The current rather expensive parts of Model Railroading (rolling stock, locomotives, etc.) is a pretty big fraction of the entire hobby right now, but that's a temporary blip on the screen.
There will always be the expensive side, like there was in the 1960's and 70's with brass locomotives, while most of the rest was $30-60 Athearn, Rivarossi, and later Kato and Atlas locos. But the relatively large expensive side of the hobby won't last.
Here's why.
There are a lot of old far... uh, folks (like me) in the hobby right now. We're retired, and as a group we generally have decent retirement packages, meaning we have a fairly large amount of discretionary cash to spend on our hobby (at least, that's my impression), so we do. That means the market for rather expensive items is well supported.
As we start to croak, that market will begin to shrink. The more expensive side of the hobby will contract, and I think the hobby will go back to something like it was in the 1960's and 70's - some expensive items for those with significant resources, but the biggest market will be for the low-to-mid-priced equipment from companies like Bachmann, IHC, etc. I also think rolling stock kits will make a comeback. Accurail and other kit makers will find their market share growing, while the high priced RTR market will contract.
Or maybe I'm just full of crap.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
The only thing I'll ever not understand is sound in rolling stock. At least a locomotive has a few noisemakers in real life and they're under the control of a person in contexts that can be duplicated on a layout. Buying the ones rolling stock makes are all "natural." There's not really a way, without getting ridiculous, to be like "flange squeal here" and "slack run in."
I do not want to rain on the parade of some posters here.
Today I received a mail from a seller well know in the US for selling model trains; you can pre-order some passenger cars with sound and interor lights or with interor lights only.
sound and light: $169.99 iso $199.99
lights only : $127.49 iso $149.99
So the normal selling price will $199.99 and $149.99 but if I understand it those cars are now on sale in pre-order, before they are availible.
That you need some money for a hobby I can understand but this is more than crossing a line.
If you buy on flea markets, ebay and others, at model train show, etc... you can buy cheap trains but they are not selling new products at super bargain prices.
Who will buy this? I think that there are a lot of people who will buy this otherwise the manufacture will not invest in it to make those models.
Imagine if you have a layout with 3 or 4 trains running at the same time all with sound in locomotives and passenger cars, this is a complete cacophony.
In our club on the big club layout where it was possible to run with 10 to 15 trains at the same time we made a test years ago with 10 locomotives with sound and it was annoying all those sounds together of different locomotives.
The point is that if someone is interested in those cars he has no choice to buy those without the gimmicks, he is forced to buy with lights and sound or lights only an other option is not available.
The same with locomotives years ago it was possible to buy a dummy unit(A & B) now every unit is motorized.
Last question: can someone tell me how it is possible that a product that will be released in August 2022 now already is on sale.
Hello All,
Another big brass jackpot at the local antique mall
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Track fiddler Sweet! I like all the members listed and would have been in on that one John.
Sweet! I like all the members listed and would have been in on that one John.
I had seen both Johnny Cash and Willie Nelson perform individually at the state fair when it was still a free outdoor show. Johnny Cash played there in the late 1960s. I saw Willie Nelson some time in the 1990s. I also ran into Willie Nelson on a golf course. I had sprayed my shot over into his fairway as his group was coming the opposite direction. Fortunately I didn't come close to hitting anybody.
I know this is a forum that strictly enforces only subjects of model railroads and trains with exception of the Diner. I wonder if we'd get away with a thread for posting songs about trains as it might be kind of fun as there is a lot of them. This may be a little too upbeat for some here but holds some good memories of Good Times as other train songs do as well.
I know this is a forum that strictly enforces only subjects of model railroads and trains with exception of the Diner. I wonder if we'd get away with a thread for posting songs about trains as it might be kind of fun as there is a lot of them.
This may be a little too upbeat for some here but holds some good memories of Good Times as other train songs do as well.
Several years ago, maybe more than several, I started a thread about favorite train songs. As I recall it got a lot of responses. My all time favorite is City of New Orleans.
UPDATE: I came across these two videos. The first is The City of New Orleans being performed by the Highwaymen.
The Highwaymen - City of New Orleans (American Outlaws: Live at Nassau Coliseum, 1990) - YouTube
The second is Arlo Guthrie performing the song with video of what I am guessing is an Illinois Central excursion plus other vintage IC footage.
City of New Orleans, Arlo Guthrie - YouTube
Well, I was really talking about building the layout, not the fine tools needed to work on models. I built my layout with basically just a handsaw, electric drill, and big screwdriver. However, you now have to pay more than in the past to find straight 'stick' lumber, and plywood costs a lot more too (although most of my layout is built on 16" shelfs attached to hangers on the wall).
I started with a small section of the layout and operated it as a switching layout, then expanded over time. If I had tried to do it all at once, the cost would more than I could afford. But doing some now and some later worked fine. It's easy to try to do too much right at the start.
selector wjstix First re prices, it's true the "up front" costs can be high. Building materials for benchwork, DCC systems, etc. can be costly... I can't honestly recall, it has been 16 years, but I must have spent $500+ just on tools before I began construction on my first layout. I left the military with just a small knapsack with some drivers and wrenches, maybe a locking plier. I had to get an orbital sander, files, needlenosed pliers, circular saw,... When I built the second layout, about 16 months later (basement was finished per SWMBO's 'request'), I decided on splined roadbed and frame construction. I needed power drivers/drill, table saw, etc. It all adds up!
wjstix First re prices, it's true the "up front" costs can be high. Building materials for benchwork, DCC systems, etc. can be costly...
First re prices, it's true the "up front" costs can be high. Building materials for benchwork, DCC systems, etc. can be costly...
I can't honestly recall, it has been 16 years, but I must have spent $500+ just on tools before I began construction on my first layout. I left the military with just a small knapsack with some drivers and wrenches, maybe a locking plier. I had to get an orbital sander, files, needlenosed pliers, circular saw,... When I built the second layout, about 16 months later (basement was finished per SWMBO's 'request'), I decided on splined roadbed and frame construction. I needed power drivers/drill, table saw, etc.
It all adds up!
My tools used for this hobby over the past 25 years have been:
Jig saw
Chop saw
Cordless drill. An unneeded luxury compared to a corded drill since building a layout is not a mobile effort. Extension cords cost about $8.
Drill screw driver bits.
For the trains:
One small pliers that I used for just about everything model maintenance wise, curved at the tip that cost about $5.00 20 years ago.
Two other small pliers.
Two small household "jewelers" screw driver sets...one phillips head and one slotted head.
A hobby knife, with a regular blade, chisel blade, and curved blade.
A few small drill bits....number 78 and 65 come to mind.
A pin vise, when needed.
A small paint brush set. Not el cheapo kind but not world class artist quality either.
91% alcohol and qtips.
- Douglas
An expensive way to approach the hobby is to lock yourself into modeling a specific railroad, in a specific location, at a specific time point. An exact replica of something that happened.
You'll spend your time searching for the correct components, and paying for those exact components once you find them...often times paying a premium for the only model available.
If you freelance, or make up your own railroad, you have a broader universe of models with which to find good deals.
If I was starting out and on a budget, I would model a small to medium sized railroad and buy a couple of Walthers Mainline NW2s or SW7s. Nice little runners with ESU sound for about $150 each.
You can scrounge around for deals on rolling stock.
Ebay often has used track...check the condition....sometimes about 1/3 to 1/4 the price you'd buy new.
I was at a train show a couple years ago and I found a set of Rivarossi B&O heavyweights with interiors for $10 apiece. I don't even model the B&O but at that price I couldn't resist. I bought all five and now have the basis of a nice train. They need some upgrades like body mounted KDs and metal wheels but even then I'll have less than $20 per car. I'm sure I could come up with some excuse to run them on my layout.
First re prices, it's true the "up front" costs can be high. Building materials for benchwork, DCC systems, etc. can be costly. However, you don't have to start with the most expensive items. It's kinda like saying I can't afford an automobile because I can't afford a new Cadillac or Mercedes. There are alternatives.
BroadwayLionI remember buying new AHM pax cars at $4.00 each...
You can still get AHM / Rivarossi cars - sometimes with interiors - for $10-$20 if you shop around railroad flea markets or online. Yes you can buy state-of-the-art passenger cars for $80, but you don't have to. Just for fun, I created a 7-car heavyweight GN Empire Builder, see how little money I could spend. Most of the cars are AHM/Rivarossi cars (fortunately their Baggage car is pretty close to the GN ones) which I bought for an average of about $10 each. I bought two Walthers car - a sleeper and the solarium observation - for about $30 each, since there weren't other / cheaper versions of those cars.
My brother used to work for a professional photography company and got assigned on some shoots for some big has been bands that performed around here.
His assistant got transfered and I went to sub for him on a few shoots. I didn't care if they were has beens since I got to meet Willie Nelson, The Oak Ridge Boys, and Alabama.
https://youtu.be/IPjVThtwWqo
TF
Track fiddler I wonder if I can get it locked and put all the complaining away. If something's too expensive for you, here's a song that explains how to fix that. Years in a court battle they spent millions without batting an eye to win the rights to keep their name and continue what they love to do. Nobody ever thought the two main members (in dispute as one of them wanted to make the music too negative) would ever come together for just one more. The indoor stadiums that are huge we're not large enough capacity to accommodate how many people wanted to go watch four old men play and have fun. So here's four old guys doing what they love, never complaining about a thing. https://youtu.be/Kjgwjh4H7wg If you like trains, never complain while paying the piper and continue doing what you love to do PF not TF
I wonder if I can get it locked and put all the complaining away.
If something's too expensive for you, here's a song that explains how to fix that.
Years in a court battle they spent millions without batting an eye to win the rights to keep their name and continue what they love to do.
Nobody ever thought the two main members (in dispute as one of them wanted to make the music too negative) would ever come together for just one more.
The indoor stadiums that are huge we're not large enough capacity to accommodate how many people wanted to go watch four old men play and have fun.
So here's four old guys doing what they love, never complaining about a thing.
https://youtu.be/Kjgwjh4H7wg
If you like trains, never complain while paying the piper and continue doing what you love to do
PF not TF
The Ohio State Fair has long put on grandstand shows featuring A-list stars. They used to be held at an outdoor grandstand free of charge to fairgoers. When they tore that down and replaced it with an indoor venue, seating was more limited and they started charging $10 a person. One of the acts they booked was the Highwaymen, a group composed of Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, Kris Kristofferson, and Waylon Jennings. It sold out almost immediately. I went there anyway, hoping I could get a ticket from a scalper at a reasonable cost. I ended up running into a guy who had just had a fight with his girlfriend and she left him. He was selling her ticket at face value. It gets better. The ticket was in the second row, right in front of the stage. I wasn't 20 feet from the performers the whole show and what a great show it was. Sometimes you just have to be in the right place at the right time.
I wonder if I can get it locked to put the complaining away.
If something's too expensive, here's a song that explains how to fix that.
Years in a court battle they spent millions without batting an eye to win the rights to keep their name alive to continue what they love to do.
Nobody ever thought the two main members (in dispute as one of them wanted to make the music too negative) would ever come together again for just one more.
So here's four old guys having fun doing what they love, never complaining about a thing.
If you like trains, never complain while paying the piper. Just continue to have fun doing what you love to do
gmpullman Steven Otte No matter how many threads there already are on the topic of how expensive the hobby is, people always want to start a new one, so here's what we're going to do. https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/245773.aspx Cheers, Ed
Steven Otte No matter how many threads there already are on the topic of how expensive the hobby is, people always want to start a new one, so here's what we're going to do.
https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/245773.aspx
Cheers, Ed
Stupid broken Forum software won't let me merge threads any more...
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
ATLANTIC CENTRAL OK, the grass is cut and some more of the layout room ceiling is up. I tracked my spending off and on over the years and came up with a yearly average of about $3000. Even when I was young, I was gradually gathering and b Years of light spending easily made up by years of intense spending - you do the math. The wife and I decided long ago, the will is going to say "being of sound mind and body we spent it all", not even close yet. Sheldon
OK, the grass is cut and some more of the layout room ceiling is up.
I tracked my spending off and on over the years and came up with a yearly average of about $3000.
Even when I was young, I was gradually gathering and b
Years of light spending easily made up by years of intense spending - you do the math.
The wife and I decided long ago, the will is going to say "being of sound mind and body we spent it all", not even close yet.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALI tracked my spending off and on over the years and came up with a yearly average of about $3000.
I have been at an average of around $1,000.00 per year with four exceptions.
1989, 2019, 2020, and 2021. Those years I was buying massive amount to populate a large layout project. I have spent over $20,000.00 on trains in the past three years.
That being said... my spending has actually plummeted to near-zero. I had a plan for what I needed to buy for the new layout, and I finally have everything as planned. Now all I need to do is put it all together.
Only Hurricanes can stop me now.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
NorthBritThat is one reason why I have always encouraged my grandchildren since they were three years of age. They all know how to work the controls and they run whatever they like. Therefore they always ask to be in the train room.
I model the Transition Era, 4-axle diesels and typically 40 foot boxcars. As so much model railroad equipment was built for this Era, there's still a lot around, and it doesn't command premium prices.
The modern era seems to demand every shiny detail we see at the Amtrak station. I'm happy with a sturdy old locomotive, a string of rust-colored and weathered boxcars and a caboose.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Train prices today can be crazy. To get something with moderate detail can be easily over $200. Most trains with DCC and sound are well over $200, sometimes getting to $300 or higher. There is a model train I want, it is an Athearn Genesis EMD SD75M PRLX primed for grime w/ dcc and sound which I found for $256. I guess for being top of the line its not that bad but i mean, how much does it cost to make these small trains$
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=monty+python+defeats+black+knight&docid=608009327524994662&mid=6C73B60CC4DD7485CBA36C73B60CC4DD7485CBA3&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
(black knight complains about train prices...loses arms and legs)
Some of these high prices are self inflected by us modelers. We have demanded brass level detailing on these new plastic models. Even with high numbers in a run of models, this still leads to much higher expense for the tooling and time it takes to assemble those models. When you look at the old Athearn Blue box era F7, it was very basic with the only details being a pair of horns and pair of headlight lenses, the bulb was in the cab and didnt really light up the headlights that well, and if you wanted more detailing, window glass ect, you were on your own to buy the parts and install them. They also growled to varrying levels and it was pot luck if you got one that was fairly quiet right out of the box. But with them being mass produced, you could get them cheaply at one time. But even those kids of today, want that brass level detailing and that means expensive models. The modeling world has changed, both for the better and the worse. Much of the "modeling" of the past, building kits and detailing your engine as gone to RTR superdetailed right out of the box with the price to boot. Its up to us modelers with experience to help these kids get started, point them toward less expensive but good running models to get started with. Sell or give them our older models that we nolonger run as we have moved up the chain into the newest and greatest models that we as adults can afford most of the time. Back when Lionel was the big name for young boys to desire in trains, most of those were way past what they could afford, sometimes even their fathers had trouble affording them. But they did and those boys got sets or add ons at Christmas and birthdays. Many as they got older mowed grass, delivered papers and saved their allowances to add small things to their train layouts. Its never been a cheap hobby for kids. Even those $10 Athearn F7s were alot of money when I was a kid in the late 1970s and early 80's. We counted on holiday gifts and "Santa" to grow our hobby as children. So this directly relates back to the adults who play this role in a childs life. We can complain all day about high prices, just the way it is and either you accept that and enjoy the hobby as best you can, or walk away. Thats the hard truth to it. Just like any other hobby you can name. So lets make the best of it, help out the less fortunate modelers of any age get started, and keep going. Be less negative and instead focus on the good in the hobby, promote the hobby shops that stock lots of second hand models that will be less expensive for the new comer on a tight budget. Help guide these newbies so they dont by an overpriced Tyco or other low end/poor running engine or crappy throttle. I do this every chance I can get. I have no problem walking around the show with a newbie, asking them questions about what they like, their budget and then helping them find good stuff to get started.
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
MJ4562 Reminds me that a common theme in layout interviews is they almost always interview a middle-aged person that recalls getting into the hobby by playing with their dad's model railroad and how he wouldn't let them do what they wanted.
Reminds me that a common theme in layout interviews is they almost always interview a middle-aged person that recalls getting into the hobby by playing with their dad's model railroad and how he wouldn't let them do what they wanted.
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
Reminds me that a common theme in layout interviews is they almost always interview a middle-aged person that recalls getting into the hobby by playing with their dad's model railroad and how he wouldn't let them do what they wanted. So they grew up and after becoming established in life, built their own layout so they could do as they pleased. I see the gateway for newcomers is still the same as its always been: museum and club layout demos and parents teaching their children. I really don't see how a newcomer could get started or even become interested without a mentor or someone to show off their work to them.
John-NYBW ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain There seems to be a lot of focus in this thread on inflation and its effect on rising prices. But, inflation has always been a factor. Something purchased today costs more than it did a year ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, 30 years ago. That is as true for model railroading as it is for everything else. Taking an item and making the cost inflation-adjusted, chances are it costs no more today than it did one, five, ten, thirty years ago. So, it was expensive even 'back in the day' to get involved in model railroading. I keep going back to the OP's original point. It is expensive to build a passenger train. It is expensive to build a layout. Too bad that the OP has not returned to defend his original point. Rich EXACTLY, it has NEVER been a hobby for those with limited means, at least not any more advanced version of the hobby. And, as noted, in some ways it is considerably less expensive, and easier, to do on a large scale than it ever has been. If the hobby was still as it was in 1968, I don't think I would be building a basement filling 1500 sq ft layout with 1200' of track and 130 turnouts, requiring 140 locomotives and 1400 pieces of rolling stock. Simply based on cost and assembly time requirements. And I am a really good shopper, who has been building the required fleet for many decades, and who does not need the latest and greatest of EVERYTHING - and it is still an expensive hobby. Putting up more lights and ceiling today - pictures soon - benchwork hopefully in a few weeks. Sheldon My first job was at a McDonald's in 1968 and I tend to measure inflation against the price of items back then. A hamburger was 20 cents. A cheeseburger 25 cents. A Big Mac was 49 cents. A filet-o-fish was 30 cents. French fries were 18 cents. A small Coke (12 oz) was 10 cents and a large (16 oz) was 15 cents. A shake was 25 cents. Some items have gone up more than the cost of living. During Lent, you could get 2 filet-o-fish for $6 which is ten times what it cost in 1968 and that is the special price. The regular price is considerably more. Inflation is a measure of the value of the dollar. Supply, demand, and production costs also figure into the price of things which is why some items go up faster than the rate of inflation and some items go up less. Getting back to the OP, the cost of a top of the line passenger car is about $90. When I built most of my passenger car fleet during 2000-2010, the price was in the low $60. I don't mind paying top dollar if I get quality for my money. It infuriates me to pay top dollar and get poor quality which I find is the case with one particular brand. Needless to say I'm through buying their passenger cars.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain There seems to be a lot of focus in this thread on inflation and its effect on rising prices. But, inflation has always been a factor. Something purchased today costs more than it did a year ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, 30 years ago. That is as true for model railroading as it is for everything else. Taking an item and making the cost inflation-adjusted, chances are it costs no more today than it did one, five, ten, thirty years ago. So, it was expensive even 'back in the day' to get involved in model railroading. I keep going back to the OP's original point. It is expensive to build a passenger train. It is expensive to build a layout. Too bad that the OP has not returned to defend his original point. Rich EXACTLY, it has NEVER been a hobby for those with limited means, at least not any more advanced version of the hobby. And, as noted, in some ways it is considerably less expensive, and easier, to do on a large scale than it ever has been. If the hobby was still as it was in 1968, I don't think I would be building a basement filling 1500 sq ft layout with 1200' of track and 130 turnouts, requiring 140 locomotives and 1400 pieces of rolling stock. Simply based on cost and assembly time requirements. And I am a really good shopper, who has been building the required fleet for many decades, and who does not need the latest and greatest of EVERYTHING - and it is still an expensive hobby. Putting up more lights and ceiling today - pictures soon - benchwork hopefully in a few weeks. Sheldon
richhotrain There seems to be a lot of focus in this thread on inflation and its effect on rising prices. But, inflation has always been a factor. Something purchased today costs more than it did a year ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, 30 years ago. That is as true for model railroading as it is for everything else. Taking an item and making the cost inflation-adjusted, chances are it costs no more today than it did one, five, ten, thirty years ago. So, it was expensive even 'back in the day' to get involved in model railroading. I keep going back to the OP's original point. It is expensive to build a passenger train. It is expensive to build a layout. Too bad that the OP has not returned to defend his original point. Rich
There seems to be a lot of focus in this thread on inflation and its effect on rising prices. But, inflation has always been a factor. Something purchased today costs more than it did a year ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, 30 years ago. That is as true for model railroading as it is for everything else. Taking an item and making the cost inflation-adjusted, chances are it costs no more today than it did one, five, ten, thirty years ago.
So, it was expensive even 'back in the day' to get involved in model railroading. I keep going back to the OP's original point. It is expensive to build a passenger train. It is expensive to build a layout. Too bad that the OP has not returned to defend his original point.
Rich
EXACTLY, it has NEVER been a hobby for those with limited means, at least not any more advanced version of the hobby. And, as noted, in some ways it is considerably less expensive, and easier, to do on a large scale than it ever has been.
If the hobby was still as it was in 1968, I don't think I would be building a basement filling 1500 sq ft layout with 1200' of track and 130 turnouts, requiring 140 locomotives and 1400 pieces of rolling stock. Simply based on cost and assembly time requirements.
And I am a really good shopper, who has been building the required fleet for many decades, and who does not need the latest and greatest of EVERYTHING - and it is still an expensive hobby.
Putting up more lights and ceiling today - pictures soon - benchwork hopefully in a few weeks.
My first job was at a McDonald's in 1968 and I tend to measure inflation against the price of items back then. A hamburger was 20 cents. A cheeseburger 25 cents. A Big Mac was 49 cents. A filet-o-fish was 30 cents. French fries were 18 cents. A small Coke (12 oz) was 10 cents and a large (16 oz) was 15 cents. A shake was 25 cents. Some items have gone up more than the cost of living. During Lent, you could get 2 filet-o-fish for $6 which is ten times what it cost in 1968 and that is the special price. The regular price is considerably more.
Inflation is a measure of the value of the dollar. Supply, demand, and production costs also figure into the price of things which is why some items go up faster than the rate of inflation and some items go up less. Getting back to the OP, the cost of a top of the line passenger car is about $90. When I built most of my passenger car fleet during 2000-2010, the price was in the low $60. I don't mind paying top dollar if I get quality for my money. It infuriates me to pay top dollar and get poor quality which I find is the case with one particular brand. Needless to say I'm through buying their passenger cars.
And I am basically disapointed in all the high end passenger cars, $60 or $90, they almost all fail one basic test for me.
A working, touching, reliable system of diaphragms and coupler spacing.
So early on in the advancement of present day high end RTR passenger cars I decided to pretty much stay with inexpensive, generic, often selectively compressed passenger cars that I could build to my own detail and operational standards.
Close coupled, working diaphragms, adequate detail - $30 to $50 per car with all the detail parts, replacement trucks, etc.
Here are two different brands, different length cars, coupled and on a curve.
So, the whole cost of passenger cars thing is not a thing for me. I have an inventory of Athearn passenger cars mostly bought for $5 apiece - I can spend some time and money making them suit my needs. As well as ConCor, Bachmann and some branchline kits, all bought at bargain prices.
John-NYBW You have to go back to 1958 to find when the dollar was worth ten times more than what it is now.
LION goes back to 1948.
Subway fare was 15c... Then (eventually) it went up to $1.50, and now it is $3.00 (sort of).
LION will giff ewe numbers, and ew can plug them into any year where they fit.
But ewe will knead more of them as the ears go bye.
I remember buying new AHM pax cars at $4.00 each... Looks like they want $80.00 for them now (ten and double)
Well I never did earn that much money... I dropped out of the wrok farce in 1983 when I was earning $200/wk. Now most skilled wrokers get $200/day. Oh whale, at least I pay not the taxes.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Putting up more lights and ceiling today - pictures soon - benchwork hopefully in a few weeks. Sheldon
Alton Junction