I spent my 49yr 10mo working career in two-way radio communications and batteries were always a problem. A battery operated device is only as good as it’s operator, if the operator is perfect then the batteries perform perfect. Without perfect battery management batteries can be totally worthless. How many of you have picked up a battery operated device and it wouldn’t work because you the operator failed to maintain it correctly?I use battery operated lighting in all my passenger cars powered from a power unit, in my case the baggage car. I have a 3.6 volt 1000ma Lipo battery with a Lipo charger in the baggage car. The cars are daisy changed from the baggage car at 4 volts.
I also use a function decoder in the baggage car to turn on and off the passenger car lighting. I’ve had a streamline and a heavy weight passenger train working without a single problem for four years.On board batteries will work but only if they are maintained properly. The single 1000ma AA Lipo battery will support my 11 car passenger trains lighting for well over 48 hours without power to the charger, but my lighting draws less then 60ma at 4 volts. A 3.6 volt Lipo battery is at full charge at 4.2 volts.The larger the battery the more charge time to keep it charged. Rule of thumb is double the charge time vs operating time.So Dead Rail or on board batteries is doable but . . . . cost and non perfect battery maintenance are it’s worst enemy.For anyone experimenting with Lipo batteries please buy the protected type. An unprotected Lipo battery can explode if shorted. I have a 50ma resetable fuse in series with my power cars just incase.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Why not use a hybrid system, similar to a normal automotive charging circuit. A small battery, able to run the loco for 5 minutes, constantly charged by the track power, except when there is no track power. In this case the "battery" is the battery, and the track power is the "alternator". Control it by direct radio. Reversing sections could be handled with simple dead spots longer than the locos, no short detecting auto reverser needed. Power supplies might need to be "clean" but otherwise very simple. Current levels could be kept low with multiple power districts just like DCC. Much simpler layout infrastructure. Since polarity would not change detection could be done with a diode circuit or track relay circuit. Detecting that reverse dead spot might be tricky? Maybe a "powerless" circuit could detect the loco power being fed into that section? Frogs could be left dead, complex interlocking trackage could be left dead with the right gaps. Not saying track would never need cleaning, but not likely much of an issue overall. That said, in 50 years at this hobby I have never had all these track cleaning problems I hear about....... Sheldon
Why not use a hybrid system, similar to a normal automotive charging circuit.
A small battery, able to run the loco for 5 minutes, constantly charged by the track power, except when there is no track power.
In this case the "battery" is the battery, and the track power is the "alternator".
Control it by direct radio.
Reversing sections could be handled with simple dead spots longer than the locos, no short detecting auto reverser needed.
Power supplies might need to be "clean" but otherwise very simple. Current levels could be kept low with multiple power districts just like DCC.
Much simpler layout infrastructure. Since polarity would not change detection could be done with a diode circuit or track relay circuit. Detecting that reverse dead spot might be tricky? Maybe a "powerless" circuit could detect the loco power being fed into that section?
Frogs could be left dead, complex interlocking trackage could be left dead with the right gaps.
Not saying track would never need cleaning, but not likely much of an issue overall.
That said, in 50 years at this hobby I have never had all these track cleaning problems I hear about.......
Sheldon
That's exactly what "stay alives" are in DCC. Only using supercapacitors instead of a battery, since they don;t wear out ofter so many charge cycles. There have been applications of supercapcitors for full size vheicle starting as well. I don;t see it catching on until they make them weith the same capacity as a standard car battery, because otherwise it is a lot like an air starter on a truck - you only get so much crank time and then it's dead, pull out an air compressor (or a charger, in this case). The average driver just won't know what to do. Just like turbos are now becoming commonplace - when first introduced, people would drive full tilt to their destinations just like without a turbo, turn the engine off, and wonder why the bearings kept failing, causing expensive repairs. Now with oil and water cooled turbos, and electric water pumps that keep the coolant flowing even after the engine is turned off, there's nothing to 'think' about, just drive. Which is how must lazy Americans want it - too lazy to shift our own gears, too lazy to even bother to perform normal maintenance on vehicles, just female dog and moan when it breaks because the last time you cnaged the oil was 50,000 miles ago "Oh, you have to change that?"
The thing is, I was already doing DCC lon before stay alives became a thing. I never had a problem. Now that they are available, we are led to believe they are absolutely essential for your loco to run. Why? What changed? My old locos still work just fine.
Maybe what we need, if you want to make 'refueling' the loco a thing, are for lower voltage, lower current motors to be used, which allows an equivalent supercapacitor to provide more total energy. Even 5 volts for electronics is becoming outdated, why do we still use 12 volts for trains? Today's batteries still aren;t up to the task - it takes too long to get a meaningful charge into them without overheating or exploding them. No one is going to want to stop on the fuel pad for an hour so they can get scale range out of their loco before another refueling, and it doesn;t take an hour to refuel a diesel loco. Maybe a little more practical with steam, if you could both water and coaling time - but you also have periodic water fills along the way as water is normally consumed far faster than coal. And a water stop to tank up doesn't take enough time to cahrge up the batteries. But supercapcitors - that could be done.
In ther mean time, why NOT power the tracks and keep things charged, and just completely insulate 'tough' things to wire like reverse loops? With traditional DC or DCC, you can keep running a loco until you get too tired. With pure dead rail, you're switching locos, or else giving up after a relatively short time, whether you wanted to or not. Battery's dead, you're done for a while.
I love gadgets, but not for the sake of it being a new gadget. Clockwork trains? We've come full circle. The ONE loco I have that came factory equipped with a keep alive runs just like a clockwork toy - I cna take it off the track and run it across any suitable surface for about as long as a typical clockwork toy would run. It's frankly ridiculous. If that much of my track is so dirty that no power is picked up, I'm doing something wrong. And it's not adjustable, like all the inexpensive 2 wire types, there's no control wire. Some vendors use a 3 wire interface, so there is +, -, and a control, and you can set the duration to something other than "until the capacitor is discharged". But naturally they cost more, and being the cheap rats most of us are, we use the cheaper more basic ones most of the time. And then get the runaway loco that derails and drives across 5 feet of benchwork and right off the edge. Silliness, not improvement.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Sometimes I get the impression that we are just a bunch of old geezers in this forum who are stuck in the "good old days". Thank goodness we are already beyond clockwork drives!
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
BATMANI just hope my dead rail loco can be charged from the rails while it is running around on the rails so I don't have to stop the fun.
That's why "dead rail" makes no sense. Might has well have rail that can keep a battery charged.
Anyway, if so called dead rail is "the next big thing", it seems we should be prepared to wait quite a while before it becomes a common "off the shelf" product that is affordable for a large fleet of engines. Ring Engineering, last I checked, was not practical for my purposes, but better suited for a small fleet of engines cost wise and getting set up wise.
Those who are enamored with dead rail can blaze their own trails but IMO, it's "yet another" hobby within a hobby that I don't have time or money or desire to pursue. I want to actually get a layout up and running and not be screwing around with a technology that is still non-standard and in early stages.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Ever heard of a real life engine that could run indefinitively without being refueled? Only electric engines can do that, as long as there is "power on the line".
Having to refuel your engines either on a track in a Diesel servicing facility or at a coaling station adds a little relaism, doesn´t it?
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhy not use a hybrid system, similar to a normal automotive charging circuit. A small battery, able to run the loco for 5 minutes, constantly charged by the track power, except when there is no track power. In this case the "battery" is the battery, and the track power is the "alternator". Control it by direct radio.
That is exactly the way my friend Danny built his outdoor railroad.
The track has live sections that charge batteries in the locomotives. The locmotives are radio controlled with R/C airplane controllers. Track sections with turnouts, reverse loops, and his turntables are all isolated (dead).
He built this system over ten years ago.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I just hope my dead rail loco can be charged from the rails while it is running around on the rails so I don't have to stop the fun.
Also how many charges would a battery pack get before that would need to be replaced?
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Dead rail keeps coming up as "the next big thing" but I'll believe it when I see it catch on and become standardized. Otherwise, talk is cheap and dead rail is an anomaly.
If the dead rail engines were designed so that they could run on DC/DCC track as if the voltage was not there, the tranisition could be rather quick compared to most other new systems. Having the wheels totally isolated from any current draw would be all it would take to do that.
A person could then get started with a single controller and 1 engine, not rewiring the layout or obsoleting their collection of engines.
If the engines were independent of any current draw from the track, they would somehow need to be switchable to track voltage to recharge on a "charging siding". I would think that should be a simple task for the electronic minds that have created our complex DCC systems in use today.
Paul3Brakie,You, yourself, said back in 2004 that DCC would be replaced in 5 years by something better.
Paul, True enough.. I also said a small ISL like a 1' x10' doesn't need DCC. Well that was before sound..I now fully believe a DCC/Sound equipt locomotive needs to be operated with a DCC system even if a ISL is only 1'x 8' in order to get all the sounds and to use the CV settings.
It seems dead rail might be next super duper control systen..
We shall see.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Deane Johnson @Lazers -"I don't believe that Dead Rail will eliminate cleaning. Crud will always build-up on Track & Wheels. Paul" That's an interesting point in that I've repeatedly heard that much of the "crude" is made from tiny arcing between the wheels and the rail. I don't know the validity of that theory, but if true, Dead Rail would tend to eliminate much of it I would think.
@Lazers -"I don't believe that Dead Rail will eliminate cleaning. Crud will always build-up on Track & Wheels. Paul"
That's an interesting point in that I've repeatedly heard that much of the "crude" is made from tiny arcing between the wheels and the rail. I don't know the validity of that theory, but if true, Dead Rail would tend to eliminate much of it I would think.
A dead rail equipped engine does not need any track to run, albeit "unguided", so it does not matter, whether the track is "clean" or "dirty".
Tinplate Toddler,Yes, battery powered tools have many important uses in our daily lives.Yes, there are batteries small enough to fit into very small spaces. Yes, batteries can even fit into HO scale switchers.Now let's look at the negatives:Tiny electric motors that pull almost no current spinning screw shafts to move extremely lightweight plastic articulated attachments to move small amounts of sand have almost no relationship to HO locomotive motors other than the fact that both are motors and use electricity. HO locos can easily weigh a pound; HO trains of decent length can weigh several pounds or more (some brass passenger cars weigh a pound each). This type of service doesn't lend itself well to small, tiny motors that are powered by small, tiny batteries like these HO construction vehicles.There's no way a battery powered loco is going to automatically go to a charging spot unless you're talking about total layout automation. The percentage of such layouts are extremely low, and the ones that are not used for public display (Minature Wonderland, Chicago's MSI, etc.) are orders of magnitude smaller than that. And BTW, full layout automation requires block detection. How do you do that with deadrail? If the point of deadrail is to never clean your wheels or track again, but then you need to keep them clean to make the block detection work, then what's the point?Just because something is possible doesn't make it practical or popular. Every multi-story home could have an elevator; some homes already do. But not every homeowner is going to install one.BTW, why didn't you answer the rest of my questions? How much money are these "standard" LiPo batteries? How many charge cycles can they go through? Can they be fully discharged, left idle for years, and then be recharged fully without issue? Will they be available unchanged for the next 20+ years? How long will they last? Brakie,You, yourself, said back in 2004 that DCC would be replaced in 5 years by something better. IRONROOSTER,It's just not going to happen. Batteries will not become an NMRA Standard because there's no way anyone in our hobby is going to be able to create and manufacture their own batteries. The expense of setting up a battery factory is immense. And say the NMRA comes up with a battery standard with size, connections, and power output as a Standard. Who's going to make it to those standards? Compare that to DCC. Digitrax, TCS, Soundtraxx, NCE...all make their own decoders right here in the USA and conform to NMRA Standards. Sure, they use foreign made components (diodes, resistors, etc.) but the PCB's are etched, the components are assembled, and the pieces soldered together right here. That will not happen with batteries. TCS decoders are literally made in the basement of the owner's house. I'm thinking that's going to be impossible with a battery factory.The reason why DCC became a part of our hobby (vs. Dynatrol) is that it became an NMRA Standard. What made it popular was the sub-$20 decoder. I don't think either one of those things is going to happen with a battery in HO scale.
One thing is for sure, the more complex these locomotives might become with all these features, built in cameras, built in dead rail options, smoke, sound, escaping steam, complex lighting, etc, the harder they become for anyone to work on. Be it the user or a repair tech.
Turning them into disposable electronic crap like cell phones and computers, and driving the hobby farther and farther into the "RTR only" mode.
That's not really a hobby I'm interested in.......
@Lazers: I was thinking that would be the logical procedure. That's basically how cars like the Telsa get it done. I don't think that sort of approach can ever go away.
It could probably be done with a charging system from the rails that were DCC or DC, but I think that would be a serious mistake. The design should be totally operational with "dead rail" and only be parked on the "charging siding" for the purpose of recharging.
How about control via Wi-Fi to make control interfaces less costly.
I'm sold. Let's begin.
@Eric White: Maybe Kalmbach should take on the challenge of pushing dead rail. You've already got a big industry voice.
Deane Johnson Great discussion guys! I'm wondering, how do the batteries get charged if the engine is operating on dead rail?
Great discussion guys! I'm wondering, how do the batteries get charged if the engine is operating on dead rail?
Deane, I think you need 'live, isolated' tracks, say at an Engine Terminal, a bit like a DCC test track.
I don't believe that Dead Rail will eliminate cleaning. Crud will always build-up on Track & Wheels. Paul
"It's the South Shore Line, Jim - but not as we know it".
Eric WhiteThe problem with dead rail as a factroy option is the large number of variables. Theres no NMRA standard for it, so manufacturers don't want to take a chance on inventing Betamax instead of VHS.
I agree that's the key.
Once that happens I think it will grow quite rapidly. Because a key feature of dead rail is you can run it on your existing layout without converting anything. So whether you're running dc, dcc, ac, dcs, 3 rail, etc. you can also run a dead rail engine.
Paul
The problem with dead rail as a factroy option is the large number of variables. Theres no NMRA standard for it, so manufacturers don't want to take a chance on inventing Betamax instead of VHS. The market is too small for that kind of risk.
But, I think eventually someone will work out a standard for it. Battery powered locomotives can be done, as we've shown in the magazine, and at a very high level. (June 2016) Command control has been around since the early '60s when it was a clunky system offered by General Electric (Aztrak, anyone?). Batteries will continue to get smaller and more power dense. Once there are enought options for batteries to be sourced for HO models, that will make manufacturers more comfortable with offering the models.
One thing I think would be a neat offering is onboard cameras in every DCC-equipped locomotive. That little camera in your phone would probably fit into most any HO scale cab. Combine that with Bluetooth or WiFi control and a screen on your throttle (or use your phone) and you'd have a realistic view of your layout without a clunky camera car ruining the bird's eye view.
Eric
OldEngineman Dead rail? A dream for a few dabblers. I won't live to see it adapted on any significant scale for HO. Wouldn't want it anyway. How's it gonna work out for N scale?
Dead rail?
A dream for a few dabblers. I won't live to see it adapted on any significant scale for HO. Wouldn't want it anyway.
How's it gonna work out for N scale?
They said DCC or sound would never be possible in N Scale.. You can buy DCC or DCC/Sound equipt locomotives in N today..
Paul3 Tinplate Toddler,Ok, good. How much money are these "standard" LiPo batteries? How big are they? Will they fit in a switcher? How many charge cycles can they go through? Can they be fully discharged, left idle for years, and then be recharged fully without issue? Will they be available unchanged for the next 20+ years? How long will they last? And since "none" of my points are valid, I guess they'll never die on the mainline, either.NittanyLion,I didn't say "explode", I said "self destruct" and "catch fire". Slight difference, perhaps, but I'm not trying to be an alarmist, just saying that battery technology has issues even with high end consumer products like cell phones made by billion dollar companies.
Tinplate Toddler,Ok, good. How much money are these "standard" LiPo batteries? How big are they? Will they fit in a switcher? How many charge cycles can they go through? Can they be fully discharged, left idle for years, and then be recharged fully without issue? Will they be available unchanged for the next 20+ years? How long will they last? And since "none" of my points are valid, I guess they'll never die on the mainline, either.NittanyLion,I didn't say "explode", I said "self destruct" and "catch fire". Slight difference, perhaps, but I'm not trying to be an alarmist, just saying that battery technology has issues even with high end consumer products like cell phones made by billion dollar companies.
Sorry, but you are completely missing my point! Batterie powered tools and devices have long become a part of our daily lives and have proven their durability. There are batteries small enough to fit into tiny Minitrains 0-4-0 engines or even Busch light railway engines running on 6.5mm track and HO scale cars and trucks.
Putting them into a HO SG switcher shouldn´t be a problem at all. As to the point of dying on the mainline - why not install a circuit monitoring the battery and have the engine automatically go to a charging spot when the battery starts to run low? These things are already being done.
Just because something is beyond your imagination does not mean it won´t be possible or even already exists.
Electric regenerative braking for dead rail locomotives.
"Battery can explode" is....sort of a red herring. Yes, that can happen, but you can also receive a lethal shock from a DCC base station. Both have pretty slim odds.
azrail You would think Athearn, which is owned by RC car seller Horizon, would offer radio-controlled trains.
You would think Athearn, which is owned by RC car seller Horizon, would offer radio-controlled trains.
I suspect as soon as its perfected then they will invest in dead rail. I also suspect a push by the model magazines Dead Rail will become popular.
Paul, I am sorry to rain on your parade, but none of the points you mention are valid points in today´s world. Dead rail R/C controlled is available for engines down to N scale or even HOf, that´s HO scale running on 6.5mm rail. The batteries used are standard LiPo batteries, which have a long life.
Batteries are a well accepted form of energy in all our "devices", why shouldn´t they play the same role in model trains?