My father had a mens store and when he died after a brief and tragic battle with cancer, my mother sold it to the manager, who didn't have the money to buy it outright. He was supposed to buy it over time. In clothing, you have to buy several months in advance, what you think people will want to wear next season. He didn't have that skill. The store, with my father's name still on it, did less and less business. We witnessed the quality, formerly associated with our name, disappear.There were other variables, the rise of Men's Warehouse and the deterioration of the neighborhood. But bottom line, all the employees were laid off, my mother never got the full value of the businees and Rite Aid expanded into the space so customers had to go somewhere else.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
ATLANTIC CENTRAL NittanyLion The only distinction I'll draw is it makes sense when a guy in his garage making small production says "I'm retiring, buy while you can" and leading with that. To me, having employees means you probably should be leading with finding a buyer first. Leaves an awkward elephant when your retirement puts others out of work. Besides, retirement doesn't mean you have to cease operating. Just now you're the owner while someone else gets the heartburn managing. So if you own a business where the fixed assets are valuable with or without the company, and possibly the value of those fixed assets is a major portion of your retirement fund, your suggesting that rather than take your money out, by selling the business or shutting it down and sell off the assets, you are some how obligated to trust someone else to run it and guard your retirement money for you? Sheldon
NittanyLion The only distinction I'll draw is it makes sense when a guy in his garage making small production says "I'm retiring, buy while you can" and leading with that. To me, having employees means you probably should be leading with finding a buyer first. Leaves an awkward elephant when your retirement puts others out of work. Besides, retirement doesn't mean you have to cease operating. Just now you're the owner while someone else gets the heartburn managing.
The only distinction I'll draw is it makes sense when a guy in his garage making small production says "I'm retiring, buy while you can" and leading with that. To me, having employees means you probably should be leading with finding a buyer first. Leaves an awkward elephant when your retirement puts others out of work.
Besides, retirement doesn't mean you have to cease operating. Just now you're the owner while someone else gets the heartburn managing.
So if you own a business where the fixed assets are valuable with or without the company, and possibly the value of those fixed assets is a major portion of your retirement fund, your suggesting that rather than take your money out, by selling the business or shutting it down and sell off the assets, you are some how obligated to trust someone else to run it and guard your retirement money for you?
Sheldon
Obligated? No. Your company, do what you want to do within the bounds of the law.
But that still makes me think it is vaguely selfish to put your own company out of business and a few people out of work so that you can retire, if there's an avenue open to do otherwise. And if I'm injecting my own personal perferences it there, I can't imagine starting a business knowing and intending that it will end with me.
And they say MILLENIALS are entitled.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Perhaps if someone steps in to continue the line they willl fix the products to use DCC instead a stand alone system that doesnt really work.
NittanyLion ATLANTIC CENTRAL NittanyLion The only distinction I'll draw is it makes sense when a guy in his garage making small production says "I'm retiring, buy while you can" and leading with that. To me, having employees means you probably should be leading with finding a buyer first. Leaves an awkward elephant when your retirement puts others out of work. Besides, retirement doesn't mean you have to cease operating. Just now you're the owner while someone else gets the heartburn managing. So if you own a business where the fixed assets are valuable with or without the company, and possibly the value of those fixed assets is a major portion of your retirement fund, your suggesting that rather than take your money out, by selling the business or shutting it down and sell off the assets, you are some how obligated to trust someone else to run it and guard your retirement money for you? Sheldon Obligated? No. Your company, do what you want to do within the bounds of the law. But that still makes me think it is vaguely selfish to put your own company out of business and a few people out of work so that you can retire, if there's an avenue open to do otherwise. And if I'm injecting my own personal perferences it there, I can't imagine starting a business knowing and intending that it will end with me.
What do you do for a living?
I restore historic houses. I only have one direct employee. I have taught a lot of people a lot about my craft.
I have been self employed most of my life. But I have no interest in employing a lot of people or leaving a "legacy".
My legacy will be the houses I saved, and the knowledge I passed on.
But my "company" will end when I retire........
I've refrained from making comments about the ancillary topic of small businesses, but as a person involved with the lending industry, I thought that I would contribute my two cents.
Almost all small businesses succeed because of the vision and dedication of its owner. He or she succeeds by finding niches in the gaps between what the big players serve. Without him, that business would not be what it is. Hopefully, the employees learn what he has learned and can carry on after he leaves. No owner can work until he's 85, nor is he obligated to keep working utntil he drops dead.
And he is most certainly not obligated to stick around just to prevent his employees from having to find another job. That's the tail wagging the dog, where the smart guy with the vision and brains becomes an indentured servant to the employees simply because the employees want to keep their particular job. God help America if that thinking becomes the norm.
If MTHs products have value, then some other company will pick up the line and the customers will be served by some other brand name. It happens in model railroading all of the time.
If the products do not get picked up, then Mr. Wolf's vision may have been a bit off, which would make it likely that everybody would have to find another job at some point anyway.
And one other thing. Small business owners generally do not have pensions after working for themselves for 30 years. They create their business from their vision and talents and hopefully in the end, when they are too old to work every day, they have built something that can be passed on....at a sales price with which they can live off of for the rest of their lives.
- Douglas
Bottom line, it's his company, he can do what he wants.
Realistically - Model Power keeps getting passed around, and despite gripes, MTH stuff is MUCH higher level than Model Power. So odds are pretty good SOMEONE will want to acquire MTH tooling. Maybe in two pieces, two different buys, one for the O and one for HO. But if Model Power can keep getting passed around, surely MTH will.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL NittanyLion ATLANTIC CENTRAL NittanyLion The only distinction I'll draw is it makes sense when a guy in his garage making small production says "I'm retiring, buy while you can" and leading with that. To me, having employees means you probably should be leading with finding a buyer first. Leaves an awkward elephant when your retirement puts others out of work. Besides, retirement doesn't mean you have to cease operating. Just now you're the owner while someone else gets the heartburn managing. So if you own a business where the fixed assets are valuable with or without the company, and possibly the value of those fixed assets is a major portion of your retirement fund, your suggesting that rather than take your money out, by selling the business or shutting it down and sell off the assets, you are some how obligated to trust someone else to run it and guard your retirement money for you? Sheldon Obligated? No. Your company, do what you want to do within the bounds of the law. But that still makes me think it is vaguely selfish to put your own company out of business and a few people out of work so that you can retire, if there's an avenue open to do otherwise. And if I'm injecting my own personal perferences it there, I can't imagine starting a business knowing and intending that it will end with me. What do you do for a living? I restore historic houses. I only have one direct employee. I have taught a lot of people a lot about my craft. I have been self employed most of my life. But I have no interest in employing a lot of people or leaving a "legacy". My legacy will be the houses I saved, and the knowledge I passed on. But my "company" will end when I retire........ Sheldon
Cog in the gigantic machine on the Potomac.
I'm a ruthless capitalist and I have no real concern if someone does what they feel is right for them. But I may not understand their choices when viewed through the lens of how I would operate if I was in their shoes. I've worked for some very small boutique consulting firms and had to worry about what would happen to me if the person running the firm decided to cash out. Because of that, I'd be reluctant to make my employees have that worry if I was the guy in charge. But that's just me.
Never been a business owner. But I worked all my adult life.When I found a better job, my loyalty to the current company consisted of the professionalism to give two week notice.When I decided to retire, I retired.Mike Wolfe has the same **** rights.
Bayfield Transfer Railway Never been a business owner. But I worked all my adult life.When I found a better job, my loyalty to the current company consisted of the professionalism to give two week notice.When I decided to retire, I retired.Mike Wolfe has the same **** rights.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain Bayfield Transfer Railway Never been a business owner. But I worked all my adult life.When I found a better job, my loyalty to the current company consisted of the professionalism to give two week notice.When I decided to retire, I retired.Mike Wolfe has the same **** rights. He may have the same rights but I would argue that as a small business owner he has more of a moral obligation to try to ensure that the small business carries on. How often do we see our favorite restaurant simply up and close or most any other boutique-type business for that matter. Rich
He may have the same rights but I would argue that as a small business owner he has more of a moral obligation to try to ensure that the small business carries on. How often do we see our favorite restaurant simply up and close or most any other boutique-type business for that matter.
As Doughless and Henry pointed out, often the owner is the "magic" in a small business. Some carry on successfully with new owners, many don't.
While I would agree that it is a nice outcome when a business can successfully carry on, I'm sure it would ever rise to the level of "moral obligation" in my mind.
Adam Smith suggested that my first moral obligation to my fellow man is to take care of myself and my family so that no one else has to. My second moral obligation is to conform to the accepted rules of fair play in the economy.
After that......it is capitalism.
Resturants? They come and go like the seasons around here.........
If the employees of MTH want it to carry on, then hopefully some long time employees learned the business, the niche Wolf created, well enough to the point that those employees can carry on without a misstep (provided that MTH hadn't already stepped in it to a degree).
What they learned is free, they don't have to pay Wolf for the knowledge they accumulated, but they will have to pay him for the MTH brand name recognition (customer loyalty that they will be benefiting from) and the tooling.
News Flash: People die. Owners want to have some years of relaxation before they die. Employees who want to still work need to have learned what Wolf learned in order to carry on the business. Maybe they have, maybe they haven't.
They might even see some errors with how Wolf did things and have the opportunity to make MTH better with Wolf out of the picture.
Either way, the business succeeds because of the vision and skill of the people who run it. For their own futures, each employee needs to assess if that guy can keep it going or not. Maybe they hitched their wagon to a falling star.
Some owners never teach their employees anything, hiding the secrets, because they don't want an abitious one to leave the company and take what he or she has learned and start a competing business, which happens alot. In that case, that ambitious employee needed to decide whether to stay at current wages or move on to better opportunities.
If the products have true value, if the industry can truly handle the amount of products being generated (a big question mark); and if the employees have developed a marketable skill during the years they worked there (properly described on a resume and in a job interview), everybody usually lands on their feet just fine.
Ok, here is an MTH GP35 for sale on ebay (hope its okay to link).
Its says its DCC, so I assume it will also run on a NCE Power Cab with no problem.
The details look fine to me. The lift rings are oversized, but that's okay because I can actually see them. The handrails almost look like wire jobs ala Athearn Blue Box, which would be okay too. Some of the tooling looks a bit uncrisp, or maybe the paint is thick, but overall the model seems to be a reasonable competitor in the market. Its not Genesis quality, but I think its on par with Trainline, Trainman, and Bachmann. IMO, this is a direct competitor to the Bachmann GP35, which also has a somewhat proprietary DCC system installed (which many do not like).
The bid prices reflects the description and that it has an obscure DCS system, but if it runs normally with an NCE, that doesn't really matter. I'm more concerned about motor and drivetrain quality and whether or not its quiet.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MTH-HO-SCALE-80-2239-1-CONRAIL-GP-35-DIESEL-LOCO-W-DCC-DCS-PROTOSOUND/264752546800?hash=item3da47b43f0:g:m24AAOSwOmZe19UM
None of the employers who laid me off because the construction work dried up ever worried about me having a job.........
The union that tried to intimidate me from a move from management in a union company to a field position with a non union company was only looking out for their members and was mad because I turned down grandfathered membership in their union.
The company who broke their word, and then fired me on the spot when I gave my two weeks notice was only looking out for their interests. That wrongfull termination cost them an expensive unemployment claim.
At the tender age of 20 it only took me four days working for a giant corporation to know that I would not be a good fit in that world.
The longest I ever worked at any one job for someone else (except the hobby shop) was about three years. I was always looking for the next better opportunity.
I have never been shy about giving my "two weeks", and I have never been without a job when I wanted one.
And even when I only had two paychecks between me and broke, I never let an employer know I "needed" their job.
My daddy taught me "You are only entitled to what you earn, and what you can defend. Everything else is a gift from God or from some other person".
Happy to have been self employed most of my life.
Winston Churhhill said "The universal misery of capitalism is the unequal distribution of the blessings, but the universal blessing of socialism is the equal distribution of the misery".
Mike Wolf was a bully in this industry. He has/had a vision of model trains that worked for him selling O gauge and he expected to "convert" HO to that same kind of hobby.
It is rumored, and I say rumored many because the facts are not right in front of me, that he pressured/coerced the NMRA to rewrite the HO DC voltage standard to make his higher track voltage acceptable.
I wish him no ill will, I voted with my pocketbook. His vision of model trains is clearly very different from mine.
I have to think this forum is at least somewhat cross sectional of people in this hobby. Given that how many people have spoke up and said they have MTH HO products? More importantly, the few that have represent more rolling stock than locomotives, from a company that never made much rolling stock, but spend a lot of money trying to "one up" other manufacturers in the locomotive market.
It does not appear to have worked.
Anyone who thinks it is good to have all this duplication of product from different manufacturers does not understand just how small this business is. Four companies making Big Boys does nothing to "grow the hobby". In fact it makes it harder for each company to make a profit and possibly grow the hobby with products never offered.
Back in the day, the owners of Athearn and Roundhouse were friends. They did work for each other based on their capabilities, and they developed their respective product lines with very little overlap. They both did very well. Much of that product lives on in various forms today or is readily available on the secondary market. THEY grew the hobby.
Here is video from 'another place' with Mike himself discussing DCC and DCS in his products:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BnVFaUVVMT0
What a funny video, 1/3 of the way in, Mike Wolf says "people don't double head steam locomotives", obviously he is not familiar with my modeling or the videos Dr Wayne has posted on here. Wayne and I both mix brands, run double headers and helpers, and use DC.
Many of the comments and attitudes expressed prove my point, it is all about the sound and effects, not about scale models.
While MTH is a big name for other scales, like O, in the HO world, where I model in, MTH is a reletively small name. I have only one model that is MTH made - A flat car model that I found at a show that just so happened to be the correct paint I was looking for. At that point, it could have been made by anyone, so long as it didn't have issues I would have gone home with it for the price I paid.
I seen a few of their earlier loco offerings in person, and was not impressed. Then it was brought out how their proprietary DCS system in said locomotives was not exactly 100% DCC compatible, and I was turned off entirely from their loco offerings. Never did even try one because of it.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
If you are referring to the E-Z App version of the bachmann GP35, that is pretty much 100% proprietary and only runs on DCC in the sense that it can take power from DCC track. Can't control it with a DCC system. They may not be completely clear about that. But Bachmann's locos with DCC and/or sound on board, while maybe not the best of decoders, are pure DCC and work with any DCC system.
The MTH locos - every time they come out with a new one, they seem to add a bit more to the DCC side, but some things still cannot be configured without their proprietary DCS system. And people who bought earlier MTH HO locos, they are just stuck, there's no upgrade option. So some will work better for DCC users than others. MTH touts features of DCS making it better than DCC, although most of those that you can't get in DCC tend to be more toy train type of things, like talking through the system to the speaker in the loco. Auto identify the loco on the rails? Most of the newer DCC systems with Railcom/Railcom+ do that. Clearly there must be some sort of DCS address, unless they expect you to only ever own one of a given model loco. Perhaps it's coded in the hardware like an Ethernet MAC address.
ANd you can't just simply swap electronics. If you disconnected the DCS receiver and put in a DCC decoder and connected the wires to the same places, none of the lights will work, because MTH uses a common negative. DCC is common positive. All of the LED boards also need to be required or replaced to get the lights working with a DCC decoder. It may or may not be worth the effort. I got my FAs cheap enough that adding the cost of a couple of DCC sound decoders won't make the whole thing cost more than the original selling price of the DCS models. It really comes down to if my time is worth it to do all the work necessary.
I don't know much about the details of the inner workings of the hobby business, but just an observation from watchin ght evideo at the 30,000 foot level: MTH seemed to enter the HO market by copying what both Atlas and Bachmann did when they entered DCC about 15-20 years ago. Selling the customer the locomotive AND their own control systems with branded power stations and possibly throttles.
I simply think the HO market moved on from that approach as most consumers chose Digitrax or NCE for the control system and bought locomotives for the attributes of the loco rather than the specifics of the electronics. Nobody really wants an Atlas Command Station any more to the point they don't even make it (AFAIK) and I assume Bachmann's branded product is basically irrelevant.
I don't see it as entering the market with their own ideas necessarily. It looks to me like they entered the market copying ideas that were already on the way out. The vision was off.
rrinker If you are referring to the E-Z App version of the bachmann GP35, that is pretty much 100% proprietary and only runs on DCC in the sense that it can take power from DCC track. Can't control it with a DCC system. They may not be completely clear about that. But Bachmann's locos with DCC and/or sound on board, while maybe not the best of decoders, are pure DCC and work with any DCC system. ANd you can't just simply swap electronics. If you disconnected the DCS receiver and put in a DCC decoder and connected the wires to the same places, none of the lights will work, because MTH uses a common negative. DCC is common positive. All of the LED boards also need to be required or replaced to get the lights working with a DCC decoder. It may or may not be worth the effort. I got my FAs cheap enough that adding the cost of a couple of DCC sound decoders won't make the whole thing cost more than the original selling price of the DCS models. It really comes down to if my time is worth it to do all the work necessary. --Randy
Yeah, the Bachmann locos will run on any DCC station, but its still obvious to me they are trying to sell customers the whole package too, just like MTH was trying to do. Bachmann's is more appealing because its more diverse, but the idea looks basically the same to me. They want to have so many dollars of revenue generated from selling their DCC system products and market things accordingly. I think most HO modelers reject that concept.
If I were to buy that MTH GP35, I would strip it down to the truck and motor leads and connect them to a green old-school Atlas light board with an 8 pin plug. If I wanted to take advantage of the spaeker already in the fuel tank (so it looks), I would install a Tsunami 2. Maybe I'd have to install LEDs too, if you're saying the existing LEDs wouldn't work even if I switched the leads to the proper (opposite polarity) tab on the decoder.
IMO, if the drivetrain of the MTH is smooth and quiet, its more valuable than a Bachmann GP35 or and old Athearn BB (gp38-2) or possibly even the RTR GP35. But probably still a money loser for MTH relative to what they invested in it.
I have not replied because I do not own, nor desire, any MTH products.
All I have to say is I think it hurts everything when one of the noted manufacturers is lost, even if they never made anything that met my needs.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
maxman
stupid horse ....
Dave Nelson
dknelson maxman stupid horse .... Dave Nelson
If the horse had not announced its retirement, it wouldn't have been beaten.
We have no idea of the value of MTH as a business. I would assume they have a positive balance sheet. But, are they saddled with too much debt? Other obligations?
Mike Wolf must want to maximize any returns he might get from selling the business. Remember, they are the only supplier of DCS, and a lot of modelers who use it would be out of luck without MTH. It's a built-in captive audience.
I think MTH will be sold, more or less as is. I could see new owners spinning off the HO products, or maybe slowly transitioning away from DCS in HO to better match up with their market.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
i'm one of those early MTH HO guys, both SD 70's has problems that required mfgr repaire as no one at my local train shop wanted to touch the engines. Bayway Terminal
richhotrainSurprising, but good riddance. I still recall the lawsuit MTH filed against BLI. And, from what I recall, MTH locos in HO scale were a real problem early on for guys who bought them. I would be saddened to see Atlas or BLI or even Intermountain close down, but MTH? Nah. Rich
Sorry to hear that MTH is closing. It's never a good thing when a major train company goes down, but that doesn't actually seem to be what's happening yet. I don't currently own any MTH product, but I had one of their O Train sets for a while and it was a very nice running and well put together product.
I do think it's somewhat surprising that folks are already arguing about closing/selling/etc. The official closing date is almost a year away and the owner is clearly open to outside or employee-organized deals to carry on the bussiness and/or it's assets in some meaningfull way. Wait-and-see might be the best course of action here.
Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad for Chicago Trainspotting and Budget Model Railroading.
I'm not going to comment here except to say "Hi!" to all the familiar names I recognize from the "Trains" Forum! Hello gents!
I've been commenting about it on the "Classic Toy Trains" Forum anyway.
Yes, Bachmann and Atlas sold DCC systems, as well as locos with DCC - but that's the point - they were standard DCC systems cna could run locoos by other makers besides the Atlas and Bachmann ones, or you could runt he Atlas and Bachmann locos on someone else's DCC system. You can't run a DCC loco on a DCS system (without buying a DCC system in addition to the DCS system and using it in passthrough mode), and using DCS loco on DCC works, to a varying degree, more features are available the newer the model, but still there are things you cannot do with a DCC system that requires DCS to adjust or access.
It's not the same at all to say Atlas and Bachmann both had their own systems for sale, they weren't some incompatible compteting control system, they were standard DCC. Atlas dropped out because theirs was a rebadged Lenz starter set that Lenz discontinued. Bachmann tried twice, once with a custom made Lenz unit that Lenz stopped making, and again with a rebadged ESU system that ESU stopped making. Neither is going to leave you stranded if either company went belly up tomorrow. If you have a large fleet of DCS locos, especially in O scale, and no one buys MTH and keeps it open after next year - better hope you put a paddle under the seat.
rrinker Yes, Bachmann and Atlas sold DCC systems, as well as locos with DCC - but that's the point - they were standard DCC systems cna could run locoos by other makers besides the Atlas and Bachmann ones, or you could runt he Atlas and Bachmann locos on someone else's DCC system. You can't run a DCC loco on a DCS system (without buying a DCC system in addition to the DCS system and using it in passthrough mode), and using DCS loco on DCC works, to a varying degree, more features are available the newer the model, but still there are things you cannot do with a DCC system that requires DCS to adjust or access. It's not the same at all to say Atlas and Bachmann both had their own systems for sale, they weren't some incompatible compteting control system, they were standard DCC. Atlas dropped out because theirs was a rebadged Lenz starter set that Lenz discontinued. Bachmann tried twice, once with a custom made Lenz unit that Lenz stopped making, and again with a rebadged ESU system that ESU stopped making. Neither is going to leave you stranded if either company went belly up tomorrow. If you have a large fleet of DCS locos, especially in O scale, and no one buys MTH and keeps it open after next year - better hope you put a paddle under the seat. --Randy
Randy, my comparison of how MTH entered the HO market with how Bachmann and Atlas entered the DCC market was not meant to be a direct comparison. I acknowledged Atlas and Bachmann made systems that were compatible with other systems as well as each other.
My real point is that all three companies tried to gather revenue by selling their own branded systems; sell the whole system along with the loco, where MTH went the step farther with their system and locos being incompatible with every other HO system, at least at first. Even with compatibility offered by Atlas and Bachmann, those company branded systems sort of took a back seat to the Digitraxx and NCE products, so the way MTH entered the HO market really made it a tall effort. And since it was after those Atlas and Bachmann systems displayed the idea that company branded systems were not really being accepted by the market to a great degree, it seems especially difficult for MTH to have expected their isolated system to take off in HO. But hindsight is 20/20.