ATLANTIC CENTRAL So, if you really want proto correct details, build a layout with 48" curves, replace the factory diaphragms with American Limited diaphragms which actually work, rework the couplers on those Walthers cars so the diaphragms touch and the cars are not 10 feet apart, and then you really have correct models.
So, if you really want proto correct details, build a layout with 48" curves, replace the factory diaphragms with American Limited diaphragms which actually work, rework the couplers on those Walthers cars so the diaphragms touch and the cars are not 10 feet apart, and then you really have correct models.
Alton Junction
JPD Today’s Lesson The end truck on the observation car keeps shorting at a frog after coming out of a curve. I can see exactly what is happening, but no adjusting of the tracks seems to help. All the other nine heavyweight cars with six-wheel trucks pass this area just fine. I checked the wheels again on the observation car with the NMRA standards gauge and it is compliant. I cannot flip the observation car around because it is an end car. So, I exchanged the end truck off of a coach and placed it on the observation car. Now the observation car works fine and oddly enough so does the coach! Because I am a glutton for punishment, today I decided to run the train clockwise, and lo and behold, it now is derailing and causing short in different spots from when it is running counter-clockwise. I swear two days ago it had no problem in this direction. I am not going to give up, but in the meanwhile, when my grandchildren come over and want to run a passenger train, I think I will let them run the Con-Cor non-prototypical four-wheel shorter passenger cars. They are bullet proof on my layout. I hope you folks do not mind my recording my observations here, but it is a way for me to document my progress and hopefully some will find this struggle of value. At least I am learning. I have to add I picked up model railroad again, a hobby of my youth, when I retired because I thought it would be fun and relaxing. Not so much fun this week, not so relaxing. My other hobby, genealogy, was never this frustrating.
JPD, I understand. I have been at this hobby for 50 plus years, and had the opportunity to learn from some great modelers.
I'm getting ready to start building a new layout. It will have 36" radius minimum curves.
And guess what? I still choose to run mostly 72' passnger cars like ConCor and Athearn. Why you ask?
Because this detail, working touching diaphrgams, is more important to me than the individual cars being perfect scale models. None of my little HO passengers have to jump from car to car.
OR
Decide which compromises you are willing to live with.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL SeeYou190 Why why why does Kadee not make HO scale passenger car trucks? In N scale, Microtrains passenger car trucks solved all the problems with all makes of N scale passenger cars in the 1980s and 1990s. -Kevin To make them equalized, it is complex, expensive, there are lots of styles, less standardized mouting on models, all making it does the best product market for them. While not equalized, Walthers is already selling their trucks separately, as are others. Look at the discussions on this forum where you and I, and a few others explain the value of equalized trucks that largely falls on deaf ears. As much ascI would like nice free rolling equalized passenger trucks, I'm not holding my breath. I still have a few Central Valley passenger trucks on a few pieces of equipment, but while sprung and equalized, they could be more free rolling. Sheldon
SeeYou190 Why why why does Kadee not make HO scale passenger car trucks? In N scale, Microtrains passenger car trucks solved all the problems with all makes of N scale passenger cars in the 1980s and 1990s. -Kevin
Why why why does Kadee not make HO scale passenger car trucks?
In N scale, Microtrains passenger car trucks solved all the problems with all makes of N scale passenger cars in the 1980s and 1990s.
-Kevin
To make them equalized, it is complex, expensive, there are lots of styles, less standardized mouting on models, all making it does the best product market for them.
While not equalized, Walthers is already selling their trucks separately, as are others.
Look at the discussions on this forum where you and I, and a few others explain the value of equalized trucks that largely falls on deaf ears.
As much ascI would like nice free rolling equalized passenger trucks, I'm not holding my breath.
I still have a few Central Valley passenger trucks on a few pieces of equipment, but while sprung and equalized, they could be more free rolling.
I never knew that I had any rolling stock with sprung trucks until today when a Kadee covered hopper started derailing on a turnout while backing up. I removed the car from the layout and inspected it on the workbench.
Turned out, the wheels were coated with crud. While cleaning the wheels, the truck basically exploded in my hands. Who knew? It was a metal sprung truck. I had to order a new one from Kadee.
Rich
JPD Today’s Lesson The end truck on the observation car keeps shorting at a frog after coming out of a curve. I can see exactly what is happening, but no adjusting of the tracks seems to help. All the other nine heavyweight cars with six-wheel trucks pass this area just fine. I checked the wheels again on the observation car with the NMRA standards gauge and it is compliant. I cannot flip the observation car around because it is an end car. So, I exchanged the end truck off of a coach and placed it on the observation car. Now the observation car works fine and oddly enough so does the coach! Because I am a glutton for punishment, today I decided to run the train clockwise, and lo and behold, it now is derailing and causing short in different spots from when it is running counter-clockwise. I swear two days ago it had no problem in this direction.
Is the observation car only shorting on one turnout? What brand of turnout is it?
You say that you can see exactly what is happening. What exactly is happening?
When you turned the train around and ran it clockwise, where is it derailing? On a turnout? Same turnout as before? More that one turnout?
You say that it is derailing and causing a short. That is not uncommon to short the mainline after a derailment. So, I assume that the derailment is the problem, not the resulting short. In other words, had the car not derailed, no short would have occurred.
Is the car derailing after coming out of a curve? Or is the derailment at a turnout following a stretch of straight track?
Tell us more.
JPD I have to add I picked up model railroad again, a hobby of my youth, when I retired because I thought it would be fun and relaxing. Not so much fun this week, not so relaxing. My other hobby, genealogy, was never this frustrating.
Your struggle is familiar to me because I have experienced many of the same problems that you are working your way through. Model railroading can be fun when things go well, but not so much fun when the frustrations kick in.
Just today, I cleared my freight yard to get a better reach into my coach yard on the other side of my double mainline to solder some rail joiners on the coach yard ladder. Loose rail joiners were failing to power the ladder, although the yard tracks were all receiving power from feeders placed throughout the yard.
When I was done soldering, I began to back up all of the freight cars into the freight yard off of the mainline. A Kadee covered hopper was giving me fits with derailments, so I pulled it off the layout and inspected it on the work bench. Turned out, a few wheels were coated in crud, and I mean coated. While cleaning the dirty wheels, the truck basically disintegrated in my hands. Had to call Sam The Answer Man at Kadee to figure out which truck to order as a replacement.
Not a fun morning.
JPD I hope you folks do not mind my recording my observations here, but it is a way for me to document my progress and hopefully some will find this struggle of value. At least I am learning.
Lastspikemike snjroy Since this thread has nothing to do with the prototype, debates on model vs prototype about trackwork seems a bit out of place... On the other hand, I learned a whole lot about passenger car trucks and potential problems about them. I guess I've been lucky with mine so far, but I will keep the info handy for the future. Thanks. Simon My point was even ordinarily well laid track is going to be bumpy relatively speaking. We strive for good trackwork but scale effects do matter and they do restrict what is achievable. Our models are already made to work within limitations of HO scale track but improvements can be made there. Case in point: I'm rehabbing a CAD $3.00 Bachmann stock car. Kadee couplers mounted on the body (that's CAD $4.00 approx ) and CAD$3.00 Walther's sprung trucks from wherever and whenever upgraded with (probably) Rapido 33" wheel sets (what's that about another CAD$6.00?). A new comparable RTR from Athearn costs what about CAD$30.00 and still needs new couplers. Pushed on my not affixed rough layout track by my handy dandy always available 0-5-0 and the performance is nothing short of amazing compared to the original with its plastic trucks (complete with truck mounted horn and hook couplers). Real railroads experience derailments because of truck problems. So do we. It's worth bird dogging the trucks and couplers for just about any rolling stock worth running. For example, this era of Bachmann shells really aren't that bad but the running gear is awful. The Walthers heavyweights are pretty nice but really don't track well. It's worth looking into and fixing if it can be fixed.
snjroy Since this thread has nothing to do with the prototype, debates on model vs prototype about trackwork seems a bit out of place... On the other hand, I learned a whole lot about passenger car trucks and potential problems about them. I guess I've been lucky with mine so far, but I will keep the info handy for the future. Thanks. Simon
Since this thread has nothing to do with the prototype, debates on model vs prototype about trackwork seems a bit out of place...
On the other hand, I learned a whole lot about passenger car trucks and potential problems about them. I guess I've been lucky with mine so far, but I will keep the info handy for the future. Thanks.
Simon
My point was even ordinarily well laid track is going to be bumpy relatively speaking. We strive for good trackwork but scale effects do matter and they do restrict what is achievable.
Our models are already made to work within limitations of HO scale track but improvements can be made there.
Case in point: I'm rehabbing a CAD $3.00 Bachmann stock car. Kadee couplers mounted on the body (that's CAD $4.00 approx ) and CAD$3.00 Walther's sprung trucks from wherever and whenever upgraded with (probably) Rapido 33" wheel sets (what's that about another CAD$6.00?). A new comparable RTR from Athearn costs what about CAD$30.00 and still needs new couplers.
Pushed on my not affixed rough layout track by my handy dandy always available 0-5-0 and the performance is nothing short of amazing compared to the original with its plastic trucks (complete with truck mounted horn and hook couplers).
Real railroads experience derailments because of truck problems. So do we. It's worth bird dogging the trucks and couplers for just about any rolling stock worth running. For example, this era of Bachmann shells really aren't that bad but the running gear is awful.
The Walthers heavyweights are pretty nice but really don't track well. It's worth looking into and fixing if it can be fixed.
This track was as flat as the lazer shows it being straight.
Of course is was not layed on foam, or cork or other "soft" materials........
Lazers, levels and straight edges were used to "engineer" the roadbed before the track was installed.......
And I still run equalized trucks on most of my freight cars......
But what do I know? I've been told I'm doing this all wrong because I don't use foam......
To make them equalized, it is complex, expensive, there are lots of styles, less standardized mouting on models, all making it not the best product market for them.
As much as I would like nice free rolling equalized passenger trucks, I'm not holding my breath.
Living the dream.
To return to the original topic, when you troubleshoot problems like this it is odd and fascinating what effect seemingly tiny variances have on trackability of our models. When I had finished a project of a long string of 50' boxcars equipped with cushion underframes (on the prototypes) and thus I installed Walthers and another make of extended coupler pockets on them, I tried them out on some challenging (and admittedly, perhaps not ideally laid) track. Cars that would sail through a couple of crossovers at fairly high speed (shoved by my "0-5-0") could not always do so if coupled to another car. Yet something like swapping out the wheelsets could make a different. Or turning a car around, or swapping the trucks from one end to the other. Or reversing the order in which they were coupled. Or just waiting a while and trying again.
One comment about passenger cars. I have several from one of Walthers's early runs of the smooth side Pullman Standard double deck commuter cars (C&NW, and four wheel trucks by the way). They gave me no end of trouble but someone on this Forum commented that on the bolster Walthers used a metal foil presumably to conduct electricity for interior lighting. That foil was bunched up and when smoothed out, most of the problems seemed to be addressed. I do not know if Walthers routinely uses foil in that way but it is worth checking out.
Dave Nelson
gmpullmanNot to mention that in HO a real flange would scale to 0.0115".
This did not sound right, so I looked it up and did the math.
It is right.
That is about 3 human hairs! I knew our flanges were oversized, but a scale flange would be nearly invisible!
Heartland Division CB&QAnother cause of derailments with model passenger trains is diaphragms rubbing together on curves. For model trains , it is best to have enough coupling distance to prevent that from happening even though the real trains had diaphragms tightly together.
True. I tried lots of experiments to get touching diaphrams on passenger car and still have them run on a 24 inch curve. Old MHP brand Neoprene diaphrams were close to successful, but still not workable.
Another cause of derailments with model passenger trains is diaphragms rubbing together on curves. For model trains , it is best to have enough coupling distance to prevent that from happening even though the real trains had diaphragms tightly together.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
Lastspikemike They're not contradictory.
They're not contradictory.
Lastspikemike Even flat looking HO track is very bumpy but our models ride over bumps that railway engineers would regard as requiring repair. Those bumps don't look that bad because at 1/87 they are tiny. If HO scale track actually looks bumpy then in real life it would be impassable. On my as yet not glued down track trains don't derail when the unsupported bits of track move several mm vertically. That's inches of unsupported vertical movement of rails in real life. 87 mm is more than 3". That's only 1mm in HO scale, impossible to see.
Even flat looking HO track is very bumpy but our models ride over bumps that railway engineers would regard as requiring repair. Those bumps don't look that bad because at 1/87 they are tiny.
If HO scale track actually looks bumpy then in real life it would be impassable.
On my as yet not glued down track trains don't derail when the unsupported bits of track move several mm vertically. That's inches of unsupported vertical movement of rails in real life. 87 mm is more than 3". That's only 1mm in HO scale, impossible to see.
First of all, flat looking HO scale track is not very bumpy, not even bumpy at all. The way that HO scale track is designed, the rails are supported by a web of plastic ties aided by plastic spikes all along both sides of each rail. When I put a 4' level on top of the rails on a straight run of flex track, there are no bumps. If the track section is intact, it is virtually impossible to make it bumpy.
Second of all, when you say that your unsecured track moves several millimeters vertically, quantify "several". There are 25.4 mm in an inch, so 5 mm is just over 3/16". If a piece of rolling stock moves several millimeters vertically, repeatedly, over "bumpy" track, that piece of rolling stock is going to derail.
Third of all, you mention "several mm", then reference 87mm, and finally conclude that you are only talking about 1mm. Which is it?
The real issue with derailments on poor track work is what I call "humps" and "valleys", often caused by faulty roadbed or subroadbed, unsecured sections of track like your vertical movements, unsecured sections of rail often caused by missing spikes (particularly on curves where ties are removed to accommodate soldered rail joiners) and opposing rails at different heights. Once a wheel lifts off the rail, if it fails to reseat itself before it reaches a curve, or before it exits a curve, or before it reaches a turnout, the truck will derail.
SeeYou190They have real weight, fully equalized trucks with partial spring compression, and all the physics is in their favor.
Not to mention that in HO a real flange would scale to 0.0115".
Good Luck, Ed
LastspikemikeThey're not contradictory. Even flat looking HO track is very bumpy but our models ride over bumps that railway engineers would regard as requiring repair.
Prototype trains do handle poor trackwork better than models.
They have real weight, fully equalized trucks with partial spring compression, and all the physics is in their favor.
JPD, glad you are getting it figured out.
But this all speaks to the fact that with all this scale detail, 32" radius is really tight for 80' long cars.
Space is a consideration for all of us, but bigger is always better when it comes to curves, just ask the full size railroaders.
Another quick update.
I now know part of the clockwise / counter-clockwise derailments problem. The diner car has an extra set of steps on a door just over the truck. It is only on oneside. The truck hits the steps and cannot swing far enough. If I physically pick up the car, turn it around, and go over the same curve, then it works fine because the truck no longer hits the steps.
Two cars that kept derailing I checked again and noticed that the wheels on the trucks did not spin well. I used the Micro-Mark Truck Turner to fix these wheels.When I built my layout I kept it to two feet wide with one exception. The area where I will be placing the turntable and roundhouse is three feet. I feared that if derailments were going to happen they would happen here. And of course this has become one of the trouble spots. I can fix this, but it is going to be a challenge. Glad I do not have any tunnels because deraiments would also have to happen there per Murphy's Law.
I am down to two problem track areas. Hopefully, I will nail them tomorrow.
Lastspikemike At 1/87 any variations in flatness are going to be huge compared to prototype even though they don't look it. Model trains handle poor track much better than any prototype could.
At 1/87 any variations in flatness are going to be huge compared to prototype even though they don't look it. Model trains handle poor track much better than any prototype could.
That has to be the biggest frustration for anyone new entering the world of scale model railroading, poor track work leading to derailments and unintended uncouplings.
JPDI want to thank all of you for your advice. This is clearly going to take me some time to fix. Apparently, my track laying is not perfect. I plan on testing, testing, testing until all my passenger trains run smoothly, in both directions, on the mainline, the sidings, the yard, and on the wye. I will then test my freight trains again to verify they still run smoothing, especially in the sidings and yard. I will not be doing any ballasting until the passenger and freight trains run smoothing 99 percent of the time.
Kudos to you for looking into the situation and finding the problem.
I want to thank all of you for your advice. This is clearly going to take me some time to fix. Apparently, my track laying is not perfect. I plan on testing, testing, testing until all my passenger trains run smoothly, in both directions, on the mainline, the sidings, the yard, and on the wye. I will then test my freight trains again to verify they still run smoothing, especially in the sidings and yard. I will not be doing any ballasting until the passenger and freight trains run smoothing 99 percent of the time.
OvermodMy understanding of stable running was that one end of the car be set to smooth pivoting only, and the other one allowed a little 'twist'.
This only worked well on shorter freight cars, and it never worked as well as a pair of equalized trucks that pivoted only.
On longer passenger cars both trucks should be set with just a little twist. I think this might be why most passenger car trucks have such a larger contact area where they meet the bolster.
In three dimensional terms, all trucks need to yaw. When you set a truck loose you desire pitch to help the car maintain more wheel contact, unfortunately loosening the screw also allows roll, which is less desirable.
I notice that 'truck tuning' isn't on the list of improvements tried. I recommend that it should be...
My understanding of stable running was that one end of the car be set to smooth pivoting only, and the other one allowed a little 'twist'. If that is not done, then some form of constant-contact side bearing would be needed on at least one truck, and that contact area would be something that might preferentially hang up in one direction as noted.
Just for grins, take the center axles completely out (thereby simulating long-wheelbase 4-wheel trucks) and see if the issues persist.
As gmpullman said, the usual culprit on Walthers passenger car derailments is due to the screwheads having burrs on top of them. When they assemble these trucks in China, they use powered screwdrivers. If the clutch isn't set right, the screwdriver can "cam out" and lift a little bur out of the Phillips screw top.
Whenever I have a derailing Walthers passenger car, the first thing I do is file the heads of the screws on the trucks. Not a lot, but just enough to smooth it all out so it slides real easy on the contact pad.
dstarr As to the derails only in one direction, all the trailing point turnouts become facing point turnouts when going the other way. Facing point turnouts are more derailment prone if anything is even slightly wrong. Trailing point turnouts allow the wheels to push them up against the stock rails.
As to the derails only in one direction, all the trailing point turnouts become facing point turnouts when going the other way. Facing point turnouts are more derailment prone if anything is even slightly wrong. Trailing point turnouts allow the wheels to push them up against the stock rails.
As to the derails only in one direction, all the trailing point turnouts become facing point turnouts when going the other way. Facing point turnouts are more derailment prone if anything is even slightly wrong. Trailing point turnouts allow the wheels to push them up against the stock rails. The one thing you did not mention checking on the rolling stock is truck free swing. Be sure that the trucks swing freely in both directions and don't get hung up on coupler boxes, centerbeams or underbody details. Do all your Kadee gladhands clear all the turnouts and crossovers? Is one truck on each car tightened up so the truck swings freely but does not rock? And is the other truck given a tad more slack so that it can rock a little bit to keep the wheels on the track should the track be a bit off level?
Try keeping notes on your derailments, which car, which end, where on the layout. A pattern may emerge.
Check your track work. Track gauge. Kinks. Is the track level from side to side? Do you have grades? If so, is the "vertical curve" leading into and out of the grade smooth, or is it an abrupt kink? Are the points of all the turnouts pressed hard up against the stock rails, turnout set in both diections? Do all the turnouts feel smooth to the finger?
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
JPD I should have mentioned the track radii. It is 32 inches on the outer track and 30 inches on the inner track. So far I have done my testing on the outer track.
I should have mentioned the track radii. It is 32 inches on the outer track and 30 inches on the inner track. So far I have done my testing on the outer track.
JPD Also, another frustration is that when I go slow over the same trouble spot, nothing happens. The troubles start when my throttle is set to about 25 percent or higher. This makes troubleshooting more difficult.
Also, another frustration is that when I go slow over the same trouble spot, nothing happens. The troubles start when my throttle is set to about 25 percent or higher. This makes troubleshooting more difficult.
When I mention testing at slow speeds, it gives you a better opportunity to see how the wheels are performing around curves and over turnouts. Even at slow speeds, wheels will lift off the rails if not perfectly aligned.
JPD I am in agreement that track work has to be the issue. Tomorrow I will go over the troubled sections inch by inch. In general, the derailments are near turnouts and curves. I will specifically check for dips and bumps. By the way, the outer curves are superelevated.
I am in agreement that track work has to be the issue. Tomorrow I will go over the troubled sections inch by inch. In general, the derailments are near turnouts and curves. I will specifically check for dips and bumps.
By the way, the outer curves are superelevated.
Six wheeled trucks (locomotve, passenger car, or freight car) are simply more sensitive to track problems and more prone to derailment.
A model train truck with rigid side frames is only guaranteed to have three of the wheels on the track at one time. Any imperfections in the track can cause a wheel to lift. On a six wheel truck three wheels can lift.
Equalized four wheel freight car trucks solve this problem, and all four wheels will stay in contact with the rails over faulty areas, Unfortunately, equalized six wheel trucks are much more tempermental.
As mentioned by others, the root cause is probably in the trackwork, and the six wheeled trucks just make it more obvious.
Ed, thanks for the tips regarding the dome car, I will have to give them a try.
Thanks guys for all the tips, keep them coming. I will update this as I make progress.