After laying track I inspected all rail joiners to ensure they were properly fitted. Should I solder those rail joints as well for electrical connectivity?
Cedarwoodron
cedarwoodronAfter laying track I inspected all rail joiners to ensure they were properly fitted. Should I solder those rail joints as well for electrical connectivity?
If you depend on long runs of rail without feeders, as in the old version of common-rail wiring, the soldering may bring down effective resistance across the joints, and more importantly assure good conductivity over time, where corrosion or dirt might affect the relatively constrained contact between joiner and rail.
You do not need a great deal of solder or fill the joint to get the advantage for conductivity. But be sure to use a good no-clean flux to ensure good contact.
As noted, soldering is not strictly needed if you made sure your joiners were well-aligned and tight as final-installed. I do believe, though, that soldering them in curves is wise in any event.
I for one believe in the liberal use of feeders, and soldering any joints leading to rail sections without a feeder.
Note instructions in other threads about 'best practices' to make insulating gaps, if you decide to have them.
Cedar,
My rule of thumb is that all track either has a feeder or is soldered to a piece of track that has a feeder attached. I dont solder everything to leave some expansion points in the track.
Most track works great when it is laid down but time and scenery glue and paint will degrade electrical connections to track that doesnt follow the aforementioned axiom. It is a bummer to have to go add feeders to dead sections later when you get things looking great with ballast and scenery in place (speaking from experience).
Opinions will vary,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Soldering isn't just going to improve electrical conductivity. At the very least, I'd recommend soldering any joint on a curve, or one connected to a turnout, for the sake of maintaining alignment, I solder almost every joint, save for a few on straight track that I leave for expansion and contraction.
Rob Spangler
cedarwoodron After laying track I inspected all rail joiners to ensure they were properly fitted. Should I solder those rail joints as well for electrical connectivity? Cedarwoodron
You will get as many answers here as you get replys; thats typical here.
I solder only the curves and leave the straight sections unsoldered so they can float a bit as insurance if there is any expansion/contraction. I don't expect it but who does? Generally it's most likely when there are swings in temperature and humidity.
I am putting feeders every other joint of 3' flex track. I just installed an 11 track staging yard and if I put feeders on every joint, I'd have a couple hundred feeders to install! That's nuts. I want to make progress.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Should is a matter of opinion and circumstance.
IMO, properly fitted joiners holding two tracks snuggly is fine for connectivity. The issues with this are;
Is every joint properly fitted?
Will expansion and contraction of the layout benchwork cause some joiners to become nonproperly fitting down the road?
Will ballasting create diluted glue in the tiny gaps between the base of the rail and the joiners? It doesn't take much.
Will you paint the rails, and therby want to paint the joiners?
There are probably other hazards.
I would say that while unsoldered joiners can work for a long time or even forever, there is greater risk that the connection might be compromised based upon other weaknesses in the layout or other tasks down the road.
I have also soldered joiners after they were compromised with glue and paint. The heat tends to allow the melted solder to replace the goo. So there is no real problem with just doing it as a problem arises down the road.
So its not really an emergency to solder now, but it might hard to figure out later what joint or joints mught be the culprit.
So I would recommend soldering them if you have the time.
Also, some like to not solder turnouts for various reasons. Notably because if a turnout fails, it might be harder to remove and replace it.
I have decided to set aside that concern and will solder every joint on my layout, keeping a few gaps to allow for expansion if the benchwork expands with humidity changes.
I failed to provide for gaps before, and the resulting buckling that can occur to the rails is pretty amazing when you see it.
- Douglas
i don't believe an unsoldered rail joiner is a reliable connector over time (years).
but unsoldered joiners and isolation gaps allow for expansion, both metal and wood.
a feeder can be soldered to every other joiner and that joiner soldered to both rails or ~3 ft sections of track that is soldered together
if a joiner can't be soldered, a wire can be soldered to both rails around it (back side out of sight and where is won't interfere with wheel flanges)
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I solder all rail joints to ensure good conductivity, and have never had a problem with expansion of track or changes in benchwork. The layout room is neither heated nor cooled, as it's well insulated, and a dehumidifier is in use year-round.
When necessary, I have moved or removed soldered-in turnouts easily....simply heat the area where the joiners are located, and when the solder liquifies, use a small screwdriver or the tip of an X-Acto knife to push the joiner clear of the joint - either onto the turnout's rails or onto those of the adjoining track.
Since my layout is DC, I do create gaps in the rails to allow isolation of locos and trains where necessary, but always fill the gaps with ABS plastic, secured with ca and shaped to match the profile of the rails.
I have about 300' of mainline, not counting the double track through seven of the on-layout towns, nor the industrial tracks or those in the five staging yards.
These two wires power the whole shebang...
I clean track, in the conventional sense of that task, only after ballasting track or adding scenic materials near the track. Otherwise, track cleaning is done with my shop vac, fitted with whatever attachment is most suitable for each area - that's usually only once a year, at most.
These methods were recently labelled "old school" (which they are), but they work just fine for my requirements.
Wayne
Keep in mind though that some may say they solder every joint and that they have never had a problem with expansion and contraction issues, that may not be "you". As Diry Harry said: "do you fee lucky"? Think of it as insurance to leave a enough joints unsoldered on straight track to allow for it if it does happen.
Like Wayne I'm a DC operator. I have been soldering all my rail joints within each electrical control section (commonly called blocks) for 50 years now.
Some blocks are 50-60 feet long.
Because all my block feeders on the mainline run thru inductive dectectors for the signal system, installing feeders every 3-6 feet like many people do with DCC would be very impractical.
My layouts have always been in climate controlled stable environments and expansion/contraction has never been an issue.
I say solder all or nearly all, and possibly make some allowance for expansion.
You can allow some expansion joints and still solder flexible jumpers around those rail joiners.
Shedlon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Like Wayne I'm a DC operator. I have been soldering all my rail joints within each electrical control section (commonly called blocks) for 50 years now. Some blocks are 50-60 feet long. Because all my block feeders on the mainline run thru inductive dectectors for the signal system, installing feeders every 3-6 feet like many people do with DCC would be very impractical. My layouts have always been in climate controlled stable environments and expansion/contraction has never been an issue. I say solder all or nearly all, and possibly make some allowance for expansion. You can allow some expansion joints and still solder flexible jumpers around those rail joiners. Shedlon
Let me add some points.
I run DCC for onboard sound purposes only, and I'm never concerned about electrical current petering out because of excessive length of track. While some may solder a feeder to every piece of track, I think that is conservative.
I do solder the turnouts. My biggest concern is turnout failure later, so I have a feeder to the tracks that leads to each leg of the turnout, but that feeder might be 10 feet away.
Because I build mainly switching layouts, there is always a turnout close by. That type of layout forces more feeders, so I can rarely get a long run of track without the need for a feeder for potential turnout failure reasons.
If I had a 30 foot run with no turnouts, I would probably just have a pair of feeders at each end of the run (and a small gap in the middle).
In an undehumidified basment in Indiana, there would be bigger differences in the humidity levels between summer and winter, when dry Canadian air would dip into the midwest. I did notice buckling along the 35 foot long un-gapped section one spring,but cutting a small 1/16th of an inch gap cured the issue. No need to go over board on the expansion gapping. Obviously there is a need for a feeder on each side of each gap, but how far away the feeder is from the gap is not a huge issue. Could be 20 feet, IMO.
I had a large temperature swing in my garage when we first moved to Bakersfield (1987) and that’s where I built my layout. We had never lived in a location that had large differences in temperature so like all my other layouts over the years I soldered all the joiners. That was a bad mistake. On the second year I lost 11 sections of flex track do to the large temperature swing.Looked a lot like this. (Bakersfield Earthquake 1952)
The track was Atlas code 100 Flex and one or both rails broke loose from the tie spikes.The track couldn’t take the 70°+ temperature swing (35° to 110° in the garage) from winter to summer. We had the garage insolated (R40) and no more problems but then I didn’t solder all the joiners when I replaced the track either. I should have known better and left room for expansion.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL Like Wayne I'm a DC operator. I have been soldering all my rail joints within each electrical control section (commonly called blocks) for 50 years now. Some blocks are 50-60 feet long. Because all my block feeders on the mainline run thru inductive dectectors for the signal system, installing feeders every 3-6 feet like many people do with DCC would be very impractical. My layouts have always been in climate controlled stable environments and expansion/contraction has never been an issue. I say solder all or nearly all, and possibly make some allowance for expansion. You can allow some expansion joints and still solder flexible jumpers around those rail joiners. Shedlon Let me add some points. I run DCC for onboard sound purposes only, and I'm never concerned about electrical current petering out because of excessive length of track. It simply never mattered. While some may solder a feeder to every piece of track, I think that is a bit conservative. I do solder the turnouts. My biggest concern is turnout failure later, so I have a feeder to the tracks that leads to each leg of the turnout, but that feeder might be 10 feet away. Because I build mainly switching layouts, there is always a turnout close by. So that type of layout forces more feeders. If I had a 30 foot run with no turnouts, I would probably just have a pair of feeders at each end of the run (and a small gap in the middle). In an undehumidified basment in Indiana, there would be bigger differences in the humidity levels between summer and winter, when dry Canadian air would dip into the midwest. I did notice buckling along the 35 foot long un-gapped section one spring,but cutting a small 1/16th of an inch gap cured the issue. No need to go over board on the expansion gapping. Obviously there is a need for a feeder on each side of each gap, but how far away the feeder is from the gap is not a huge issue. Could be 20 feet, IMO.
I run DCC for onboard sound purposes only, and I'm never concerned about electrical current petering out because of excessive length of track. It simply never mattered. While some may solder a feeder to every piece of track, I think that is a bit conservative.
Because I build mainly switching layouts, there is always a turnout close by. So that type of layout forces more feeders.
Great points, completely agreed.
I too feel the every 3-6 feet feeder thing is way overkill. I have been involved in the building of, or DCC conversion of a number of large layouts, 1500 sq ft and larger.
One layout I designed and helped build for a friend had two double track helices down to a staging level. The layout was DCC, and he installed feeder drops every 6 feet. Most of those drops never got connected to the buss. The rail joints were soldered. The layout had a double track mainline over 600 feet long. It ran flawlessly for over a dozen years with only about 6-8 feeders on each loop until he dismantled it to move.
Just one example.
As a DC operator, turnouts are mostly near block boundaries and on the mainline represent a kind of sub-block called an "x section", so they always have separate feeders nearby.
Sheldon
Lastspikemike Technically, the track movement due to temperature changes would be relative. To estimate this one uses the difference in the coefficient of expansion and some very small numbers are involved. It is probable that the thermal expansion or contraction of the plastic ties is greater than that of the nickel silver rail. There's more of it to start with. As they change length together the difference must be tiny. Unless your railroad is subjected to wide range of temperature change, as in temporary unheated storage or while moving house for example, I expect the differential expansion or contraction between the plastic ties and the rails would be insignificant. The whole layout responds to temperature, unlike the prototype. Rail distortion should be very rare either way: soldered or not, nailed down or glued.
Technically, the track movement due to temperature changes would be relative.
To estimate this one uses the difference in the coefficient of expansion and some very small numbers are involved.
It is probable that the thermal expansion or contraction of the plastic ties is greater than that of the nickel silver rail. There's more of it to start with. As they change length together the difference must be tiny.
Unless your railroad is subjected to wide range of temperature change, as in temporary unheated storage or while moving house for example, I expect the differential expansion or contraction between the plastic ties and the rails would be insignificant.
The whole layout responds to temperature, unlike the prototype. Rail distortion should be very rare either way: soldered or not, nailed down or glued.
Yes Mike, good points. Previous discussions on this forum concluded that there is very little expansion of the actual track materials as you mention.
Most expansion and contraction comes from the wood we use in our benchwork, which then carries to the track as we ultimately attach our track to the benchwork. The layout becomes fixed layers of different materials with different properties, and most are at the mercy of the more violent expansion/contraction rate of the wood benchwork.
If you run a layout in its temporary stage, like I do without permanently attaching the track to the benchwork as I test-build, the track doesn't move with the expanding/contracting benchwork. Its only after its attached does the surprise happen if the track is not gapped at some point.
Dehumidifiers would help.
Building benchwork out of metal would help.
I can think of a couple of forum members who did that because of climate reasons.
ATLANTIC CENTRALhe layout was DCC, and he installed feeder drops every 6 feet. Most of those drops never got connected to the buss. The rail joints were soldered.
It stands to reason that if all the joints were soldered, all those drops would indeed be redundant.
I'm not sure what is over-kill, but on stretches of unsoldered joints left floating, it seems reasonable to provide drops connected to the bus at fairly frequent intervals. On a single track mainline, every six feet seems reasonable and not a great deal of work. If one solders every joint much longer intervals would probably be sufficient.
LastspikemikeIt is probable that the thermal expansion or contraction of the plastic ties is greater than that of the nickel silver rail. There's more of it to start with. As they change length together the difference must be tiny.
Interestingly, a number of the reported 'buckling' incidents refer to vertical failure, where the rails or track 'bow' vertically instead of 'sun kinking' sideways. In the 1920s some German research into 'sprung track' construction took up the issue of sun kinking, and one of their early experiments involved resistance heating the rails in order to mimick environmental heating. What they observed was just this sort of vertical bowing of the test section, rather than lateral motion; whether it was due to the rate of heating I do not now remember. It would certainly not occur if the ties were well bonded down, or substantially heavier in mass.
For the record, track warped on my previous layout one summer. The layout was in my basement (in Canada), where there is no air conditioning. I don't think the temperature was higher than 85 degrees... Nothing major, but I noticed it when one of my steam loco's hot frame shorted on the curves (from the cowcatcher). That cowcatcher was filed down, but the warp was very much noticeable when you looked up close. The layout was pretty much a loop on a 4X6. My new layout has a few expansion gaps...
Simon
In my disaster the track was Atlas code 100 and the ties were loosely anchored with track nails about every 12 inches in a hidden 30” radius helix (about 33’ of track) and the flex ties placement on the cork looked normal. The rails broke the spike heads off the ties. The rails were well away from their correct position on the ties, the outside rails were pushed out to the edge of the ties.I was so upset that I didn’t even think about taking pictures.It was rather interesting in that only the hidden track was not ballasted and all the none hidden track was Atlas code 83 well anchored with ballast (about 90’). Only the unballasted track was effected.I was the new guy on the block back then in a new city and bought all of my track from the same LHS. When I went in and bought the replacement track and told the owner what happened he said “bet you soldered the joiners”. I was so upset that I didn’t even think about taking pictures. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
riogrande5761 ATLANTIC CENTRAL he layout was DCC, and he installed feeder drops every 6 feet. Most of those drops never got connected to the buss. The rail joints were soldered. It stands to reason that if all the joints were soldered, all those drops would indeed be redundant. I'm not sure what is over-kill, but on stretches of unsoldered joints left floating, it seems reasonable to provide drops connected to the bus at fairly frequent intervals. On a single track mainline, every six feet seems reasonable and not a great deal of work. If one solders every joint much longer intervals would probably be sufficient.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL he layout was DCC, and he installed feeder drops every 6 feet. Most of those drops never got connected to the buss. The rail joints were soldered.
Given the nature of DCC, agreed, unsoldered track needs more feeders.
While I have always soldered my rail joints, or provided jumpers around a very few "expansion joints", with DC, other modelers I know have never had issues of voltage drop or other losses even with some joints not soldered.
My longest blocks are typically 50-60 feet, fed with #18 feeders that may sometimes be 20' from the #12 throttle buss that distributes the 8 throttles to the local relay panels of my Advanced Cab Control system.
RR_MelIn my disaster the track was Atlas code 100 and the ties were loosely anchored with track nails about every 12 inches in a hidden 30” radius helix (about 33’ of track) and the flex ties placement on the cork looked normal. The rails broke the spike heads off the ties.
Perhaps it bears noting that if there are going to be differential-expansion effects from a length of metal rail overconstrained at both ends, they'll manifest most notably on the outside radius of a prolonged curve (which is of course what a helix is). The 'load' is entirely on the inner edges and tops of the little plastic tabs on the outer-radius side, and being tangential the leverage on them is immense (compare the tension pushing sideways on a clothesline between two fixed ends). If you have in fact soldered this into one long effective rail with no 'give' at the ends, retaining gauge will need much more strength than unmodified flex track will likely provide. (Note that it would also be possible for rail in track laid and soldered at high temperature to pull to the inside on cold contraction...)
I think a kind of moral here is that helices need to be built with unsoldered gaps on at least one side of joiners, and with feeders to each section to compensate for any loss in 'continuity'; if there are valid places to use dielectric grease on joiners to aid in effective electrical continuity by preventing oxidation (as with aluminum house wiring) this would be at the top of the list.
OvermodIt was my first helix (1989) in my then 38yr model railroading career.In my case the rail didn’t break all the spikes in each section of flex but seriously dinged a total of 11 sections of flex track, both rails in every section. I laid most of my track in the fall and winter months (maybe around 60°s daytime, 40°s or so over night). The garage would be 104°+ most of the summer.It took almost two years to complete my 120’ mainline and the beginning of fall the second year is when I discovered the disaster. It caught me so off guard that I actually was looking of evidence of a critter not a heat expansion problem.We weren’t newbie’s to heat but not the severe 80°+ temperature swing between winter and summer in Bakersfield. The added R30 insulation (the garage roof had maybe R10) took care of the problem. The added insulation really helped the house too, well worth the expense! Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
RR_Mel In my disaster the track was Atlas code 100 and the ties were loosely anchored with track nails about every 12 inches in a hidden 30” radius helix (about 33’ of track) and the flex ties placement on the cork looked normal. The rails broke the spike heads off the ties. The rails were well away from their correct position on the ties, the outside rails were pushed out to the edge of the ties.I was so upset that I didn’t even think about taking pictures.It was rather interesting in that only the hidden track was not ballasted and all the none hidden track was Atlas code 83 well anchored with ballast (about 90’). Only the unballasted track was effected.I was the new guy on the block back then in a new city and bought all of my track from the same LHS. When I went in and bought the replacement track and told the owner what happened he said “bet you soldered the joiners”. I was so upset that I didn’t even think about taking pictures. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
From recollection of Mr. Smith's high school physics class.
The force exerted by the expansion found the weak spot in your track. The strong ballasted part of the layout transferred the force to the weak spot. Essentially, your helix became the expansion gap.
Unless you provide a deliberate gap(s) to channel the force to, the layout will find its weak spot.
DouglasYou are so correct. I didn’t remove the soldered joiners from the code 83 rails but none of the replacement code 100 track joiners are soldered.As a college grad (EE) one would have thought I would have known better but having soldered the joiners on three pervious layouts without a problem I just didn’t give it any thought. My only excuse is had been 30 years since my college days, that’s the best I can come up with.As Ron White said “you can’t fix stupid”. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Mr. Smith! One of my favorites. I think many of today's students would have a hard time passing his physics tests.
York1 John
maybe humidity has a greater effect than temperature
LastspikemikeI note that Atlas flex track only has gaps in the tie webs under one rail. The rsil that's supposed to be the outside rail has no flexing gaps in the ties. Shinohara uses the same pattern.
Shinohara alternates (staggers) the tie gap:
Atlas_Shinohara by Edmund, on Flickr
Atlas left — Shinohara (Walthers) right. Both code 83.
In the interest of accuracy.
Thank you, Ed
gregc maybe humidity has a greater effect than temperature
gmpullman Lastspikemike I note that Atlas flex track only has gaps in the tie webs under one rail. The rsil that's supposed to be the outside rail has no flexing gaps in the ties. Shinohara uses the same pattern. Shinohara alternates (staggers) the tie gap: Atlas_Shinohara by Edmund, on Flickr Atlas left — Shinohara (Walthers) right. Both code 83. In the interest of accuracy. Thank you, Ed
Lastspikemike I note that Atlas flex track only has gaps in the tie webs under one rail. The rsil that's supposed to be the outside rail has no flexing gaps in the ties. Shinohara uses the same pattern.
In 40 or 45 years of using Atlas flex track, I have never given any consideration to the tie gaps being on the inside or the outside of the curve, with no ill effects.
And I have never read any information published by Atlas regarding this issue.
But then again, I am usually only bending it to 36" radius or larger except for some industrial trackage.
I agree with Sheldon.
I too was wondering about that. I’ve been using Atlas Flex Track since it was first released and installed it both ways on three layouts. Can’t say I’ve ever seen or been instructed which side is correct. On tight curves the ties are closer one way and wider on the opposite side. I always tried to keep it the same way. Anyone know for sure what Atlas says?Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
York1 Mr. Smith! One of my favorites. I think many of today's students would have a hard time passing his physics tests.
Oh wow. I had forgotten that you grew up in the same town and went to the same HS I did, just about a decade before right?
Yeah, Wild Bill was quite the teacher and test giver. I also had the (un)fortune of having him for home room for 3 years.
He was actually a good guy.