs. another, I'll moan and groan and then pay the extra buck or two for the better product. I keep locomotives and cars for years, so I might as well get them right the first time.

Based on your above response, I just started checking my freight car fleet. So far, one P2K axle that's on an MDC hopper has a slight wobble when I spun it and looked at it with my eyes just a few inches from it. I'll post my results after I check all of my axles, as there are quite a few.

[Anonymous]

The next set of wheel sets that may need changing are on the locomotive. The Athearn locomotive sintered wheel sets are also good at collecting garp. NorthWest Short Line NWSL and JayBee have replacements sets.

[Anonymous]

I have to say I haven't noticed any wobble. Are we talking off center wheels (run-out) or wheels which are not perpendicular to the axis of spin (wobble). If I have noticed any wobble, I attributed it to too short of axles in the truck frame or the fact that the axels are plastic and may have been bent or warped. Checking for this problem is pretty easy to do, by giving the wheel set a spin, when they are first set in the trucks. I also let the truck roll down a grade to see how they roll, and watch the car when it is first placed in a train to see how it tracks and if there are any peculiarities. I agree, turned wheels will be truer, however, this is a more expensive way to manufacture and I am happy with what I get for my money with the LLP2K wheel sets.

[BRAKIE]

Guys,Here is what I highly recommend..Try several brands of metal wheels till you find the one that suits your needs.You see that way you will know first hand the difference in brands and will not need different opinions that *may* be bias.

[Virginian]

Although some will think it heresy, I do not think metal wheels make that much of a difference unless you have a problem with the plastic wheels on a piece. I have some plastic wheels on metal axles that roll as good as any all metal wheels I have. There is the sound, which some people really like, and the fact that some metal wheels rarely have any problems so they can be an excellent quick cure for the wobblies, etc. As to the dirt issue, plastic wheels will accumulate a build up much more so than metal wheels... but I am not sure this is a bad thing. Unless it is allowed to go untreated, I do not see this process spreading the dirt around on the track on my layout. In fact, it seems to clean the dirt off the rails. Of course, then you do need to clean the plastic wheels (I do it every two or three months), but I almost never have to touch the track other than a quick swipe every 8 or 10 months if I can remember to do it. No oil or any liquid touches my rails if I can help it, except laquer thinner when cleaning. If you are into the clipper oil school of thought, I would think that plastic wheels would be VERY bad actors on those layouts. I usually don't change them out unless I have problems (I got a 12 car pack from MDC and every single plastic wheelset had a flat spot - they replaced them) or I need to add electrical pickup. Rather than jumping into this head over dollars, I say make your own evaluations.

[Anonymous]

FYI, I checked my metal wheel packaging last night when I got home from work and incidentally they are Life-Like P2K metal wheel sets.

Trevor

[Anonymous]

There is a wheel charts on the REBOXX web site http://www.reboxx.com/wheelsets.htm that shows axle length. It's in a .pdf format so you need Adobe's Acrobat reader program to read it.

[twhite]

Guess I've been lucky--I've been converting with P2K's metal wheels and I haven't noticed either any wobbles OR dirt buildup on the treads (and with a garage railroad, dirt buildup can be a real pain!). I've also used Intermountain replacement wheels, and frankly can't see any difference betweem them and P2K's. What I HAVE seen is longer trains and a lot less 'bumpy' locomotive performance thanks to the metal wheels not depositing gunk like the plastic. I will say though, that I ran into the same problem as some of you others with early Athearn RTR cars--had to change the trucks out in order to get metal wheels. Luckily, the newer RTR's have good-quality metal wheels now, and I've had no problem. I keep a four-pack of P2k's on hand for newer kits--in fact, those Accurail cars just run like a dream with them!!
Tom [^][^]

[Anonymous]

Brakie, You figured it out, I own millions in stock of Life Like! But really, although I have bought almost 100% LLP2K wheel sets, my only bias was being able to replace all my plastic wheels with metal ones for the least amount of money. I also have some Kadee metal wheel sets and my branchline cars and Intermountain came with metal sets which I see no reason to change.

Virginian, My only reason for using metal wheels is; 1). I am convinced both my track and wheels stay cleaner. 2). I like the more scale appearence of the silver treads than the black treads of plastic.
Although you appear to be flying in the face of conventional wisdom, your choice of staying with plastic is your business and certainly sound.

If any of you decide to change over to metal wheels sets, don't throw your plastic wheels away. I have sold these on Ebay and am always amazed at how much they sell for! One container of 100 sold for $10.00.

[jacon12]

I purchased some used cars with different types of trucks, mostly plastic axels and wheels. When I changed one of them over to metal and set it back on the track, off it went by itself where it didn't before.
I wonder where that hill came from?
Jacon

[AggroJones]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DeSchane

BoRockhard, I can't agree with your assement of LLP2K metal wheel sets! Upon what are you basing your opinion? In this case, metal is metal! Of all the metal wheels out there LLP2K's are the most realistic, with their silver treads, lettering and a choice of chilled or flat backed. Money wise they are the best bang for the buck. I have more than 75 cars with these wheels on them and my track and treads are clean!

In rebuttle to your point, all I have ever heard on this topic is that Kadee's wheels are crap magnets! I have said this, as this an un-substantaited rumor I heard from one person!

Actually.......

I too have noticed my Proto wheels tend to gather dirt more quickly than my Intermountains or Kadees. Much more quickly.

Mabey we got a bad batch of 'em or somthing. Bo, where did you buy yours?

And all metal isn't created equal. If you paid attention, you'd see IM wheels are heavier than P2K.

[gmcrail]

Well, I'm going to go against the flow here, and recommend the Reboxx wheels, with the 0.088" wheel thickness. (And incidentally, RP-25 does not mandate a .110" wheel thickness. It only specifies the contour of the flange and fillet, and the degree of taper to the tread.). I recently picked up a couple of packages of these wheels at a local train show, and tried them out. They are unbelievably good looking, and I've had absolutely no derailments in which the wheel tread was at fault. My track is hardly flawless, either!

I had converted to P2K wheels almost a year ago, and was beginning to see some build-up of dirt on the treads. I can't verify that the new wheels will be better, but I can always hope. The biggest problem with the Reboxx wheels is that I'm finding grades where I never knew I had any![:D]

One tip: The "Exxact Socket Tool" (Reboxx) or the "Truck Tuner" (Micromark) is an essential factor in acheiving the absolute minimum rolling resistance. It cleans out and reshapes the bearing socket to a precise 60 degrees, while removing flash (and it's there, guys - you may need a good light and a strong magnifier to see it, but it's there).

Be sure to get the right axle length for the trucks you're using. Here's a link to a chart of the appropriate axle lengths to use for the Reboxx wheelsets.:
http://www.theoldandwearycarshop.com/Reboxxcharts.html

Have fun, and let's get rid of those over-fat wheel treads!

[Anonymous]

Years ago MDC made some very slippery wheel sets acetal wheels and metal axles in acetal side frames. (Fox sideframes on some of the oldtimers) Probably the best rolling trucks I've ever seen. I've some older metal wheel, axle and sideframe trucks that never rolled well.

You're trying to reduce friction. The harder and smaller the contact points between the rail, wheel and axle bearing the less friction. Too long axles are going to be generating extra thrust friction (horizontal) against the side frames until one or the other wears down to fit right. A slightly too short axle will be fine if it stays in, in fact, since it reduces the contact area it is going to roll a little better. Performance may suffer as it can move back and forth in the side frame. The sideframe tuners can't hurt if used correctly.

The smoother the wheel the less likely it is to pick up crud. Ergo the sintered Athearn wheels not smooth picked up crud.

Could be some of the crud being deposited is plastic from wheels wearing to the railhead profile. Some of the plastic wheels will pick it up. Assuming the axles are metal aand the side frames plastic or metal, metal wheels being harder will have less rolling friction.

Does graphite help? Might help some on metal axle to metal side frame. Probably not on plastic side frames

[Don Gibson]

SAN ANTONIO ROSA

Metal wheelsets roll better because ...

They carry a premim price and most supplier's pay attention to little things like wheel guaging, non magnetic axles, wheel centering, etc. because they can afford to!. Some DO it more than others.

The sideframe material actually contributes over 50% of the 'rolling' effectiveness, with engineering plastic's such as Delrin leaving the other's behind. I'ts just EASIER to give credit to magical 'Metal wheels. WHO besides EB (and Lindberg) gives you pure Delrin? I keep one car with EB trucks as a 'standard' to judge other's by. I find KATO trucks and INTERMOUNTAIN cars to be a close enough second. What % is the Intermountain's WHEELS vs the ACETAL sideframes, I cannot say, but the combination sure ROLLS.

10 years ago I converted all my cars to JB nickel plated brass wheels. They improved the rolling 50% - 100% depending on the sideframes. My reward's were far greater in getting wheelset's that were so much in guage that I stopped having to check them, and as the black plating wore off shiny treads emerged. Having wheels that are 100% NMRA also cut down derailment's I' ve past the 300 mark and when you figure adding these benefits @ $ 3 - $ 4 per car (I do them one at a time) the cost is small and the joy's enormous.

If someone is happy with P2K, that's fine. I like MDC cars

My experience with P2K was poor Q.C.
Out of 12 wheelset's 10 had irregular plastic axle point's causing car 'wobble'.

You asked..

PS: n6nvr has got it right !. I detect some engineering .

[jacon12]

In the above answers, what is meant by "side frame" and 'axle points' (plastic or otherwise?
Thanks,
Jacon

[Don Gibson]

STUDENT'S?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevnbety

I have heard that metal wheels have less "rolling resistance", therefore making it easier for your locomotives to pull a train than the plastic wheels that come on most rail cars. Is this true? If so, how much does it REALLY help? Thanks for replys, Kevin

This is because harder things have less rolling resistance. For example. Get on a hill and roll a marble down. Then roll a cotton ball down. Not a very good example, but you get the picture. Plastic wheels make a lot of the junk that builds up on your rails as well. Its sort of like mopping the floor and then jumping around with muddy shoes. (me and my examples!!![:D][:)][8D]). With metal wheels you can pull longer trains and your track stays cleaner. Plus they make that cool clickity-clack noise.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fire216

i have converted most of my fleet over to metal wheels since the club i belong to allows only metal to run on the club layouts....i have seen a dramatic improvement of performance AND appearance.....they weather nice...and sound great.....i switched over to proto 2000 wheels.....a little pricey for about eight bucks for only three cars worth....but i did not have to "gauge" any when installing.....now....what to do with all the plastic ones....hmm....maybe a new industry that makes axles?"?

I sold all my old plastic wheels on ebay. Only got $8 for them but hey. its better than just letting them sit there.

[grayfox1119]

If you rub a plastic comb through your hiar on a day when the air is very dry, you will pick up a static charge. This same principle works for plastic wheels. They will pick up a charge while rolling, and hence will attract any opposite charges particle on your tracks.
Metal on metal does not have electro-static charging, so that is why your tracks seem to be cleaner with metal wheels.
If you are picking up crud with metal wheels, I would suggest that you check the wheels when new for residue machining oil...very, very minute...but will cause this problem. You might want to clean the wheels first with ISO to make sure they clean. Remember, your fingers are a very good source of oil also, so you might want to use assembly gloves, like those used in electronics assembly lines if you have a skin oil problem.

[AntonioFP45]

Thanks Don!

My next wheel purchase will be InterMountains for sure as I'll be getting some of the Bowser HO hopper cars. I'll check out the Jay Bees as well.

Haven't finished checking the Proto axles on my fleet yet. but I'll finish soon as I only have about 30 cars.

10-4!

[Anonymous]

Single word responses: "STUDENTS" "UP"! Is this a coded message? Does it mean "People, rise against the machine"? Am I missing something, or did you all get decoder rings when you joined this forum?

[Anonymous]

AnthonyFP45, Are you really going to quit using LLP2K wheel sets because Mr. Gibson stated what he has?

Do your own due diligence and make a determination from that information. As I have said many times before, how do you know the person giving an opinion on this forum really knows what he is talking about? I am not saying this to disparage Mr. Gibson, or myself, for that matter! He has his opinions, I have mine and you should have yours, which are based on on determining the facts for yourself! At the same time, I think Intermountain, Kadee ReBOXX, LLP2K and NWSL all make worthy products deserving our attention and they are all very capible of producing rejects, also!

[Anonymous]

well you have convinced me, now I'm going to need to switch to metal wheels.




Floyd

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DeSchane

Single word responses: "STUDENTS"! ... Is this a coded message? ... Am I missing something, or did you all get decoder rings when you joined this forum?

I was referring to an old popular radio quiz show 'Kay Kaiser's College of Musical Knowledge'. This was a call for an audience answer when a contestant was stumped on a question. Perhap's when I spent my childhood listening to Kay, you were listening to 'Little Orphan Annie or 'Captain Minight' (decoder ring's).

Re: P2K wheels.

FACT Out of a new pkg. (of 12) 36" wheels 10 had wobble. Closer inspection revealed showed non-concentricity of the axle point's. They looked like dipped Hershy 'Kisses' under a magnifying glass - tails an all. These passed LL's inspection

OPINION I feel that a 20% yield is not in my best interest.. You do not have to concur.

Thank you for your interest.

[jrbernier]

Don, When did you purchase these P2K wheels? I bought 40 packets of them a little over a year ago. I check gauge on every 're-wheel' I do, and also roll them over a glass surface plate to look for wobble. I also do the ReBoxx 'tool' thing to all of my sideframes.
I have never had a bad wheel or axle for the P2K wheels(33"/solid back). I have over 100 cars with P2K wheels and have had no problems on the layout. I also have 40-50 cars with Intermountain or ReBoxx wheel sets. I like the solid metal axles on the Intermountain, but at $3.99/pack for P2K(M B Klein), the P2K's work fine. The engineering plastic used on the axles is much harder that what Kadee uses, and does not grind itself to oblivion like the Kadee axles do in metal sideframes.

Jim Bernier

[AntonioFP45]

Deshane,

What I'm saying is that I'm going to experiment with different wheel brands, instead of just staying with P2K. I bought a set of Jay Bee wheels. One of the wheels is warped! So even high quality items can have glitches as well.

Overall, great thread guys!

[csmith9474]

I have had a lot of problems with Jay Bee wheels wobbling. They are what TSP includes with their kits. I have a pretty good collection of Jay Bees that I replaced with Kadees.

[twhite]

Hm. I've heard a lot about P2K's on this post, so I'll throw in my three Deutchmarks worth. I've been replacing all of my plastic with P2K's, and I have a garage railroad that is not exactly very well insulated (to say the least) and that means dust on the rails sometimes, but I'm cleaning the rails FAR less frequently with the P2K's than I did with the plastic wheelsets. So if there's some evil secret about P2K's that nobody's telling, like they're receiving messages from Outer Space to corrode your railheads or something like that, please let me know, because so far, the 150 or so cars I've converted work just fine, the treads are still nice and shiny and so are the rails!
Tom [:P][:P]

[Anonymous]

Well folks as you know I'm not a very smart fellow and it takes me a little longer to climb the grade but
there's been a simple upgrade solution right under my nose.
The guys over at www.reboxx.com has taken the guess work out of wheel replacement. As we all have learned
from prior posts some axle lengths vary . The P2k's, IM's, KD's, Atlas(their caboose wheels only) and the guess work goes on.
I had my first experiment with www.reboxx.com metal replacements yesterday and today I feel stupid that
it has taken me so long to make this simple drop in discovery.

This resolution deserves a separate post.