1. Tested with the NMRA standards gauge all the passenger car wheels. Some were out of gauge.
2. Also used the NMRA standards gauge to check all the flanges and points near the spots where I am getting derailments or shorts.
3. All the passenger cars now have Kadee couplers. I tested them with the Kadee gauge to verify they are aligned correctly.
4. I cleaned the wheels of the passenger cars.
5. I resoldered some drops where I felt with my fingers that the solder was interfering with the top of the tracks.
6. Verified that all the cars are properly weighted.
While the 6-wheel trucks are manifesting the problem, the problem is likely your track work. 6-wheel trucks are much less tolerant of track flaws than are 4-wheel trucks.
I have had similar problems on my new layout until I methodically tested every inch of track. Most of the problems were on curves and on turnouts.
Any humps or valleys, no matter how minor, can raise a truck off the rails.
If one rail is higher or lower than the other rail, that is another problem.
Kinks on rail joints on curves will derail 6-wheel trucks.
Slight vertical rises where track sections connect, caused by poorly fitting rail, joiners will do it.
You need to do some detective work at slow speeds to find the glitches.
Rich
Alton Junction
sounds like some trucks on the passenger cars are able to swing more one way than the others. From my personal experience the best way to fix this is to record the cars going past various trouble spots in slow motion with your phone and diagnose it that way.
The shorts are likely caused when the wheels touch over various parts of turnouts.
In any case, it just sounds like either poor track work, or overly tight curves. The best idea is to fix your trackwork. That being said, if you want to make your cars perform better, here's some advice from someone with tight curves:
(1) I had to mod all my heavyweight equipment by cutting down on the centerbeam frames of the passenger cars to allow the trucks to swing more left and right in order for them to run reliably on my 22" radius curves. I know they look terrible on them but you gotta work with what you got.
(2) Other cars, I noticed the diaphrams were too stiff and would push against each other and derail the car. This can be resolved by using longer shank couplers, or bending the diaphragm springs to be less compressive from the inside of the car.
(3) Also make sure the screw that holds the truck on isnt too loose, but also not too tight (there should be SOME body wobble).
Good luck,
Charles
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
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Trainman440(3) Also make sure the screw that holds the truck on isnt too loose, but also not too tight (there should be SOME body wobble).
That was my first thought, whenever a car derails I generally check out the truck screws. I've found that loosening them a bit often fixes the problem. I'd rather have a car that wobbles a tiny bit but doesn't derail if push comes to shove.
What is the track radius ? ... If too tight, it may be an issue.
I would check to see if the trucks are pivoting without any obstructions. Possibly one corner of the truck is striking agains a step or a coupler box.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
I have a Milwaukee Road Superdome and it was one of my more troublesome cars to get to run reliably. The clearance between the top of the truck and the car floor is very tight.
Besides a very short bolster screw, which doesn't give you mush leeway in making them just a little "looser" the design of the Walthers cars rely on four screw heads that contact slightly sprung metal strips in the car floor.
I've had success at making some cars run better by using a good, fine mill file and knocking off a bit of the "crown" on these screws. Sometimes the slots are a little buggered up so evening them with a file can help.
Here's a four-wheel truck but the screw heads are similar:
Rapido-Truck1 by Edmund, on Flickr
When you put the bolster screw back in I like to put a small drop of PVA or any good white glue (Elmers) to act as a thread locker. Not quite as aggressive as Locktite but enough so that you can loosen the screw without it eventually working out.
I also seem to recall having to file "something" on the truck tops to gain more clearance for the truck to rock. It may have been brake cylinders or equalizer arms. Don't recall at the moment but I can look at the car later to see if it jogs my memory.
These ARE some big cars:
Super-Dome by Edmund, on Flickr
I have also run into some cars running better in one direction over the other. Not just six wheel stuff, either. Many of my main line curves are superelevated and I'm sure the transition is smoother in some places rather than others. As previously mentioned, a lot of trial and error, close inspection and shimming, filing and tweaking of the trackwork has to be done.
Good Luck, Ed
I should have mentioned the track radii. It is 32 inches on the outer track and 30 inches on the inner track. So far I have done my testing on the outer track.
Also, another frustration is that when I go slow over the same trouble spot, nothing happens. The troubles start when my throttle is set to about 25 percent or higher. This makes troubleshooting more difficult.
Ed, thanks for the tips regarding the dome car, I will have to give them a try.
I am in agreement that track work has to be the issue. Tomorrow I will go over the troubled sections inch by inch. In general, the derailments are near turnouts and curves. I will specifically check for dips and bumps.
By the way, the outer curves are superelevated.
Thanks guys for all the tips, keep them coming. I will update this as I make progress.
Six wheeled trucks (locomotve, passenger car, or freight car) are simply more sensitive to track problems and more prone to derailment.
A model train truck with rigid side frames is only guaranteed to have three of the wheels on the track at one time. Any imperfections in the track can cause a wheel to lift. On a six wheel truck three wheels can lift.
Equalized four wheel freight car trucks solve this problem, and all four wheels will stay in contact with the rails over faulty areas, Unfortunately, equalized six wheel trucks are much more tempermental.
As mentioned by others, the root cause is probably in the trackwork, and the six wheeled trucks just make it more obvious.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
JPD I should have mentioned the track radii. It is 32 inches on the outer track and 30 inches on the inner track. So far I have done my testing on the outer track.
JPD Also, another frustration is that when I go slow over the same trouble spot, nothing happens. The troubles start when my throttle is set to about 25 percent or higher. This makes troubleshooting more difficult.
When I mention testing at slow speeds, it gives you a better opportunity to see how the wheels are performing around curves and over turnouts. Even at slow speeds, wheels will lift off the rails if not perfectly aligned.
JPD I am in agreement that track work has to be the issue. Tomorrow I will go over the troubled sections inch by inch. In general, the derailments are near turnouts and curves. I will specifically check for dips and bumps. By the way, the outer curves are superelevated.
As to the derails only in one direction, all the trailing point turnouts become facing point turnouts when going the other way. Facing point turnouts are more derailment prone if anything is even slightly wrong. Trailing point turnouts allow the wheels to push them up against the stock rails. The one thing you did not mention checking on the rolling stock is truck free swing. Be sure that the trucks swing freely in both directions and don't get hung up on coupler boxes, centerbeams or underbody details. Do all your Kadee gladhands clear all the turnouts and crossovers? Is one truck on each car tightened up so the truck swings freely but does not rock? And is the other truck given a tad more slack so that it can rock a little bit to keep the wheels on the track should the track be a bit off level?
Try keeping notes on your derailments, which car, which end, where on the layout. A pattern may emerge.
Check your track work. Track gauge. Kinks. Is the track level from side to side? Do you have grades? If so, is the "vertical curve" leading into and out of the grade smooth, or is it an abrupt kink? Are the points of all the turnouts pressed hard up against the stock rails, turnout set in both diections? Do all the turnouts feel smooth to the finger?
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
dstarr As to the derails only in one direction, all the trailing point turnouts become facing point turnouts when going the other way. Facing point turnouts are more derailment prone if anything is even slightly wrong. Trailing point turnouts allow the wheels to push them up against the stock rails.
As to the derails only in one direction, all the trailing point turnouts become facing point turnouts when going the other way. Facing point turnouts are more derailment prone if anything is even slightly wrong. Trailing point turnouts allow the wheels to push them up against the stock rails.
As gmpullman said, the usual culprit on Walthers passenger car derailments is due to the screwheads having burrs on top of them. When they assemble these trucks in China, they use powered screwdrivers. If the clutch isn't set right, the screwdriver can "cam out" and lift a little bur out of the Phillips screw top.
Whenever I have a derailing Walthers passenger car, the first thing I do is file the heads of the screws on the trucks. Not a lot, but just enough to smooth it all out so it slides real easy on the contact pad.
I notice that 'truck tuning' isn't on the list of improvements tried. I recommend that it should be...
My understanding of stable running was that one end of the car be set to smooth pivoting only, and the other one allowed a little 'twist'. If that is not done, then some form of constant-contact side bearing would be needed on at least one truck, and that contact area would be something that might preferentially hang up in one direction as noted.
Just for grins, take the center axles completely out (thereby simulating long-wheelbase 4-wheel trucks) and see if the issues persist.
OvermodMy understanding of stable running was that one end of the car be set to smooth pivoting only, and the other one allowed a little 'twist'.
This only worked well on shorter freight cars, and it never worked as well as a pair of equalized trucks that pivoted only.
On longer passenger cars both trucks should be set with just a little twist. I think this might be why most passenger car trucks have such a larger contact area where they meet the bolster.
In three dimensional terms, all trucks need to yaw. When you set a truck loose you desire pitch to help the car maintain more wheel contact, unfortunately loosening the screw also allows roll, which is less desirable.
I want to thank all of you for your advice. This is clearly going to take me some time to fix. Apparently, my track laying is not perfect. I plan on testing, testing, testing until all my passenger trains run smoothly, in both directions, on the mainline, the sidings, the yard, and on the wye. I will then test my freight trains again to verify they still run smoothing, especially in the sidings and yard. I will not be doing any ballasting until the passenger and freight trains run smoothing 99 percent of the time.
JPDI want to thank all of you for your advice. This is clearly going to take me some time to fix. Apparently, my track laying is not perfect. I plan on testing, testing, testing until all my passenger trains run smoothly, in both directions, on the mainline, the sidings, the yard, and on the wye. I will then test my freight trains again to verify they still run smoothing, especially in the sidings and yard. I will not be doing any ballasting until the passenger and freight trains run smoothing 99 percent of the time.
Kudos to you for looking into the situation and finding the problem.
Lastspikemike At 1/87 any variations in flatness are going to be huge compared to prototype even though they don't look it. Model trains handle poor track much better than any prototype could.
At 1/87 any variations in flatness are going to be huge compared to prototype even though they don't look it. Model trains handle poor track much better than any prototype could.
That has to be the biggest frustration for anyone new entering the world of scale model railroading, poor track work leading to derailments and unintended uncouplings.
Another quick update.
I now know part of the clockwise / counter-clockwise derailments problem. The diner car has an extra set of steps on a door just over the truck. It is only on oneside. The truck hits the steps and cannot swing far enough. If I physically pick up the car, turn it around, and go over the same curve, then it works fine because the truck no longer hits the steps.
Two cars that kept derailing I checked again and noticed that the wheels on the trucks did not spin well. I used the Micro-Mark Truck Turner to fix these wheels.When I built my layout I kept it to two feet wide with one exception. The area where I will be placing the turntable and roundhouse is three feet. I feared that if derailments were going to happen they would happen here. And of course this has become one of the trouble spots. I can fix this, but it is going to be a challenge. Glad I do not have any tunnels because deraiments would also have to happen there per Murphy's Law.
I am down to two problem track areas. Hopefully, I will nail them tomorrow.
JPD, glad you are getting it figured out.
But this all speaks to the fact that with all this scale detail, 32" radius is really tight for 80' long cars.
Space is a consideration for all of us, but bigger is always better when it comes to curves, just ask the full size railroaders.
Sheldon
LastspikemikeThey're not contradictory. Even flat looking HO track is very bumpy but our models ride over bumps that railway engineers would regard as requiring repair.
Prototype trains do handle poor trackwork better than models.
They have real weight, fully equalized trucks with partial spring compression, and all the physics is in their favor.
SeeYou190They have real weight, fully equalized trucks with partial spring compression, and all the physics is in their favor.
Not to mention that in HO a real flange would scale to 0.0115".
Lastspikemike They're not contradictory.
They're not contradictory.
Lastspikemike Even flat looking HO track is very bumpy but our models ride over bumps that railway engineers would regard as requiring repair. Those bumps don't look that bad because at 1/87 they are tiny. If HO scale track actually looks bumpy then in real life it would be impassable. On my as yet not glued down track trains don't derail when the unsupported bits of track move several mm vertically. That's inches of unsupported vertical movement of rails in real life. 87 mm is more than 3". That's only 1mm in HO scale, impossible to see.
Even flat looking HO track is very bumpy but our models ride over bumps that railway engineers would regard as requiring repair. Those bumps don't look that bad because at 1/87 they are tiny.
If HO scale track actually looks bumpy then in real life it would be impassable.
On my as yet not glued down track trains don't derail when the unsupported bits of track move several mm vertically. That's inches of unsupported vertical movement of rails in real life. 87 mm is more than 3". That's only 1mm in HO scale, impossible to see.
First of all, flat looking HO scale track is not very bumpy, not even bumpy at all. The way that HO scale track is designed, the rails are supported by a web of plastic ties aided by plastic spikes all along both sides of each rail. When I put a 4' level on top of the rails on a straight run of flex track, there are no bumps. If the track section is intact, it is virtually impossible to make it bumpy.
Second of all, when you say that your unsecured track moves several millimeters vertically, quantify "several". There are 25.4 mm in an inch, so 5 mm is just over 3/16". If a piece of rolling stock moves several millimeters vertically, repeatedly, over "bumpy" track, that piece of rolling stock is going to derail.
Third of all, you mention "several mm", then reference 87mm, and finally conclude that you are only talking about 1mm. Which is it?
The real issue with derailments on poor track work is what I call "humps" and "valleys", often caused by faulty roadbed or subroadbed, unsecured sections of track like your vertical movements, unsecured sections of rail often caused by missing spikes (particularly on curves where ties are removed to accommodate soldered rail joiners) and opposing rails at different heights. Once a wheel lifts off the rail, if it fails to reseat itself before it reaches a curve, or before it exits a curve, or before it reaches a turnout, the truck will derail.
Another cause of derailments with model passenger trains is diaphragms rubbing together on curves. For model trains , it is best to have enough coupling distance to prevent that from happening even though the real trains had diaphragms tightly together.
gmpullmanNot to mention that in HO a real flange would scale to 0.0115".
This did not sound right, so I looked it up and did the math.
It is right.
That is about 3 human hairs! I knew our flanges were oversized, but a scale flange would be nearly invisible!
Heartland Division CB&QAnother cause of derailments with model passenger trains is diaphragms rubbing together on curves. For model trains , it is best to have enough coupling distance to prevent that from happening even though the real trains had diaphragms tightly together.
True. I tried lots of experiments to get touching diaphrams on passenger car and still have them run on a 24 inch curve. Old MHP brand Neoprene diaphrams were close to successful, but still not workable.
To return to the original topic, when you troubleshoot problems like this it is odd and fascinating what effect seemingly tiny variances have on trackability of our models. When I had finished a project of a long string of 50' boxcars equipped with cushion underframes (on the prototypes) and thus I installed Walthers and another make of extended coupler pockets on them, I tried them out on some challenging (and admittedly, perhaps not ideally laid) track. Cars that would sail through a couple of crossovers at fairly high speed (shoved by my "0-5-0") could not always do so if coupled to another car. Yet something like swapping out the wheelsets could make a different. Or turning a car around, or swapping the trucks from one end to the other. Or reversing the order in which they were coupled. Or just waiting a while and trying again.
One comment about passenger cars. I have several from one of Walthers's early runs of the smooth side Pullman Standard double deck commuter cars (C&NW, and four wheel trucks by the way). They gave me no end of trouble but someone on this Forum commented that on the bolster Walthers used a metal foil presumably to conduct electricity for interior lighting. That foil was bunched up and when smoothed out, most of the problems seemed to be addressed. I do not know if Walthers routinely uses foil in that way but it is worth checking out.
Dave Nelson
Since this thread has nothing to do with the prototype, debates on model vs prototype about trackwork seems a bit out of place...
On the other hand, I learned a whole lot about passenger car trucks and potential problems about them. I guess I've been lucky with mine so far, but I will keep the info handy for the future. Thanks.
Simon
Why why why does Kadee not make HO scale passenger car trucks?
In N scale, Microtrains passenger car trucks solved all the problems with all makes of N scale passenger cars in the 1980s and 1990s.
SeeYou190 Why why why does Kadee not make HO scale passenger car trucks? In N scale, Microtrains passenger car trucks solved all the problems with all makes of N scale passenger cars in the 1980s and 1990s. -Kevin
To make them equalized, it is complex, expensive, there are lots of styles, less standardized mouting on models, all making it not the best product market for them.
While not equalized, Walthers is already selling their trucks separately, as are others.
Look at the discussions on this forum where you and I, and a few others explain the value of equalized trucks that largely falls on deaf ears.
As much as I would like nice free rolling equalized passenger trucks, I'm not holding my breath.
I still have a few Central Valley passenger trucks on a few pieces of equipment, but while sprung and equalized, they could be more free rolling.
Lastspikemike snjroy Since this thread has nothing to do with the prototype, debates on model vs prototype about trackwork seems a bit out of place... On the other hand, I learned a whole lot about passenger car trucks and potential problems about them. I guess I've been lucky with mine so far, but I will keep the info handy for the future. Thanks. Simon My point was even ordinarily well laid track is going to be bumpy relatively speaking. We strive for good trackwork but scale effects do matter and they do restrict what is achievable. Our models are already made to work within limitations of HO scale track but improvements can be made there. Case in point: I'm rehabbing a CAD $3.00 Bachmann stock car. Kadee couplers mounted on the body (that's CAD $4.00 approx ) and CAD$3.00 Walther's sprung trucks from wherever and whenever upgraded with (probably) Rapido 33" wheel sets (what's that about another CAD$6.00?). A new comparable RTR from Athearn costs what about CAD$30.00 and still needs new couplers. Pushed on my not affixed rough layout track by my handy dandy always available 0-5-0 and the performance is nothing short of amazing compared to the original with its plastic trucks (complete with truck mounted horn and hook couplers). Real railroads experience derailments because of truck problems. So do we. It's worth bird dogging the trucks and couplers for just about any rolling stock worth running. For example, this era of Bachmann shells really aren't that bad but the running gear is awful. The Walthers heavyweights are pretty nice but really don't track well. It's worth looking into and fixing if it can be fixed.
snjroy Since this thread has nothing to do with the prototype, debates on model vs prototype about trackwork seems a bit out of place... On the other hand, I learned a whole lot about passenger car trucks and potential problems about them. I guess I've been lucky with mine so far, but I will keep the info handy for the future. Thanks. Simon
My point was even ordinarily well laid track is going to be bumpy relatively speaking. We strive for good trackwork but scale effects do matter and they do restrict what is achievable.
Our models are already made to work within limitations of HO scale track but improvements can be made there.
Case in point: I'm rehabbing a CAD $3.00 Bachmann stock car. Kadee couplers mounted on the body (that's CAD $4.00 approx ) and CAD$3.00 Walther's sprung trucks from wherever and whenever upgraded with (probably) Rapido 33" wheel sets (what's that about another CAD$6.00?). A new comparable RTR from Athearn costs what about CAD$30.00 and still needs new couplers.
Pushed on my not affixed rough layout track by my handy dandy always available 0-5-0 and the performance is nothing short of amazing compared to the original with its plastic trucks (complete with truck mounted horn and hook couplers).
Real railroads experience derailments because of truck problems. So do we. It's worth bird dogging the trucks and couplers for just about any rolling stock worth running. For example, this era of Bachmann shells really aren't that bad but the running gear is awful.
The Walthers heavyweights are pretty nice but really don't track well. It's worth looking into and fixing if it can be fixed.
This track was as flat as the lazer shows it being straight.
Of course is was not layed on foam, or cork or other "soft" materials........
Lazers, levels and straight edges were used to "engineer" the roadbed before the track was installed.......
And I still run equalized trucks on most of my freight cars......
But what do I know? I've been told I'm doing this all wrong because I don't use foam......