ATLANTIC CENTRALThe days of basement dealers are long gone.
The big internet players with deep discounts (Trainworld, ModelTrainStuff, ToyTrainHeaven, etc)..." are in many cases also brick and mortar stores, or were at one time.
I've been a manufacturer, mail order and internet sales business in years past (though not in the model railroading world). I know how it works.
The big discounts come from buying direct from the manufacturer, getting the very best volume deal, and giving the customer what was once the distributors markup, and then some.
Once you get past Walthers, Athearn, Bachmann, Atlas, most of these companies are amazingly small operations. And even those companies are not "big" in the scheme of business these days.
Do I think these companies are predatory in their pricing structures? Not generally, no, but I'm also not going to make excuses for them.
And now, like you, Sheldon, I'm done with this discussion.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
SeeYou190 riogrande5761 You guys who have hobby time, I envy you. You guys that have a layout room already, I envy you. I have the time, money, and supplies. Just missing one piece. -Kevin
riogrande5761 You guys who have hobby time, I envy you.
You guys that have a layout room already, I envy you.
I have the time, money, and supplies. Just missing one piece.
-Kevin
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain If people would take the time to understand the OP's main premise, it is that the recent production of Athearn passenger cars, specifically the Amtrak Surfliner, have MSRPs as high as a $199.99. Now, if you are a passenger train enthusiast, specifically an Amtrak fan, who wouldn't be interested in the Surfliners. But, a thousand bucks to acquire a 5-car set is expensive, is it not? Sheldon, since you are quoting me, I hope that I did not leave you or anyone else with the impression that manufacturers are trying to rip off customers with outlandish prices. That would be financial suicide for the manufacturers. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain If people would take the time to understand the OP's main premise, it is that the recent production of Athearn passenger cars, specifically the Amtrak Surfliner, have MSRPs as high as a $199.99. Now, if you are a passenger train enthusiast, specifically an Amtrak fan, who wouldn't be interested in the Surfliners. But, a thousand bucks to acquire a 5-car set is expensive, is it not?
richhotrain If people would take the time to understand the OP's main premise, it is that the recent production of Athearn passenger cars, specifically the Amtrak Surfliner, have MSRPs as high as a $199.99. Now, if you are a passenger train enthusiast, specifically an Amtrak fan, who wouldn't be interested in the Surfliners. But, a thousand bucks to acquire a 5-car set is expensive, is it not?
Sheldon, since you are quoting me, I hope that I did not leave you or anyone else with the impression that manufacturers are trying to rip off customers with outlandish prices. That would be financial suicide for the manufacturers.
Rich
No, I don't think you feel that way, or that you ever implied that. But many others seem to think that based on their responses.
The one irony I have found about people is that the cynical ones who think people are ripping them off, are ones who allow their own greed to set them up to get ripped off, or who are themselves, "opportunistic" in their own business practices.
I will repeat this again - I have been self employed most of my life. I walk away from customers who are not comfortable with my prices or want to negotiate - I'm booked until September or October right now.......
We have no quarrel or qualm with those who sell for less, they know what their work is worth.
Sheldon
Alton Junction
Pruitt NittanyLion Also cheaper because they're far less detailed. They're not exactly comparable products between, say, the Accurail two bay covered hopper and American Limited's two bay. Sure, "Cadillac" RTR has a lot more detail. You pay for it, too. But less detailed RTR, like Walthers Mainline and Athearn Roundhouse are more comparable to the Accurail-level kits in detail, and are "only" around $15 more expensive than the Accurail kits. The much more detailed (and more time consuming) Tichy kits, roughly on a par with the more expensive RTR, are roughly the same cost as Accurail's. That puts them at well under half the Cadillac RTR costs. Accurail found a cost savings somewhere, perhaps the tooling. Others,l who are modestly more detailed, like Bowser, did discontinue kits specifically because the price for a finished model is effectively the same as a kit. Cost savings? Not really. Accurail's kits have nearly tripled in price in the last 15 years. In that time, inflation has increased prices overall by "only" 48%. Where does that other 152% increase come from? ATLANTIC CENTRAL ANYONE who thinks these companies are just charging whatever they want are simply wrong. If fact, total markups from cost to produce to customer are less today percentage wise then they have ever been - a key reason why there are so fewer hobby shops. If it were only that simple. First off, the primary reason there are fewer hobby shops is because a brick and mortar store can't compete on price with a guy who sells out of his basement on the internet. It costs a lot of money for a functional storefront, which the internet seller does not have. So for the same profit level, he can sell much cheaper. People bemoan the demise of most hobby shops, but most of those same people could could be found buying on the internet because it's cheaper, pounding nails into the shops' coffins. As far as why the prices have gone up so much in the hobby - Yeah, costs have gone up and the profit margins aren't exorbitant these days, but the reasons aren't always what many would think. Why has "cost to produce" ballooned so precipitously? For one thing, overhead costs have skyrocketed because the bigger companies have bought into the modern corporate culture. That means lots of management - vice president of this, director of that, etc. Those heads expect to be paid, and paid well, or they'll leave for greener pastures (outside model railroading most likely). All those non-producing people and the trappings that go with them cost real money. That money comes from you and me. The days of Irv Athearn and Gordon Varney - the big guys who were in it for love of the hobby, and are satisfied if they can make a decent living, are gone. Sure, there are still folks around who make hobby products because they love to do so, but the "big boys" do it for the money. Many of the smaller manufacturers have jumped on the price hike bandwagon in true "me too" fashion.
NittanyLion Also cheaper because they're far less detailed. They're not exactly comparable products between, say, the Accurail two bay covered hopper and American Limited's two bay.
Sure, "Cadillac" RTR has a lot more detail. You pay for it, too. But less detailed RTR, like Walthers Mainline and Athearn Roundhouse are more comparable to the Accurail-level kits in detail, and are "only" around $15 more expensive than the Accurail kits. The much more detailed (and more time consuming) Tichy kits, roughly on a par with the more expensive RTR, are roughly the same cost as Accurail's. That puts them at well under half the Cadillac RTR costs.
Accurail found a cost savings somewhere, perhaps the tooling. Others,l who are modestly more detailed, like Bowser, did discontinue kits specifically because the price for a finished model is effectively the same as a kit.
Cost savings? Not really. Accurail's kits have nearly tripled in price in the last 15 years. In that time, inflation has increased prices overall by "only" 48%. Where does that other 152% increase come from?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL ANYONE who thinks these companies are just charging whatever they want are simply wrong. If fact, total markups from cost to produce to customer are less today percentage wise then they have ever been - a key reason why there are so fewer hobby shops.
If it were only that simple. First off, the primary reason there are fewer hobby shops is because a brick and mortar store can't compete on price with a guy who sells out of his basement on the internet. It costs a lot of money for a functional storefront, which the internet seller does not have. So for the same profit level, he can sell much cheaper. People bemoan the demise of most hobby shops, but most of those same people could could be found buying on the internet because it's cheaper, pounding nails into the shops' coffins.
As far as why the prices have gone up so much in the hobby - Yeah, costs have gone up and the profit margins aren't exorbitant these days, but the reasons aren't always what many would think.
Why has "cost to produce" ballooned so precipitously? For one thing, overhead costs have skyrocketed because the bigger companies have bought into the modern corporate culture. That means lots of management - vice president of this, director of that, etc. Those heads expect to be paid, and paid well, or they'll leave for greener pastures (outside model railroading most likely). All those non-producing people and the trappings that go with them cost real money. That money comes from you and me. The days of Irv Athearn and Gordon Varney - the big guys who were in it for love of the hobby, and are satisfied if they can make a decent living, are gone. Sure, there are still folks around who make hobby products because they love to do so, but the "big boys" do it for the money. Many of the smaller manufacturers have jumped on the price hike bandwagon in true "me too" fashion.
Well Mark, I don't think so. Even the biggest companies in this business have pretty small staffs of people. But I'm not really in the mood to argue that point past what I will say here.
The days of basement dealers are long gone. The big internet players with deep discounts (Trainworld, ModelTrainStuff, ToyTrainHeaven, etc) are in many cases also brick and mortar stores, or were at one time.
The big discounts come from buying direct from the manufacturer, getting the very best volume deal, and giving the customer what was once the distributors markup, and then some. Little shops cannot afford to buy direct, let alone get the best deal - so it has turned into "go big, or go home".
Bachmann is the only publicly traded company in world making model trains, there are none in the US, not even Athearn's parent Horizon.
AND in fact, today Athearn/Horizon is the one company in this business that has strict requirements that dealers be real full time businesses - unlike days of old. And their price levels are nearly the same to all customers big and small.
Companies like Spring Mills Depot are part time operations by guys who have "real" jobs that feed their families.......
But you are welcome to believe whatever you like. I'm past the end of my interest level in this thread, and in most of what goes on here.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL FRRYKid Mentioning RTR models, as stated, most of them are actually RTR but there are a few out there that aren't in the sense that the lettering in one way or another isn't accurate. I have a few so-called RTR models from a few different companies who shall remain nameless that I have needed to fix the lettering on due to inaccuracies. A few cars I have had incorrect numbers. Another two cars from one company had the lettering styles reversed. Thankfully I'm a good enough modeler that fixing them was too big a headache. However, those were recent enough releases that the companies could have looked up pictures online to avoid that problem at the very least, IMHO. I have a few cara that I was given recently that the roadname and number aren't the right style or font or even in the wrong place and they are supposedly RTR as well. Another one that I bought recently is an 80's era kit with the wrong number but that era didn't seem to be as prototype accurate as we are now, again IMHO. They are older so I don't know about the resources involved. What? The term RTR (ready to run) has nothing to do with prototypical accuracy. In the era I model, 1954, you would not have many pieces of equipment on your layout if you depended on all of them being prototypically correct to that level of accuracy. RTR simply means "fully assembled" accurate or not. You know, like the equipment in evey train set sold throughout history...... Sheldon
FRRYKid Mentioning RTR models, as stated, most of them are actually RTR but there are a few out there that aren't in the sense that the lettering in one way or another isn't accurate. I have a few so-called RTR models from a few different companies who shall remain nameless that I have needed to fix the lettering on due to inaccuracies. A few cars I have had incorrect numbers. Another two cars from one company had the lettering styles reversed. Thankfully I'm a good enough modeler that fixing them was too big a headache. However, those were recent enough releases that the companies could have looked up pictures online to avoid that problem at the very least, IMHO. I have a few cara that I was given recently that the roadname and number aren't the right style or font or even in the wrong place and they are supposedly RTR as well. Another one that I bought recently is an 80's era kit with the wrong number but that era didn't seem to be as prototype accurate as we are now, again IMHO. They are older so I don't know about the resources involved.
Mentioning RTR models, as stated, most of them are actually RTR but there are a few out there that aren't in the sense that the lettering in one way or another isn't accurate. I have a few so-called RTR models from a few different companies who shall remain nameless that I have needed to fix the lettering on due to inaccuracies. A few cars I have had incorrect numbers. Another two cars from one company had the lettering styles reversed. Thankfully I'm a good enough modeler that fixing them was too big a headache. However, those were recent enough releases that the companies could have looked up pictures online to avoid that problem at the very least, IMHO.
I have a few cara that I was given recently that the roadname and number aren't the right style or font or even in the wrong place and they are supposedly RTR as well. Another one that I bought recently is an 80's era kit with the wrong number but that era didn't seem to be as prototype accurate as we are now, again IMHO. They are older so I don't know about the resources involved.
What? The term RTR (ready to run) has nothing to do with prototypical accuracy.
In the era I model, 1954, you would not have many pieces of equipment on your layout if you depended on all of them being prototypically correct to that level of accuracy.
RTR simply means "fully assembled" accurate or not. You know, like the equipment in evey train set sold throughout history......
What I was more leaning toward with that is if a company takes the time to research a car for release as an RTR and with as much as computers are used for research, you would think they would make them accurate so that more people would buy them.
I'm not a rivet counter but I do ask that they at least get the lettering in the right style and the road numbers correct. I do have one car that doesn't have the right scheme. It is a late 80's early 90s car and a blend of two schemes but I'm willing to live with it as it's not a "star" on the layout. (I seem to remember an MR article to that point within the last few years.) That would make sense, but then of course many companies don't want to make sense, they want to make cents.
I model 1972 to 1980. (A few years after the BN merger to the SLSF merger.) While that gives more rolling stock flexibility, I still have to watch for foobies. What I would love though is to have more HO scale vehicles from that era that are affordable for those of us that don't have a great budget.
NittanyLionAlso cheaper because they're far less detailed. They're not exactly comparable products between, say, the Accurail two bay covered hopper and American Limited's two bay.
ATLANTIC CENTRALANYONE who thinks these companies are just charging whatever they want are simply wrong. If fact, total markups from cost to produce to customer are less today percentage wise then they have ever been - a key reason why there are so fewer hobby shops.
So... how many other hobbies worth of material can be added to the expense of being a model railroader?
For me, it is several.
1) Woodworking: I enjoy working with wood. I am not a carpenter. However, I have a lot of good woodworkling tools, and this is a bit of an expensive hobby too.
2) Photography: I get a lot of enjoyment from photography, and I enjoy photographing my model trains. I am not any better a photographer than I am a woodworker, so that is a hobby too. It is expensive.
3) Figure Painting: What this hobby costs does not get discussed much. It is expensive, but all the supplies roll into model railroading, and I love painting figures.
What else?
If I add up these additional complimentary hobbies to my model railroad bill, I might go into spasms.
Travel, computers, so on...
Living the dream.
richhotrainIf people would take the time to understand the OP's main premise, it is that the recent production of Athearn passenger cars, specifically the Amtrak Surfliner, have MSRPs as high as a $199.99. Now, if you are a passenger train enthusiast, specifically an Amtrak fan, who wouldn't be interested in the Surfliners. But, a thousand bucks to acquire a 5-car set is expensive, is it not?
Yes it is expensive, so are brass passenger cars.
One point is this, People like myself, Paul3, John Mock, who have inside experiance in this business know that these prices are not arbitrary, capricious or predatory. They are based on "cost to produce and deliver" plus a reasonable return on investment/profit.
The customers spent a number of decades responding to, and asking for more, RTR with high levels of detail and accuracy.
And at first it was done when production costs overseas were dramiticly lower and pricing was very attractive.
Now the global economy has shifted, as often happens with having items manufactured in countries with lower costs. Those costs are catching up.
I'm not buying any Surfliners, I would not be buying them if they were $10 each....
I do suspect part of the high price is the limited market - Athearn has an idea of how many they can sell, and they have amortized the tooling based on that. Maybe its a small batch due to the limited appeal of the product?
ANYONE who thinks these companies are just charging whatever they want are simply wrong. If fact, total markups from cost to produce to customer are less today percentage wise then they have ever been - a key reason why there are so fewer hobby shops.
So when the OP asserts that prices will "kill" the hobby, he implies the manufacturers actually have a choice and could lower the prices - they can't.
If they lower the prices any more (lower markups for them and retailers) they will go out of business.
They have two choices, make the product at one detail level and charge that price, or make it at a lower detail level and charge less.
Do not hold your breath waiting for every model of every prototype to be offered in three different "tiers" of detail and cost. We already have way too much duplication of effort in this industry.
And the consumers have two choices - buy or not buy.
AEP528 As usual, everybody wants to spout opinions but not talk about actual modelling. Exactly three threads related to actual modelling in the General forum have had a post in the last 12 hours. The Layout and layout building forum hasn't had a post in 9 hours, Electronics 17 hours and Prototype 10 hours. No wonder these forums are dying.
As usual, everybody wants to spout opinions but not talk about actual modelling. Exactly three threads related to actual modelling in the General forum have had a post in the last 12 hours. The Layout and layout building forum hasn't had a post in 9 hours, Electronics 17 hours and Prototype 10 hours. No wonder these forums are dying.
You have only posted 18 times over the past 14+ years. Why not tell us something about your modeling efforts?
riogrande5761You guys who have hobby time, I envy you.
John-NYBW It comes down to whether you want to spend your time or spend your money.
It comes down to whether you want to spend your time or spend your money.
In my case, I presently have almost no hobby time this year - and now that my wife and I are taking care of my 90 year old mother, it may be months before I get any time to work on trains or a layout. So I spend my money instead.
You guys who have hobby time, I envy you.
NorthBrit NittanyLion Also cheaper because they're far less detailed. (This thread) In a nutshell!!! More detail the higher the price. More extras; sound, lights etc. Even bigger price. In days long gone we bought the basic model and added the finer details if we wanted to. David
NittanyLion Also cheaper because they're far less detailed.
Also cheaper because they're far less detailed.
You forgot higher labor costs and shipping costs in the past year or so which have boosted model train prices a great deal over just the things you mentioned. Add to that now inflation.
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
John-NYBW NittanyLion Pruitt I still think kits will make a comeback, simply because of price and quality. This presupposes there is any appreciable savings in paying someone to put the parts in the box versus quickly gluing the parts together before putting them in the box. Accurail freight car kits are considerably cheaper than any decent RTR. Woodland Scenics makes many of their structures available in both kit and built-up version and the kits are much cheaper. So yes it is much cheaper to put the parts in the box than to glue them together. It comes down to whether you want to spend your time or spend your money.
NittanyLion Pruitt I still think kits will make a comeback, simply because of price and quality. This presupposes there is any appreciable savings in paying someone to put the parts in the box versus quickly gluing the parts together before putting them in the box.
Pruitt I still think kits will make a comeback, simply because of price and quality.
This presupposes there is any appreciable savings in paying someone to put the parts in the box versus quickly gluing the parts together before putting them in the box.
Accurail freight car kits are considerably cheaper than any decent RTR. Woodland Scenics makes many of their structures available in both kit and built-up version and the kits are much cheaper. So yes it is much cheaper to put the parts in the box than to glue them together.
Also cheaper because they're far less detailed. They're not exactly comparable products between, say, the Accurail two bay covered hopper and American Limited's two bay.
AEP528As usual, everybody wants to spout opinions but not talk about actual modelling.
Apparently the Spring and Summer months are a down-time for a lot of modelers. I don't understand that, but apparently that is what happens.
Weekend Photo Fun is the best place to see what people are up to. I would love to see you contribute there.
There used to be a lot more people asking questions, but that changed.
There is a lot more to Model Railroading than just modeling. The variety of topics, like this one, reflect that.
Morning
Some good points rrebell and others as well. The Fairs used to have much more interesting exibits if you were to ask me. Now that Stix mentioned it, I do remember that nice old guy with the Ho layout when I was quite young. I guess I never knew what happened with that building but now I do. I really admired the one that PC101 posted with the model railroad modeling contest.
Hey, There ain't nothing wrong with a display of the 6th graders art projects with one taking the Blue Ribbon in the contest. A model railroad modeling contest would be right up my alley just like an award-winning shiny rutabaga is to a farmers interests.
As far as thread topics having a heartbeat and swaying off-topic from time to time, similar to a few sidings off a main line on a railroad. I would have to say, I think it's the reason why some threads are more interesting than others. The numbers tend to show that when they are and it doesn't really bother me as long as things get back on track again sooner or later. Maybe some Forum members can't relate to the certain thread topic at hand but can relate to something that was said, often making that subject a bit more interesting.
As far as a few complaining about too much complaining I don't know but I think one of the monitors even made reference to something like that. The whole Forum is based on opinions. If one doesn't agree with someone else's, it still should be respected and then can be taken with a grain of salt.
It isn't that one person is right and everyone else is wrong, ...Ever. Just different points of view and certainly nothing to get one's feathers ruffled over
TF
southernpacificgs4 The Pullman-Standard Bi-Level commuter cars. For a standard car the price is 89.98 dollars and for a lighted cars it is 99.98 dollars.
The Pullman-Standard Bi-Level commuter cars.
For a standard car the price is 89.98 dollars and for a lighted cars it is 99.98 dollars.
It's funny that this topic came up when it did. I was at our Scout meeting night before last, and one of the parents was upset that her oldest son had wrecked two of his Metra cars by sending them over the side of his layout. She complained that was almost $200 down the drain. I felt bad overhearing her story, so I asked her about the layout and what happened. She said that her son had a layout built by his dad and he really wanted the Metra cars, but he had to show responsibility to earn them. She said he did really well with the train set cars he had and with no major derailments, was able to get the cars for his birthday. I had worked with her son on his Railroading Merit Badge, so I know he was responsible. He said he wasn't even going fast, they just derailed right off the side of the layout as he was running them. The mom said she called the hobby shop and asked what could have caused that. She said that after the initial skepticism that he was going too fast died down, she said she was told the radii were probably too small for the cars. Her next question was, why does that matter? She then got, in her words, "mainsplained" about track radii and other things. She said that no one at the hobby shop told her it was a thing when she bought the cars. She just went right up to the shelf, picked up the cars, and then paid for them. No one said anything. First she was dismayed about how expensive the cars were, but also that if her son wanted to run them, then he'd have to upgrade his track now too.
I would agree that the entry level costs are getting to be too much. But there's also a distinct lack of low cost entry level equipment. You used to be able to walk into almost any department store and buy a train set or other model railroad equipment and supplies. I see Bachmann HO sets at Menards around Christmas, and that's about it. WalMart used to carry the Athearn John Deere sets in the early 2000's, and nothing really since. But if someone wants to go just beyond the train sets, what is that next step? A lot of people say Accurail or Athearn blue box kits, but those are becoming exceedingly rare and more expensive, at least in the hobby shops I frequent. But google searches bring up lots of forums and Facebook groups, where the bluebox kits and accurail kits, and Bachmann silver series, are derided because the details aren't up to par or the paint isn't accurate. How is someone new to model railroading supposed to take that information? Maybe they did buy that Bachmann set from Menards, but now see several old farts on line call it "Botchmann". I see several people say to "do your research" but there's too many differing opinions that the cognitive dissonance becomes hard to sort through.
Before I go back on topic, going off topic here is much more important than other places as we all start with a common bond, Model Railroading. On another note, that retirement shortcut had, to me, weird advice talking about spending your nest egg at 4% a year. Much better to spend non of it and live off the dividends if you can, never know how long you need, my mom is 100. Now back to trains, I wonder how the loss of train layouts at county fairs has affected the numbers of people in the hobby? Also it is sad to see what happened here is happening it seems everywhere, county fairs are going the route of the circus.
richhotrain Paul3 Well, I think off topic posts are a bad thing. There's millions of places on the internet to talk about whatever you want with whomever you want. There are just a few model railroading forums. Instead of ruining a rare model railroad forum, why not post at an applicable place online?etcetera ------ Well stated, Paul. From the beginning, I found this to be an interesting thread. Obviously, so have others. 5 pages, over 4500 views, and over 140 replies. Etcetera -----=- Rich
Paul3 Well, I think off topic posts are a bad thing. There's millions of places on the internet to talk about whatever you want with whomever you want. There are just a few model railroading forums. Instead of ruining a rare model railroad forum, why not post at an applicable place online?etcetera ------
Well, I think off topic posts are a bad thing. There's millions of places on the internet to talk about whatever you want with whomever you want. There are just a few model railroading forums. Instead of ruining a rare model railroad forum, why not post at an applicable place online?etcetera ------
Well stated, Paul. From the beginning, I found this to be an interesting thread. Obviously, so have others. 5 pages, over 4500 views, and over 140 replies.
Etcetera -----=-
David
Paul3 Well, I think off topic posts are a bad thing. There's millions of places on the internet to talk about whatever you want with whomever you want. There are just a few model railroading forums. Instead of ruining a rare model railroad forum, why not post at an applicable place online?I was a long time lurker and contributer to the newsgroup (remember them?) rec.models.railroad which was unmoderated. After 9-11, it took a turn as folks started posting more and more non-railroad topics. When told to knock it off, they would reply, "There are more important things in life than model trains." While that is true, they should have taken their conversations to those applicable groups. Instead, they polluted r.m.r with their off topic posts, driving people who wanted to talk trains to moderated forums like the Atlas Forum or here at MR to avoid them. I'd hate to see that happen here.And BTW, I'm also a 30-year member of my large model railroad club. Yes, topics frequently wander from trains at the club and most times it's fine. But more than a couple members have had to be spoken to by the president of the club and asked to either knock it off or tone it down because some off topic discussions were driving some members to avoid coming to the club to avoid the people in question. It's a model train club, not a debating society.
Well, I think off topic posts are a bad thing. There's millions of places on the internet to talk about whatever you want with whomever you want. There are just a few model railroading forums. Instead of ruining a rare model railroad forum, why not post at an applicable place online?I was a long time lurker and contributer to the newsgroup (remember them?) rec.models.railroad which was unmoderated. After 9-11, it took a turn as folks started posting more and more non-railroad topics. When told to knock it off, they would reply, "There are more important things in life than model trains." While that is true, they should have taken their conversations to those applicable groups. Instead, they polluted r.m.r with their off topic posts, driving people who wanted to talk trains to moderated forums like the Atlas Forum or here at MR to avoid them. I'd hate to see that happen here.And BTW, I'm also a 30-year member of my large model railroad club. Yes, topics frequently wander from trains at the club and most times it's fine. But more than a couple members have had to be spoken to by the president of the club and asked to either knock it off or tone it down because some off topic discussions were driving some members to avoid coming to the club to avoid the people in question. It's a model train club, not a debating society.
The thread has survived in spite of threats from a few guys to try to lock the thread. A few others have simply taken the thread off topic without any good reason. There is no forum policy prohibiting statements about how expensive model railroading can be, and why should there be any such prohibitions? This is a matter of complainers complaining about complainers. If nothing else, it disrespects the OP.
If people would take the time to understand the OP's main premise, it is that the recent production of Athearn passenger cars, specifically the Amtrak Surfliner, have MSRPs as high as a $199.99. Now, if you are a passenger train enthusiast, specifically an Amtrak fan, who wouldn't be interested in the Surfliners. But, a thousand bucks to acquire a 5-car set is expensive, is it not?
What is it about this topic that sets off some folks?
Well, the thread is back on topic.
When you compare the cost of a high end, fully featured diesel (Rapido as example since their price is currently the highest) at $306 (10% local store discount) today versus the typical Athearn Blue Box diesel of 1986, which didn't have any of the cool features or extreme detailing (at $18 to $30 discounted price then), they are cheaper today and a MUCH better value per hour of wage spent to buy them.
In 1986, I made $3.35 an hour minimum wage working for English's Model RR Supply (Bowser). You had to be responsible as working in a real machine shop could be dangerous--so not just any 18 year old (PA state law) could even get hired. Not at all like today's fast food restaurants in and around Harrisburg where the employees are smoking dope while allegedly waiting on you in the drive through (my son noted kids he knows actually doing that) for significantly higher pay.
If one actually shops smart and pays attention one can score the very best of today's diesels for significantly better than 10% off retail, at which point they are a bargain for what they actually provide.
People need to actually go to a train show and shop a bit rather than the immediate gratification of buying from overpriced ebay stuff. Even the small local shows can have deals.
Oh--and the $13 or $14 per hour drive through wage today will still buy the plain dc/dcc ready diesels for practically dirt cheap as compared to historic prices, and they will still be much better models and much better running.
Case closed.
John
Paul3Pruitt, I know you didn't say anything about modeled era. I did. The point was that we both think the hobby will change. You think it will change back to inexpensive models (and kits) like the '60s and '70s because when today's older modelers die off, all the big money disappears with them. I disagree. I think it will change by era modeled and that the current selection of high-end RTR models will continue. Why? Because as today's older modelers die off, they will be replaced by the current middle-aged modelers, who will then have disposable income.I also think that traditional kits won't make a comeback because not enough people will want to build kits regardless of price. Few people have the patience to build up the skills and tools needed to become excellent kit builders. And in today's ever decreasing attention span population, kits just won't be of interest to enough folks to make them economically in bulk numbers. That's why I think 3D printing will be a bigger deal. Those few that can (and want to) build kits will be able to just print what they need. Everyone else will still be buying RTR. But as you pointed out, that is in the future until 3D printing improves.
I know you didn't say anything about modeled era. I did. The point was that we both think the hobby will change. You think it will change back to inexpensive models (and kits) like the '60s and '70s because when today's older modelers die off, all the big money disappears with them. I disagree. I think it will change by era modeled and that the current selection of high-end RTR models will continue. Why? Because as today's older modelers die off, they will be replaced by the current middle-aged modelers, who will then have disposable income.I also think that traditional kits won't make a comeback because not enough people will want to build kits regardless of price. Few people have the patience to build up the skills and tools needed to become excellent kit builders. And in today's ever decreasing attention span population, kits just won't be of interest to enough folks to make them economically in bulk numbers. That's why I think 3D printing will be a bigger deal. Those few that can (and want to) build kits will be able to just print what they need. Everyone else will still be buying RTR. But as you pointed out, that is in the future until 3D printing improves.
There's a ballooning of number of retired folk right now, because all us baby boomers have, or shortly will, retire. Many of us have decent pensions as well as Social Security income. Pensions are becoming a thing of the past, and 401k's are not replacing them to a very great extent. Median retirement savings for folks in their 60's is $172,000 (https://due.com/blog/average-retirement-savings-by-age/). With lifespans increasing, that's not a lot, even with Social Security added in the mix. With pensions becoming less and less common, that means discretionary income in retirement years (in terms of buying power) will drop over the next couple decades. Many modelers will have a smaller modeling budget, again in terms of buying power, than we have now. And if inflation continues at it's current breakneck pace, that will only exacerbate the problem.
So people may not want to build kits, but for many it might be their only viable option.
And I think (but I'm not sure - correct me if I'm wrong) there are more and more of us who have this attitude - I'm not going to spend $60+ dollars on an RTR boxcar - period. Or $25 for a Chevy Impala. I could afford to, but I'd rather spend 90 minutes or so assembling an Accurail kit I purchased for less than $10 15 years ago and use the difference for something else. Yeah, those RTR offerings are, generally speaking, beautiful models. But they're also, generally speaking, just too darned costly.
Personally I think retirement spending on model railroading will crater in about ten years and take a couple decades to recover, if it ever does. I probably won't live long enough to see the recovery, but hey! If I'm right, just call me Nostradamus! (If I'm wrong - and I hope I am - just call me dummy).
Pruitt,I know you didn't say anything about modeled era. I did. The point was that we both think the hobby will change. You think it will change back to inexpensive models (and kits) like the '60s and '70s because when today's older modelers die off, all the big money disappears with them. I disagree. I think it will change by era modeled and that the current selection of high-end RTR models will continue. Why? Because as today's older modelers die off, they will be replaced by the current middle-aged modelers, who will then have disposable income.I also think that traditional kits won't make a comeback because not enough people will want to build kits regardless of price. Few people have the patience to build up the skills and tools needed to become excellent kit builders. And in today's ever decreasing attention span population, kits just won't be of interest to enough folks to make them economically in bulk numbers. That's why I think 3D printing will be a bigger deal. Those few that can (and want to) build kits will be able to just print what they need. Everyone else will still be buying RTR. But as you pointed out, that is in the future until 3D printing improves.John-NYBW,Well, I think off topic posts are a bad thing. There's millions of places on the internet to talk about whatever you want with whomever you want. There are just a few model railroading forums. Instead of ruining a rare model railroad forum, why not post at an applicable place online?I was a long time lurker and contributer to the newsgroup (remember them?) rec.models.railroad which was unmoderated. After 9-11, it took a turn as folks started posting more and more non-railroad topics. When told to knock it off, they would reply, "There are more important things in life than model trains." While that is true, they should have taken their conversations to those applicable groups. Instead, they polluted r.m.r with their off topic posts, driving people who wanted to talk trains to moderated forums like the Atlas Forum or here at MR to avoid them. I'd hate to see that happen here.And BTW, I'm also a 30-year member of my large model railroad club. Yes, topics frequently wander from trains at the club and most times it's fine. But more than a couple members have had to be spoken to by the president of the club and asked to either knock it off or tone it down because some off topic discussions were driving some members to avoid coming to the club to avoid the people in question. It's a model train club, not a debating society.
NYVTRR I notice that some of the young model railroaders on youtube buy up a lot of inexpensive used locos and rolling stock. They buy the items that a lot of people would consider as junk, fix them up and get them running like new. In my opinion thats how young people get involved and will keep the hobby going.
I notice that some of the young model railroaders on youtube buy up a lot of inexpensive used locos and rolling stock. They buy the items that a lot of people would consider as junk, fix them up and get them running like new. In my opinion thats how young people get involved and will keep the hobby going.
I think you're referring to the "other" Harrison, in the "far north" of Quebec but not all that far from me.
https://www.youtube.com/c/SMTMainline/featured
Myself, on the other hand, prefer the fine models that longtime modelers do. However, I've yet to buy one new, or even for a retail price. The most I paid for a locomotive was a whopping 70 bucks (for a brand new Atlas D&H RS-11). Where I save money is self-decoder installs, buying used/waiting (and waiting and waiting) for the right model at the right price, and simply not feeling the need to "have it all" or have "one of everything". I have also been blessed with both modelers handing down track and scenery supplies, as well as a D&H man who gave a large amount of his collection to me while he was battling cancer.
Harrison
Homeschooler living In upstate NY a.k.a Northern NY.
Modeling the D&H in 1978.
Route of the famous "Montreal Limited"
My YouTube
Track fiddler Oh, I don't know. This thread has gotten to be almost like the land of do whatever you please and I kinda like it now. You know, all these years that I've gone to the fair periodically since I was a Kid, I don't ever remember seeing a model railroad display and makes me wonder why? It would be better than looking at a bunch of those shiny vegetables you know. P.S. The whole Forum has been freezing up on me every time I've been in here today, anyone else? TF
Oh, I don't know. This thread has gotten to be almost like the land of do whatever you please and I kinda like it now.
You know, all these years that I've gone to the fair periodically since I was a Kid, I don't ever remember seeing a model railroad display and makes me wonder why? It would be better than looking at a bunch of those shiny vegetables you know.
P.S. The whole Forum has been freezing up on me every time I've been in here today, anyone else?
I still have both arms and legs (there, on topic) and a first prize train display from my local Fair (there, on side topic).
I was a youngster then.