Lastspikemike I note that Atlas flex track only has gaps in the tie webs under one rail. The rail that's supposed to be the outside rail has no flexing gaps in the ties. Shinohara uses the same pattern. Peco and ME elect to put gaps under both rails. Also, comments elsewhere lead me to wonder if flex track is sometimes laid under tension by bending to the marked centreline and then nailing or gluing instead of bending to a point inside the marked centreline until the released curve fits the desired line and only then nailed or glued. Any thermal effects will be magnified in that situation. Ind in livable rooms the interior temperature would normally vary no more than about ten degrees (20F in America, which sounds like so much more heat). In our Canadian climate only summer weather makes a difference and our layouts are frequently in the basement anyway which tends to track below grade temperatures rather than air temperatures. We also have AC so our house may vary from 21-25C at most which is about 8F. If you get variations approaching 20 or 30F degrees I would expect some thermal stresses on the layout. A helix would be a special case. I note that Shinohara/Walthers flex track provides moulded in nail holes in the ends of the ties rather thank down the centreline of the ties. Maybe building a helix and nailing down only a well spaced number of the inside ends of the ties would protect against the thermal expansion effects described here. The flex gaps are all on that side of the track.
I note that Atlas flex track only has gaps in the tie webs under one rail. The rail that's supposed to be the outside rail has no flexing gaps in the ties. Shinohara uses the same pattern. Peco and ME elect to put gaps under both rails.
Also, comments elsewhere lead me to wonder if flex track is sometimes laid under tension by bending to the marked centreline and then nailing or gluing instead of bending to a point inside the marked centreline until the released curve fits the desired line and only then nailed or glued. Any thermal effects will be magnified in that situation.
Ind in livable rooms the interior temperature would normally vary no more than about ten degrees (20F in America, which sounds like so much more heat). In our Canadian climate only summer weather makes a difference and our layouts are frequently in the basement anyway which tends to track below grade temperatures rather than air temperatures. We also have AC so our house may vary from 21-25C at most which is about 8F.
If you get variations approaching 20 or 30F degrees I would expect some thermal stresses on the layout.
A helix would be a special case. I note that Shinohara/Walthers flex track provides moulded in nail holes in the ends of the ties rather thank down the centreline of the ties. Maybe building a helix and nailing down only a well spaced number of the inside ends of the ties would protect against the thermal expansion effects described here. The flex gaps are all on that side of the track.
I think it depends, but its obvioulsy the hard steel rail that doesn't give, causing the weakest link of the track laying process to be exposed as that spot absorbs the force.
In my case, the track shifted laterally off of the roadbed. I think because I simply did not adhere the track well enough to the roadbed. Poor caulking job there. If I would have sufficiently secured the track, it may have found the next weakest spot and bent upwards like others and sheard off the spike heads.
- Douglas
Time for an off-topic sideline:
DoughlessYeah, Wild Bill was quite the teacher and test giver. I also had the (un)fortune of having him for home room for 3 years. He was actually a good guy.
I enjoyed him. Our class was a little special to him because his daughter was in our class.
In the late 60s, the education department at Kearney State College came up with a new "hands-on" physics curriculum that GISH tried. By Christmas, Smith saw that we weren't learning anything. After the Christmas break, he taught us the entire year's regular physics class in four months.
Ok, back to the topic at hand!
York1 John
Lastspikemike RR_Mel I agree with Sheldon. I too was wondering about that. I’ve been using Atlas Flex Track since it was first released and installed it both ways on three layouts. Can’t say I’ve ever seen or been instructed which side is correct. On tight curves the ties are closer one way and wider on the opposite side. I always tried to keep it the same way. Anyone know for sure what Atlas says?Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps. I do, or more correctly what they wrote in their 2003 catalogue on page 6. "you must keep in mind that the sliding rail must always be on the inside of the curve" This instruction appears right next to a nicely curved piece of flex track... curved into a lovely smooth S bend with no tangent transition!
RR_Mel I agree with Sheldon. I too was wondering about that. I’ve been using Atlas Flex Track since it was first released and installed it both ways on three layouts. Can’t say I’ve ever seen or been instructed which side is correct. On tight curves the ties are closer one way and wider on the opposite side. I always tried to keep it the same way. Anyone know for sure what Atlas says?Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
I agree with Sheldon.
I too was wondering about that. I’ve been using Atlas Flex Track since it was first released and installed it both ways on three layouts. Can’t say I’ve ever seen or been instructed which side is correct. On tight curves the ties are closer one way and wider on the opposite side. I always tried to keep it the same way. Anyone know for sure what Atlas says?Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
I do, or more correctly what they wrote in their 2003 catalogue on page 6.
"you must keep in mind that the sliding rail must always be on the inside of the curve"
This instruction appears right next to a nicely curved piece of flex track...
curved into a lovely smooth S bend with no tangent transition!
Before Sheldon jumps in, I think Atlas is being conservative when they say "must". I prefer to always have the sliding rail on the inside because it creates overlap at the end(s) that snips off easier.
Also, if you curve it into a 20 something radius, or heaven forbid something sharper, the gapped side will splay the ties far apart if its on the outside. The spacing will look way out of scale.
But for broad radius curves, these issues don't really emerge and it probably doesn't matter.
OK, fine. But again, at 36" radius, or even 30" radius, I have never had an issue.
It has been about 4 decades since I even considered bending a piece of flex track any sharper than that.
Somewhere I have few Atlas catalogs, likely older than 2003, which was 17 years ago. It would be interesting to see what information other publications from Atlas offer on the subject.
It fact, I have the Atlas custom line layout book, I think from 1957 - I will check it out....
Sheldon
I don’t have clue as to how I positioned the original track on my layout. I did look at the replacement track and the two pieces I can see through inspection doors are to the Atlas spec, but that occurred a few years earlier than 2003. Just thinking about laying track I think I would have the sliding rail to the inside because it’s easier to fit that way.I would say that in my case it didn’t make any difference because the spikes broke on both rails. I can’t see any difference in the spikes on either side of either rail. At 83 I seriously doubt if I will ever lay any more track of any kind on any layout but if I had known back then I would have made sure it was done to spec.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
RR_MelI don’t have clue as to how I positioned the original track on my layout.
I don't either. I laid a lot of flex track, and I didn't pay attention to which rail was which. I generally moved things around to fit, cut rails to fit, etc.
If I build a new layout in my 70s, maybe I will do it the right way.
LastspikemikeLooking closely I also notice that both Shinohara and Walthers actually leave two spike heads missing every so often in both ends of a tie allowing you to actually spike down the flex track right onto the rail.
Correct:
Track_83Shin by Edmund, on Flickr
I suggest using a pin vice to clean out the spike hole (depending on your preference of spike) as the tie end will snap off if a spike is used that fits too snugly.
Regards, Ed
York1 RR_Mel I don’t have clue as to how I positioned the original track on my layout. I don't either. I laid a lot of flex track, and I didn't pay attention to which rail was which. I generally moved things around to fit, cut rails to fit, etc. If I build a new layout in my 70s, maybe I will do it the right way.
RR_Mel I don’t have clue as to how I positioned the original track on my layout.
I did it that way too. I'm one of those guys who takes up used rail and fiddles with it or replaces it when I slightly alter the track plan.
Like many things, acquired knowledge comes from discovered mistakes.
I've soldered a sliding inside rail to a fixed inside rail because I didn't check the alignment before hand.
Trying to bend the now one piece of track that has half of the inside rail sliding and the other fixed presents interesting challenges.
LastspikemikeSorry to bring this up but achieving the age 83 does mean you likely have more than enough time to build another layout
How in the hell can you post something like that?I've been around here longer than you, I've have pm'd with Mel, but I don't know him well enough to say that, even if we had been drinking adult beverages all night
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
The toughest task I’ll accomplish this month is cleaning up my workbench. We have company coming Saturday so tomorrow will be a clean the workbench day. I know my workbench is there somewhere I just haven’t seen it for awhile. Laying track is surely tougher than cleaning my workbench, never happen!Seriously just getting my layout back operational by mid December is my goal. Growing old is the pits guys!!!I tore up my control panel earlier this year to finish the installation of my Arduino signal system and do to health problems its still screwed up. I figure I have about 80 hours of work on it before its back operational. I can only do a couple of hours at a time then its rest time. Arthritis pain dings me quickly. At least it has finally cooled off here so I won’t have to work in higher temps in the garage. This summer has been a real cooker, daily temps in the garage has been over 85° for months today it was 75°.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Lastspikemike Nobody learns anything except from mistakes. Being wrong is the only way to learn. Being proved wrong is the only way we advance our knowledge.
Nobody learns anything except from mistakes.
Being wrong is the only way to learn.
Being proved wrong is the only way we advance our knowledge.
Alton Junction
BigDaddy Lastspikemike Sorry to bring this up but achieving the age 83 does mean you likely have more than enough time to build another layout How in the hell can you post something like that? I've been around here longer than you, I've have pm'd with Mel, but I don't know him well enough to say that, even if we had been drinking adult beverages all night.
Lastspikemike Sorry to bring this up but achieving the age 83 does mean you likely have more than enough time to build another layout
How in the hell can you post something like that? I've been around here longer than you, I've have pm'd with Mel, but I don't know him well enough to say that, even if we had been drinking adult beverages all night.
What Mel actually said was that he doubts that he will ever build another layout, not that he would not live long enough to build another layout.
Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRALIn 40 or 45 years of using Atlas flex track, I have never given any consideration to the tie gaps being on the inside or the outside of the curve, with no ill effects....
Same here, Sheldon, never knew there was a right way and wrong way to use it, as both ways seemed to work just fine.
Wayne
doctorwayne ATLANTIC CENTRAL In 40 or 45 years of using Atlas flex track, I have never given any consideration to the tie gaps being on the inside or the outside of the curve, with no ill effects.... Same here, Sheldon, never knew there was a right way and wrong way to use it, as both ways seemed to work just fine. Wayne
ATLANTIC CENTRAL In 40 or 45 years of using Atlas flex track, I have never given any consideration to the tie gaps being on the inside or the outside of the curve, with no ill effects....
I guess to some modelers they like to keep the tie spacing closer rather than farther. With the solid rail on the inside the ties splay farther apart on the outer rail:
Atlas_wide by Edmund, on Flickr
By keeping the solid rail to the outside the ties "close-up" toward the inside of the curve:
Atlas_narrow by Edmund, on Flickr
This must matter to some modelers.
I use Shinohara so it is a moot point to me. I do tend to scrunch the ties together which is possible with the old Shinohara both on curves and tangent.
Good Luck, Ed
gmpullman doctorwayne ATLANTIC CENTRAL In 40 or 45 years of using Atlas flex track, I have never given any consideration to the tie gaps being on the inside or the outside of the curve, with no ill effects.... Same here, Sheldon, never knew there was a right way and wrong way to use it, as both ways seemed to work just fine. Wayne I guess to some modelers they like to keep the tie spacing closer rather than farther. With the solid rail on the inside the ties splay farther apart on the outer rail: Atlas_wide by Edmund, on Flickr By keeping the solid rail to the outside the ties "close-up" toward the inside of the curve: Atlas_narrow by Edmund, on Flickr This must matter to some modelers. I use Shinohara so it is a moot point to me. I do tend to scrunch the ties together which is possible with the old Shinohara both on curves and tangent. Good Luck, Ed
To be clear, I don't think the issue was raised because it matters to some modelers on the forum. It was raised as a way to speculate why Atlas themselves suggest to put the sliding rail to the inside. Maybe they think it matters to enough modelers. Maybe the designers thought it mattered back in the 60s. Maybe there is another reason.
Maybe they don't even suggest it, but that's where we are presently in the conversation.
Having said that, the bottom pic does look better. For those who care about stuff like spike head detail, rail profiles, and tie color (I care about none of that BTW), maybe Atlas thinks that spacing matters to modelers who care about that stuff too.
Well, I found a copy of the 2002 Atlas catalog, it contains no such instruction, warning or recommendation.
I have a copy of the 2003 Atlas Track Catalog and, indeed, it does state on page 6 that the sliding rail must always be on the inside of the curve. But, what I find interesting is an accompanying photo of an S-curve formed by bending flex track.
If one end of the S-curve has the sliding rail on the inside of the curve, won't the fixed rail be on the outside of the other half of the S-curve? It would unless two sections of flex track are joined together to form the S-curve with the rail joiner connecting the two sections half way through the S-curve. That way, the sliding rail can always be on the inside of the portion of the S-curve that it is forming.
no reason you can't cut some of the tie webs on the other opposite side
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
richhotrain I have a copy of the 2003 Atlas Track Catalog and, indeed, it does state on page 6 that the sliding rail must always be on the inside of the curve. But, what I find interesting is an accompanying photo of an S-curve formed by bending flex track. If one end of the S-curve has the sliding rail on the inside of the curve, won't the fixed rail be on the outside of the other half of the S-curve? It would unless two sections of flex track are joined together to form the S-curve with the rail joiner connecting the two sections half way through the S-curve. That way, the sliding rail can always be on the inside of the portion of the S-curve that it is forming. Rich
Not sure why Atlas felt the need to offer this instruction after four decades of plastic flex track production........
gregc no reason you can't cut some of the tie webs on the other opposite side
Actually the tie sections are not continious for the 36", there are 4 separate sections aprox 9" long, so there are some "gaps" on the other rail.
I think it would be nice if Atlas sold the tie sections separately.
And again, I have been using this stuff since the 70's, never paid any attention, never had an issue.
I am one of those poeple who remove enough ties at the joints to not have issues with the sliding rail, then reinstall them. And, as noted earlier, I'm not generally making sharp curves.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain I have a copy of the 2003 Atlas Track Catalog and, indeed, it does state on page 6 that the sliding rail must always be on the inside of the curve. But, what I find interesting is an accompanying photo of an S-curve formed by bending flex track. If one end of the S-curve has the sliding rail on the inside of the curve, won't the fixed rail be on the outside of the other half of the S-curve? It would unless two sections of flex track are joined together to form the S-curve with the rail joiner connecting the two sections half way through the S-curve. That way, the sliding rail can always be on the inside of the portion of the S-curve that it is forming. Rich Not sure why Atlas felt the need to offer this instruction after four decades of plastic flex track production........ Sheldon
Good question, I don't have a copy.
But I could find no such info on their web site now........17 years later........
Anyone out there have a 2004 Atlas Track Catalog?
Yeah, I thought the same thing when I read Mike's post. Its a brochure. Its imperfect. I don't agree with use of the word "must", but its imperfect.
I guess I can see why they might recommend putting it to the inside. Designers always tend to think through an intended use and recommend best practices.
Consumers are usually astute enough to heed them when it matters and ignore them when they don't.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain I have a copy of the 2003 Atlas Track Catalog and, indeed, it does state on page 6 that the sliding rail must always be on the inside of the curve. But, what I find interesting is an accompanying photo of an S-curve formed by bending flex track. If one end of the S-curve has the sliding rail on the inside of the curve, won't the fixed rail be on the outside of the other half of the S-curve? It would unless two sections of flex track are joined together to form the S-curve with the rail joiner connecting the two sections half way through the S-curve. That way, the sliding rail can always be on the inside of the portion of the S-curve that it is forming. Rich Not sure why Atlas felt the need to offer this instruction after four decades of plastic flex track production........ Sheldon I wonder what Atlas had to say, if anything, in the 2004 edition. Rich
I wonder what Atlas had to say, if anything, in the 2004 edition.
They probably said that their previous stupid picture of a S curved track made no sense relative to their instructions, so they just dropped the whole thing since it doesn't matter much anyway.
Doughless They probably said that their previous stupid picture of a S curved track made no sense relative to their instructions, so they just dropped the whole thing since it doesn't matter much anyway.
cedarwoodron After laying track I inspected all rail joiners to ensure they were properly fitted. Should I solder those rail joints as well for electrical connectivity? Cedarwoodron
After laying track I inspected all rail joiners to ensure they were properly fitted. Should I solder those rail joints as well for electrical connectivity?
Cedarwoodron
Well we pretty much blew up Cedarwoodrons topic. That sorta happens when I respond, sorry Cedarwoodron! Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
richhotrainIf one end of the S-curve has the sliding rail on the inside of the curve, won't the fixed rail be on the outside of the other half of the S-curve?
I had never thought of this, but it makes sense.
I looked at my N Scale track, and I can honestly say I cannot see much difference at any of the curves.
I would bet that with HO, the spacing might be more visible. This is an interesting issue I had never considered.
The initial discussion about the positioning of the sliding rail and subsequest tie spacing issue was brought up in the context of broad radii curves making the issue less noticeable. I believe Sheldon mentioned it way back.
Bend Atlas HO to 20 inch radius and the issue will be very apparent.
Of course, if I had a need to bend it to anything sharper than 25 inch radius I would just use sectional track since its already prebent to a consistent radius and the ties are uniform (find a way to use the 24, 22, 18, or 15).
Just solder a bunch together (uh, with joiners) and there you have a nicely made curve. JMO.
Just to return to Cedarwoodron's original topic, to solder or not to solder.
1. Our wood benchwork shrinks when dry and swells when wet. This motion far exceeds any thermal expansion of rails and tie strips. I leave a reasonable number of rail joiners unsoldered, say one every 8 feet or so.
2. When curving flextrack around the tighter curves, especially the 18 inch curves, I like to solder both rail joiners before bending the track into place. This prevents a kink where the two pieces of flextrack join.
3. You cannot depend upon rail joiners passing electricity unless you solder them. Each time you mate and demate the rail joint some of the springiness goes out of the rail joiner. The inside of the joiners is uncleanable and crud and corrosion build up inside them over the years until one day they stop conducting. You cannot use the rail and rail joiners to carry power around the layout. You want to run a power bus under the layout and solder feeders from the bus to the piece of flex track for every OTHER piece of flextrack. This way the flextracks with no feeder have a powered flextrack on each side. Should one joiner open up, that piece of flextrack will simply draw power from the other end. Make the power bus from heavy wire, I use #14 AWG solid house wire. Electrically it is overkill, but I have some and it is mechanically rugged and I don't worry about small nicks from stripping the insulation to solder on feeders weakening it. Stagger the pair of feeder wires by a few inches so you don't have to worry about the bare solder joints touching and shorting out.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com