Metal wheel sets. How much do they help?

[waltersrails]

About half of my rolling stock has metal wheels. I love them they keep my track cleaner and roll better.

[Misteslaus]

I too have switched over to metal wheelsets. i have some Kadee and some Proto2k. They both seem to work quite well. I've only got about ten cars left to switch on my collection (taken a couple of months to put aside money for just wheels - smile). I did find a couple of older cars which did not respond to the new wheels -- the axels were too thin for the new wheels. Instead I replaced the entire truck with nice Kadee sprung trucks -- gee they look nice and run well.

Fr. Stephen

[hdtvnut]

Sorry, missed that the Reboxx reamer was mentioned earlier. So
let me just add to opinion that it is a very valuable tool.

Hal

[hdtvnut]

I have recently replaced plastic wheels with both Kadees and P2K's on
about 75 cars of all different types, and have another 150 to go. I
don't find any difference, really, except the color.

Something not mentioned which is very important to get the wheels
to roll easily is reaming the journals, as most do not have the
exact conical shape to match the axles. I use the Reboxx reamer,
applying firm squeezing pressure and twisting until little or no
plastic is still being removed. I also put a film of light oil on
the cones, partly to prevent squeaking noises.

With this done, you should be able to spin metal wheels for upwards
of 3 seconds off the track; if not, usually more reaming is needed.
Cars should then coast very well on level track with a slight push.
Expect a major improvement in the number of cars a given engine can
pull, compared to cars with typical stock trucks.

When I'm taking the trouble to replace the wheels, it only makes
sense to me to do the whole job at once.

Hal

[Don Gibson]

Not to disagree:

I find ROLLING QUALITY is primarily affected by the friction between the axle & sideframe.

Kadee Metal Producys Co. made metal-wheeled trucks with metal side frames (surprise). They used plastic axles to reduce friction.

NWSL and Jay Bee machine wheels out of solid brass and nickel-silver. Their 'heavyness' improves tracking (via unsprung weight), but Improved Rolling depends on the sideframe materiel.

Lindberg trucks out-rolled ALL competative trucks (I still have a set). They had plastic wheels. polished brass axles, and DELRIN sideframes.

MRC and a few others switched to Delrin while 'tonnage' manufacturers switched to various plastics at reduced costs. EB (brothers) bought the Lindberg tooling and to my knowledge were the last ones to provide sprung trucks with pure Delrin sideframes. Their trucks sold for a dollar more than Kato's, which are unsprung - as are Atlas, and InterMountain. The brothers found out that 'cheaper' sells better, and their product is sadly no longer made.

As for the PROTO line. Their metal axle tips are coated with a slippery plastic to work with various sideframe materials. I found it applied unevenly - which promotes wobble. I only found 2 out of 12 didn't have problems. A 1/6 yield makes them too expensive for me.

I think cars that bounce as they roll destroy the illusion. Perhaps I'm too critical. Perhaps not. For others, sometimes it doesn't pay to look too closely.

[Tilden]

Yes, use the metal wheels and , as suggested above, get several types/brands of wheels and some wheel sets to retrofit your rolling stock.

[pcarrell]

Bump

[mondotrains]

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomotive3

Mondo.
We both agree that IM's & Reboxx's are made by the same manufacturer in China and appear almost identical in the packaging , langauge & price except the ball bearing sets.

The Reboxx info sheet state"The wheels and axle are brass and blackened to provide a prototypical appearence so I suspect that's the plating that wore off on the IM's.

Hi Chuck,
You're correct....the InterMountain wheelsets are blackened but I think they are first plated with a silver coating over the brass. Believe it or not, the plating peeled off on several wheelsets, revealing the brass underneath. I'm not talking about the light coating used to blacken the wheels; I'm talking about the actual plating.

But, to tell you the truth, the main reason I'm not using the InterMountain wheelsets is because they are too slick. I went to a lot of trouble to level my whole layout....heck I put refrigerator leveling "feet" under each of my benchwork legs and bought a huge level. I think my layout is as level as one could get it and still, I've found cars spotted at several places rolling because of the slickness of the InterMountain wheelsets. With the Kadees, they roll nicely, sound and look great and yet cars equipped with them won't roll on a siding.

Like we all know, some people drive a Chevy, others swear by their Buick and I drive a Toyota Avalon. We all have our preferences.

Mondo

[Anonymous]

Mondo.
We both agree that IM's & Reboxx's are made by the same manufacturer in China and appear almost identical in the packaging , langauge & price except the ball bearing sets.

The Reboxx info sheet state"The wheels and axle are brass and blackened to provide a prototypical appearence so I suspect that's the plating that wore off on the IM's.

[mondotrains]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RoyalOaker

I have been switching my cars over to metal wheels.

It's funny, With plastic wheels, when I left a car on a spur it would stay there. Now, with the metal wheels, the cars just role down hill, and I didn't even know that I had a hill for them to role down. [:I]

I had to re-level my table to prevent this.[:)]


I love the click, click sound also.

I am not sure about the cleaning part yet, because I have only been using them for a few weeks.

Hi Dave,
I know what you mean about some metal wheels allowing cars to roll even when you don't want them to. I had a posting last year about metal wheelsets and tried the ones most people recommended. I installed Proto 2000, Intermountain and Kadee wheelsets in several pieces of rolling stock. Both the Protos and the InterMountains were soooo slick that even with the slightest unlevel section of track or spur, the cars would roll. The bigger problem I discovered with both is that the plating wore off and the underlying metal (probably brass) showed through. I was especially disappointed with the Intermountains because they were the most expensive and yet the plating wore off. I decided as a result of my experimentation to use Kadees. However, I first use a wire brush in a Dremmel tool to clean off the brown plating. That way, they look prototypical because the wheel tread and flange look silver. What's great about the Kadees is that they are cast out of zinc and therefore, they are solid....no plating to wear off. And better yet, while they sound great and "track" well, they are not too slick and therefore my cars will stay put where I spot them.

Pricewise, they are comparable to the Proto 2000's and cheaper than the InterMountains.

Hope this helps.
Mondo

[mcouvillion]

I've started using InterMountain metal wheels almost exclusively on my rolling stock. I find the quality control very consistent, the price is acceptable, and they are readily available. I don't care for the metal wheels with the plastic axles. I've got a few and for the most part have replaced them with the IMs. I wasn't convinced for the longest time about the difference in performance until I realized the plastic wheels generate a static charge rolling down the track, and the metal wheels don't. Static attracts nearby dirt to the wheel, where it gets ground into the rail and the wheel tread. I suspect that the metal wheels with the plastic axles do the same, to a lesser degree. You have plastic rubbing on plastic (the axle in the side-frame), so this is how the charge is generated.

I'm on a campaign to rid my rolling stock of plastic wheels. I'm about half-way through.

Mark C.

[Anonymous]

I use LL and i have only cleaned the track once in 3 years! I can run my BLI with no problem and this isn't a small layout. Its around 9x11. thats on DCC with only one feeder.I think LL are pretty good. I use plastic wheels to make scrap loads. its about the only thing they are good for

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

I have on many occasions put a new out of the box car on the track with no modification and have it derail often. Just replacing the plastic wheels with metal often times will stop the derailments.
Terry

I have to ask the obvious question here. By saying "no modification" are you saying that you did or did not check the gauge of the wheelset against an NMRA standards gauge? With me this is automatic on new rolling stock, as well as checking the coupler and trip pin alignment against the Kadee gauge. I have yet to find ANY brand that fits the gauge perfectly every time.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wctransfer

One thing that peeved me a bit, was when i got a WC boxcar on Ebay, and the truck package wasnt opened, yet was missing a wheel. So i said woopie, i got other ones. Athearn ones that is(plastic BTW) and they didnt fit. It was a Walthers truck.

Alec

One of the many problems; not all the model car manufacturers use the same
truck. Lots of variables including "journal bore span" so Reboxx recognized the
inconsistency and set out to solve it.

[wctransfer]

One thing that peeved me a bit, was when i got a WC boxcar on Ebay, and the truck package wasnt opened, yet was missing a wheel. So i said woopie, i got other ones. Athearn ones that is(plastic BTW) and they didnt fit. It was a Walthers truck.

Alec

[Anonymous]

I recall his dilema. He automatically changed over to IM's non-BB's and then had to
change to KD's.
He also stated in that post that Reboxx made the the wheels for IM.
There's merit to that; the packaging, pricing and printed langauge is almost
identical to that of IM's package.
If so, major difference is that IM only has one axle length.

[scubaterry]

I have on many occasions put a new out of the box car on the track with no modification and have it derail often. Just replacing the plastic wheels with metal often times will stop the derailments. I just purchased ten 12 packs of LLP2K metal wheels to finsh converting the remaining cars in my fleet. And as one person mentioned you have to watch where you spot a car because with metal wheels it will tell you exactly where the tracks arn't level. They have a habit of rolling around on their own.
Terry

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

In the above answers, what is meant by "side frame" and 'axle points' (plastic or otherwise?
Thanks,
Jacon

Side frame is the part of the truck that is the side of it. This is an important part because that's where the axle bearings are located, in botht the model and the prototype

Axle point is just that, the point of the axle. The place where the axle meets the truck sideframe is the bearing point being refered to in the post. On the prototype, this is usually a friction bearing (actually a brass or bronze bushing) or the newer roller bearing.

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

SAN ANTONIO ROSA

Metal wheelsets roll better because ...

The sideframe material actually contributes over 50% of the 'rolling' effectiveness, with engineering plastic's such as Delrin leaving the other's behind. I'ts just EASIER to give credit to magical 'Metal wheels. WHO besides EB (and Lindberg) gives you pure Delrin? I keep one car with EB trucks as a 'standard' to judge other's by. I find KATO trucks and INTERMOUNTAIN cars to be a close enough second. What % is the Intermountain's WHEELS vs the ACETAL sideframes, I cannot say, but the combination sure ROLLS.

Wow, this bring flashbacks of the old Tyco ads from the late '60's when they first introduced their Delrin freight trucks. They compared them to their older metal framed trucks (both types, metal axles, plastic wheels) and with the new ones, the same locomotive could pull 3 to 4 times the number of cars. The type of sideframe definately makes a difference. Be aware, that all plastic frame trucks are not a good slippery engineering plastic like Delrin or Selcon.

[Anonymous]

Well folks as you know I'm not a very smart fellow and it takes me a little longer to climb the grade but
there's been a simple upgrade solution right under my nose.
The guys over at www.reboxx.com has taken the guess work out of wheel replacement. As we all have learned
from prior posts some axle lengths vary . The P2k's, IM's, KD's, Atlas(their caboose wheels only) and the guess work goes on.
I had my first experiment with www.reboxx.com metal replacements yesterday and today I feel stupid that
it has taken me so long to make this simple drop in discovery.

This resolution deserves a separate post.

[twhite]

Hm. I've heard a lot about P2K's on this post, so I'll throw in my three Deutchmarks worth. I've been replacing all of my plastic with P2K's, and I have a garage railroad that is not exactly very well insulated (to say the least) and that means dust on the rails sometimes, but I'm cleaning the rails FAR less frequently with the P2K's than I did with the plastic wheelsets. So if there's some evil secret about P2K's that nobody's telling, like they're receiving messages from Outer Space to corrode your railheads or something like that, please let me know, because so far, the 150 or so cars I've converted work just fine, the treads are still nice and shiny and so are the rails!
Tom [:P][:P]

[csmith9474]

I have had a lot of problems with Jay Bee wheels wobbling. They are what TSP includes with their kits. I have a pretty good collection of Jay Bees that I replaced with Kadees.

[AntonioFP45]

Deshane,

What I'm saying is that I'm going to experiment with different wheel brands, instead of just staying with P2K. I bought a set of Jay Bee wheels. One of the wheels is warped! So even high quality items can have glitches as well.

Overall, great thread guys!

[jrbernier]

Don, When did you purchase these P2K wheels? I bought 40 packets of them a little over a year ago. I check gauge on every 're-wheel' I do, and also roll them over a glass surface plate to look for wobble. I also do the ReBoxx 'tool' thing to all of my sideframes.
I have never had a bad wheel or axle for the P2K wheels(33"/solid back). I have over 100 cars with P2K wheels and have had no problems on the layout. I also have 40-50 cars with Intermountain or ReBoxx wheel sets. I like the solid metal axles on the Intermountain, but at $3.99/pack for P2K(M B Klein), the P2K's work fine. The engineering plastic used on the axles is much harder that what Kadee uses, and does not grind itself to oblivion like the Kadee axles do in metal sideframes.

Jim Bernier

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DeSchane

Single word responses: "STUDENTS"! ... Is this a coded message? ... Am I missing something, or did you all get decoder rings when you joined this forum?

I was referring to an old popular radio quiz show 'Kay Kaiser's College of Musical Knowledge'. This was a call for an audience answer when a contestant was stumped on a question. Perhap's when I spent my childhood listening to Kay, you were listening to 'Little Orphan Annie or 'Captain Minight' (decoder ring's).

Re: P2K wheels.

FACT Out of a new pkg. (of 12) 36" wheels 10 had wobble. Closer inspection revealed showed non-concentricity of the axle point's. They looked like dipped Hershy 'Kisses' under a magnifying glass - tails an all. These passed LL's inspection

OPINION I feel that a 20% yield is not in my best interest.. You do not have to concur.

Thank you for your interest.

[Anonymous]

well you have convinced me, now I'm going to need to switch to metal wheels.




Floyd

[Anonymous]

AnthonyFP45, Are you really going to quit using LLP2K wheel sets because Mr. Gibson stated what he has?

Do your own due diligence and make a determination from that information. As I have said many times before, how do you know the person giving an opinion on this forum really knows what he is talking about? I am not saying this to disparage Mr. Gibson, or myself, for that matter! He has his opinions, I have mine and you should have yours, which are based on on determining the facts for yourself! At the same time, I think Intermountain, Kadee ReBOXX, LLP2K and NWSL all make worthy products deserving our attention and they are all very capible of producing rejects, also!

[Anonymous]

Single word responses: "STUDENTS" "UP"! Is this a coded message? Does it mean "People, rise against the machine"? Am I missing something, or did you all get decoder rings when you joined this forum?

[AntonioFP45]

Thanks Don!

My next wheel purchase will be InterMountains for sure as I'll be getting some of the Bowser HO hopper cars. I'll check out the Jay Bees as well.

Haven't finished checking the Proto axles on my fleet yet. but I'll finish soon as I only have about 30 cars.

10-4!