JPD I hope you folks do not mind my recording my observations here, but it is a way for me to document my progress and hopefully some will find this struggle of value. At least I am learning.
Rich
Alton Junction
JPD I have to add I picked up model railroad again, a hobby of my youth, when I retired because I thought it would be fun and relaxing. Not so much fun this week, not so relaxing. My other hobby, genealogy, was never this frustrating.
Your struggle is familiar to me because I have experienced many of the same problems that you are working your way through. Model railroading can be fun when things go well, but not so much fun when the frustrations kick in.
Just today, I cleared my freight yard to get a better reach into my coach yard on the other side of my double mainline to solder some rail joiners on the coach yard ladder. Loose rail joiners were failing to power the ladder, although the yard tracks were all receiving power from feeders placed throughout the yard.
When I was done soldering, I began to back up all of the freight cars into the freight yard off of the mainline. A Kadee covered hopper was giving me fits with derailments, so I pulled it off the layout and inspected it on the work bench. Turned out, a few wheels were coated in crud, and I mean coated. While cleaning the dirty wheels, the truck basically disintegrated in my hands. Had to call Sam The Answer Man at Kadee to figure out which truck to order as a replacement.
Not a fun morning.
JPD Today’s Lesson The end truck on the observation car keeps shorting at a frog after coming out of a curve. I can see exactly what is happening, but no adjusting of the tracks seems to help. All the other nine heavyweight cars with six-wheel trucks pass this area just fine. I checked the wheels again on the observation car with the NMRA standards gauge and it is compliant. I cannot flip the observation car around because it is an end car. So, I exchanged the end truck off of a coach and placed it on the observation car. Now the observation car works fine and oddly enough so does the coach! Because I am a glutton for punishment, today I decided to run the train clockwise, and lo and behold, it now is derailing and causing short in different spots from when it is running counter-clockwise. I swear two days ago it had no problem in this direction.
Is the observation car only shorting on one turnout? What brand of turnout is it?
You say that you can see exactly what is happening. What exactly is happening?
When you turned the train around and ran it clockwise, where is it derailing? On a turnout? Same turnout as before? More that one turnout?
You say that it is derailing and causing a short. That is not uncommon to short the mainline after a derailment. So, I assume that the derailment is the problem, not the resulting short. In other words, had the car not derailed, no short would have occurred.
Is the car derailing after coming out of a curve? Or is the derailment at a turnout following a stretch of straight track?
Tell us more.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL SeeYou190 Why why why does Kadee not make HO scale passenger car trucks? In N scale, Microtrains passenger car trucks solved all the problems with all makes of N scale passenger cars in the 1980s and 1990s. -Kevin To make them equalized, it is complex, expensive, there are lots of styles, less standardized mouting on models, all making it does the best product market for them. While not equalized, Walthers is already selling their trucks separately, as are others. Look at the discussions on this forum where you and I, and a few others explain the value of equalized trucks that largely falls on deaf ears. As much ascI would like nice free rolling equalized passenger trucks, I'm not holding my breath. I still have a few Central Valley passenger trucks on a few pieces of equipment, but while sprung and equalized, they could be more free rolling. Sheldon
SeeYou190 Why why why does Kadee not make HO scale passenger car trucks? In N scale, Microtrains passenger car trucks solved all the problems with all makes of N scale passenger cars in the 1980s and 1990s. -Kevin
Why why why does Kadee not make HO scale passenger car trucks?
In N scale, Microtrains passenger car trucks solved all the problems with all makes of N scale passenger cars in the 1980s and 1990s.
-Kevin
To make them equalized, it is complex, expensive, there are lots of styles, less standardized mouting on models, all making it does the best product market for them.
While not equalized, Walthers is already selling their trucks separately, as are others.
Look at the discussions on this forum where you and I, and a few others explain the value of equalized trucks that largely falls on deaf ears.
As much ascI would like nice free rolling equalized passenger trucks, I'm not holding my breath.
I still have a few Central Valley passenger trucks on a few pieces of equipment, but while sprung and equalized, they could be more free rolling.
Sheldon
I never knew that I had any rolling stock with sprung trucks until today when a Kadee covered hopper started derailing on a turnout while backing up. I removed the car from the layout and inspected it on the workbench.
Turned out, the wheels were coated with crud. While cleaning the wheels, the truck basically exploded in my hands. Who knew? It was a metal sprung truck. I had to order a new one from Kadee.
JPD Today’s Lesson The end truck on the observation car keeps shorting at a frog after coming out of a curve. I can see exactly what is happening, but no adjusting of the tracks seems to help. All the other nine heavyweight cars with six-wheel trucks pass this area just fine. I checked the wheels again on the observation car with the NMRA standards gauge and it is compliant. I cannot flip the observation car around because it is an end car. So, I exchanged the end truck off of a coach and placed it on the observation car. Now the observation car works fine and oddly enough so does the coach! Because I am a glutton for punishment, today I decided to run the train clockwise, and lo and behold, it now is derailing and causing short in different spots from when it is running counter-clockwise. I swear two days ago it had no problem in this direction. I am not going to give up, but in the meanwhile, when my grandchildren come over and want to run a passenger train, I think I will let them run the Con-Cor non-prototypical four-wheel shorter passenger cars. They are bullet proof on my layout. I hope you folks do not mind my recording my observations here, but it is a way for me to document my progress and hopefully some will find this struggle of value. At least I am learning. I have to add I picked up model railroad again, a hobby of my youth, when I retired because I thought it would be fun and relaxing. Not so much fun this week, not so relaxing. My other hobby, genealogy, was never this frustrating.
JPD, I understand. I have been at this hobby for 50 plus years, and had the opportunity to learn from some great modelers.
I'm getting ready to start building a new layout. It will have 36" radius minimum curves.
And guess what? I still choose to run mostly 72' passnger cars like ConCor and Athearn. Why you ask?
Because this detail, working touching diaphrgams, is more important to me than the individual cars being perfect scale models. None of my little HO passengers have to jump from car to car.
So, if you really want proto correct details, build a layout with 48" curves, replace the factory diaphragms with American Limited diaphragms which actually work, rework the couplers on those Walthers cars so the diaphragms touch and the cars are not 10 feet apart, and then you really have correct models.
OR
Decide which compromises you are willing to live with.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL So, if you really want proto correct details, build a layout with 48" curves, replace the factory diaphragms with American Limited diaphragms which actually work, rework the couplers on those Walthers cars so the diaphragms touch and the cars are not 10 feet apart, and then you really have correct models.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL SeeYou190 Why why why does Kadee not make HO scale passenger car trucks? In N scale, Microtrains passenger car trucks solved all the problems with all makes of N scale passenger cars in the 1980s and 1990s. -Kevin To make them equalized, it is complex, expensive, there are lots of styles, less standardized mouting on models, all making it does the best product market for them. While not equalized, Walthers is already selling their trucks separately, as are others. Look at the discussions on this forum where you and I, and a few others explain the value of equalized trucks that largely falls on deaf ears. As much ascI would like nice free rolling equalized passenger trucks, I'm not holding my breath. I still have a few Central Valley passenger trucks on a few pieces of equipment, but while sprung and equalized, they could be more free rolling. Sheldon What is the difference between equalized trucks and sprung trucks? I never knew that I had any rolling stock with sprung trucks until today when a Kadee covered hopper started derailing on a turnout while backing up. I removed the car from the layout and inspected it on the workbench. Turned out, the wheels were coated with crud. While cleaning the wheels, the truck basically exploded in my hands. Who knew? It was a metal sprung truck. I had to order a new one from Kadee. Rich
What is the difference between equalized trucks and sprung trucks?
An equalized truck is truck designed to allow flexing or moving of the sideframes to keep all wheels on the rails all the time and apply equal weight on all wheels.
By definition, sprung trucks like your Kadee freight car are equalized. Most of my freight cars have Kadee trucks, refitted with Intermountain wheelsets.
Years ago in this hobby, some trucks were made with sideframes screwed to a bolster such that the sideframes could pivot on the bolster at the attachment screw, this provided equalization without providing any "spring" action.
Most sprung trucks like Kadee, have always been sprung too stiff to actually compress from the weight of the car. So the springs are actually just dampeners for the equalization movement.
In the 40's, 50's and into the 60's, most "better" HO freight trucks were sprung or equalized as were many passenger trucks like those made by Central Valley.
Thanks, Sheldon.
I just read through an old thread from 2007 with mixed reviews for Kadee metal spring trucks.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/92825.aspx
Just google or search on Ebay for "Central Valley Passenger Trucks" and you will see what sprung equalized passenger trucks look like. These were state of the art when I got in the hobby.
They consist of lots separate parts, little springs, and move in a way similar to, but not exactly, like their prototypes.
By the way, you did not need to get a whole new truck from Kadee - they sell the replacement springs and they are not that hard to re-assmemble. I learned to do it at age 10, all my Varney, Athearn and other early 60's rolling stock had sprung trucks.
I tried these "new" rigid plastic trucks for a while, but as I got more interested in longer trains, I found all those old lessons about railroad physics were true.
In my case, the Kadee metal trucks, refitted with Intermountain wheelsets, roll more freely, track better, and add weight down low where it does the most good, often elminating the need for other extra weight.
richhotrainI just read through an old thread from 2007
I only recoginized 4 posters, 3 of which are still active in the forum. I think I have some Walthers? plastic sprung trucks and I was always skeptical that the springs could overcome the friction of the plastic.
The Central Valley trucks seem a little more plausibe, but we often say physics doesn't scale down to HO. Until I get my layout up and running, label me as spring agnostic.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
ATLANTIC CENTRAL By the way, you did not need to get a whole new truck from Kadee - they sell the replacement springs and they are not that hard to re-assemble.
By the way, you did not need to get a whole new truck from Kadee - they sell the replacement springs and they are not that hard to re-assemble.
richhotrain Thanks, Sheldon. I just read through an old thread from 2007 with mixed reviews for Kadee metal spring trucks. http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/92825.aspx Rich
Well, that was pretty funny to read for someone who has been running sprung trucks with no problems for 53 years on a fleet of freight cars that is now nearly 1000 in number, and who pulls 50 and even 100 car trains of them.
Pruitt summed it up pretty well, there are/were some junky ones over the years and you have to know what you are doing.......
But actually my testing shows the average freight car does weigh enough to flex a kadee or similar quality sprung truck and keep all the wheels on the rails all the time.
But I assure you, I'm not going much deeper in this discussion because it is a road I have been down too many times. A good search of this topic will find pages and pages I have written on the subject.
BigDaddy richhotrain I just read through an old thread from 2007 I only recoginized 4 posters, 3 of which are still active in the forum. I think I have some Walthers? plastic sprung trucks and I was always skeptical that the springs could overcome the friction of the plastic.
richhotrain I just read through an old thread from 2007
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Thanks, Sheldon. I just read through an old thread from 2007 with mixed reviews for Kadee metal spring trucks. http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/92825.aspx Rich Well, that was pretty funny to read for someone who has been running sprung trucks with no problems for 53 years on a fleet of freight cars that is now nearly 1000 in number, and who pulls 50 and even 100 car trains of them. Pruitt summed it up pretty well, there are/were some junky ones over the years and you have to know what you are doing....... But actually my testing shows the average freight car does weigh enough to flex a kadee or similar quality sprung truck and keep all the wheels on the rails all the time. But I assure you, I'm not going much deeper in this discussion because it is a road I have been down too many times. A good search of this topic will find pages and pages I have written on the subject. Sheldon
Anyhow, I had to chuckle to realize that I actually own some freight cars with metal sprung trucks. As I say, who knew?
BigDaddy richhotrain I just read through an old thread from 2007 I only recoginized 4 posters, 3 of which are still active in the forum. I think I have some Walthers? plastic sprung trucks and I was always skeptical that the springs could overcome the friction of the plastic. The Central Valley trucks seem a little more plausibe, but we often say physics doesn't scale down to HO. Until I get my layout up and running, label me as spring agnostic.
The springs don't need to overcome the friction of the plastic. And the plastic is slippery delrin like rigid frame trucks in most cases of sprung plastic trucks, like Walthers.
The springs only compress a very little amount, not from the weight of the car, but from the flexing of the sideframes.
Most better plastic sprung trucks, like the ones Walthers made for decades, Lindberg (sold under the EB name,and I think still around with a new ower) and others work fine.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LMH-EB-Freight-Trucks-T327BCR-TIMKEN-Fully-SPRUNG-Equalized-METAL-Wheels-0-6-oz-/312561885714
The "flopper" they are off the track, the better they are working on the track, like Rich found out with his Kadee car.
Not sure how much you can see, but here is a set of Kadees on one of my piggy fleet.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Thanks, Sheldon. I just read through an old thread from 2007 with mixed reviews for Kadee metal spring trucks. http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/92825.aspx Rich Well, that was pretty funny to read for someone who has been running sprung trucks with no problems for 53 years on a fleet of freight cars that is now nearly 1000 in number, and who pulls 50 and even 100 car trains of them. Pruitt summed it up pretty well, there are/were some junky ones over the years and you have to know what you are doing....... But actually my testing shows the average freight car does weigh enough to flex a kadee or similar quality sprung truck and keep all the wheels on the rails all the time. But I assure you, I'm not going much deeper in this discussion because it is a road I have been down too many times. A good search of this topic will find pages and pages I have written on the subject. Sheldon In my case, the Kadee sprung trucks are on Kadee cars, and the cars are nicely weighted, so chances are that the springs do have some positive effect. Anyhow, I had to chuckle to realize that I actually own some freight cars with metal sprung trucks. As I say, who knew? Rich
In my case, the Kadee sprung trucks are on Kadee cars, and the cars are nicely weighted, so chances are that the springs do have some positive effect.
Well Rich, in an ideal world, all your freight cars should have a similar weight for best performance........
And, part of that nice weight of those Kadee cars, is those metal trucks.......
You had no idea when you got into this hobby that you were going to earn a PhD in mechanical engineering did you?
Kadee offers a wide selection of sprung trucks. Mine are #562.
https://www.kadee.com/documents/truck_and_wheel.pdf
richhotrain Kadee offers a wide selection of sprung trucks. Mine are #562. https://www.kadee.com/documents/truck_and_wheel.pdf Rich
And now they also offer trucks that are equalized but not sprung, and are made of "high gravity compound", a heavy plastic.
They are described on that same flyer.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well Rich, in an ideal world, all your freight cars should have a similar weight for best performance........ And, part of that nice weight of those Kadee cars, is those metal trucks....... You had no idea when you got into this hobby that you were going to earn a PhD in mechanical engineering did you? Sheldon
I guess it is never too late...
I must say, the Kadee covered hoppers are among my favorite freight cars. I also have a number of Kato covered hoppers. No idea what kind of trucks are on those Kato cars, so I better check.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Kadee offers a wide selection of sprung trucks. Mine are #562. https://www.kadee.com/documents/truck_and_wheel.pdf Rich And now they also offer trucks that are equalized but not sprung, and are made of "high gravity compound", a heavy plastic. They are described on that same flyer. Sheldon
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Kadee offers a wide selection of sprung trucks. Mine are #562. https://www.kadee.com/documents/truck_and_wheel.pdf Rich And now they also offer trucks that are equalized but not sprung, and are made of "high gravity compound", a heavy plastic. They are described on that same flyer. Sheldon The HGC trucks are actually what I have, #562, although a lot of the Kadee sprung trucks are actually metal. Rich
The HGC trucks are actually what I have, #562, although a lot of the Kadee sprung trucks are actually metal.
Yes, the ones with the actual springs are metal, the new HGC ones are not. But they flex to keep all the wheels on the rail because of their multi piece sideframe.
And yes they too will come apart in your hand if removed or flexed too far.
I use them too.
Lastspikemike There's a bit of a trick to holding these Kadee trucks together in one hand if they're not mounted to a car. There's a plastic retaining clip that comes installed on each of the trucks when packaged new. Handy to keep those clips in case you want to take the trucks off for any reason.
There's a bit of a trick to holding these Kadee trucks together in one hand if they're not mounted to a car. There's a plastic retaining clip that comes installed on each of the trucks when packaged new. Handy to keep those clips in case you want to take the trucks off for any reason.
Lastspikemike richhotrain Lastspikemike There's a bit of a trick to holding these Kadee trucks together in one hand if they're not mounted to a car. There's a plastic retaining clip that comes installed on each of the trucks when packaged new. Handy to keep those clips in case you want to take the trucks off for any reason. I bought the Kadee covered hoppers years ago, but I always save the boxes. I found these in the box. Are these the clips you are referring to? Rich Yes. If you pull the trucks off the car for any reason slip these back on and the truck won't fall apart in your hand. You could ask me how I found this out but you can probably guess.
richhotrain Lastspikemike There's a bit of a trick to holding these Kadee trucks together in one hand if they're not mounted to a car. There's a plastic retaining clip that comes installed on each of the trucks when packaged new. Handy to keep those clips in case you want to take the trucks off for any reason. I bought the Kadee covered hoppers years ago, but I always save the boxes. I found these in the box. Are these the clips you are referring to? Rich
I bought the Kadee covered hoppers years ago, but I always save the boxes. I found these in the box. Are these the clips you are referring to?
Yes. If you pull the trucks off the car for any reason slip these back on and the truck won't fall apart in your hand.
You could ask me how I found this out but you can probably guess.
richhotrainI bought the Kadee covered hoppers years ago, but I always save the boxes. I found these in the box. Are these the clips you are referring to?
This is only an issue with the self-centering HGC trucks.
A much better option is to simply drill and tap a short piece of plastic for 2-56 and screw the trucks to this piece. There is no way they can come apart like this.
ATLANTIC CENTRALTo make them equalized, it is complex, expensive, there are lots of styles, less standardized mouting on models, all making it not the best product market for them.
Yes I know. I talked to Sam about it at the National Train Show in Orlando. They coould have done ot 30 years ago, but no one will accept a generic "4 wheel passenger" truck now.
Living the dream.
LastspikemikeUntil you take the screws out. If I recall correctly the factory supplied clip stays in place until you start the mounting screw and then you pull out the clip and finish tightening the screw.
Never mind.
I guess the foolproof technique I have been using for years simply won't work. Just like the ways I control trains, how I wire terminal ends, how I build benchwork, how I clean my airbrush, and all my other flaws you have pointed out.
Thank you for correcting me.
Isn't it a miracle I have completed any models worthy of photographing and sharing?
SeeYou190 This is only an issue with the self-centering HGC trucks. A much better option is to simply drill and tap a short piece of plastic for 2-56 and screw the trucks to this piece. There is no way they can come apart like this.
When the screw and the center pin are on the freight car, the two piece truck bolster is trapped together.
The little piece of plastic clips on the screw, and acts just like the body bolster on the car.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL When the screw and the center pin are on the freight car, the two piece truck bolster is trapped together. The little piece of plastic clips on the screw, and acts just like the body bolster on the car. Sheldon
If I understand the term bolster correctly, I think mine are one piece, not two piece.
Also, on the #562 truck, it is referred to as a "self-centering" truck. What does this mean and how does it work?
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL When the screw and the center pin are on the freight car, the two piece truck bolster is trapped together. The little piece of plastic clips on the screw, and acts just like the body bolster on the car. Sheldon I guess that I am clueless on freight car trucks. Right now, I am trapped on my chair by my sleeping cat. LOL. When I can get up, I need to look more closely at the trucks on my Kadee covered hopper. If I understand the term bolster correctly, I think mine are one piece, not two piece. Also, on the #562 truck, it is referred to as a "self-centering" truck. What does this mean and how does it work? Rich
I guess that I am clueless on freight car trucks. Right now, I am trapped on my chair by my sleeping cat. LOL. When I can get up, I need to look more closely at the trucks on my Kadee covered hopper.
Unless someone else can, I will post pictures later. Working now.
richhotrain Can you explain this technique a bit more?
No, as Mike explained, it does not work, just like all my techniques I have developed over 40 years in this hobby.
I will let others who know more help out.
Lastspikemike They don't really work all that well to self center
Yup, Kadee is well known for making false claims about poorly engineered products that do not work well. Thank for pointing that out and setting us straight Mike. I was living in a fantasy world where Kadee makes quality products until now.