Deadrail RTR just isn't going to happen in HO scale, at least not in any widespread fashion like DCC has.Battery technology changes too rapidly. How many of us have had to get rid of some electrical product because they don't make that battery anymore? No company in this hobby can afford to make their own batteries, so they'll be entirely dependant on getting commercial batteries from someone else who could go out of business tomorrow.Batteries don't last. How many of us have had to get rid of some electrical product because the battery won't hold a charge anymore? You might get 5 years out of a battery, but then you have to change it. Multiply that for every engine you have for the rest of your life and that's going to get expensive.
Replacing batteries will be a pain. Can you really see yourself opening all your engines over and over again to change the batteries? Batteries can self destruct. We've all seen the news where someone's cell phone catches fire in their pocket or some kid's "hoverboard" burns down a house.Batteries take up too much space. There's a practical limit to getting a large enough battery to actually last and modern loco models are already chock full.Battery-equipped engines dying on the mainline. Imagine you've got an open house or an operation planned, you start running your train with an A-B-B-A set, and the battery goes kaput on a B-unit. There won't be any warning, it'll just stop. And if you don't catch it, you'll have flat spots on the dead engine's wheels.It would take a non-flammable battery that can be used for decades and still take a charge, run for hours yet fit in a switcher, and cost less than $20 for deadrail to become practical -- all so people don't have to clean track or wheels. I don't see that ever happening in HO scale without some major scientific breakthroughs.
The real reason we don't have RTR dead rail is liability as they would not be making their own batteries. The solution for this is to build what could be dead rail but not advertize it as such, just say the extra wires are for future items, modelers would soon fiqure it out.
selectorI wonder how something 'advanced' like DCC ever got started and then widely accepted.
Well, I happen to know the story behind the development of DCC. It all started with Märklin commissioning Bernd Lenz of Lenz Elektrnik to develop a system to control multiple trains on a single track. Strangely enough, Märklin finally decided against using his system, and went for a Motorola development instead. Bernd Lenz, a true-blooded model railroader himself, gave up his rights on his development, thus making it available for all. We owe it to him and the NMRA to have DCC now as a world-wide standard.
Personally, I think that dead rail would be high up on my list of future developments. Well, not as a development, but making it widely available as a factory option. There are basically only two things I don´t like about our hobby and they are wiring (incl. this dan finer-burning soldering) and cleaning the track. Dead rail does away with that!
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
As far as dead rail, the batteries exist. As far as 3d you can but a liquid rapid prototyping machine for fairly cheap (they used to cal these imursion printers when first invented).
The whole point for dead rail is no wireing to the track at all. The only wire you would use is for lights in buildings and the like.
Dave
I think the biggest overall advancement will be in the area of 3D printing. With a dwindling supply of detail parts and the increasing interested in prototypical model railroading, this could very well be the only way to get them. I see parts and other components showing up in some of the online marketplaces (e.g. Shapeways), but I anticipate the launch of an open platform for exchange of 3D designs for model railroading, not only for detail parts, but cars, structures, figures, etc.
Dead rail seems like it could see adoption. The radio control side of this has pretty much been solved, and I don't see that as a major obsticle. I know there is the issue of battery technology, but wonder - if batteries are rechargeable and there is power to at least a portion of track, couldn't the batteries be continuously recharged, negating the need for some major advancement in battery technology?
selector Oh, and a $200 signaling system, with maybe four semaphores or light stands included with the kit of sensors and power distribution, would go a long way in the hobby.
Oh, and a $200 signaling system, with maybe four semaphores or light stands included with the kit of sensors and power distribution, would go a long way in the hobby.
If only signaling could be that simple.
I have explained better ways to make signaling realistic but relatively simple, but too many people are hung up on terms they barely understand like "permissive" or "automatic block signals" to understand what part of a prototype system would actually be useful on a model railroad.
Model railroades need control point signals, also known as "absolute signals", way more than they need block signals.
Than can be simple, but requires custom application to the track plan.
Sheldon
Trainman440 but if China can mass produce complex electronic chips for $0.99, I find it hard to believe they cant lower the $100+ price tag on certain decoders.
but if China can mass produce complex electronic chips for $0.99, I find it hard to believe they cant lower the $100+ price tag on certain decoders.
It isn't on the component end. The cost is on the finished product end.
I can vomit out LEDs that I sell for a penny a piece from my LED factory because I'm selling 30 billion of them a year. If I'm making decoders that I might sell a few hundred of per year...I'm going to have a different cost model that makes my products cost more, even if they are made out of 1 cent components.
gregc is there any interest in more realistic loco operation? the ProtoThrottle provides more realistic momentum and braking. Is there any interest in making this more realistic by accounting for the weight of the train? is there any interest in something similar for Steam locomotives? Use of the reverser to control cutoff to preserve steam capacity at speed, monitoring boiler pressure and water level, monitoring the fire and adding more coal, dealing with slipping, worrying about running out of water?
is there any interest in more realistic loco operation?
the ProtoThrottle provides more realistic momentum and braking. Is there any interest in making this more realistic by accounting for the weight of the train?
is there any interest in something similar for Steam locomotives? Use of the reverser to control cutoff to preserve steam capacity at speed, monitoring boiler pressure and water level, monitoring the fire and adding more coal, dealing with slipping, worrying about running out of water?
Personally, no.
There were effective throttles with brakes, momentum and load compensation long before DCC, they were of marginal popularity then.
I like operations, but having participated in operating sessions on a number of large layouts, I am a firm believer that the most effective and fun layouts rely on simple throttles and simplified CTC or train orders.
Our distances and our "time" are too compressed for all those "details" of real life operation.
In one way I admire those who build the full blown CTC machine in a separate room - but I don't want to be the dispatcher on that layout.
My simplified CTC will be nearly right in the middle of the room with a commanding view of 3/4's of the layout. It will only take one button to set an interlocking route, and one or two more buttons to clear a train to proceed. No multi step process like the prototype.
Throttles need to be simple, in my case Aristo wireless radio throttles. Five buttons - FASTER - SLOWER - EAST - WEST - EMERGENCY STOP
A trip around my layout by a mainline train with or without a dispatcher on duty will require no more "button pushing" or "toggle operation" (I don't use toggle switches for trains or turnouts) than most DCC layouts. Especially if the DCC layout uses the throttle to throw turnouts.
But our track distances, even on the largest layouts, do not truely support all this proto throttle stuff. Especially for a busy layout with 6-8 operators.
csxns ATLANTIC CENTRAL Why wait for MRC? I like MRC.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Why wait for MRC?
I like MRC.
I suspect it's going to be a very long wait.
GPS based signaling.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I'd rather companies focus on improving what they currently got, like producing trains with proper coupler height(seems to be super difficult), and just making trains more affordable.
I find that the most proportionally expensive item in model railroading isn't actually the engines or the cars, but rather the decoders. Obviously I know nothing about the industry, but if China can mass produce complex electronic chips for $0.99, I find it hard to believe they cant lower the $100+ price tag on certain decoders.
PS Im aware the "hobby is too expensive!" thread is all too common, but still
Charles
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhy wait for MRC?
Russell
Greg, the answer is yes, surely. But...how much? How large of a market where people who go to the trouble and initial expenses of bringing such things to a small market will there be? Honestly, now that I have been in this hobby a whopping 14 years, I wonder how something 'advanced' like DCC ever got started and then widely accepted. There are some brave souls out there who are indomitable. Maybe there's the answer: people who just won't quit.
To the question, I wish there was such a thing as either dead rail or caps for our intermittent pickup problems here and there. Don't get me wrong, I run very successfully and know (pretty much) how to fix electrical problems and pickup to the decoder and beyond. Still, it could be better. For me.
I agree with Sheldon in that, at least with our current (affordable) understanding of acoustics and electronics, our HO scale models will make anything approximating high fidelity sound a dream for many years yet. For me, on the other hand, I don't mind how it is at present. I can live with the tinny clipped sounds. They're better than clickety-clickety grrrrrrrrrr running in silent mode.
Finally, I'm at the point where I could do without the coiled tether. But, there's already a solution for that. I just have to pack up up my system, if their policy or capabilities haven't changed recently, and send it in to Digitrax for an upgrade.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Onboard power seems like the next logical step after DCC and wireless throttles. Don't know what's on the horizon as far as battery development goes but I'm amazed and what's already been done. I see no reason why we need better sound. A pair of sugar cube speakers has plenty of output and they've digitized just about every loco sound you could think of. I wouldn't want it any louder than what we have now.
I'm intrigued by 3-D printing although I'm not quite certain what is possibile at this point and in the future. Still not clear as to how it works. Would it be possible to print entire structures. What about color. Regular printers can print just about an color imaginable using just the three primary colors. Could the same be done with the polymers in 3-D printers? I might be showing off my ignorance but it would not surprise me if 10 years from now an entire structure could be printed with correct colors for the various parts and maybe even weather it as well. At this stage, I can't see myself investing in even a low end 3-D printer but if I was starting out, I'd certainly consider it. I'm guessing that in the future instead of buying a kit, you simply buy the print files for the kit or completed structure at a nominal cost and print your own. You could even create modulars.
DAVID FORTNEY Dead rail, locomotives, freight and passenger cars, power supplies, scenery, buildings, sound. what would you like to see? In the sound category I would like a deeper base on onboard sound speakers. dead rail is something in the early stages of development, that may be the next big advance. what do you think it will be and what would you like to see. Dave
Dead rail, locomotives, freight and passenger cars, power supplies, scenery, buildings, sound.
what would you like to see? In the sound category I would like a deeper base on onboard sound speakers.
dead rail is something in the early stages of development, that may be the next big advance.
what do you think it will be and what would you like to see.
Well, even if there is some big "advancement", if it means replacing anything that I already have, leave me out.
Better onboard sound base response? Take it from an experianced HiFi speaker guy, not happening, at least to any large degree.
1" speakers are 1" speakers, micro enclosures are what they are, and physics is what it is.
I think there is a future for dead rail or simply direct radio which can be track powered or dead rail. BUT model railroaders are slow to adapt new control systems.
It has taken 30 years and "human turnover" just to get DCC above 50% useage.
I would like to see a smoother, better chain of supply for product, but that's not happening either.
Parts, parts for the stuff we alread have would be nice. Don't hold your breath for that one either.
csxns What i like MRC too do is come out with a wireless DC power pack.
What i like MRC too do is come out with a wireless DC power pack.
Why wait for MRC?
https://www.revoelectronics.com/
RailPro for N-scale.
Cid (Memphis, Tennessee)
I think there is a good chance that the next "big" advance in HO will be greater acceptance and more commercial availability of something either very close to fine scale standards or even to exact scale standards when it comes to wheels and track. I think our British colleagues have been coming very close to this, although their work may be in OO. There is Proto87 stuff now for those who know to look for it but what I am talking about is Proto87 "coming soon to a store near you."
I am too old to make the switch to Proto standards myself but there are powerful pressures within the hobby to get ever closer to exacting standards of accuracy.
Dave Nelson
I'm doing a Tyco Pacific, turned into a Hudson, for a friend, as a dead rail locomotive, but quite frankly, don't see the point of it. He's running DC, but has, what seems to me, an overly complicated wiring system for his layout and perhaps not the easiest-to-keep-clean layout environment. As best I can tell, he just wants to try it out - a pretty expensive test drive for one loco, although, if he does another one, the throttle and charger won't need to be duplicated.For me, my wiring is simple, and I clean track, in the usual sense of the word, only after ballasting or painting it. Otherwise, it's a yearly or bi-yearly vacuuming.
I have no complaints about DC, and don't feel that I'm missing out on anything, such as sound, lights, or control of multiple trains at the same time - not areas of interest at all.
Wayne
Battery development has been slow and very incremental, but that's probably the next big thing because it would allow Dead Rail in HO.
Really high quality and affordable 3D printing could allow us to "print" our own rolling stock, but how many would do this? We already are seeing a decline in kit building and even kit availability, so how many would bother with something as complex and relatively expensive as 3D printing, when you are then responsible for painting and decaling as well?
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
RR_MelI’m quite happy with where HO model railroading is right now and don’t see any major advances coming that would push my buttons.
Actually, I don't want nything new to come along and push my buttons.
I really do not want to replace a lot of stuff, or do a lot of upgrades. The last time something new came along that really pushed my buttons (Proto-2000, Intermountain, Red Caboose, and Kadee freight cars), I switched scales.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
rrebell RTR dead rail. They could do it now but no one has. Not exactly, it works great in O scale. A friend of mine who has a large O scale layout started to convert his locomotives several years ago and now his entire fleet is dead rail. He can run for about 1 to 2 hours. Now in saying this it is not for everyone but for those who like challenges this may be it. Although it can be done in ho the batteries are still not small enough. Dave
RTR dead rail. They could do it now but no one has.
tstage 3D printing with resolution of 1-mil (0.001") or < and reasonably affordable.
3D printing with resolution of 1-mil (0.001") or < and reasonably affordable.
Now that would ring my bell too.
I’m quite happy with where HO model railroading is right now and don’t see any major advances coming that would push my buttons.Think about it, we have great DCC technology available, super power high efficient motors and all kinds of micro electronic goodies. As for speakers I don’t see much change, there is only so much one can do to improve the sound from a miniature speaker. The 1” Full Range Audio Neodymium Magnet Speakers that I use in my locomotives have very good bass response and just great all around sound.You can get them in 4Ω, 8Ω and 16Ω off eBay, I normally use a pair of 4Ω in series in my steam oil tenders and a single 8Ω in my diesels.My only problem has been the absence of a local train hobby shop and local electronic parts suppliers. I hate having to buy online and wait for what might not be what I thought it was going to be.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
DAVID FORTNEYwhat would you like to see? In the sound category I would like a deeper base on onboard sound speakers.
I would like to see a non-proprietary subwoofer sound approach that allowed all brand decoders to work with it. Like BLIs Paragon 3 approach but all brand decoders could use it. I doubt all decoder companies want to license BLI technology or they all want to collaborate. Plus, not sure I would replace all my decoders.
I think getting much more low frequency sound out our HO locos is doubtful due to limits on speaker size and available space for larger enclosures. No doubt some of today's factory setups could be somewhat better.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent