richhotrain I am now dreading the arrival of the new trucks from Kadee. Assembly sounds like a nightmare.
The trucks will be fully assembled and the #562 is not actually sprung, it simply has springs molded into the sideframes to look like springs. No need to dread the arrival.
They will have the mounting screw held in place by a thin plastic tab that is almost like a hair pin (bobby pin?) This tab or clip simply holds the screw and the centering insert in place during shipping AND it is a handy assembly aid.
When you turn the truck over for installing the screw it helps retain that centering piece and when the screw is driven far enough into the car body you simple pull off the split plastic "clip" and remove it.
It takes longer to describe than to actually do it. This is a fun hobby, nothing to dread or have assembly nightmares over.
https://www.kadee.com/documents/truck_and_wheel.pdf
When your package arrives it should look something like this:
Kadee_pkg-3 by Edmund, on Flickr
And the trucks will be resting on a vacuum-formed cradle:
Kadee_pkg-2 by Edmund, on Flickr
The screw-retainer-clip thing will be gripping the threads of the mounting screw.
Kadee_pkg-1 by Edmund, on Flickr
Nothing to fear. IF you take the clip off prematurely, the screw may fall out along with the small plastic thimble with the centering bosses. Still nothing to worry about nor have nightmares.
Kadee_pkg by Edmund, on Flickr
However, at this point the two halves of the bolster can easily be separated if you try to hold the truck and do not carefully support the bolster with downward finger pressure. The two halves interlock and by lifting in the center causes them to "unlock" whereby the axles will fall out and the brake beam molding will become unclipped.
This is why it is suggested, but not mandatory, to keep that thin clip in place until the mounting screw is almost seated. Then with a slight tug (forceps or small needle-nose pliers help here) carefully remove the clip and continue to snug the screw. Before final tightening be sure the little centering bosses are at 90° to the center sill or parallel with the body bolster.
Cheers, Ed
I am beginning to wonder what I got myself into with these trucks.
When I bought my string of covered hoppers back in 2005 or 2006, I started out with three 3-car sets from KATO. Each 3-car set was a different road name and each hopper had a different number. I wanted 12 covered hoppers in total, but that was all that KATO offered, so I picked up three covered hoppers in a different road name from Kadee.
Back then, I could care less whether trucks were sprung and/or self-centering. So when one of the Kadee covered hoppers started derailing recently, I removed it from the layout to check out the problem. In hindhight, when I realized that the wheelsets had a build-up of crud on the wheels, I should have left the truck on the car and cleaned the wheels that way instead of removing the trucks to get at the wheels.
When the truck assembly broke apart and I couldn't get it securely back together, I called Kadee and spoke to Sam The Answer Man who said that the replacement truck was #562, a self-centering sprung truck. But, now that I look at photos of the #562, that is not the same truck that is on the three Kadee covered hoppers, probably because those covered hoppers are now 15 or 16 years old. The current trucks are sprung, but they are definitely one piece, not two piece, bolsters.
I appreciate all of the advice, but I still do not fully understand the use of the "clip". I also cannot figure out why I cannot re-assemble the current truck, but it simply won't stay together, so something must be broke. I am now dreading the arrival of the new trucks from Kadee.
Assembly sounds like a nightmare.
Rich
Alton Junction
LastspikemikeWhat's not obvious is how this is "much better" than just using Kadee's clip supplied with every such truck.
Mike
For those who are lost like me, Kadee describes the truck as:
So, from what I understand, the self-centering action is not about operations, it's about centering the truck to facilitate the placement of the car on the track by the "five finger crane". I'm guessing that it could interfere with how the truck handles rough track.
Simon
Here's a couple photos I had on hand that I used to reply to an older thread of the #581 Kadee self-centering truck :
Kadee_caboose-truck-situ by Edmund, on Flickr
Just under the screw head you can see the centering boss that has to remain perpendicular to the car center-line.
I mounted these to an AMB Laserkit NYC caboose. They are perfect for this application as they match the T section and spring package that many NYC cabooses used.
You can see how the bolster interlocks and the brake beam clips on using four engagement tabs:
Kadee_caboose-truck by Edmund, on Flickr
Also note the "footprint" of the four circular marks on the body bolster or center sill. This is where the "centering" device grips the body bolster, held in place by the 2-56 screw.
The self-centering feature is, perhaps, handy but not exactly a necessity for me, anyway. If adapting them to existing car bolsters some filing is required and they don't lend themselves well to using the red or gray shim washers at all.
Good Luck, Ed
JPD Progress Report I now have the Chippewa heavyweight passenger train running counter-clockwise without derailments and shorts about 90 percent of the time. What have I learned so far?
richhotrain Can you explain this technique a bit more?
No, as Mike explained, it does not work, just like all my techniques I have developed over 40 years in this hobby.
I will let others who know more help out.
Lastspikemike They don't really work all that well to self center
Yup, Kadee is well known for making false claims about poorly engineered products that do not work well. Thank for pointing that out and setting us straight Mike. I was living in a fantasy world where Kadee makes quality products until now.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL When the screw and the center pin are on the freight car, the two piece truck bolster is trapped together. The little piece of plastic clips on the screw, and acts just like the body bolster on the car. Sheldon I guess that I am clueless on freight car trucks. Right now, I am trapped on my chair by my sleeping cat. LOL. When I can get up, I need to look more closely at the trucks on my Kadee covered hopper. If I understand the term bolster correctly, I think mine are one piece, not two piece. Also, on the #562 truck, it is referred to as a "self-centering" truck. What does this mean and how does it work? Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL When the screw and the center pin are on the freight car, the two piece truck bolster is trapped together. The little piece of plastic clips on the screw, and acts just like the body bolster on the car. Sheldon
When the screw and the center pin are on the freight car, the two piece truck bolster is trapped together.
The little piece of plastic clips on the screw, and acts just like the body bolster on the car.
Sheldon
I guess that I am clueless on freight car trucks. Right now, I am trapped on my chair by my sleeping cat. LOL. When I can get up, I need to look more closely at the trucks on my Kadee covered hopper.
If I understand the term bolster correctly, I think mine are one piece, not two piece.
Also, on the #562 truck, it is referred to as a "self-centering" truck. What does this mean and how does it work?
Unless someone else can, I will post pictures later. Working now.
SeeYou190 This is only an issue with the self-centering HGC trucks. A much better option is to simply drill and tap a short piece of plastic for 2-56 and screw the trucks to this piece. There is no way they can come apart like this.
This is only an issue with the self-centering HGC trucks.
A much better option is to simply drill and tap a short piece of plastic for 2-56 and screw the trucks to this piece. There is no way they can come apart like this.
LastspikemikeUntil you take the screws out. If I recall correctly the factory supplied clip stays in place until you start the mounting screw and then you pull out the clip and finish tightening the screw.
Never mind.
I guess the foolproof technique I have been using for years simply won't work. Just like the ways I control trains, how I wire terminal ends, how I build benchwork, how I clean my airbrush, and all my other flaws you have pointed out.
Thank you for correcting me.
Isn't it a miracle I have completed any models worthy of photographing and sharing?
richhotrainI bought the Kadee covered hoppers years ago, but I always save the boxes. I found these in the box. Are these the clips you are referring to?
ATLANTIC CENTRALTo make them equalized, it is complex, expensive, there are lots of styles, less standardized mouting on models, all making it not the best product market for them.
Yes I know. I talked to Sam about it at the National Train Show in Orlando. They coould have done ot 30 years ago, but no one will accept a generic "4 wheel passenger" truck now.
Lastspikemike richhotrain Lastspikemike There's a bit of a trick to holding these Kadee trucks together in one hand if they're not mounted to a car. There's a plastic retaining clip that comes installed on each of the trucks when packaged new. Handy to keep those clips in case you want to take the trucks off for any reason. I bought the Kadee covered hoppers years ago, but I always save the boxes. I found these in the box. Are these the clips you are referring to? Rich Yes. If you pull the trucks off the car for any reason slip these back on and the truck won't fall apart in your hand. You could ask me how I found this out but you can probably guess.
richhotrain Lastspikemike There's a bit of a trick to holding these Kadee trucks together in one hand if they're not mounted to a car. There's a plastic retaining clip that comes installed on each of the trucks when packaged new. Handy to keep those clips in case you want to take the trucks off for any reason. I bought the Kadee covered hoppers years ago, but I always save the boxes. I found these in the box. Are these the clips you are referring to? Rich
Lastspikemike There's a bit of a trick to holding these Kadee trucks together in one hand if they're not mounted to a car. There's a plastic retaining clip that comes installed on each of the trucks when packaged new. Handy to keep those clips in case you want to take the trucks off for any reason.
There's a bit of a trick to holding these Kadee trucks together in one hand if they're not mounted to a car. There's a plastic retaining clip that comes installed on each of the trucks when packaged new. Handy to keep those clips in case you want to take the trucks off for any reason.
I bought the Kadee covered hoppers years ago, but I always save the boxes. I found these in the box. Are these the clips you are referring to?
Yes. If you pull the trucks off the car for any reason slip these back on and the truck won't fall apart in your hand.
You could ask me how I found this out but you can probably guess.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Kadee offers a wide selection of sprung trucks. Mine are #562. https://www.kadee.com/documents/truck_and_wheel.pdf Rich And now they also offer trucks that are equalized but not sprung, and are made of "high gravity compound", a heavy plastic. They are described on that same flyer. Sheldon The HGC trucks are actually what I have, #562, although a lot of the Kadee sprung trucks are actually metal. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Kadee offers a wide selection of sprung trucks. Mine are #562. https://www.kadee.com/documents/truck_and_wheel.pdf Rich And now they also offer trucks that are equalized but not sprung, and are made of "high gravity compound", a heavy plastic. They are described on that same flyer. Sheldon
richhotrain Kadee offers a wide selection of sprung trucks. Mine are #562. https://www.kadee.com/documents/truck_and_wheel.pdf Rich
Kadee offers a wide selection of sprung trucks. Mine are #562.
And now they also offer trucks that are equalized but not sprung, and are made of "high gravity compound", a heavy plastic.
They are described on that same flyer.
The HGC trucks are actually what I have, #562, although a lot of the Kadee sprung trucks are actually metal.
Yes, the ones with the actual springs are metal, the new HGC ones are not. But they flex to keep all the wheels on the rail because of their multi piece sideframe.
And yes they too will come apart in your hand if removed or flexed too far.
I use them too.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well Rich, in an ideal world, all your freight cars should have a similar weight for best performance........ And, part of that nice weight of those Kadee cars, is those metal trucks....... You had no idea when you got into this hobby that you were going to earn a PhD in mechanical engineering did you? Sheldon
Well Rich, in an ideal world, all your freight cars should have a similar weight for best performance........
And, part of that nice weight of those Kadee cars, is those metal trucks.......
You had no idea when you got into this hobby that you were going to earn a PhD in mechanical engineering did you?
I guess it is never too late...
I must say, the Kadee covered hoppers are among my favorite freight cars. I also have a number of Kato covered hoppers. No idea what kind of trucks are on those Kato cars, so I better check.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Thanks, Sheldon. I just read through an old thread from 2007 with mixed reviews for Kadee metal spring trucks. http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/92825.aspx Rich Well, that was pretty funny to read for someone who has been running sprung trucks with no problems for 53 years on a fleet of freight cars that is now nearly 1000 in number, and who pulls 50 and even 100 car trains of them. Pruitt summed it up pretty well, there are/were some junky ones over the years and you have to know what you are doing....... But actually my testing shows the average freight car does weigh enough to flex a kadee or similar quality sprung truck and keep all the wheels on the rails all the time. But I assure you, I'm not going much deeper in this discussion because it is a road I have been down too many times. A good search of this topic will find pages and pages I have written on the subject. Sheldon In my case, the Kadee sprung trucks are on Kadee cars, and the cars are nicely weighted, so chances are that the springs do have some positive effect. Anyhow, I had to chuckle to realize that I actually own some freight cars with metal sprung trucks. As I say, who knew? Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Thanks, Sheldon. I just read through an old thread from 2007 with mixed reviews for Kadee metal spring trucks. http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/92825.aspx Rich Well, that was pretty funny to read for someone who has been running sprung trucks with no problems for 53 years on a fleet of freight cars that is now nearly 1000 in number, and who pulls 50 and even 100 car trains of them. Pruitt summed it up pretty well, there are/were some junky ones over the years and you have to know what you are doing....... But actually my testing shows the average freight car does weigh enough to flex a kadee or similar quality sprung truck and keep all the wheels on the rails all the time. But I assure you, I'm not going much deeper in this discussion because it is a road I have been down too many times. A good search of this topic will find pages and pages I have written on the subject. Sheldon
richhotrain Thanks, Sheldon. I just read through an old thread from 2007 with mixed reviews for Kadee metal spring trucks. http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/92825.aspx Rich
Thanks, Sheldon.
I just read through an old thread from 2007 with mixed reviews for Kadee metal spring trucks.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/92825.aspx
Well, that was pretty funny to read for someone who has been running sprung trucks with no problems for 53 years on a fleet of freight cars that is now nearly 1000 in number, and who pulls 50 and even 100 car trains of them.
Pruitt summed it up pretty well, there are/were some junky ones over the years and you have to know what you are doing.......
But actually my testing shows the average freight car does weigh enough to flex a kadee or similar quality sprung truck and keep all the wheels on the rails all the time.
But I assure you, I'm not going much deeper in this discussion because it is a road I have been down too many times. A good search of this topic will find pages and pages I have written on the subject.
In my case, the Kadee sprung trucks are on Kadee cars, and the cars are nicely weighted, so chances are that the springs do have some positive effect.
Anyhow, I had to chuckle to realize that I actually own some freight cars with metal sprung trucks. As I say, who knew?
BigDaddy richhotrain I just read through an old thread from 2007 I only recoginized 4 posters, 3 of which are still active in the forum. I think I have some Walthers? plastic sprung trucks and I was always skeptical that the springs could overcome the friction of the plastic. The Central Valley trucks seem a little more plausibe, but we often say physics doesn't scale down to HO. Until I get my layout up and running, label me as spring agnostic.
richhotrain I just read through an old thread from 2007
I only recoginized 4 posters, 3 of which are still active in the forum. I think I have some Walthers? plastic sprung trucks and I was always skeptical that the springs could overcome the friction of the plastic.
The Central Valley trucks seem a little more plausibe, but we often say physics doesn't scale down to HO. Until I get my layout up and running, label me as spring agnostic.
The springs don't need to overcome the friction of the plastic. And the plastic is slippery delrin like rigid frame trucks in most cases of sprung plastic trucks, like Walthers.
The springs only compress a very little amount, not from the weight of the car, but from the flexing of the sideframes.
Most better plastic sprung trucks, like the ones Walthers made for decades, Lindberg (sold under the EB name,and I think still around with a new ower) and others work fine.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LMH-EB-Freight-Trucks-T327BCR-TIMKEN-Fully-SPRUNG-Equalized-METAL-Wheels-0-6-oz-/312561885714
The "flopper" they are off the track, the better they are working on the track, like Rich found out with his Kadee car.
Not sure how much you can see, but here is a set of Kadees on one of my piggy fleet.
BigDaddy richhotrain I just read through an old thread from 2007 I only recoginized 4 posters, 3 of which are still active in the forum. I think I have some Walthers? plastic sprung trucks and I was always skeptical that the springs could overcome the friction of the plastic.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL By the way, you did not need to get a whole new truck from Kadee - they sell the replacement springs and they are not that hard to re-assemble.
By the way, you did not need to get a whole new truck from Kadee - they sell the replacement springs and they are not that hard to re-assemble.
richhotrainI just read through an old thread from 2007
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Just google or search on Ebay for "Central Valley Passenger Trucks" and you will see what sprung equalized passenger trucks look like. These were state of the art when I got in the hobby.
They consist of lots separate parts, little springs, and move in a way similar to, but not exactly, like their prototypes.
By the way, you did not need to get a whole new truck from Kadee - they sell the replacement springs and they are not that hard to re-assmemble. I learned to do it at age 10, all my Varney, Athearn and other early 60's rolling stock had sprung trucks.
I tried these "new" rigid plastic trucks for a while, but as I got more interested in longer trains, I found all those old lessons about railroad physics were true.
In my case, the Kadee metal trucks, refitted with Intermountain wheelsets, roll more freely, track better, and add weight down low where it does the most good, often elminating the need for other extra weight.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL SeeYou190 Why why why does Kadee not make HO scale passenger car trucks? In N scale, Microtrains passenger car trucks solved all the problems with all makes of N scale passenger cars in the 1980s and 1990s. -Kevin To make them equalized, it is complex, expensive, there are lots of styles, less standardized mouting on models, all making it does the best product market for them. While not equalized, Walthers is already selling their trucks separately, as are others. Look at the discussions on this forum where you and I, and a few others explain the value of equalized trucks that largely falls on deaf ears. As much ascI would like nice free rolling equalized passenger trucks, I'm not holding my breath. I still have a few Central Valley passenger trucks on a few pieces of equipment, but while sprung and equalized, they could be more free rolling. Sheldon What is the difference between equalized trucks and sprung trucks? I never knew that I had any rolling stock with sprung trucks until today when a Kadee covered hopper started derailing on a turnout while backing up. I removed the car from the layout and inspected it on the workbench. Turned out, the wheels were coated with crud. While cleaning the wheels, the truck basically exploded in my hands. Who knew? It was a metal sprung truck. I had to order a new one from Kadee. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL SeeYou190 Why why why does Kadee not make HO scale passenger car trucks? In N scale, Microtrains passenger car trucks solved all the problems with all makes of N scale passenger cars in the 1980s and 1990s. -Kevin To make them equalized, it is complex, expensive, there are lots of styles, less standardized mouting on models, all making it does the best product market for them. While not equalized, Walthers is already selling their trucks separately, as are others. Look at the discussions on this forum where you and I, and a few others explain the value of equalized trucks that largely falls on deaf ears. As much ascI would like nice free rolling equalized passenger trucks, I'm not holding my breath. I still have a few Central Valley passenger trucks on a few pieces of equipment, but while sprung and equalized, they could be more free rolling. Sheldon
SeeYou190 Why why why does Kadee not make HO scale passenger car trucks? In N scale, Microtrains passenger car trucks solved all the problems with all makes of N scale passenger cars in the 1980s and 1990s. -Kevin
Why why why does Kadee not make HO scale passenger car trucks?
In N scale, Microtrains passenger car trucks solved all the problems with all makes of N scale passenger cars in the 1980s and 1990s.
To make them equalized, it is complex, expensive, there are lots of styles, less standardized mouting on models, all making it does the best product market for them.
While not equalized, Walthers is already selling their trucks separately, as are others.
Look at the discussions on this forum where you and I, and a few others explain the value of equalized trucks that largely falls on deaf ears.
As much ascI would like nice free rolling equalized passenger trucks, I'm not holding my breath.
I still have a few Central Valley passenger trucks on a few pieces of equipment, but while sprung and equalized, they could be more free rolling.
What is the difference between equalized trucks and sprung trucks?
I never knew that I had any rolling stock with sprung trucks until today when a Kadee covered hopper started derailing on a turnout while backing up. I removed the car from the layout and inspected it on the workbench.
Turned out, the wheels were coated with crud. While cleaning the wheels, the truck basically exploded in my hands. Who knew? It was a metal sprung truck. I had to order a new one from Kadee.
An equalized truck is truck designed to allow flexing or moving of the sideframes to keep all wheels on the rails all the time and apply equal weight on all wheels.
By definition, sprung trucks like your Kadee freight car are equalized. Most of my freight cars have Kadee trucks, refitted with Intermountain wheelsets.
Years ago in this hobby, some trucks were made with sideframes screwed to a bolster such that the sideframes could pivot on the bolster at the attachment screw, this provided equalization without providing any "spring" action.
Most sprung trucks like Kadee, have always been sprung too stiff to actually compress from the weight of the car. So the springs are actually just dampeners for the equalization movement.
In the 40's, 50's and into the 60's, most "better" HO freight trucks were sprung or equalized as were many passenger trucks like those made by Central Valley.