On my last layout,I soldered all joints for conductivity and elimination of kinks. Humidity eventually caused curved track to straighten itself between hold-down points, but never had a problem with track buckling.
Now, before laying curved track, I run the rails through a Fast Tracks roller to give them a permanent bend. You can do that with Peco since both rails are removable. I cut the rails in the middle of the section of track and solder together what was previously the ends, and place joiners on the "new" ends and join without soldering. Once the track is fastened down, A drop of CA in the center of the section anchors the rail to the ties and the rails are free to move either way from that point on. A jumper wire is soldered to the rails at the unsoldered joint.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
As for soldering rail Joints, I have always soldered the ones that are not gapped to eliminate shorts and do not solder the rails to turnouts incase they need to be replaced.
As for expansion and contraction, the bench work is the larger mass and it will expand and contract with temperature and humidity and that is what effects the track way more than the track expanding and contracting.
I have never had any issues with track expanding or contracting.
I use Atlas Code 55 N-Scale track and turnouts on my layout with a triple track straight that is comprised of flex making it 27 ft. long and all joints are soldered with no issues.
I do control the layout room so that the temperature and humidity is fairly constant with no big swings up or down and all bench work wood was dry prior to laying any track.
Another thing I did is glue the cork roadbed on foam insulation with latex contact cement and track on the cork. Hope this helps.
There is no expansion with closed cell foam insulation.
ROBERT PETRICK I hesitate to jump in, but for those needing help Peco provides instructions. This is Peco Streamline N Scale Code 55, but I assume HO is similar . . . Carry on. Robert
I hesitate to jump in, but for those needing help Peco provides instructions. This is Peco Streamline N Scale Code 55, but I assume HO is similar . . .
Carry on.
Robert
It's Halloween. Kids mobbing the darkend streets have kept me in the basement on a Saturday night. And COZI TV has forgone their usual reruns of Columbo to run a Munsters marathon.
A greater than desired level of boredom has motivated me to vigorously forge ahead down the rabbit hole of model railroading minutia.
To answer the assumption, Peco HO code 83 has the same number of gaps on either side of the rail and no arrows. I see no instructions.
I feel that I am safe to install either rail to the inside, or either rail to the outside.
And yes, I will do both since I'm making an S curve out of it shortly.
- Douglas
LINK to SNSR Blog
Agree Sheldon. I'm in the thread because I'm bored. Not because the issue is all that complicated.
Agree also, its probably just instinctive to put the sliding rail to the inside.
Well, this has been very interesting. I don't ever recall this topic being discussed on here or with any of my other modeler friends in the whole 50 plus years I have been in the hobby.
I worked in hobby shops, and clearly that info in the Atlas catalog did not appear in all the catalogs and was never highly promoted by Atlas.
Maybe I just instinctively put the sliding rail inside when it mattered without giving it much thought.
As I said earlier, I have seldom used flex track for small radius curves, so the tie spacing issue is not an issue. This got me curious enough to play with a piece of Atlas flex, and at the radius I use, any difference in the tie spacing is not noticable.
When I built my second layout, I understood that I needed and wanted 36" curves. I have never used a mainline radius less than that since. That was 1973. All my curves have easements, all my curves less than 45 degree direction change are eliptical with a minimum radius apex of 36", which is what the prototype does. Small changes in direction are often really two easements back to back with no fixed radius
I understand the long list of reasons that many people have for using sharper curves. For me it simply is not an option as long as I have the space.
My new layout space is 1500 sq ft, I would rather build a less complex layout, with fewer "features" and be able have large curves and better looking scenery, than see how much I can "pack in".
I think my new layout plan is a good example of large but relatively simple.
Hope to get started soon.
To that end I am off now to help my Daughter move, which will remove considerable "stuff" from my layout space. And to work on some home improvement projects I need to finish up to begin layout construction.
Sheldon
Lastspikemike I agree. The trouble starts with flex track as you approach 24" radius. Switching to sectional track at that point is the way to go. My new layout will use flex track to ease tangents into the 24" radius sectional track. Anywhere I can fit broader curves will use flex track bent to the desired radius before securing to the layout. No stressed joints.
I agree. The trouble starts with flex track as you approach 24" radius. Switching to sectional track at that point is the way to go.
My new layout will use flex track to ease tangents into the 24" radius sectional track. Anywhere I can fit broader curves will use flex track bent to the desired radius before securing to the layout. No stressed joints.
Easements from tangent to curve is the way to go, and can only be done with flex track. Attaching the flex to sectional is not a problem either, and I've done that.
There are many ways to do things, most are based on comfort, preference, and skill level. I think in the end, prebending is more trouble than its worth.
Its tough to get a consistent curve, can waffle by a few degrees throughout the bend because you have to work an overbend throughout the piece of track. But that may not matter either. The advantage of the springy Atlas is that it forms a consistent bend by simply securing one end.
Once the track is secured with caulk or nails, the lateral stress is removed. And then it becomes even more unbudgeable with ballast and glue.
Track like Peco that holds its bend, has no lateral force at rest anyway.
I've prebent Atlas, its not wihtout its purpose, but that's where I had to fit something like a 17 inch long varying radius curve in between two turnouts. Can't really do the one end secured method. But for a full three foot section, I think you'll find it not worth the trouble.
Atlas_1996 by Edmund, on Flickr
Cheers, Ed
I haven’t seen this mentioned, I solder my feeders to the bottom of the rails in the gaps between the ties. That way the wire is less likely to be seen or at least easier to hide. I use Atlas code 83 Flex Track and use Walthers 948-841 Code 83 Nickel Silver Rail Joiners. They fit the Atlas rails very tight and should work well without soldering, and they are low profile and definitely harder to see. Much better than the others available. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Just to return to Cedarwoodron's original topic, to solder or not to solder.
1. Our wood benchwork shrinks when dry and swells when wet. This motion far exceeds any thermal expansion of rails and tie strips. I leave a reasonable number of rail joiners unsoldered, say one every 8 feet or so.
2. When curving flextrack around the tighter curves, especially the 18 inch curves, I like to solder both rail joiners before bending the track into place. This prevents a kink where the two pieces of flextrack join.
3. You cannot depend upon rail joiners passing electricity unless you solder them. Each time you mate and demate the rail joint some of the springiness goes out of the rail joiner. The inside of the joiners is uncleanable and crud and corrosion build up inside them over the years until one day they stop conducting. You cannot use the rail and rail joiners to carry power around the layout. You want to run a power bus under the layout and solder feeders from the bus to the piece of flex track for every OTHER piece of flextrack. This way the flextracks with no feeder have a powered flextrack on each side. Should one joiner open up, that piece of flextrack will simply draw power from the other end. Make the power bus from heavy wire, I use #14 AWG solid house wire. Electrically it is overkill, but I have some and it is mechanically rugged and I don't worry about small nicks from stripping the insulation to solder on feeders weakening it. Stagger the pair of feeder wires by a few inches so you don't have to worry about the bare solder joints touching and shorting out.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
The initial discussion about the positioning of the sliding rail and subsequest tie spacing issue was brought up in the context of broad radii curves making the issue less noticeable. I believe Sheldon mentioned it way back.
Bend Atlas HO to 20 inch radius and the issue will be very apparent.
Of course, if I had a need to bend it to anything sharper than 25 inch radius I would just use sectional track since its already prebent to a consistent radius and the ties are uniform (find a way to use the 24, 22, 18, or 15).
Just solder a bunch together (uh, with joiners) and there you have a nicely made curve. JMO.
richhotrainIf one end of the S-curve has the sliding rail on the inside of the curve, won't the fixed rail be on the outside of the other half of the S-curve?
I had never thought of this, but it makes sense.
I looked at my N Scale track, and I can honestly say I cannot see much difference at any of the curves.
I would bet that with HO, the spacing might be more visible. This is an interesting issue I had never considered.
York1 John
cedarwoodron After laying track I inspected all rail joiners to ensure they were properly fitted. Should I solder those rail joints as well for electrical connectivity? Cedarwoodron
After laying track I inspected all rail joiners to ensure they were properly fitted. Should I solder those rail joints as well for electrical connectivity?
Cedarwoodron
Well we pretty much blew up Cedarwoodrons topic. That sorta happens when I respond, sorry Cedarwoodron! Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Doughless They probably said that their previous stupid picture of a S curved track made no sense relative to their instructions, so they just dropped the whole thing since it doesn't matter much anyway.
They probably said that their previous stupid picture of a S curved track made no sense relative to their instructions, so they just dropped the whole thing since it doesn't matter much anyway.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain I have a copy of the 2003 Atlas Track Catalog and, indeed, it does state on page 6 that the sliding rail must always be on the inside of the curve. But, what I find interesting is an accompanying photo of an S-curve formed by bending flex track. If one end of the S-curve has the sliding rail on the inside of the curve, won't the fixed rail be on the outside of the other half of the S-curve? It would unless two sections of flex track are joined together to form the S-curve with the rail joiner connecting the two sections half way through the S-curve. That way, the sliding rail can always be on the inside of the portion of the S-curve that it is forming. Rich Not sure why Atlas felt the need to offer this instruction after four decades of plastic flex track production........ Sheldon I wonder what Atlas had to say, if anything, in the 2004 edition. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain I have a copy of the 2003 Atlas Track Catalog and, indeed, it does state on page 6 that the sliding rail must always be on the inside of the curve. But, what I find interesting is an accompanying photo of an S-curve formed by bending flex track. If one end of the S-curve has the sliding rail on the inside of the curve, won't the fixed rail be on the outside of the other half of the S-curve? It would unless two sections of flex track are joined together to form the S-curve with the rail joiner connecting the two sections half way through the S-curve. That way, the sliding rail can always be on the inside of the portion of the S-curve that it is forming. Rich Not sure why Atlas felt the need to offer this instruction after four decades of plastic flex track production........ Sheldon
richhotrain I have a copy of the 2003 Atlas Track Catalog and, indeed, it does state on page 6 that the sliding rail must always be on the inside of the curve. But, what I find interesting is an accompanying photo of an S-curve formed by bending flex track. If one end of the S-curve has the sliding rail on the inside of the curve, won't the fixed rail be on the outside of the other half of the S-curve? It would unless two sections of flex track are joined together to form the S-curve with the rail joiner connecting the two sections half way through the S-curve. That way, the sliding rail can always be on the inside of the portion of the S-curve that it is forming. Rich
I have a copy of the 2003 Atlas Track Catalog and, indeed, it does state on page 6 that the sliding rail must always be on the inside of the curve. But, what I find interesting is an accompanying photo of an S-curve formed by bending flex track.
If one end of the S-curve has the sliding rail on the inside of the curve, won't the fixed rail be on the outside of the other half of the S-curve? It would unless two sections of flex track are joined together to form the S-curve with the rail joiner connecting the two sections half way through the S-curve. That way, the sliding rail can always be on the inside of the portion of the S-curve that it is forming.
Not sure why Atlas felt the need to offer this instruction after four decades of plastic flex track production........
I wonder what Atlas had to say, if anything, in the 2004 edition.
Yeah, I thought the same thing when I read Mike's post. Its a brochure. Its imperfect. I don't agree with use of the word "must", but its imperfect.
I guess I can see why they might recommend putting it to the inside. Designers always tend to think through an intended use and recommend best practices.
Consumers are usually astute enough to heed them when it matters and ignore them when they don't.
Anyone out there have a 2004 Atlas Track Catalog?
Good question, I don't have a copy.
But I could find no such info on their web site now........17 years later........
gregc no reason you can't cut some of the tie webs on the other opposite side
no reason you can't cut some of the tie webs on the other opposite side
Actually the tie sections are not continious for the 36", there are 4 separate sections aprox 9" long, so there are some "gaps" on the other rail.
I think it would be nice if Atlas sold the tie sections separately.
And again, I have been using this stuff since the 70's, never paid any attention, never had an issue.
I am one of those poeple who remove enough ties at the joints to not have issues with the sliding rail, then reinstall them. And, as noted earlier, I'm not generally making sharp curves.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Well, I found a copy of the 2002 Atlas catalog, it contains no such instruction, warning or recommendation.
gmpullman doctorwayne ATLANTIC CENTRAL In 40 or 45 years of using Atlas flex track, I have never given any consideration to the tie gaps being on the inside or the outside of the curve, with no ill effects.... Same here, Sheldon, never knew there was a right way and wrong way to use it, as both ways seemed to work just fine. Wayne I guess to some modelers they like to keep the tie spacing closer rather than farther. With the solid rail on the inside the ties splay farther apart on the outer rail: Atlas_wide by Edmund, on Flickr By keeping the solid rail to the outside the ties "close-up" toward the inside of the curve: Atlas_narrow by Edmund, on Flickr This must matter to some modelers. I use Shinohara so it is a moot point to me. I do tend to scrunch the ties together which is possible with the old Shinohara both on curves and tangent. Good Luck, Ed
doctorwayne ATLANTIC CENTRAL In 40 or 45 years of using Atlas flex track, I have never given any consideration to the tie gaps being on the inside or the outside of the curve, with no ill effects.... Same here, Sheldon, never knew there was a right way and wrong way to use it, as both ways seemed to work just fine. Wayne
ATLANTIC CENTRAL In 40 or 45 years of using Atlas flex track, I have never given any consideration to the tie gaps being on the inside or the outside of the curve, with no ill effects....
Same here, Sheldon, never knew there was a right way and wrong way to use it, as both ways seemed to work just fine.
Wayne
I guess to some modelers they like to keep the tie spacing closer rather than farther. With the solid rail on the inside the ties splay farther apart on the outer rail:
Atlas_wide by Edmund, on Flickr
By keeping the solid rail to the outside the ties "close-up" toward the inside of the curve:
Atlas_narrow by Edmund, on Flickr
This must matter to some modelers.
I use Shinohara so it is a moot point to me. I do tend to scrunch the ties together which is possible with the old Shinohara both on curves and tangent.
Good Luck, Ed
To be clear, I don't think the issue was raised because it matters to some modelers on the forum. It was raised as a way to speculate why Atlas themselves suggest to put the sliding rail to the inside. Maybe they think it matters to enough modelers. Maybe the designers thought it mattered back in the 60s. Maybe there is another reason.
Maybe they don't even suggest it, but that's where we are presently in the conversation.
Having said that, the bottom pic does look better. For those who care about stuff like spike head detail, rail profiles, and tie color (I care about none of that BTW), maybe Atlas thinks that spacing matters to modelers who care about that stuff too.
ATLANTIC CENTRALIn 40 or 45 years of using Atlas flex track, I have never given any consideration to the tie gaps being on the inside or the outside of the curve, with no ill effects....
BigDaddy Lastspikemike Sorry to bring this up but achieving the age 83 does mean you likely have more than enough time to build another layout How in the hell can you post something like that? I've been around here longer than you, I've have pm'd with Mel, but I don't know him well enough to say that, even if we had been drinking adult beverages all night.
Lastspikemike Sorry to bring this up but achieving the age 83 does mean you likely have more than enough time to build another layout
How in the hell can you post something like that? I've been around here longer than you, I've have pm'd with Mel, but I don't know him well enough to say that, even if we had been drinking adult beverages all night.
What Mel actually said was that he doubts that he will ever build another layout, not that he would not live long enough to build another layout.
Lastspikemike Nobody learns anything except from mistakes. Being wrong is the only way to learn. Being proved wrong is the only way we advance our knowledge.
Nobody learns anything except from mistakes.
Being wrong is the only way to learn.
Being proved wrong is the only way we advance our knowledge.