oldline1What do you all consider REASONABLE? Maybe I'm crazy? oldline1
I've bought and traded for decades and here's my personal thought.
A reasonable offer would target the price or trade value I really want.
As a example..I'm asking $100.00 for a used DCC/Sound Atlas/Kato GP7. A offer of $75.00 would be in the ball park since my asking price is inflated so I can haggle the price in order to get the price I really want,in this case that $75.00 offer.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
In the ideal world it would be nice if we were all inteligent shoppers. Just for grins I looked at a specific Intermountain sound equiped SD40. That exact model number sells for $190 at a big internet retailer and there are at least two for sale on Ebay, one for $180 and one for $300.
Neither has a make offer, but in this example, the price is easily researched. The $300 guy must be hoping someone who has had too much to drink stumbles on his ad late at night and and just has to have that loco. Won't that buyer feel stupid in the morning.
In the case of stuff that is not longer made, knowing it's worth is much harder.
Everyone wants a deal but not all of us enjoy car shopping. Everyone also has a budget. If $700 is all I have to spend, I don't particularly want you to send me a nasty email nor do I want to get caught up in the auction frenzy of bidding (against myself perhaps) and chasing the price to the point of having buyers remorse.
OTOH if my budget is $1,000 I can play the game, how cheap can I get it? Without having buyers remorse, no matter what I pay.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
IMO used stuff, from an individual rather than a dealer, is reasonably priced at 60% of full retail. From the buyers point of view, there is more risk associated with buying used and the risk is compounded when buying from other than a dealer who is known for standing behind what they sell.
I don't mean to imply that individual sellers are not reputable, just that a buyer has no real way of knowing.
And... even rare model railroad equipment falls under the old rule that anything is only worth what someone will pay for it. In other words, it is the buyers that determine value, not sellers.
As a buyer, I would offer you what it's worth to me. If that's less than you are willing to take, don't get insulted, just reject the offer and move on.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
I tend to use make a offer listing on something I like. But when I do the seller isn't willing to go down $10-20 on a locomotive, instead he wants me pay $5 bucks less. That's not a good price for a new unused locomotive from 5-7 years ago.
I believe your brass point is reasonable for what you're willing to sell it.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
I think it's like beauty; it's all in the eyes of the beholder. Or, if you prefer, like real estate. An appraiser will assess a property and compare it to the listings of others like it. Is the market trending upward for that kind of property locally? If so, and it's a hot market, you might be able to list it for about 4% higher. If the market is cooling, then less...especially if you'd like to move it along.
I figure a person loses nothing by lowballing. The lower the offer, the more likely the seller is to be offended, so it's a touchy operation. The seller isn't obliged to accept, or even to counter. It's a dance. Sometimes a person gets lucky.
You could respond with, "Thank-you for your offer. I'm only willing to sell at a reasonable price, which I feel I have listed. I am prepared to negotiate, but not to take a bath. I hope you understand. I am willing to consider another offer from you, but only if it is substantially closer to the price I have listed for the item."
You have remained civil, composed, in control, apparently unflappable or slow to ire, and made clear the terms under which you will consider further discussion with him. It places the ball very much in a descending arc on his side of the net.
oldline1I list as BIN and MAO for $750 I don't think is out of line. Yes, we all want one for free but I find it unacceptable to receive an offer of $475.
I don't know exactly how it works, but I'm assuming that the BIN price would be the minimum you would accept to part with the item. Why even put in the MAO statement?
If you are saying that you would consider an amount less than the BIN amount, then why don't you put the item up for a regular auction with a minimum bid being that new number?
One angle on this may be the uniqueness of the item as well as whether it is higher priced, the latter in particular. Higher priced, unique real estate I hear typically takes longer to sell (at a price with a willing buyer and willing seller). That of course relates to a lower number of potential buyers, who have both the budget and the desire to buy at a partcular time (within the sales window).
As such, one would expect that it would typically take the higher priced / more unique items longer to achieve the buyer to come along that is willing to pay a "reasonable" price. So one can auction and take what one gets, or offer at a price (and/or current best offer) but decide to accept the current market or to delay and market again later.
I would think a latest version Genesis new in box Big Boy would tend to sell faster at a reasonable price than a great condition, best ever made, Big Boy which would sell at a considerably higher price, with fewer serious potential buyers.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
When I buy and see a BIN best offer listing, I assume the seller will take no less than 85% of his BIN price, if that. a 475 offer on a 750 BIN is unreasonable.
However, I think your BIN price is probably a bit high just based on only the info you gave. If I can get one at the local for 800-850, then buying one off the internet from a private seller should cost me no more than 700, possibly even 650. Still, 475 would be too low, IMO.
What it cost you is not relvant to the price. The buyer wont pay you your cost unless the internet market price supports it.
- Douglas
I get best prices when I sell starting the item at 99 cents and running the auction for 10 days. Occasionally I get a beating, but I almost always get more than what my minimum would have been.
.
Sometimes my items get bid higher than someone else had the same item listed with a Buy It Now.
Bidding frenzies are awesome.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
oldline1 My question is........how do YOU define REASONABLE? I have several brass auctions going on feebay right now with the Buy It Now or Make An Offer selected. In the auctions I state I will accept reasonable offers. Most folks don't take advantage of BIN or MAO in the first place in spite of what feebay says about them. I'm not trying to get rich off the auction and I'm already retired so that isn't my goal here. All I want is to recoup my investment and cover the costs of shipping, feebay fees and PayPal. I don't think that's an unreasonable goal. SO..........an engine that's rather hard to come by and expensive to begin with, factory painted, MIB that sells in the $800-850 area at shops IF it comes up I list as BIN and MAO for $750 I don't think is out of line. Yes, we all want one for free but I find it unacceptable to receive an offer of $475. I want to sell my stuff and it isn't Free To A Good Home! What do you all consider REASONABLE? Maybe I'm crazy? oldline1
My question is........how do YOU define REASONABLE? I have several brass auctions going on feebay right now with the Buy It Now or Make An Offer selected. In the auctions I state I will accept reasonable offers. Most folks don't take advantage of BIN or MAO in the first place in spite of what feebay says about them.
I'm not trying to get rich off the auction and I'm already retired so that isn't my goal here. All I want is to recoup my investment and cover the costs of shipping, feebay fees and PayPal. I don't think that's an unreasonable goal.
SO..........an engine that's rather hard to come by and expensive to begin with, factory painted, MIB that sells in the $800-850 area at shops IF it comes up I list as BIN and MAO for $750 I don't think is out of line. Yes, we all want one for free but I find it unacceptable to receive an offer of $475. I want to sell my stuff and it isn't Free To A Good Home!
What do you all consider REASONABLE? Maybe I'm crazy?
oldline1
Rich
Alton Junction
The problem now is getting every cent since the final value fee is 9% if u have a store, then a FVF on shipping, then 3% of paypal. You are in 15% or so. The more pricey the item, the more you lose! But you will never sell it on Craigslist, Etsy, Trainz, etc. If your price is ballpark, it will sell. I have sold alot of trains this year and really if you go by past sales on ebay or brasstrains.com, you will get bites. Just be sure to accurately describe any defects or issues and you will be golden!
I have a PFM 2-8-8-2 that has been on now for a month and has no offers, so I know I need to come down, or wait until the fall near Xmas when money flows better. THis is vacation season and money is going towards vacations and not collectibles.
Good luck with your sale! I have so many I need to sell (so I can keep what I want) as I bought a mondo estatee of brass and DCC/Sound plastics. A lot of work but fun.
Best buyers are overseas, so open your auction up worldwide. Can tell u that my best prices have come from UK, Japan, Taiwan, etc.. No issues with their worldwide shipping program. Again, clear description so no misunderstandings.
Anyone need some brass or DCC/Sound primarily N&W, let me know!
maxman I don't know exactly how it works, but I'm assuming that the BIN price would be the minimum you would accept to part with the item. Why even put in the MAO statement? If you are saying that you would consider an amount less than the BIN amount, then why don't you put the item up for a regular auction with a minimum bid being that new number?
A Buy It Now listing, without a Best Offer option, requires an interested buyer to pay the Buy It Now price to purchase the item. That would represent the seller's minimum price. If a Buy it Now listing includes a Best Offer option, it indicates that the Buy It Now price is negotiable.
Hi,
I've been a buyer/seller on Ebay since 2000. I prefer auctions when selling, with a starting price of the absolute minimum I would accept. When I buy, I prefer BIN, but have sure worked an awful lot of auctions too.
IMO, there are a few primary factors to be realized when selling on Ebay.
- Your presentation (title, description, pics) opens the door to buyers. If you do a good honest job of that, you will likely get more attention.
- Ebay is an open to all marketplace. Your item is valued only at what a buyer is willing to pay for it. It may be something near and dear to you, but if no one wants it or is willing to pay what you want, it will remain yours.
- Trains and many other hobby items are just not worth (to a buyer) what we would like to think they are. There are exceptions (be it brass or postwar Lionel or Flyer), those being pristine "in the box w/packaging" items. Everything else will sell - if it sells - at a percentage of what we would want.
- Timing is everything. I've had items on auction one week with no bids, and after relisting them two weeks later I've had "bidding wars" to get them. The only advice I can give for selling trains is to do so from say October thru March, which is traditionally the time when folks "play with trains".
I've tracked my auctions for the last 10-12 years, and typically net 73 to 75 percent of selling price. Yes, Ebay and Paypal charge a fee, and of course packaging materials cost money. That is business, and if you want that market exposure, that is the price to enter.
If I had to sell all my stuff locally over the years, well I can tell you I would be out of the hobby for sure.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I usually list my ebay items with a starting bid of the minimum I will take, if past sales support the price. Usually my shipping cost is a flat $4.50 for 1st class mail if packed the item weighs less than 13 ounce, and that includes a new box. On the rare occasions I use Buy It Now, I usually ask for a best offer. You can set a range, "accept at least and reject less than." I suggest the OP should use those filters. That way he won't get upset by a low ball offer, because he won't see it.
I pretty much only use Buy It Now because I hate losing an auction at the last second and not being allowed to raise my bid like a real auction. As far as Make Offer goes. Some people only want to accept your offer if it is only $5 below their Buy It Now Price. They seem to think their stuff is worth more than it is. I used to work for a jeweler who sold estate jewelry. They would accept any offer as long as they covered their cost and hopefully made a little profit. Their standard answer to any offer over their cost was, “Can you come up X dollars?” If the person refused to come up then if the jeweler made a profit then they sold it. Better to make a little money than none. It was all about cash flow. Of course most sellers on eBay are not sharks. But you need to be the expert and know the value of what you are selling. Ebay makes that easy for you. Simply search for an item you want to appraise then check the little box in the left column which says ‘Sold Items’. The search results will show you only items that have recently sold and how much they sold for. Use the results to find an average. That is the value of your item. The value of your item is a reasonable offer. Recently I made an offer on a set of old time passenger cars but the seller only wanted to come down $5 from his Buy It Now price which was far to high. I said, “no thank you and explained what their value was. He got mad but I noticed that his cars never sold.
As far as opening bid: Always set your opening bid at the price you are willing to sell it for. It only takes one bid to make a sale.
Ask for $50 under Brasstrains.com price?
oldline1I find it unacceptable to receive an offer of $475. I want to sell my stuff and it isn't Free To A Good Home! What do you all consider REASONABLE?
I don't see why it's unacceptable nor why it would be unreasonable. Maybe you'll take that and both of you will be happy. $475 is nowhere near free. The guy could be a dealer wanting to build some retail stock and that could be more than most would offer, but he'd have a hard time making a profit at retail if he offered you more.
I may be wrong, but isn't there a function you can set on MAO that will reject an offer if below a minimum you set? In that case, the potential buyer is encouraged try again or not depending on what they want to do.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
oldline1All I want is to recoup my investment and cover the costs of shipping, feebay fees and PayPal. I don't think that's an unreasonable goal.
So you're saying you want someone to not only pay what you paid (including fees and taxes at the time), but also your shipping, eBay fees, and PayPal fees - in total more than you paid. Frankly, I think that is unreasonable. Unless you're a business buying at wholesale and selling at retail, or a collector who invests in collectibles in the hopes of their value going up, there is no real reason to expect to recoup your costs. Most things sell for less than their original price on the used market - usually much less.
Frankly, I know people get upset at offers they consider low not only for trains, but also houses, cars, etc. But why? You can just turn it down.
Two comments:
1. Relist the items in late October - much better chance of selling them for a good price - the summer is the dead zone for sellers of train items (great time to buy though)
2. Make sure your BIN price reflects current selling prices for the models in question. Ebay is not the local trainshop and brass is a very finicky and somewhat volatile market - it is possible prices may have dropped since you bought the item...
I've been there - I feel your pain - items never seem to sell for what you think they should or for what you paid for them...
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
In addition to my comment about checking Brasstrains.com price and price matching. I would submit to you that you will probably not recoupe your investment. Brass does not always gain value, and is not really a good investment anymore. I have no idea what you are trying to sell, but if there is a diecast or plastic mass produced model available that is comparable to your item, the demand will be low. This will depress the price people are willing to pay. If your road is not a popular one, it maybe hard to find a buyer who is willing to pay your price.
Lots of good points from everyone, so I will not repeat any of what has been said.
One point many people seem to miss, or wrongly assume is this:
No matter your price or method of sale (auction, BIN, etc), there simply may not be anyone looking for that item at the time you are offering it.
And low ball offers may well be speculators who are willing to patiently resell your item at a higher price.
For a number of years I sold some custom GRAVELY tractor parts on Ebay, almost always with BIN listings which I kept active all the time. Sometimes sales were brisk, other times slow........don't assume that even in this big world of the internet there is always someone ready and able who wants your item, if your price is fair, hold your price and be patient.
Sheldon
Lone Wolf and Santa Fe wrote:
I pretty much only use Buy It Now because I hate losing an auction at the last second and not being allowed to raise my bid like a real auction.
You obviously don't understand how ebay works. Just bid $5.00 MORE than you are willing to pay, and you wont be disappointed by getting out bid at the last second.
Ebay auction prices are determined by the SECOND HIGHEST bidder. If you place a bid of the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM you are willing to pay, you will either win the item, or would have been out bid any way regardless of how many times you can add to your bid, someone else just wanted it more than YOU.
the GREAT thing about ebay is you CAN BID a very high bid, but NOT necessarily PAY that much. In your bidding scenario if you bid $100 for a $10 boxcar, you are going to PAY $100 for that $10 boxcar. with ebay, you set your maximum bid for a $500 locomotive at $1000, and the SECOND HIGHEST bidder only bids $175, You will only pay $176 for that $500 locomotive, even though you BID $1000.
The ONLY reason to complain about getting "Sniped" on ebay, is because YOU DIDN'T place your TRUE Maximum bid. I truly get TIRED of people making this same GROUNDLESS complaint about ebay all the time, there is nothing to complain about, IF you UNDERSTAND how the system works, quit your bitchin.
And for those immature ones that have to refer to it as "Feebay", "Fleabay" "Evilbay" etc. etc. etc. if it is so BAD, DON'T USE IT, ohh, but you're NOT going to find anywhere else that you are likely to NET OUT any more than you will on ebay, or you would use the other sales venue.
I personally have mainly bought, but have sold a few items on ebay, and it is an EXCELLENT place to find many hard to find items, and also for a hobbiest to sell items they are no longer using, to fund purchases of items that will be more useful. My own Positive experinces so far out weigh the negative o nes by such a large margin it is not worth worrying about, I have had at least as many or more disappointing purchases at trainshows than I have had with ebay.
YMMV,
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Doug, great post.
RobertSchuknecht Doug, great post.
Agree!
Next to Amazon, Ebay is my "go-to" place for hard to find or long out-of-production items. In the twelve years and 1500 successful transactions I've had at Ebay I have no regrets or "horror stories" to relate to.
Sure, there's always one of those listings for that "rare, scarce, one-of-a-kind" item— but you have to do your own research to evaluate the true value of the item being offered and use your own common sense before committing any money in the game.
Ed
It is a good post, and let me add some comments of my own.
The notion of what I call "silent maximums" escapes many casual users of eBay.
You can often spot a bidder placing a silent maximum even though the amount is not apparent. Let's say that the higher bidder at some point in the auction is identified as e***8. This is the method eBay uses to conceal identities. e***8 is the high bidder at $102.50 for an item. All of a sudden, another bid is indicated and it is e***8 bidding against himself. But the high bid still shows at $102.50. What e***8 has done is place a "silent maximum", say $125.00. Now, you decide to bid $110.00 to seize the lead, but e***8 remains the high bidder at $112.50, the next incremental bid at that price point. Given your determination to win the auction, you bid $150.00. You are now the high bidder at $127.50. Perhaps a bit confusing until you become more familiar with the bidding process.
Let's also remember that eBay is really not feebay or fleabay or evilbay or whatever. Where else can you find a nationwide, a worldwide audience, of interested buyers? And the 10% eBay fee is a pittance in the greater scheme of things. The PayPal fee of 3% is even more favorable because your payment is instant as a seller and you are protected as a buyer.
richhotrain It is a good post, and let me add some comments of my own. The notion of what I call "silent maximums" escapes many casual users of eBay. You can often spot a bidder placing a silent maximum even though the amount is not apparent. Let's say that the higher bidder at some point in the auction is identified as e***8. This is the method eBay uses to conceal identities. e***8 is the high bidder at $102.50 for an item. All of a sudden, another bid is indicated and it is e***8 bidding against himself. But the high bid still shows at $102.50. What e***8 has done is place a "silent maximum", say $125.00. Now, you decide to bid $110.00 to seize the lead, but e***8 remains the high bidder at $112.50, the next incremental bid at that price point. Given your determination to win the auction, you bid $150.00. You are now the high bidder at $127.50. Perhaps a bit confusing until you become more familiar with the bidding process. Let's also remember that eBay is really not feebay or fleabay or evilbay or whatever. Where else can you find a nationwide, a worldwide audience, of interested buyers? And the 10% eBay fee is a pittance in the greater scheme of things. The PayPal fee of 3% is even more favorable because your payment is instant as a seller and you are protected as a buyer. Rich
But Rich, those who think Ebay fees are too high remember when they were much lower......kind of like Photobucket.........
I have bought and sold on Ebay for years, I agree it works perfectly and the fees are very reasonable for what they provide.
BUT, I have been in business for myself most of my life, so I guess I understand the value of their services.....
richhotrainThe notion of what I call "silent maximums" escapes many casual users of eBay. You can often spot a bidder placing a silent maximum even though the amount is not apparent. Let's say that the higher bidder at some point in the auction is identified as e***8. This is the method eBay uses to conceal identities. e***8 is the high bidder at $102.50 for an item. All of a sudden, another bid is indicated and it is e***8 bidding against himself. But the high bid still shows at $102.50. What e***8 has done is place a "silent maximum", say $125.00. Now, you decide to bid $110.00 to seize the lead, but e***8 remains the high bidder at $112.50, the next incremental bid at that price point. Given your determination to win the auction, you bid $150.00. You are now the high bidder at $127.50. Perhaps a bit confusing until you become more familiar with the bidding process.
So there you have it. Add in the secret reserve and who knows what else and what you have is a tricky system that the average person should just avoid.
Years ago I was at a live auction and when an item didn't get a high enough bid the auctioneer announced they were not going to sell it at that price and pulled it. I immediately got up and left - never went back.
Likewise I don't even look at eBay anymore.
First off I need to say I have never participated in eBay whatsoever, as buyer or seller. I've also never seen a single episode of The Simpsons, but that's another matter . . .
Are the auctions on eBay final absolute auctions? That is, is the highest bid the winning bid whatever it is? And is the seller required to delivered the goods after bidding is over no matter the outcome? What if the winning bid is a lot lower than the seller wanted or estimated? Can the seller refuse to deliver (and still maintain a relationship with eBay)?
In the OP's situation . . . was a minimum starting bid posted? Have bids starting coming in, and what range are they coming in at? $1.00? $50.00? $475.00?
As stated elsewhere, $475 is not a ridiculous offer. A little low maybe, but not particularly insulting. I'd be curious to see what other activity has occured regarding this particular item.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But Rich, those who think Ebay fees are too high remember when they were much lower......kind of like Photobucket......... I have bought and sold on Ebay for years, I agree it works perfectly and the fees are very reasonable for what they provide. BUT, I have been in business for myself most of my life, so I guess I understand the value of their services..... Sheldon
IRONROOSTER richhotrain The notion of what I call "silent maximums" escapes many casual users of eBay. You can often spot a bidder placing a silent maximum even though the amount is not apparent. Let's say that the higher bidder at some point in the auction is identified as e***8. This is the method eBay uses to conceal identities. e***8 is the high bidder at $102.50 for an item. All of a sudden, another bid is indicated and it is e***8 bidding against himself. But the high bid still shows at $102.50. What e***8 has done is place a "silent maximum", say $125.00. Now, you decide to bid $110.00 to seize the lead, but e***8 remains the high bidder at $112.50, the next incremental bid at that price point. Given your determination to win the auction, you bid $150.00. You are now the high bidder at $127.50. Perhaps a bit confusing until you become more familiar with the bidding process. So there you have it. Add in the secret reserve and who knows what else and what you have is a tricky system that the average person should just avoid. Years ago I was at a live auction and when an item didn't get a high enough bid the auctioneer announced they were not going to sell it at that price and pulled it. I immediately got up and left - never went back. Likewise I don't even look at eBay anymore. Paul
richhotrain The notion of what I call "silent maximums" escapes many casual users of eBay. You can often spot a bidder placing a silent maximum even though the amount is not apparent. Let's say that the higher bidder at some point in the auction is identified as e***8. This is the method eBay uses to conceal identities. e***8 is the high bidder at $102.50 for an item. All of a sudden, another bid is indicated and it is e***8 bidding against himself. But the high bid still shows at $102.50. What e***8 has done is place a "silent maximum", say $125.00. Now, you decide to bid $110.00 to seize the lead, but e***8 remains the high bidder at $112.50, the next incremental bid at that price point. Given your determination to win the auction, you bid $150.00. You are now the high bidder at $127.50. Perhaps a bit confusing until you become more familiar with the bidding process.
Paul, why is it "tricky"?
It's simple, as explained above.
The seller lists an item at a starting bid of $20.
You are willing to pay $100, you bid $100.
If no one else bids you get the item for $20.
If someone else bids $80, you still win at $85.
If someone else bids $110 they win unless you increase your bid in time.
You can incease your maximum at any time, but what you pay if you win is still controlled by the next higher bidder.
You see the $110 bid and decide to increase your bid to $200
No one else bids, you win at $115.
A reserve simply rasies the starting point but is not published, so in the example above a $50 reserve would have rasied your opening price to $50 rather than $20, after that the process is the same.
IRONROOSTER So there you have it. Add in the secret reserve and who knows what else and what you have is a tricky system that the average person should just avoid. Years ago I was at a live auction and when an item didn't get a high enough bid the auctioneer announced they were not going to sell it at that price and pulled it. I immediately got up and left - never went back. Likewise I don't even look at eBay anymore. Paul
I say this not in defense of eBay but rather because it is the fairest way to conduct a remote auction when all the bidders (or their proxies) are not in the same room. It is a highly efficient and, for thay matter, fair way to conduct an Internet auction of this type.
It is not a "tricky" system if potential bidders take the time to read and understand the rules. I have been both a buyer and a seller and I can honestly say that eBay auctions are effective, fair, and rewarding to both sides.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL IRONROOSTER richhotrain The notion of what I call "silent maximums" escapes many casual users of eBay. You can often spot a bidder placing a silent maximum even though the amount is not apparent. Let's say that the higher bidder at some point in the auction is identified as e***8. This is the method eBay uses to conceal identities. e***8 is the high bidder at $102.50 for an item. All of a sudden, another bid is indicated and it is e***8 bidding against himself. But the high bid still shows at $102.50. What e***8 has done is place a "silent maximum", say $125.00. Now, you decide to bid $110.00 to seize the lead, but e***8 remains the high bidder at $112.50, the next incremental bid at that price point. Given your determination to win the auction, you bid $150.00. You are now the high bidder at $127.50. Perhaps a bit confusing until you become more familiar with the bidding process. So there you have it. Add in the secret reserve and who knows what else and what you have is a tricky system that the average person should just avoid. Years ago I was at a live auction and when an item didn't get a high enough bid the auctioneer announced they were not going to sell it at that price and pulled it. I immediately got up and left - never went back. Likewise I don't even look at eBay anymore. Paul Paul, why is it "tricky"? It's simple, as explained above. The seller lists an item at a starting bid of $20. You are willing to pay $100, you bid $100. If no one else bids you get the item for $20. If someone else bids $80, you still win at $85. If someone else bids $110 they win unless you increase your bid in time. You can incease your maximum at any time, but what you pay if you win is still controlled by the next higher bidder. You see the $110 bid and decide to increase your bid to $200 No one else bids, you win at $115. A reserve simply rasies the starting point but is not published, so in the example above a $50 reserve would have rasied your opening price to $50 rather than $20, after that the process is the same. Sheldon
A smart way to approach an eBay auction is to review the bids already made and assume that the current high bidder has actually placed a bid higher than that posted - - - my so-called "silent reserve".
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL But Rich, those who think Ebay fees are too high remember when they were much lower......kind of like Photobucket......... I have bought and sold on Ebay for years, I agree it works perfectly and the fees are very reasonable for what they provide. BUT, I have been in business for myself most of my life, so I guess I understand the value of their services..... Sheldon Let me say this in reply. If you are looking to sell some used model railroading stuff, or used golf clubs as I often do, or tropical fish supplies as I have done in the past, or "collectibles" like Department 56 ceramic houses we have sold off over the years, a combined fee of 13% for eBay and PayPal seems quite reasonable, at least to me, and to many, many others, I suspect. At some point, i suppose these fees could become unduly high. Each seller has to make his or her own decision about when the fees become confiscatory. Until then, show me a better way to sell an item than eBay. Rich
Let me say this in reply. If you are looking to sell some used model railroading stuff, or used golf clubs as I often do, or tropical fish supplies as I have done in the past, or "collectibles" like Department 56 ceramic houses we have sold off over the years, a combined fee of 13% for eBay and PayPal seems quite reasonable, at least to me, and to many, many others, I suspect. At some point, i suppose these fees could become unduly high. Each seller has to make his or her own decision about when the fees become confiscatory. Until then, show me a better way to sell an item than eBay.
Even if you are trying to make real money on Ebay, no one can provide for themselves an infrastructure like Ebay and PayPal for 13% - all businesses have overhead, that's why hobby shops need to make 30% or 40% gross margin, 13% is a deal.
When I bid on Ebay, I always "set it and forget it", that is I bid the highest I am willing to pay and seldom watch the bidding at the close - either I win or I don't.
And I buy and sell a lot with "Buy It Now".
My tractor parts sales were almost always "Buy It Now", and never with "Make Offer".
Thousands of dollars every year for about five years, just scaled it back some last year, seemed to have run its course for a while. Only have a few items up now.
ROBERT PETRICK Are the auctions on eBay final absolute auctions? That is, is the highest bid the winning bid whatever it is? And is the seller required to delivered the goods after bidding is over no matter the outcome? What if the winning bid is a lot lower than the seller wanted or estimated? Can the seller refuse to deliver (and still maintain a relationship with eBay)?
eBay does provide for specific, limited exceptions whereby a party to an auction can renege, and those exceptions are clearly posted.
As a buyer, I have never failed to receive the item and as described.
As a seller, I only once had a buyer renege and that was some clown from overseas who claimed last minute buyer's remorse. I didn't care about that because I had explicitly ruled out overseas sales. What hurt there is that none of the serious bidders were willing to step up and complete the transaction as they were entitled to do because they probably suspected a shill trying to force up the bidding price.
I use to bid by sitting my bid at the price I was willing to pay and let the chips fall where they may. I notice 99% of the time I was out bid in the last few seconds even though my bid was reasonable and at or slightly above the going use prices.
The funny part around two months later I bought the same road name car at $9.99 BIN and that was at my old high bid.
I seldom bid any more.
Robert Petrick wrote:
Yes ebay auctions are SUPPOSED to be Final and Binding, but I have seen listings where I Highly suspected the seller was not Happy with the winning bid, and the item was suddenly at auction end "No Longer Available". There ARE some retail stores that list on ebay items on their shelves for greater market coverage, and could sell an item before it is bid on/BIN option purchased. in the past ebay was much stricter about once an item has recieved a bid it MUST be available to deliver, but they don't seem to enforce this rule as stringently as in the past.
I have had items "No Longer Available" after winning with a low bid, then a week or two later, see the same item relisted, a message to ebay didn't have any results. I have also recieved "Second Chance" offers where the winning bidder reneged on the deal. Unfortunately, the second chance is at your maximum bid, NOT the next increment above the bidder below you, as it should be, so I have accepted some second chances and declined others.
As far as the Minimum reserve option, I wish that ebay would discontinue that option, and just have the sellers set their minimum opening bid openly, the end result is the same, but you know whether you even need to bid at all or not, but the sellers want the activity. I KNOW how the minimum reserve works and ACCEPT it, so I just live with it.
If a buyer(or seller) properly researches and UNDERSTANDS how ebay works, there is nothing Secretive, or Confusing about it, I personally LIKE the way it is organized.
I understand the "set it, and Forget it" method many use, and I will do that as close to auction end as I can, if I wont be able to bid at the end. If I expect to be available at auction end I will put in my True Maximum bid mere seconds before auction end, and either get the item at a price I am comfortable with, or it sold for more than it was worth to me. "Sniping" can keep the price lower by not having someone like LW&SF Nickle and Diming it up. If you are WILLING to PAY $100, put in your bid for $100. Ebay auctions have a SET END TIME, whoever bids the highest at that time WINS, that is how it should be in MY Opinion, again I LIKE being able to bid my MAXIMUM, without necessarially being REQUIRED to pay my maximum bid. If I am willing to PAY $100, but the next highest bidder is only willing to pay$75, I win it for $76. In reality this IS how a "REAL" auction works, except that you don't disclose your True maximum bid to the auctioneer ahead of time, it is much more efficient, and the end is the same, the winner wins by the next higher increment than the second highest bidder.
Dash.com an ebay competitor does extend the auction by, I believe 10 minutes after each new bid, near auction end, resulting in long delays of the auction ending for what often ends up being relatively minor price increases, I feel ebay's system is much Superior, put in your max bid and at XX:XX time the highest bidder wins, DONE.
Ebay has such a wide variety of products it is unbelievable, probably 90+% of my purchases have been train related, but just last night, I bought a New chainsaw on a BIN listing.
The Husqvarna 3120XP is Husky's Biggest, Badddest saw they build, 119cc 8HP chainsaw, normal MSRP is $1799.95 without bar and chain, I had been looking at the 395XP (94cc) with 36" bar at $1279.95. An ebay seller had the 3120 at $1399. + $89 shipping, the seller had a 100% feedback rating with 3104 sales, the kind of seller I look for, then PayPal(That HORRIBLE organization) had their PPCredit at 0% for 24 months, that did it, I pulled the trigger, $1,488 for 2 years INTREST FREE. I have been thinking about getting an Alaskan Mill, for making tables, the 3120 is THE saw for that, so maybe a bit large for my normal firewood cutting (we do cut larger than most logs here on Mt. Hood, often 28+") my new saw will handle firewood and milling with ease. Unlike model railroding where buyers EXPECT Large discounts, the Quality power tool market, is very tight, most stores AT MSRP, and even online sellers VERY close to it, and shipping will often put online sellers at, near or sometimes over MSRP. I prefer to buy local when I can, and within a reasonable amount over online prices, but at $311.95 off, I couldn't pass up that deal, and shipped direct to my door, I LOVE ebay, but then, I understand HOW it Works, and how to use it, ebay and even on line aren't always the BEST options, but they are GREAT options to HAVE.
You make my case for me.
Thanks
richhotrain IRONROOSTER So there you have it. Add in the secret reserve and who knows what else and what you have is a tricky system that the average person should just avoid. Years ago I was at a live auction and when an item didn't get a high enough bid the auctioneer announced they were not going to sell it at that price and pulled it. I immediately got up and left - never went back. Likewise I don't even look at eBay anymore. Paul I used the word "silent', not "secret", because no one but you as a bidder knows the maximum amount that you are willing to pay unless and until someone outbids you. I say this not in defense of eBay but rather because it is the fairest way to conduct a remote auction when all the bidders (or their proxies) are not in the same room. It is a highly efficient and, for thay matter, fair way to conduct an Internet auction of this type. It is not a "tricky" system if potential bidders take the time to read and understand the rules. I have been both a buyer and a seller and I can honestly say that eBay auctions are effective, fair, and rewarding to both sides. Rich
I used the word "silent', not "secret", because no one but you as a bidder knows the maximum amount that you are willing to pay unless and until someone outbids you.
I used secret in reference to the reserve price the seller sets. It's secret because you the bidder don't know what it is. Frankly, the auction should start at that minimum price. I personally think the secret reserve is less than honest.
IRONROOSTER ATLANTIC CENTRAL IRONROOSTER richhotrain The notion of what I call "silent maximums" escapes many casual users of eBay. You can often spot a bidder placing a silent maximum even though the amount is not apparent. Let's say that the higher bidder at some point in the auction is identified as e***8. This is the method eBay uses to conceal identities. e***8 is the high bidder at $102.50 for an item. All of a sudden, another bid is indicated and it is e***8 bidding against himself. But the high bid still shows at $102.50. What e***8 has done is place a "silent maximum", say $125.00. Now, you decide to bid $110.00 to seize the lead, but e***8 remains the high bidder at $112.50, the next incremental bid at that price point. Given your determination to win the auction, you bid $150.00. You are now the high bidder at $127.50. Perhaps a bit confusing until you become more familiar with the bidding process. So there you have it. Add in the secret reserve and who knows what else and what you have is a tricky system that the average person should just avoid. Years ago I was at a live auction and when an item didn't get a high enough bid the auctioneer announced they were not going to sell it at that price and pulled it. I immediately got up and left - never went back. Likewise I don't even look at eBay anymore. Paul Paul, why is it "tricky"? It's simple, as explained above. The seller lists an item at a starting bid of $20. You are willing to pay $100, you bid $100. If no one else bids you get the item for $20. If someone else bids $80, you still win at $85. If someone else bids $110 they win unless you increase your bid in time. You can incease your maximum at any time, but what you pay if you win is still controlled by the next higher bidder. You see the $110 bid and decide to increase your bid to $200 No one else bids, you win at $115. A reserve simply rasies the starting point but is not published, so in the example above a $50 reserve would have rasied your opening price to $50 rather than $20, after that the process is the same. Sheldon You make my case for me. Thanks Paul
Paul, it really isn't all that complicated or confusing, and it does favor the buyer to a degree. The buyer can decide that the item is worth $100 to THEM, and set their bid at $100, if the second highest bidder only feels it is worth $75 to THEM, then the buyer who values it at $100, will only PAY $76(I think that $1 is the incremental bid, below $100)so even though you BID $100, you only PAY $76, what is there for a buyer to complain about with THAT?
It really isn't any different than a "LIVE, or REAL" auction in that each bidder decides what the item is worth to THEM, and the final price is whatever the incremental increase is above the SECOND HIGHEST bidders highest bid, the same in a REAL or Live auction, except with ebay each bidder has disclosed their maximum bid to the auctioneer ahead of closing, but the winning bid is still set by the second highest bid, no effective difference, just in the method of getting there.
As far as the "Reserve Price" as I said earlier, I don't care for it, and AGREE, that the seller SHOULD just set their opening bid at their "Reserve" price, but there is nothing "dishonest" about it, it is a common thing in the auction business. One of the reasons for using a "Hidden Reserve Price" is because it generates activity, it has been shown that the more bids placed, the higher the final price. The seller wants to generate activity/interest in the item. Bidders after having placed a bid will often be determined to "Win" and will often get into bidding wars, this is why many sellers start even expensive items at 99 cents,to get bidders interested and involved, in most cases it works. Two identical items, one with a .99 starting bid, and another with a $50 starting bid, 99% of the time, the listing with the .99 cent starting bid will sell for a significantly HIGHER Final price than the identical item with the higher starting bid, of course the seller takes a risk using that method, but statistically, it nets the seller a higher final price. ebay doesn't want to end the reserve option, because they charge the seller a fee, for seting a reserve price, and some sellers wont sell without a reserve, and don't seem to understand that a minimum opening bid price is essentially the same thing.
End of the day, ebay is still THE BEST venue out there for buying and selling, Ever participate in a Stout Auction? I believe that their BUYER'S PREMIUM is about 18% charged to the BUYER, all of ebays fees, which are LOWER, are born by the SELLER, I am still trying to figure out WHY there is so much HATE for ebay, especially by buyers, evidently many just aren't smart enough to think it all the way through.
Especially in 3 Rail O Gauge, ebay has caused the prices of many "Hard to Find" items to come down. With ebay, a buyer can now search a WORLDWIDE site for items, and now many "HTF" items are NOT Hard to Find any more, causing the supply to be greater, and the demand hasn't increased as much as the supply, which is great for the buyers, but not as bad for the sellers as it would seem, yes the values HAVE gone DOWN, but it is now much easier to sell an item, if a buyer isn't able to FIND the item, it wont sell at ANY price.
This maybe somewhat of the unanswerable question. I cannot define to you what is reasonable. I can, however, define to me what is reasonable and what is not. Expecting someone else to cover your costs for a hobby item (that you chose to purchase) including add ons such as taxes, shipping ebay fees, etc., is not reasonable. I am sorry if this sounds harsh. That is not my intention. I am only trying to be open and honest about this. If I go to the car dealer on Saturday and purchase a new car and then sell it on Monday, I am not going to recoup my money and whatever I paid for gas. Once again, I apologize if this is upsetting to you. Talking about the features and benefits of the locomotive and explaining why you think your stated price is fair is to me a reasonable approach to getting the most from your buyer(s). Telling them that you expect them to guarantee a profit would not seem reasonable to me. Just my thoughts. Good luck with your auction.
Old Fat Robert
As to the original question of what is REASONABLE, in MY OPINION, yes $750 is UNREASONABLE to expect if it is $800-850, is that New MSRP?
For ME, I wont pay much over 65% of MSRP for a USED item with NO WARRANTY, if it is NOT being sold by an AUTHORIZED DEALER NIB, it IS USED, even if never removed from the box(so the seller says, ANY seller not just You personally) If I am taking the risk of possible repairs without a full warranty, for ME, around 65% is my comfort zone, if that is less than a seller will accept, then no deal, it's a TOY and my life will go on without life altering effects.
so if it is an $850 locomotive then to ME, about $510 would be MY max, so I don't think that an offer of $475 is INSULTINGLY LOW, you always have the option of giving a counter offer, which is likely what the buyer expected, or you can Politely decline. There is NO Reason to take offense, or reply in a Rude manner in MY OPINION. Offering $75 on an $850 locomotive, I wouldn't fault you for simply not replying.
What an item is worth to you, and what it is worth to someone else may not be the same number, but unless it is a TRULY insulting offer of less than %25 of value, there is no reason to take offense, and usually there is NO reason for a Rude reply, rather than just not replying at all.
Of course those are just MY OPINIONS, YMMV
challenger3980As far as the "Reserve Price" as I said earlier, I don't care for it, and AGREE, that the seller SHOULD just set their opening bid at their "Reserve" price, but there is nothing "dishonest" about it, it is a common thing in the auction business. One of the reasons for using a "Hidden Reserve Price" is because it generates activity, it has been shown that the more bids placed, the higher the final price. The seller wants to generate activity/interest in the item. Bidders after having placed a bid will often be determined to "Win" and will often get into bidding wars, this is why many sellers start even expensive items at 99 cents,to get bidders interested and involved, in most cases it works. Two identical items, one with a .99 starting bid, and another with a $50 starting bid, 99% of the time, the listing with the .99 cent starting bid will sell for a significantly HIGHER Final price than the identical item with the higher starting bid,
As you describe it, it is a tactic for getting people to pay more for an item than they otherwise would. The idea being that the desire to "win" outweighs their common sense. Instead of making a rational decision on the price to pay, they pay more than they normally would because of the emotion. If getting people to do this strikes you as an honest way to do business, then we'll just have to disagree on what honesty in business is.
So again, I think most folks ought to just avoid eBay.
Really? How else would you propose it should work? Seems really fair to me. I have made money selling, I have found great deals buying.
Being a long term Ebayer, I've been following this thread with interest. My "disclaimer" is that I am very much pro Ebay (and PayPal).....
That said, Ebay and PayPal are businesses - with the goal of making a profit for their owners/investors. And this comes down to two primary points......
- They are free to charge whatever they like. It is their business and they are doing the same thing any of us would do if it was our business.
- If you have a problem with Ebay, go elsewhere to buy or sell. There are a number of other avenues, so if Ebay ruffles your feathers, take your trade somewhere else.
Have to add to Sheldon's earlier comment. You won't sell anything, no matter the price, if there is no buyer out there that sees your item and bids on it.
Some times there will be a plethora of potential buyers/bidders, and other times there will be none. It is a crapshoot for sure, but if you start your item at the minimum you will accept, you will only be out the listing fees.
Paul, there is nothing "Dishonest" about it, if people let their emotion over rule their common sense, well that is their own doing. a Buyer should decide what their maximum price is for an item, and not exceed that. again nothing secretive or confusing (or dishonest) about that, all the #'s are right there on the screen, each buyer is (or SHOULD be) responsible for deterimining what is a fair price for an item for them, and sticking to it, and that is TRUE for ALL aspects of Life not just ebay.
It is no different than the 99 cent game on most consumer items, $12.99 is a LOT LESS than $13.00, in many peoples minds, heck gas stations even take that to the TENTH of a PENNY on fuel prices, that has been accepted for MANY, MANY years, just the way it is, a FACT of LIFE.
Maybe not dishonest, but have you ever bought a New or late model used car?
The Salesperson will RARELY discuss the ACTUAL PRICE of the vehicle with you. First they find out how much you want to PAY PER MONTH on the car payment. then they will try to help you find a vehicle, Surprisingly it is usually about $50/month MORE than you Hope to pay, but "Hey, You can Manage an extra $50/month for the car that YOU REALLY WANT, Right?" The salespeople will figure the price of the vehicle Backwards from what they can get you to pay each month, and how many monthes long a term they can talk you into.
A Smart car buyer, will pick the vehicle that best suits their needs, and discuss the PRICE of the Vehicle, THEN discuss interest rates, monthly payments and length of term, BASED on the AGREED PRICE of the vehicle, but many fall into that trap, because the average person probably buys a new vehicle every 7-10 years, so it is not something they are very familiar with doing.
Also if you are trading in a used vehicle, don't even bring that into the negotiating (the salesperson will usually ask about that early) until AFTER the price of the new vehicle has been agreed to, THEN negotiate the trade in value of your used vehicle, there all kinds of ways for the salespeople to work the #'s in their favor, it is up to the buyer, to keep control of the negotiating process, but the salespeople do this for a living and are VERY GOOD at steering the negotiating their way. It takes a very Savy buyer to get the best deal possible buying a vehicle, it makes ebay look like a second grade class.
I don't think that MOST people should avoid ebay, it is an EXCELLENT source for finding a wide variety of items, often at very good prices. A buyer SHOULD learn about how the system works, but again that is true for most facets of Life, not just ebay, the more educated you are about any subject, the better the choices you can make on that subject.
Maybe ebay isn't a good option for you, if you're not comfortable with how the system works, but for MANY, MANY of us it is an Excellent resource, for many things.
Really, I shouldn't be trying to teach/convince you and others about the advantages of ebay, I SHOULD be DISHONEST, and falsely AGREE with you about how HORRIBLE ebay (and PayPal, I hate that 0% 24 month $1488 loan) are, the fewer people bidding on ebay the better for me, less likely to increase the price on something that I might bid on, so Please remember just how Horrible, Confusing and Dishonest ebay and PayPal are, and DON'T go there or Bid on anything,
Thank You,
challenger3980You obviously don't understand how ebay works. Just bid $5.00 MORE than you are willing to pay, and you wont be disappointed by getting out bid at the last second.
I’m pretty sure that I understand exactly how eBay works. I have been buying and selling on it for almost 20 years. And I have 100% feedback. You don’t understand that people can change their mind. If I think and item is worth $100 and then I see that someone else thinks that it is worth $110 who the heck are you to say that I can’t change my mind and think that the item is now worth $120 to me??? The true value of an item is whatever someone is willing to pay. Maybe I want it more than I wanted it before once I saw that someone else wanted it. Seeing other people wanting an item often makes people want it more. Jump on the bandwagon. Everyone is buying it… you should too. Over 1 million served. EBay is a silent auction. Silent auctions suck! They suck for the seller because it stops bidding wars where the price can skyrocket benefiting both the seller and eBay. It sucks for buyers who don’t get to buy the item they wanted after waiting a week. It’s bad customer service to not make your buyers happy and it is bad for shareholders because it is not maximizing profits. And of course it is bad for the sellers who don’t get the maximum price that their item might be worth. I auctioned off jewelry on television for several years and our customers were always given a chance to increase their bids. Nobody ever got snipped and all of our customers where happy because of it. I’m sure that some of them paid more than they originally thought they were willing to pay but changed their mind as the auction went along. As far as fees, when I sell items on our website we don’t have to pay the eBay fee which is a lot higher than the cost of our web hosting. We only pay the Paypal fee which can be cheaper than having your own merchant account since there is no monthly minimum. Ebay is not always the best place to buy either. I often see prices higher on eBay than on other websites for new items. Walthers and Train World are two model train stores that come to mind.
It is not dishonests to lowball the starting bid. The buyers freely decide what they are willing to pay. Buyer Beware. Don't let your desire to win overcome your common sense.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
You don’t understand that people can change their mind. If I think and item is worth $100 and then I see that someone else thinks that it is worth $110 who the heck are you to say that I can’t change my mind and think that the item is now worth $120 to me??? The true value of an item is whatever someone is willing to pay. Maybe I want it more than I wanted it before once I saw that someone else wanted it. Seeing other people wanting an item often makes people want it more. Jump on the bandwagon. Everyone is buying it… you should too. Over 1 million served. EBay is a silent auction. Silent auctions suck! They suck for the seller because it stops bidding wars where the price can skyrocket benefiting both the seller and eBay. It sucks for buyers who don’t get to buy the item they wanted after waiting a week. It’s bad customer service to not make your buyers happy and it is bad for shareholders because it is not maximizing profits. And of course it is bad for the sellers who don’t get the maximum price that their item might be worth.
I never said that you couldn't change your mind, but your post just reaffirms what Paul and I have been discussing, a buyer should determine what the true maximum for an item is for them, and stick to it. But as I told Paul, there is nothing dishonest about it from the sellers participation, you are free to adjust your bid (Upwards) at any time before the auction ends. If you want it more because Johnny bid more than you, that is so Second Grade. Determine what it is TRULY WORTH TO YOU and bid accordingly, if you enter your TRUE MAXIMUM bid then, you wont be disappointed if you don't win the item, because it sold for more than you (Thought you) wanted to pay for it. It you were disappointed that you didn't Win, then next time Bid more than you think you want to pay.
You claim to understand how it works, but still complain if you don't win, you KNOW exactly win the auction will end, to the SECOND, BID THE MOST that you are WILLING to Pay, if you don't win, someone else just wanted it more than you did, as you should know, you can almost GAURANTEE that you will win any auction by simply bidding a ridiculously high amount, you probably wont pay that amount, but you better be prepared to pay what the winning bid is, there is no reason not to win any auction that you bid on, it is simply a matter of placing a high enough bid.
I NEVER said that ebay is ALWAYS the BEST place to buy anything, but it IS an EXCELLENT resource for buying MANY things for MANY users.
Sorry to make this personal, it wasn't meant to be, but seriously GROW UP, and get out of Mommy's basement, there really isn't anything sold on ebay that justifies as much concern as many seem to find, you're talking about TOY TRAINS for crying out loud. And YES, even SCALE MODEL TRAINS are TOYS, even if some can't accept that, They are NOT Life essential Items Like Food, Water and Shelter, they are not tools, the only things that they produce are Smiles and Frustration in ever varying amounts, THEY ARE TOYS. Even if they are EXPENSIVE well detailed scale models of a particular protoytpe, they are TOYS, though some wont accept that.
Lone Wolf and Santa Fe Ebay is not always the best place to buy either. I often see prices higher on eBay than on other websites for new items. Walthers and Train World are two model train stores that come to mind.
Agree. Before buying an item on EBAY, I search the web to see if I can get it elswhere at lower costs. Don't forget to take into account shipping and taxes.
I mainly buy used books on EBAY. I've actually bought a Car and Locomotive Cyclopedia from a "Goodwill Store" for a total cost of less than $10.
richhotrainThe notion of what I call "silent maximums" escapes many casual users of eBay.
When someone auto-outbids me on what I really want, I have become VERY GOOD at sneak-bidding up to HIS maximum bid. If you stop me from getting what I want... I will make you pay for it. Spiteful losers like me are something to consider when putting in your "silent maximum" amount.
Worst case scenario if I guess wrong: I get something I really want for a little more than I wanted to pay, no problem!
Think about that before bidding against "king64ramone" (I know eBay hides my name now). I think I usually show up as "i***n(2024)".
SeeYou190 richhotrain The notion of what I call "silent maximums" escapes many casual users of eBay. . When someone auto-outbids me on what I really want, I have become VERY GOOD at sneak-bidding up to HIS maximum bid. If you stop me from getting what I want... I will make you pay for it. Spiteful losers like me are something to consider when putting in your "silent maximum" amount. . Worst case scenario if I guess wrong: I get something I really want for a little more than I wanted to pay, no problem! . Think about that before bidding against "king64ramone" (I know eBay hides my name now). I think I usually show up as "i***n(2024)". . -Kevin .
richhotrain The notion of what I call "silent maximums" escapes many casual users of eBay.
Why do you take it personally?
This is a perfect example of WHY, I determine what my Maximum bid is, then hit submit, 3 seconds before the auction end. If someone outbids me at that point, OH WELL, I bid as much as I was comfortable paying for it, someone else wanted it more than I did, it has never been a matter of Life or Death when I have bid on an ebay auction. Yep there have been times that I wish that I had won, a few that I wished I had bid a bit higher, but I know how the system works, a nd I can live with that, some can't figure it out, I wish that getting outbid on ebay was something that rated high enough in my life to worry about, but unfortunately, I have enough more important concerns in my life, that ebay isn't on that list.
This is not an accurate way to describe the process and is fueling the arguments of those who are looking for some sneaky conspiracy.
It is a proxy bid. Think of sending a friend to an auction to buy an item for you. You tell him he is authorized to pay up to $200. If the others (or their proxies) stop bidding before $200, you get the item. If they bid more, you don't. It's as simple as that.
carl425 richhotrain The notion of what I call "silent maximums" escapes many casual users of eBay. This is not an accurate way to describe the process and is fueling the arguments of those who are looking for some sneaky conspiracy. It is a proxy bid. Think of sending a friend to an auction to buy an item for you. You tell him he is authorized to pay up to $200. If the others (or their proxies) stop bidding before $200, you get the item. If they bid more, you don't. It's as simple as that.
Give that Man a Cigar!!!
IRONROOSTER So again, I think most folks ought to just avoid eBay. Paul
Without eBay, what would I do with all my old golf clubs, aquariums, unwanted HO scale items, Department 56 ceramic houses? Put an ad in my local newspaper?
Don't blame me, Carl, for this thread. The term "silent maxium" is one that I consider for myself. It is my silent maximum.
But, I do agree with you that it is a form of proxy bidding in the absence of bidders actually being in the same physical room. I believe that I used that term in a previous reply.
As far as fueling the arguments of those who are looking for some sneaky conspiracy, I cannot help them cope with their problem. Potential bidders simply need to know and understand how the eBay bidding system works. It is all clearly spelled out in the written rules on the eBay website.
SeeYou190 richhotrain The notion of what I call "silent maximums" escapes many casual users of eBay.. When someone auto-outbids me on what I really want, I have become VERY GOOD at sneak-bidding up to HIS maximum bid. If you stop me from getting what I want... I will make you pay for it. Spiteful losers like me are something to consider when putting in your "silent maximum" amount.. Worst case scenario if I guess wrong: I get something I really want for a little more than I wanted to pay, no problem!. Think about that before bidding against "king64ramone" (I know eBay hides my name now). I think I usually show up as "i***n(2024)".. -Kevin
richhotrain The notion of what I call "silent maximums" escapes many casual users of eBay..
When someone auto-outbids me on what I really want, I have become VERY GOOD at sneak-bidding up to HIS maximum bid. If you stop me from getting what I want... I will make you pay for it. Spiteful losers like me are something to consider when putting in your "silent maximum" amount..
Worst case scenario if I guess wrong: I get something I really want for a little more than I wanted to pay, no problem!.
Think about that before bidding against "king64ramone" (I know eBay hides my name now). I think I usually show up as "i***n(2024)"..
Think about what you are saying and what you are doing.
You place a bid for $100.00 and another bidder outbids you at $102.50 (the next incremental bid). Now, you didn't want to pay more than $100.00, so now you are ticked at the anonymous guy who outbid you. So much so that in your spite, you bid $105.00, but his silent maximum keeps him in the lead at $107.50. Now you are rabid with spite so you bid $125.00 but, again, you are outbid at $127.50. You now come to your senses and realize that you do not want to pay $130.00 for the item, so you let your anonymous enemy win at $127.50. You showed him. He coulda had the item at $102.50, but you made him pay $127.50. Think he cares? Think he even knows of your diabolical plan? How much time do you spend in this endeavor?
Rich,
You just detailed the excitement and the glory and the agony of defeat contained in the auction sale format. To some of us, its a large charge, and frankly somewhat addictive. Nice job!
IRONROOSTER challenger3980 As far as the "Reserve Price" as I said earlier, I don't care for it, and AGREE, that the seller SHOULD just set their opening bid at their "Reserve" price, but there is nothing "dishonest" about it, it is a common thing in the auction business. One of the reasons for using a "Hidden Reserve Price" is because it generates activity, it has been shown that the more bids placed, the higher the final price. The seller wants to generate activity/interest in the item. Bidders after having placed a bid will often be determined to "Win" and will often get into bidding wars, this is why many sellers start even expensive items at 99 cents,to get bidders interested and involved, in most cases it works. Two identical items, one with a .99 starting bid, and another with a $50 starting bid, 99% of the time, the listing with the .99 cent starting bid will sell for a significantly HIGHER Final price than the identical item with the higher starting bid, As you describe it, it is a tactic for getting people to pay more for an item than they otherwise would. The idea being that the desire to "win" outweighs their common sense. Instead of making a rational decision on the price to pay, they pay more than they normally would because of the emotion. If getting people to do this strikes you as an honest way to do business, then we'll just have to disagree on what honesty in business is. So again, I think most folks ought to just avoid eBay. Paul
challenger3980 As far as the "Reserve Price" as I said earlier, I don't care for it, and AGREE, that the seller SHOULD just set their opening bid at their "Reserve" price, but there is nothing "dishonest" about it, it is a common thing in the auction business. One of the reasons for using a "Hidden Reserve Price" is because it generates activity, it has been shown that the more bids placed, the higher the final price. The seller wants to generate activity/interest in the item. Bidders after having placed a bid will often be determined to "Win" and will often get into bidding wars, this is why many sellers start even expensive items at 99 cents,to get bidders interested and involved, in most cases it works. Two identical items, one with a .99 starting bid, and another with a $50 starting bid, 99% of the time, the listing with the .99 cent starting bid will sell for a significantly HIGHER Final price than the identical item with the higher starting bid,
Wow, what a cynical view of the world, and of business in general. You make sound like someone dreamed up the idea of an auction just to cheat people.
By your thinking, all auctions are immoral.
Sorry, but as a seller or a bidder at an auction I am not responsable for the choices others make with their money. Lack of self control their problem. But who are you to decide for others how much they can afford or should pay for something?
Did you ever consider that the person who bids "too much" in your eyes may have so much money it does not matter to them?
I can only set values for myself, I never pay more than I can afford, and I don't need or want a baby sitter...........
It all boils down to a willing seller and a willing buyer. In another life I was a real estate broker. When I would present an offer that was lower than asking price on one of my listings, one of my arguments, someone is buying your house for $XXXX, the buyer or you Mister seller. The OP wouldn't sell his locomotive for $475, so in essence he bought it for the $750 price he refused to lower.
challenger3980Why do you take it personally?
richhotrainKevin, really? Tsk, tsk. Think about what you are saying and what you are doing.
I love eBay. If I want something new off the shelf, I go to any one of a dozen friendly local brick-n-mortar hobby shops I frequent. If all else fails I just order direct from Walthers. I never use "Buy It Now" for somewthing I can get off the shelf.
If I want something old, used, out of production, and difficult to find... I go to eBay, and I go to win. If that very-hard-to-find Proto 2000 undecorated Mather Boxcar shows up, I am going to win it, or whoever wants it more is REALLY going to pay for taking away what should be mine.
This happens in auctions of all kinds. When someone takes the high bid on that handmade 27 drawer antique literature file from an estate auction, I bid him up and make him respect me. Next auction he might back off earlier when he sees me in the mix. Yes, that was personal, yes I am still bitter about losing that one. However, the regulars at estate auctions in Naples, FL know who I am and know I am serious about items that I desire.
I wish eBay still displayed the full bidder IDs so "king64ramone" could get the respect he (I) once had. The items I want are so speciallized, that it seemed I was often up against the same 20-30 bidders.
Bidding wars are good for everyone, especially the seller, except for the poor fellow who drew my attention.
I still lose way more than I win, but I have fun. Eventually I will get everything I want.
ATLANTIC CENTRALYou make sound like someone dreamed up the idea of an auction just to cheat people. By your thinking, all auctions are immoral.
I am talking about eBay and other auctions that work the way eBay does. Not all auctions (and I have been to them) work like eBay. They are straight forward about what they are doing.
As for business in general (since you brought it up) There are companies that don't have ethical standards of behavior and there are those that do. I prefer to do business with those that do. If that's being cynical, so be it.
Reserve pricing can take place in all types of auctions and auction houses. Internet or ebay is no different. Its to protect the seller from any particular day that sees such low volume that market value isn't reached.
Market value always assumes certain conditions are present, and a lack of visibility by interested parties on any given day could be defined as "distressed" conditions. With reserve pricing, the seller protects himself from having to sell the product under distressed conditions so he can offer it again under normal market conditions.
I suppose its possible to set a reserve price so high as to only try to capture the frenzy of a bidding war, but I think protecting a seller from selling under low visibility conditions is the prevailing reason.
A lot of people simply set reserve pricing too high, thinking the market value of their item is higher than it is.
IRONROOSTER ATLANTIC CENTRAL You make sound like someone dreamed up the idea of an auction just to cheat people. By your thinking, all auctions are immoral. I am talking about eBay and other auctions that work the way eBay does. Not all auctions (and I have been to them) work like eBay. They are straight forward about what they are doing. As for business in general (since you brought it up) There are companies that don't have ethical standards of behavior and there are those that do. I prefer to do business with those that do. If that's being cynical, so be it. Paul
ATLANTIC CENTRAL You make sound like someone dreamed up the idea of an auction just to cheat people. By your thinking, all auctions are immoral.
Paul, but we cannot "go to" Ebay, it is by default a proxy bid process. I'm surely not going to be on line at a specific time to be in a live auction. Some may like sitting there as the clock counts down but I have better things to do. I like the fact that I can set my max bid, let the auction happen, and if I win great. I am virtually never "online" at the time I win or lose.
And, I buy (and sell) a lot on Ebay with "Buy it Now", it works great.
SeeYou190Bidding wars are good for everyone, especially the seller, except for the poor fellow who drew my attention.
I enjoy watching a bidding war..Seen a very common BB CN 40' boxcar go for IIRC around $25.00.. BB kits was still plentiful when that auction took place at the fraction of the cost.
How, exactly, does the buy it now work (besides the obvious)?
Does an item with a BIN actually start out at some lower price, say $1.99, and the seller hope the bids go up?
If the item does not reach the BIN price, does the seller have to let the item go at a lower price when the auction ends?
What happens if a bidding war starts? Does whoever gets to the BIN price automatically win the auction, or is it possible for an item to exceed the BIN amount?
maxman How, exactly, does the buy it now work (besides the obvious)? Does an item with a BIN actually start out at some lower price, say $1.99, and the seller hope the bids go up? If the item does not reach the BIN price, does the seller have to let the item go at a lower price when the auction ends? What happens if a bidding war starts? Does whoever gets to the BIN price automatically win the auction, or is it possible for an item to exceed the BIN amount?
maxmanIf the item does not reach the BIN price, does the seller have to let the item go at a lower price when the auction ends?
As soon as a bid is placed on the item the Buy It Now option is no longer available and the listing continues until the ending time. IF no other bidder comes forward you get the item at the minimum bid price.
Frequently I see items sell for a considerable amount over what the Buy It Now price was. I use the Buy It Now sometimes if it is an item that I don't want to risk missing out on.
Regards, Ed
MOST "Buy it Now" listings do not have the additional auction or best offer features, they are simply "buy it now at this price", click on it, pay with paypal, deal done.
Here is an example of one of mine:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/162608795433?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649
Lots of trains on Ebay are listed this way as well - no auction, no offers, no waiting.......
So we have two BIN means that there is a single price and no bidding. And one if someone makes a bid the BIN is no longer.
Any other "bids" on an answer? I'm starting to agree with whomever it was that said that EBay bidding was too complicated.
maxmanAny other "bids" on an answer? I'm starting to agree with whomever it was that said that EBay bidding was too complicated.
How about just using Google to find the answer:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/how-buy-bin.html
Here is selling, which actually explains buying a bit better.
https://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/selling-basics.html
Both are a good read to understand how it works.
If in doubt, go to the reference document. <--At least I learned something from 9 years in the Navy.
maxman So we have two BIN means that there is a single price and no bidding. And one if someone makes a bid the BIN is no longer. Any other "bids" on an answer? I'm starting to agree with whomever it was that said that EBay bidding was too complicated.
Ebay has several selling methods:
Auction - with or without a reserve price, 1, 3, 5, 7 days or 10 days
Buy it Now - just like a store, one price, no bidding, no waiting, no negotiating, click on it, pay for it, it comes in the mail.
Buy it Now w/best offer - buy it now, OR make an offer, the seller can accept or reject your offer.
Auction with Buy it Now option - until someone makes a bid, you can buy it right way at a buy it now price set by the seller. Once someone bids less than the buy it now price, it turns into a regular auction sale.
There you have it, four basic selling formats, different ways to buy/sell different types of products.
I sell new tractor parts, accessories and information books, all with Buy it Now - just like a store.
And lots of the model train vendors sell with buy it now - I have bought lots of stuff that way, as well as auctions.
Years back got two, new in the box Spectrum 2-6-6-2 locos, $75.00 each.
maxman I'm starting to agree with whomever it was that said that EBay bidding was too complicated.
I'm starting to agree with whomever it was that said that EBay bidding was too complicated.
Okay, I'm starting to understand. But what about this listing, http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-BN-Bicentennial-SD40-2-Locomotive-1876-w-Sound-Athearn-98370-vmf121-/142413577749?hash=item212882be15:g:qXIAAOSwjRpZVZo-,
where it says 11 are watching. If it is a BIN, exactly what/why are they watching?
maxman If it is a BIN, exactly what/why are they watching?
I sometimes have dozens of items in my "Watched List" and you can make any number of customized watched categories.
There may be several reasons to watch an item. You simply want to track an item to see if it sells and at what price or sometimes the seller will re-list it at a lower price if it doesn't sell in the first round. (You will see a notification in your watched listing if a seller re-lists an item).
There may be several, or even dozens of identical items and you want to keep track of which one has the best overall cost— as in some sellers offering free shipping or discounted price, another reason that I sometimes keep items in my "watched" list is that Ebay will make suggestions based on my watched item and occasionally one of these suggested items is something I am interested in.
For instance, I may be watching a PRR brass decapod. Every few days Ebay may send me an email suggesting similar items, maybe other PRR steam, other brass locomotives. I may take a look or I may choose to ignore it. Similar suggested items are often listed on "My Ebay" page which I may choose to explore.
I often click on the link to "View sellers Other Items" since there may be other items by the same seller that may interest me.
Saved Searches are another way to scour the thousands of listings and find items I may be interested in. Once you learn some of the finer points of refining a search you can even have Ebay send you notifications by email if a particular item has been listed.
I sometimes look at ended auctions. There is a menu on the left of the page where Ebay lists the results of past ended auctions for about the last year or so. With this option I can see if an item sold and if so, at what cost. These are simply tools to help me evaluate future purchases or get a feel for what is available.
maxman it says 11 are watching. If it is a BIN, exactly what/why are they watching?
People are checking to see the amount of intrrest in an item. They may have one they are considering selling. If an item they're watcging doesn't sell, it's usually because it's priced too high, the S&H isn't right, or no one is interested.
The time an item takes to sell at BIN can also be instructive.
maxman Okay, I'm starting to understand. But what about this listing, http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-BN-Bicentennial-SD40-2-Locomotive-1876-w-Sound-Athearn-98370-vmf121-/142413577749?hash=item212882be15:g:qXIAAOSwjRpZVZo-, where it says 11 are watching. If it is a BIN, exactly what/why are they watching?
In the case of the eBay listing that you cited, there are 3 of that locomotive available and 11 Watchers.
As a Seller, I pay little attention to Watchers. They rarely are buyers. Once you click on a listing as a Watcher, it is easy to track the listing in My eBay, a personal directory to all of your eBay activity. That is the main reason to become a Watcher.
So, as far as a BIN listing is concerned, there would seem to be little reason to watch it since you can immediately buy it. But, as Ed pointed out, there are other reasons to watch a BIN listing. One reason is to track the eventual sale in order to determine a price for a similar listing. Sellers often do this. Sometimes, it is a technique that buyers use to determine a reasonable price for their own purchases.
As far as an auction is concerned, as a Seller, I don't get too excited about the number of Watchers. I am more interested in the number of Views. How many potential bidders am I reaching with my listing?
Whether you are a Seller or a Buyer, you can gather some important information by looking at the Completed Listings and Sold Listings for identical or similar items. Completed Listings is a complete list of recently ended auctions and BINs whether the item sold or not. Sold Listings is a complete list of recently ended auctions and BINs in which the listed item has sold.
Dear OP-
I was away on brief vacation and have not read all replies, but at the last Tim
onium show (Howard was away) the few brass dealers who were there made ridiculous lowball offers to me for some brass models, offers similar to the one you received on Ebay. Apparently these clowns assume I am stupid and ignorant of basic facts about ho brass.
I walked out with my models, stuck to my guns, and easily netted more than a thousand dollars higher than what the train show dealers were offering after all ebay and paypal fees were paid.
Also, I receive lowball offers on Ebay, and sometimes I respond politely, and sometimes I do not even respond.
I say stick to your guns. Good brass eventually brings what it is worth, but the photos need to be clear and sharp, and sometimes I have to relist them. It is good if you can to sell under some dealer prices a little, as you described, but you do not need to give it away, either.
Best regards--
John
PRR8259 Dear OP- I was away on brief vacation and have not read all replies, but at the last Ti monium show (Howard was away) the few brass dealers who were there made ridiculous lowball offers to me for some brass models, offers similar to the one you received on Ebay. Apparently these clowns assume I am stupid and ignorant of basic facts about ho brass. I walked out with my models, stuck to my guns, and easily netted more than a thousand dollars higher than what the train show dealers were offering after all ebay and paypal fees were paid. Also, I receive lowball offers on Ebay, and sometimes I respond politely, and sometimes I do not even respond. I say stick to your guns. Good brass eventually brings what it is worth, but the photos need to be clear and sharp, and sometimes I have to relist them. It is good if you can to sell under some dealer prices a little, as you described, but you do not need to give it away, either. Best regards-- John
I was away on brief vacation and have not read all replies, but at the last Ti
monium show (Howard was away) the few brass dealers who were there made ridiculous lowball offers to me for some brass models, offers similar to the one you received on Ebay. Apparently these clowns assume I am stupid and ignorant of basic facts about ho brass.
I will agree with John, and repeat what I said earlier.
In ANY specialty market, it is wrong to assume that there is a waiting buying for what you are selling every minute of any given day. Sometimes you just have to put an item out there and give the right person long enough to find it.
I strongly disagree with the idea that you can fully gauge the value of an item based on how fast it sells at a given price. That thinking assumes there are always more buyers than the supply at any given moment.
And if no one is looking for that item, no price is low enough to make it sell.......
People enter and leave various markets all the time, in small specialty markets you have to have some patience, and some confidence in your own knowledge of the value.
Well, I have been impressed with all the words of wisdom and good advice from so many concerning my original post. Perhaps I should have titled it "HOW SHOULD ONE BID ON FEEBAY AND THE PSYCHOLOGY INVOLVED?" rather than asking a simple question about the word REASONABLE.
Let me get this out..........when I posted my auctions I was given a choice of listing the stuff as a "straight auction" or the "Buy It Now" feature. Since I can't see listing something I wanted to get $600 for starting at a penny I looked for "RESERVE PRICE". Seemed reasonable (THERE'S THAT WORD AGAIN!) to me as if I only got a $1 bid as top bidder I have to sell it. Kinda stupid doing that. SO, since it NEVER SHOWED me how to place a reserve price I opted for BIN. Seemed like a good way to go. Well, when I was lisiting the stuff it automatically applied "OR BEST OFFER" to the auctions. OK, I thought, I can do that. So I entered the rest of the information and hit LIST and it rejected it saying I had to provide a minimum price. OK.........so I did............I made the MAO price lower and what I would accept and then it rejected that saying the minimum can't be equal to the BIN price. It wasn't and they were both different. So now what? So I changed my BIN to be above the MAO price and it kept rejecting it until I had the BIN price way out of line. SO what can one do? It never gave me the option of just BIN which I would have been fine with.
I exited and tried later to list the stuff. This time it added the MAO to my BIN listing with a small difference in the prices I could live with so I listed the stuff. Yes, consistancy seems to be absent listing things.
Before you all ask...........YES..........I tried to get help from feebay which is more difficult than booking a trip to Pluto (STILL a planet). I finally got to speak to a live person after going around and around their click here to be rerouted system. Unfortunately, my experience doing this always connects me to a person of diminished intelligence who never can understand the problem and also speaks some language I can't comprehend.
SO to get back to my original posting about REASONABLE OFFERS I fully understand wanting a "deal" and all that. I also understand that as long-time modelers, especially us brass guys, that no one can expect a guy asking $600 for an engine to accept a bid for $100. To me that's totally unreasonable and pure assinine to even ask.
As usual this is a fine example of how a thread gets so off course it becomes unrecognizable.
Thanks for all the strategy and ideas on bidding even though none really helped with my question.
oldline1...to me as if I only got a $1 bid as top bidder I have to sell it. Kinda stupid doing that.
If you list the item as a regular auction WHY would you have to make your starting price One Dollar? You can make your starting price closer to the $600 you are hoping to get and not worry about selling below that.
I shy away from "Reserve Price" auctions. Every bid up to the unknown reserve is just a waste of time. Simply make the opening price at your minimum and go from there.
Ed,
I was only explaining the choices offered to me by feebay at the time I listed my auctions. Reserve price wasn't there. I did list them as straight auction at the price I wanted as starting price.
I don't know what they think there at the watercooler but it seems every time I try to run auctions the rules change and the listing process gets more and more strange.
I see plenty of auctions for just a BIN price without the MAO part. I couldn't find that choice when I was listing my stuff. My only 2 choices were the straight auction without reserve price and the BIN/MAO. I personally don't care for the MAO option as a buyer or seller.
oldline1, I don't think it is your intention, but your most recent replies are filled with misinformation about eBay and the selling process. Starting with your continued use of the term "feebay", you are clearly giving people a false impression of how to sell items on eBay.
It is possible to conduct auctions, and it is possible to include a reserve price. It is possible to conduct Buy It Now sales, and it is possible to include or exclude the Best Offer option.
Instead of persisting to blast eBay, if you are serious about effectively utilizing the selling process, contact eBay by phone and describe what you would like to do in terms of auctions and Buy It Now listings. I have always found eBay's Customer Service to be knowledgeable and helpful.
First of all what is reasonable to the seller may not be resonable to the buyer. There are buy/sell groups on Facebook and Yahoo. Since you do not like Ebay maybe you should consider trying one of them. If they are not your deal either take them to a train show and see if they sell there.
richhotrainoldline1, I don't think it is your intention, but your most recent replies are filled with misinformation about eBay and the selling process. Starting with your continued use of the term "feebay", you are clearly giving people a false impression of how to sell items on eBay. It is possible to conduct auctions, and it is possible to include a reserve price. It is possible to conduct Buy It Now sales, and it is possible to include or exclude the Best Offer option. Instead of persisting to blast eBay, if you are serious about effectively utilizing the selling process, contact eBay by phone and describe what you would like to do in terms of auctions and Buy It Now listings. I have always found eBay's Customer Service to be knowledgeable and helpful. Rich
Excuse my use of the term and I'm sorry it offends you or anyone else but it is what it is. I don't think I'm giving people a false sense of how to deal with feebay. Most people have already formed their opinions of the company either way just like with everything else.
Anyway, if you read my posts I explained that I have used feebay for many years and have had many auctions. All the things you and others say about how to do it usually worked. HOWEVER, the last 2 times I have tried to list my stuff there just weren't the options I found before on the pages where I listed things.
The reserve price option did not show anywhere on them. The choice of selecting Make An Offer was mandatory when I selected Buy It Now. So what was I to do?
I DID CALL FEEBAY CS and actually I called 3 times. I'm sorry but I can't talk whatever language those people were talking. The one agent that made reasonable sense just couldn't seem to understand what I wanted to do with the auction. Her suggestion was to just list my engine in a straight auction with a $1 starting bid and let the auction run. I certainly don't think so! That's not a good way to sell things. I don't think you or any of the other folks here would list an expensive brass engine in a straight auction for $1 with nothing to protect you. She had no idea why that wasn't a workable solution.
Anyway, I have tried to relist some items and have run in to the same options. I see auctions all the time with just BIN so what's the trick to doing that? I can't find the magic button to click and make that happen.
As to reasonable. Yes, your idea and my idea aren't the same obviously. I think $100 for a $600 item is very unreasonable in my case. I'm very willing to work with someone but the object here is to sell the item and not give it away free to a good home. How many of you would accept that offer? Be real and think about it. Yes, we all want a good deal but facts are facts and none of you who think I was wrong to not accept a $100 for my engine wouldn't accept the offer were it proferred to you.
Speaking of unreasonable have any of you noticed the messages from feebay after your auction is over telling you to relist? I recently had an S scale N&W A & aux tender on auction. It didn't sell and feebay SUGGESTED I list it for $150-180! Yeah, right! Like I said before I don't know where they come up with some of their crap but that's just purely insane. On the other hand.....I'm sure it would sell for that price.
Never mind, my situation is my situation, most don't seem to believe me or undestand so let's just let it rest. One last thing...........I didn't create the term feebay..............I first heard it here on the MR forums and have heard it many other places like train shows and hobby shops so don't blame me for the accurate term.
oldline1, I am not suggesting that your expectation for a selling price is unreasonable. I am simply pointing out that your assumptions about selling methods are wrong. Give eBay Customer Service another call and tell the representative that you wish to start an auction with a reserve price or start a Buy It Now listing without a Best Offer option. Tell the rep that these options are not showing up when you go to prepare a listing. Sometimes, some of the options do not appear and the representative can "fix the glitch".
oldline1,
First I believe you when you say you had trouble setting up the listing the way you wanted it to be.
That process can be confusing, and sometimes I do think it is on purpose to "steer" people to do what Ebay wants.
BUT, the selling methods I and others listed earlier in this thread are "in there" and can be done. Often you simply need to "uncheck" a box that Ebay has checked for you in advance......
I have no opinion about your pricing, except to say this, I only sell on Ebay two ways:
BUY IT NOW - with no "best offer".
or
AUCTION - with no other features, no reserve, no buy it now. BUT, I set the starting price at the lowest price I an willing to sell the item for. Works fine every time.
Again, I only own two brass locos, I have no interest in brass, I have no opinion on its fair pricing - I play with cheap plastic and die cast metal trains......
About this Feebay thing, have you ever operated a business? Like a retail store? If you think Ebay's fees are too high, I respectfully suggest you show me where or how anyone reaches a customer base that large and has the payment/shipping/customer service infrastructure that they have for less?
Ebay fees are typical of the overhead percentages of any direct to the customer business model, and all you need supply is a computer and printer - what a deal.
I've been selling custom tractor parts on Ebay for about 6 years now. Not a big business, but I could never have reached my several hundred customers for less by any other means, if I could have reached them at all......
I don't buy a ton on Ebay, but if I do find what I need, I buy on Ebay without hesitation - never had a bad experiance - I have had problems, but they always got worked out quickly and professionally.
If you want a minimum $600 for an item, set up an auction with the starting price at $600.
If you'd be willing to take a little less, then make that little less price the starting bid.
DoughlessIf you want a minimum $600 for an item, set up an auction with the starting price at $600. If you'd be willing to take a little less, then make that little less price the starting bid.
Apparently you have failed to read the many posts that have come before! Read them and get the answer to that statement.
oldline1 Doughless If you want a minimum $600 for an item, set up an auction with the starting price at $600. If you'd be willing to take a little less, then make that little less price the starting bid. Apparently you have failed to read the many posts that have come before! Read them and get the answer to that statement. oldline1
Doughless If you want a minimum $600 for an item, set up an auction with the starting price at $600. If you'd be willing to take a little less, then make that little less price the starting bid.
https://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/reserve.html
To add a reserve price when you list an item:
Under Select format and price, select Auction.
Next to Reserve price,select Add a reserve price.
Enter your reserve price and click Save.
Under Choose a format and price, select Auction.
Next to No reserve price set for this item, click Change.
Next to Choose a format and price, click Add or remove options .
In the window, select Reserve price and click Save.
Next to No reserve price set for this item, click change.
In the window, enter the reserve price and click Save.
You can add a reserve price to an active listing as long as it hasn't received any bids and there are at least 12 hours left in the listing.
Go to My eBay > All Selling.
In the row for the item you want to change, in the Actions drop-down menu, select Revise.
Under Choose a format and price, next to No reserve price set for this item, click Change.
At the bottom of the page, click Continue.
At the bottom of the next page, click Submit revisions.
Next to Choose a format and price, click Add or remove options.
Next to No Reserve price set for this item, Click Change
And I laughed when I saw this:
Note: When you add a reserve price to your item, we charge a reserve price fee.
In addition to the advanced listing upgrades above, the following upgrades are specific just to auction-style listings.
Reserve price
Add a minimum price that must be met for your item to sell.
$0.01–$74.99
$3
$75 or more
4% of reserve price
Maximum charge of $100
Special duration
Use of 1- or 3-day listing durations.
$1
BMMECNYC oldline1 Doughless If you want a minimum $600 for an item, set up an auction with the starting price at $600. If you'd be willing to take a little less, then make that little less price the starting bid. Apparently you have failed to read the many posts that have come before! Read them and get the answer to that statement. oldline1 https://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/reserve.html Creating a listing with a reserve price To add a reserve price when you list an item: In the quick listing tool: Under Select format and price, select Auction. Next to Reserve price,select Add a reserve price. Enter your reserve price and click Save. In other listing tool: Under Choose a format and price, select Auction. Next to No reserve price set for this item, click Change. Enter your reserve price and click Save. If you don't see the reserve price option: Next to Choose a format and price, click Add or remove options . In the window, select Reserve price and click Save. Next to No reserve price set for this item, click change. In the window, enter the reserve price and click Save.
I would say that last selection is the source of why you dont see a reserve price option.
BMMECNYC,
Many thanks for the research and posting for the procedures. I appreciate your time and efforts to help out. I have no idea why some of that stuff wasn't available to me when I was listing my stuff. Honestly, I tried to find it and did seek help but I find it very hard to find things there (I won't say feebay as a courtesy to those sensitive to the word) using their "help". It seems to run me around and around in a closed loop. The phone calls to CS..........well..........you read my experiences and feelings about that.
I didn't find anything about addind the reserve price. I DID find out how much they charge for the service. I also tried to make a couple auctions 3 day ones and found they add another FEE for that too.
Besides the listing issues and FEES I think another issue I have with them is their constant changes for everything. It's like when I worked for the airline......they thrive on confusing you. I also dislike having to use PayPal. I dealt for years on both sides of the auctions using checks and money orders with no problems. I sort of resent having to include another process that sucks up more of your money. Same with them dictating all the shipping. I think most of us are smart enough to look up the USPS website and calculate the cost to ship a package without them involved.
Anyway, it is what it is! Thanks to all that tried to help point out things.
oldline1I think most of us are smart enough to look up the USPS website and calculate the cost to ship a package without them involved.
That part is really annoying, as ebay doesnt seem to understand that you can bundle shipping, so they charge you the sum of all the shipping charges of the items in the cart. Most sellers go back and fix the shipping if you dont pay right away.
BMMECNYCBMMECNYC wrote the following post 8 minutes ago: oldline1 I think most of us are smart enough to look up the USPS website and calculate the cost to ship a package without them involved. That part is really annoying, as ebay doesnt seem to understand that you can bundle shipping, so they charge you the sum of all the shipping charges of the items in the cart. Most sellers go back and fix the shipping if you dont pay right away.
That's another thing that bothers me about THEM. I don't see why they should get 13% of MY SHIPPING COSTS. That rubs me. I hate to keep bringing up FEES but they seem to just create more of them all the time to get into your pocket. I think they make it difficult for sellers.
BMMECNYCThat part is really annoying, as ebay doesnt seem to understand that you can bundle shipping,
I only use the "Shopping Cart" occasionally.
When I do have multiple items in the cart I select the button that is labeled "Request Total From Seller" then the seller can send an adjusted invoice with the actual shipping charge applied.
You can also attach a message to the seller during this time if there are any special circumstances or requests.
gmpullman BMMECNYC That part is really annoying, as ebay doesnt seem to understand that you can bundle shipping, I only use the "Shopping Cart" occasionally. When I do have multiple items in the cart I select the button that is labeled "Request Total From Seller" then the seller can send an adjusted invoice with the actual shipping charge applied. You can also attach a message to the seller during this time if there are any special circumstances or requests. Ed
BMMECNYC That part is really annoying, as ebay doesnt seem to understand that you can bundle shipping,
Neat,
Thanks Ed. Never noticed that button before.
I did. That's what prompted my response. You sell the item for the price you want, and ebay takes a 13% fee. Again assuming a minimum price is what the seller is looking for.
Why mess with BIN, Best Offer, Unreasonable Offers, Reserve Pricing. I don't know what y'all are even talking about or why anybody would want to use those features.
In recent years I have only purchased "Buy it Now".
It is easy. Before buying I do reasearch to determine if the the total cost is the lowest.
Last year I bought some out of production plastic model kits for $5.00- $15.00 less than the cost from other sources that had them. One has sense been put back in production at twice the price I paid.
SeeYou190When someone auto-outbids me on what I really want, I have become VERY GOOD at sneak-bidding up to HIS maximum bid. If you stop me from getting what I want... I will make you pay for it. Spiteful losers like me are something to consider when putting in your "silent maximum" amount.
Ugh! It happened right back to me. I hate being the bug, it is so much better being the windhshield.
I was travelling on Sunday, so I had to put my maximum bid in before I left.
I outbid this guy, and he very craftily bid me all the way up to my maximum bid EXACTLY like I would have done it. He did it in just a few minutes and forced me to overpay.
I guess turn-about is always fair play.
Oh well.
I just had to laugh it off. At least I got another good caboose I needed.
SeeYou190 SeeYou190 When someone auto-outbids me on what I really want, I have become VERY GOOD at sneak-bidding up to HIS maximum bid. If you stop me from getting what I want... I will make you pay for it. Spiteful losers like me are something to consider when putting in your "silent maximum" amount. . Ugh! It happened right back to me. I hate being the bug, it is so much better being the windhshield. . I was travelling on Sunday, so I had to put my maximum bid in before I left. . I outbid this guy, and he very craftily bid me all the way up to my maximum bid EXACTLY like I would have done it. He did it in just a few minutes and forced me to overpay. . I guess turn-about is always fair play. . Oh well. . . I just had to laugh it off. At least I got another good caboose I needed. . -Kevin .
SeeYou190 When someone auto-outbids me on what I really want, I have become VERY GOOD at sneak-bidding up to HIS maximum bid. If you stop me from getting what I want... I will make you pay for it. Spiteful losers like me are something to consider when putting in your "silent maximum" amount.
Kevin, I don't get it, he could have bid $1,000 but the selling price will still end up only being $5 more than the next lower bid?
I buy on Ebay all the time, but when it comes to auctions, I place my max and walk away, I win or I don't.
But I'm not the kind of person who needs to "beat" anyone......my ego is not invested in that.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI don't get it, he could have bid $1,000 but the selling price will still end up only being $5 more than the next lower bid?
He did not want to win, he wanted me to pay my max bid. He accomplished that. He forced me to pay my max. Booo. He ran up the price, and he did it like a pro. I need to respect that.
It happens. I usually do it to others, but this time it happened to me.
Like I said, I just laugh it off.
Only one more PRR NDa and my caboose fleet is completed! Hopefully the next one will be back in the $80.00 range where they belong.
I think the bidder was simply trying to win the caboose at the lowest possible price, not trying to spite anybody.
He tried to get by as cheaply as possible and lost out on winning the item.
My feelings on ebay as both a seller and a buyer is wayyyy to many people are stuck in pre 2008 prices, espically on brass. I mean, seriously, how many times are you going to list a common PFM 2 truck Climax with bent foot boards at nearly $600 bucks? Best suggestion is when doing research on your pricing is to look at COMPLETED auctions, not the wishing prices so rampent on there every day. The completed auctions can be found thru the advanced search option. And it is there that one will find prices realized and the date it was sold. If the selling prices are not what you want for your model, then you are probably wasting your time and money listing the model. I have seen models relisted over and over at the same overinflated price for over an year in some instances. Those ebay listing fees ad up mind you. Just my 2 cents. Mike the Aspie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
I don't understand why you or anyone else would take bidding on ebay personally, that's really Petty and Childish actually.
But I am Happy to see that Karma is Alive and Well
SeeYou190He did not want to win, he wanted me to pay my max bid. He accomplished that. He forced me to pay my max. Booo. He ran up the price, and he did it like a pro. I need to respect that.
You clearly don't understand how the bidding works. The only way he can determine what your max bid is is to outbid you. He had no way to know that if he'd bid more that your automatic bid wouldn't have just outbid him again. When he stopped he didn't know if your max was $107.99 or $1,007.99.
You shouldn't assume that others are as spiteful as you are.
SeeYou190 SeeYou190 When someone auto-outbids me on what I really want, I have become VERY GOOD at sneak-bidding up to HIS maximum bid. If you stop me from getting what I want... I will make you pay for it. Spiteful losers like me are something to consider when putting in your "silent maximum" amount. Ugh! It happened right back to me. I hate being the bug, it is so much better being the windhshield.. I was travelling on Sunday, so I had to put my maximum bid in before I left. I outbid this guy, and he very craftily bid me all the way up to my maximum bid EXACTLY like I would have done it. He did it in just a few minutes and forced me to overpay. I guess turn-about is always fair play.. Oh well. I just had to laugh it off. At least I got another good caboose I needed.. -Kevin
Ugh! It happened right back to me. I hate being the bug, it is so much better being the windhshield..
I guess turn-about is always fair play..
I just had to laugh it off. At least I got another good caboose I needed..
But, there is a flaw in your reasoning. And at least one other reply has pointed this out.
If the winning bidder was just being spiteful in an attempt to force you to pay more, that implies that he really didn't want to win the item but, rather, just force you to pay more. As Carl suggested, he couldn't know whether your max was $107.99 or $1,007.99. So, let's say that your silent reserve was $1,007.99 (because you are spiteful). In his spite, he places a silent reserve of, say, $10,000.00. He will now win the auction at $1,032.99. Now what? He will have to pay $1,032.99 for a caboose that he didn't want? I don't think so.
Kevin, you gotta get over this feeling of paranoia.
carl425The only way he can determine what your max bid is is to outbid you. He had no way to know that
Oh yes you can!
eBay uses incremental bidding, At low amouts it raises the bid by only $1.00, then autobids up at different increments as the bid gets higher. If you know the increments, you can find a maximum bid.
My maximmum bid was $107.89 for this item.
My worthy and noble opponent's highest bid was $105.66, made wll before the auction ended. Since he knew the bid increment at this level was $2.50, and the bid only jumped by $2.23, he knew that he had found my maximum bid and forced me to pay the most I was willing to give for this item. The eBay proxy bid system will not jump by the full level increment if your max bid is lower.
If you look at the bid history and the amounts he bid, he is very good at this. I have to give him a tip of the hat for how well he did this to me.
I just found it funny it happened to me. I set myself up for it.
Like I said, it is all fun, and I just laugh it off. There is no revenge to it, maybe a slight amount of spite, but nothing mean.
All in good cheer.
SeeYou190 carl425 The only way he can determine what your max bid is is to outbid you. He had no way to know that. Oh yes you can!. eBay uses incremental bidding, At low amouts it raises the bid by only $1.00, then autobids up at different increments as the bid gets higher. If you know the increments, you can find a maximum bid.. My maximmum bid was $107.89 for this item.
carl425 The only way he can determine what your max bid is is to outbid you. He had no way to know that.
Oh yes you can!.
eBay uses incremental bidding, At low amouts it raises the bid by only $1.00, then autobids up at different increments as the bid gets higher. If you know the increments, you can find a maximum bid..
Let's say in that particular auction, you currently hold the highest bid which is $115.00, but your max (what I call the silent reserve) is $127.51. I don't know your silent reserve, but I bid an amount well in excess of $127.51 and, lo and behold, I now hold the highest bid which is $130.01.
The reason that it is $130.01 is because, at that level of bidding, the next "bid increment" is $2.50, using the eBay table. Knowing that the bid increment at that level is $2.50, you are prepared to recapture the lead, so you need to outbid me. What is my maximum bid (my silent reserve)?
Good luck!
I think what Kevin is saying is that the losing bidder bid in small increments until he found the maximum bid of an opponent, then failed to bid an extra $5 to at least try to win the item.
Its a brass caboose. Those brass guys are concerned about value so it may have been the seller bidding by proxy to raise the price to as high as it could go, or maybe even a dealer trying to lift the "market value" of the item.
It does seem odd that the loser knew what the next bid was and couldn't muster the time or extra $5 to snipe the bid at the end and maybe win it.
Coincidentally, I bought a brass PRR caboose just a few weeks ago. I was pretty satisfied with my final cost.
Untitled-1 by Edmund, on Flickr
I guess they call it sniping— but I only bid in the last few moments of an auction. I don't see any reason to get into a bidding frenzy when there is still hours — or even days — before an auction ends. I let the chips fall where they may and if the bid is still within what I'm willing to pay, I make my bid in the last ten or twenty seconds of the auction end.
I figure the next-to-last bidder has already entered his or her maximum (Silent Reserve?) and I simply fill in the amount that I'm willing to pay and wait a few moments for the results at the very end of the auction.
Usually it works out OK, but not always... No problem. It's only a hobby.
P.S. I had hoped the OP would have edited his "Feebay" title. Personally, I think Ebay's fees are in-line with other services out there.
My grocery store buys wholesale and then doubles the selling price. Turns out they have been doing this for years!
gmpullman I guess they call it sniping?
I guess they call it sniping?
richhotrain gmpullman I guess they call it sniping? It is called shill bidding when the seller or one of his surrogates makes bids to boost the current bid price. Rich
It is called shill bidding when the seller or one of his surrogates makes bids to boost the current bid price.
Sniping and shill bids are pretty different. Sniping is coming in with a bid just at the last moment in order to win the item without others catching on that you are interested.
Shill bids (which are mostly urban legends) are when confederates (or sock puppet identities) of the seller place bids to drive others’ bids up. This doesn't actually happen often, because the shill bidders might win the item -- and then the seller would be out the selling fees and would have to list the item again.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
DoughlessIt does seem odd that the loser knew what the next bid was
He didn't.
carl425He had no way to know that if he'd bid more that your automatic bid wouldn't have just outbid him again. When he stopped he didn't know if your max was $107.99 or $1,007.99.
+1
cuyama richhotrain gmpullman I guess they call it sniping? It is called shill bidding when the seller or one of his surrogates makes bids to boost the current bid price. Rich Shill bids (which are mostly urban legends) are when confederates (or sock puppet identities) of the seller place bids to drive others’ bids up. This doesn't actually happen often, because the shill bidders might win the item -- and then the seller would be out the selling fees and would have to list the item again.
How can you say for sure that shill bids are urban legends? Shill bids happen more often than you might think. Just ask eBay officials.
richhotrainShill bids happen more often than you might think. Just ask eBay officials.
I have a friend at eBay who works on fraud specifically. So I have asked -- and the answer is that it happens a lot less than it is rumored. So there's one data point.
Couldn't help myself...had to jump in again on this worn out thread.....
Shill bids do exist - no question about it.
Also, on something I just have to have, I will "snipe" if the auction end times suits my body clock. Why put in your max bid up front, as it will often be raised by others just for kicks.
Yes, I know all the above by experience......."Mobilman44"
cuyama richhotrain Shill bids happen more often than you might think. Just ask eBay officials. I have a friend at eBay who works on fraud specifically. So I have asked -- and the answer is that it happens a lot less than it is rumored. So there's one data point.
richhotrain Shill bids happen more often than you might think. Just ask eBay officials.
C'mon, Byron, if it isn't a common occurrence, how come eBay commits so much in writing in its policy section about the practice and goes so far as to point out that it is illegal. Do a Google search, it is filled with discussions from legitimate sources about the extent of the problem. Where it most often happens is on auctions with unusually low starting bids and those auctions with lots of activity. It is easy to rely on surrogates to boost the price in such situations without actually being stuck with the winning bid.
Truth seems less attractive than conspiracy theory, so I'll bow out.
... by the way, there are no alligators in the sewers in NYC, either.
I believe the majority of "shill bids" are from friends of individuals just wanting to jumpstart their auction or to test a bidders max.
The habitual use of a shill by a seller is - in my opinion/experience - pretty infrequent. In fact, I've caught on to it only 3 times to the best of my recall, and I've been an Ebay regular since 2000.
cuyama Doughless It does seem odd that the loser knew what the next bid was He didn't.
Doughless It does seem odd that the loser knew what the next bid was
I was going off of what either Kevin or Rich said since I couldn't tell from the bid history that was posted.
I'm no conspiratorist. I only offered the possibility of a person running up the bill for a business reason, not because of spite.
Its a brass caboose. Something that may not get a lot of interest, unlike, say an Athearn GP9. So anybody in the brass collectors market has an interest in not seeing an item go for dirt cheap just because there happens to be not much activity that day. He doesn't even have to be related to the seller.
The more likley explanation is the loser just got tired of creeping up his bid. It has to end at some point if he's already maxed out.
richhotrainOK, Kevin, let's put you to the test.
OK, but instead of using your hypothetical example, how about some reality?
Just for you, I just ran this guy up to his maximum bid. You can see the difference between my last bid (I am king64ramone) and his bid are less than $1.00, so I know I found his maximum. That is because the proxy bid did not go the full $1.00 at this level.
OK, I hope that puts to bed the idea that I, or anyone else cannot run up a bid when you outbid us. I only posted this originally because I was offering a warning to people that put in their maximum bid early and let it ride. You could wind up paying more.
Anyway, I am done with this subject. I appologize for all the feathers I unintentionally ruffled.
Happy bidding.
While I think Kevin's attitude about ebay bidding getting personal is childish, I will agree with him that it is POSSIBLE to to determine someone's Maximum bid, but it can take some effort, there is no easy, secret or magic way to do it, and you run the risk of exceding the bid and possibly paying more for something than you want, especially if you are doing it to be spiteful, and are running someone's bid up beyond what you would want to pay for the item, in which case, Karma is a Wonderful thing
for example, if I wanted to determine Kevin's max bid on the Caboose, using $1.00 as the bid increments( we will keep it consistent, but the increments increase as the price goes up, at certain points)
The current bid is say $75.00, I keep placing bids of $1.00, after 20 bids the current bid is $95.00, I bid $1.00, but the new current bid goes to $96.58, my bid would have increased it to $96.00, and if Kevin's Max bid was $97.00 or higher it would go to $97.00, but I now KNOW that Kevin's CURRENT MAX BID is $96.58, because it is a smaller increment, than the minimum increase, so even though it can't increase to the next standard increment, Kevin had placed his Max Bid while it was still within bidding range, and since it is the Highest bid placed that is the new current winning Bid.
Now, Kevin if he is available can place a new Max Bid, and I would have to start all over again, if I was being Childish, and Spiteful.
If I had bid $96.59, instead of $96.00, I would be the winning bid by a penny, if Kevin wasn't able to enter a new Max Bid before the auction ended, and I would be stuck with a Caboose for $96.59, that I didn't really want, Karma just bit me for being Spiteful and Childish like Kevin.
As the Minimum Bid increment increases I would have to be careful about running the bid up out of spite, the bigger the increments become, the greater the risk in winning an item that I don't really want, or paying a higher price than it is really worth to ME.
So, it IS POSSIBLE to determine another bidder's max bid, but it takes effort, and involves the risk of over paying, or buying an item you don't REALLY want, but it CAN be done.
ps, no, I didn't figure this out play Silly Childish games, but by having this situation happen (I believe by pure chance, not pettiness) to me on a couple different auctions, and thought through just WHAT happened.
SeeYou190OK, I hope that puts to bed the idea that I, or anyone else cannot run up a bid when you outbid us. I only posted this originally because I was offering a warning to people that put in their maximum bid early and let it ride. You could wind up paying more. .
But not more than you are willing to pay.
What started this latest debate began with Carl's assertion that the only to determine Kevin's max bid was to outbid him. That is absolutely correct. Kevin's challenge to that assertion if fact supported it. Take a look.
SeeYou190 carl425 The only way he can determine what your max bid is is to outbid you. He had no way to know that. Oh yes you can! eBay uses incremental bidding, At low amouts it raises the bid by only $1.00, then autobids up at different increments as the bid gets higher. If you know the increments, you can find a maximum bid. My maximmum bid was $107.89 for this item.
Kevin found the other guy's max bid by outbidding him.
In Kevin's most recent example, he didn't find the other guy's max bid, he merely revealed his own max bid ($32.45). The guy who won could have set his max bid (the silent reserve} at $500.00. Kevin wouldn't know that unless he outbid him.
I agree with Kevin and Challenger. I think its possible to reveal a maximum bid by placing a bid just below the opponent's maximum but within the built in automatic increase. Kevins latest example shows what the winner paid, and he paid his maximum amount. I think I have done this in the past by shear chance, where the winner paid less than 50 cents more than my maximum bid when I tried to snipe something.
What I dont understand is why someone would bid up an item just to reveal a maximum bid, then not go the extra few dollars to try to win it. They're goal of running up the other guy's price could result in their last bid actually being the highest, then they're buying an item they didn't really want.
Doughless I agree with Kevin and Challenger. I think its possible to reveal a maximum bid by placing a bid just below the opponent's maximum but within the built in automatic increase. Kevins latest example shows what the winner paid, and he paid his maximum amount.
I agree with Kevin and Challenger. I think its possible to reveal a maximum bid by placing a bid just below the opponent's maximum but within the built in automatic increase. Kevins latest example shows what the winner paid, and he paid his maximum amount.
Rich if you read my post, it shows exactly how to determine the MAX BID for ALL BIDDERS at THAT point in time, if nobody increases their bids.
If the incremental bid for the price point you are at is say $1.00, then if someone keeps bidding $1.00 and the current bid increase by less than $1.00, you have found the current MAX BID of ALL the bidders.
If the auction starts at $1.00 and Kevin bids $96.58 at the beginning, and bidders keep placing $1.00 bids eventually the bidding will get to $95.00, then the next bidder bids $1.00, normally $97.00 would be the next increment, but Kevins $96.58 bid early is still valid, and the HIGHEST bid, so the current bid (for Kevin) will go to $96.58, because that is the highest valid bid, even though it didn't meet the minimum increment, it didn't need to because when placed it was greater than the minimum increment at that time. ebay can't bid beyond Kevin's Max bid, so it will use the(Kevin's) highest valid bid.
If the bid increases by less than the minimum, you HAVE found the HIGHEST BID OF ALL BIDDERS, do you understand yet?
You obviously don't understand ebay as well as you think you do, you are wrong.
Rich it would work like this
Current Bid
Auction opening Bid $1.00 $0.00
Kevin Bids $96.58 $1.00
Johnny Bids $1.00
Ebay proxy bids for Kevin $2.00 $2.00
Bobby Bids $27.86
Ebay proxy bids for Kevin $28.86
Mike bids $45.00
Ebay proxy bids for Kevin $46.00
Mike bids $96.57
ebay proxy bids for Kevin $96.58
Auction Ends $96.58
Kevin wins by a Penny, minimum increment was $1.00, Kevins original $96.58 bid is valid until exceeded, even if it is ultimately only $0.01 greater than the next lower bidder, because it exceeded the min imum incremental bid, when it was PLACED, and it was never exceeded.
To a Savvy ebayer, a bidder would have known that Kevin's MAX BID was $96.58, because the increase beyond Mike's bid was only$0.01 and did not meet the minimum incremental increase. If Kevin's (or anyone else's) MAX BID had been more, it would have increased by more than the Penny that Kevin won by.
The Current Bid increased by less than the minimum incremental bid increase, Ergo, the MAX BID of ALL BIDDERS has been reached. There is no more reserve bid left in any bidders MAX BID.
As much as it pains me to say it, Kevin Wins, this Hypothetical auction, and the argument with you.
Please tell me that you Finally understand how this works. It IS POSSIBLE to determine another bidders MAX BID, without, out bidding them.
I Absolutely HATE the forum software, I had all the bids in nice columns, and when I submitted the reply, for GAWD knows reasons, it shifted all of Kevin's bids to under his bid entry, not in the spread sheet I laid out, damned if I know WHY it does that, but it sure gets frustrating.
I have had repeated issues trying to organize information in columns here before, one would think that a publishing company would have better software, or whatever the issue is, it's not like this is Joe's Donut's forum, where his Brother in Law built his site as a favor
Goodness, I'm just happy there is a Forum and thank Kalmbach for it.
I guess I'm just a bit too logical........If one likes Ebay, use it. If one does not like Ebay, go elsewhere.
That said, I would suggest to the powers that be that its time to shut this thread down..................
I think that mobilman44 is right. This thread should be locked.
richhotrain Doughless I agree with Kevin and Challenger. I think its possible to reveal a maximum bid by placing a bid just below the opponent's maximum but within the built in automatic increase. Kevins latest example shows what the winner paid, and he paid his maximum amount. I gotta stop replying because I keep trying to make the same point. In Kevin's example, the winner did not necessarily pay his maximum amount. He only had to pay an amount incrementally higher (as predetermine by eBay rules) than the then highest bid. The winning bid did not reveal the amount of the silent reserve that the winning bidder had placed. It did reveal the maximum bid of the second place finisher. Rich
I gotta stop replying because I keep trying to make the same point. In Kevin's example, the winner did not necessarily pay his maximum amount. He only had to pay an amount incrementally higher (as predetermine by eBay rules) than the then highest bid. The winning bid did not reveal the amount of the silent reserve that the winning bidder had placed. It did reveal the maximum bid of the second place finisher.
Rich. Just asking a question. If ebay incrementally raises bids, say $3.00, and I bid $100.50, and the prevailing maximum silent bid is $102.00, will ebay say..
I am outbid, and then show the current bid for the item at $102.00? (It can't show the current winning bid at $103.50 because nobody has bid that much)
If not, what other mount will show on the screen as the current winning bid?
I think it will show the $102. If this is the case, then I've just exposed the maximum silent bid without outbidding it.
richhotrain I think that mobilman44 is right. This thread should be locked. Rich
Wow, you can not only not understand a simple concept, but there is no reason to lock this thread, if you aren't interested in it, unsubscribe to it, then don't open it.
The title of the thread is pretty clear as to what the content is about, if you're not interested don't OPEN the thread, it takes a deliberate act to open and read a thread, some titles are a bit vague as to the subject of the thread, if you are not interested, just back button out, and don't open the thread again, Pretty Simple.
There have been countless threads that I opened, and wasn't interested in, just backed out, and left it for those who were interested, I have seen threads about things like the color of the firebrick in the firebox of a Pennsy K4, never mind, I'm not interested, but you guys go ahead and enjoy your discussion.
Just because YOU aren't interested in a thread, it doesn't need to be closed.
Doughless richhotrain Doughless I agree with Kevin and Challenger. I think its possible to reveal a maximum bid by placing a bid just below the opponent's maximum but within the built in automatic increase. Kevins latest example shows what the winner paid, and he paid his maximum amount. I gotta stop replying because I keep trying to make the same point. In Kevin's example, the winner did not necessarily pay his maximum amount. He only had to pay an amount incrementally higher (as predetermine by eBay rules) than the then highest bid. The winning bid did not reveal the amount of the silent reserve that the winning bidder had placed. It did reveal the maximum bid of the second place finisher. Rich Rich. Just asking a question. If ebay incrementally raises bids, say $3.00, and I bid $100.50, and the prevailing maximum silent bid is $102.00, will ebay say.. I am outbid, and then show the current bid for the item at $102.00? (It can't show the current winning bid at $103.50 because nobody has bid that much) If not, what other mount will show on the screen as the current winning bid? I think it will show the $102. If this is the case, then I've just exposed the maximum silent bid without outbidding it.
Doughless, using your scenario, of $3.00 incremental bids, and the current MAX BID of $102.00, if you bid $100.50, then ebay will make the new current bid $102.00, and the bidder who bid that would then be the current High Bidder.
But with the new current bid being less than what the incremental minimum bid SHOULD have advanced the current bid to, you will KNOW, that $102.00 is the current MAX BID of all bidders, if there was a current max bid higher it would have raised the current bid to the next incremental bid level, the fact that the bid only increased $1.50, instead of $3.00 tells you there weren't any bids high enough to reach the next increment, and the bidding is AT, the current MAX BID.
A Bidder can of course enter a NEW Max Bid, and the process would start all over, if you were trying to determine the MAX BID.
In your scenario, if you had bid the same $102.00 that you didn't know had already been bid, the current max bid, would still be $102.00 and the first bidder to have bid would still be the current high bidder, as his bid preceeded yours, but again the current bid being what you bid, and that you were NOT the current high bidder would tell you that the current max bid had been reached. If you had bid $102.01, you would then be the new high bidder, even though your bid didn't meet the incremental increase over the other bidders bid, because it still met the minimum increase over the current high bid WHEN YOU PLACED your bid.
Rich doesn't seem to understand that the ONLY reason the current bid increased by less than the minimum incremental bid, was that it COULDN'T, a less than incremental increase in the current bid, tells anyone that is paying attention, the current MAX BID has been reached.
Another common misconception about ebay, is that people often refer to ebay, as a "Silent Auction" which it is NOT, in a True "Silent Auction" everbody submits ONE sealed bid, and has no idea, what anyone else has bid, until all the bids are opened, and whoever placed the highest single bid Wins, there is no competive back and forth bidding in a Silent Auction, everbody cast one bid, and the auction ends.
Again, a lot of people claim that ebay isn't like a "REAL AUCTION", which again is false, ebay is just as Real an auction as any auction house is, because of the proxy bidding, you do reveal your "Maximum Bid" to the auctioneer, which you can increase before auction end, but unlike a Real Auction the auctioneer wont bid your max.
It really is like what many consider a "Real Auction", in that in a Real auction, say it is a nice Project car, classic Mustang, you elvaluate the car, and in your mind you decide, I will pay up to $10,000 for that Pony Car, what you have decided in your mind, directly equates with you Maximum Bid submitted with ebay, in a live auction you CAN bid up to that, but you don't PAY that unless another bidder bids it up to your max Bid, ebay works the same way, but by proxy bidding.
In the Pony Car auction you may decide to pay up to $10,000, the auction starts and the bidding goes up to $7,000, you Bid $7,500, another bids $8,000, so you bid $8,500, and nobody else bids again, so you win at $8,500, even though in your mind you had decided to bid up to $10,000 you didn't have to, even in a "Real Auction" the winning bid is really determined by the second highest bidder, JUST LIKE ebay. The only real difference, is that ebay sets a HARD Auction End Time, but that really isn't the big deal some make it out to be, IF you truly bid what your TRUE max bid would be, it will end up the same. There are some that will get bidders remorse, because they didn't bid what their TRUE max bid should have been, and then later wish that they had bid more. Some times someone will want something more, just because Johnny wants it too, and when they see that Johnny wanted it MORE (IE, was willing to PAY MORE for it) then they say that I would have paid that, but they wouldn't if Johnny didn't want it too.
Some people Really DO understand how ebay works, and some just don't,
I'm rather enjoying this discussion and don't see any need to lock the thread.
The OP began by asking what a reasonable offer is for an item that he would like to get $750 for. He sees the item in a retail store for $800 or $850 (is that negotiable) and he is insulted that someone offers him $475. The original poster seems to feel that Ebay's fees are out-of-line as well.
Then the discussion goes around to all the Ebay options out there which, to a buyer or a seller, just makes the experience all the more worthwhile.. Is there any shill bidding going on? I can't say for sure but I've never been a victim of it.
There have been times where I've been asked to "make me an offer" both in person and I've chosen the option several times at Ebay. Even the first house I bought I made an offer that was about 60% of asking price.
Turns out the seller came back with a counter-offer at about 65% and then let me have the John Deere garden tractor that was in the garage! I'm not ashamed to make low offers, if it insults the seller, then I apologise and walk away.
I can't think of one time where I was disappointed enough to leave less than perfect feedback for a buyer or a seller.
For the most part, I've found some pretty interesting "stuff" both for model railroading and prototype railroads.
Anyone can visit the Ebay site and look up some of the buying guides offered there or look at the Ebay Community
https://community.ebay.com/
and see discussions and hints for both buyers and sellers. There are lots of FAQs and listing examples there, too.
I'm glad M-R hosts this form for us as well AND I'm glad there's Ebay, too. They both have their place for making my hobby more enjoyable.
Thank You
challenger3980Another common misconception about ebay, is that people often refer to ebay, as a "Silent Auction" which it is NOT, in a True "Silent Auction" everbody submits ONE sealed bid, and has no idea, what anyone else has bid, until all the bids are opened, and whoever placed the highest single bid Wins, there is no competive back and forth bidding in a Silent Auction, everbody cast one bid, and the auction ends.
A silent auction is where the live bidding is replaced by a sheet of paper next to the item that is for sale. Bidders write their name and bid, which is higher than the previous line, on the next line of the sheet. Bidders can freely check back during the auction and bid again if they choose.
Here's an example of the sheet used for a silent auction:
Well.............as the original poster I have to say this has gotten so far off the topic it's just stupid. I can't see how it drifted so far away from what a "reasonable offer " is but it has.
I don't believe it needs to be locked or not as the forums should be here for those that enjoy discussions even if they ignore the original topic completely. Because someone doesn't like the topic or is tired of reading the posts doesn't warrant locking it. Others obviously seem to still have stuff to add and argue about so just let them and when you see the next post just skip it. Pretty simple solution!
Carl, my mistake, it was late, on the forth day of what ended up a 65 hour week, I was mixed up Silent Auction with sealed bid auction, my Bad.
Ebay IS more like a "Real Auction" than some realize though, the concept of submitting your max bid seems to confuse some, but it is needed in proxy bidding like ebay uses. Your submitted max bid is just like your mentally predecided bid limit, you just don't have to be present to continue bidding, It can still be increased like a mental bid limit, and you won't necessarily pay either your max bid, or your mental limit.
Kerry
challenger3980 Doughless, using your scenario, of $3.00 incremental bids, and the current MAX BID of $102.00, if you bid $100.50, then ebay will make the new current bid $102.00, and the bidder who bid that would then be the current High Bidder. But with the new current bid being less than what the incremental minimum bid SHOULD have advanced the current bid to, you will KNOW, that $102.00 is the current MAX BID of all bidders.... tells you there weren't any bids high enough to reach the next increment, and the bidding is AT, the current MAX BID.
But with the new current bid being less than what the incremental minimum bid SHOULD have advanced the current bid to, you will KNOW, that $102.00 is the current MAX BID of all bidders.... tells you there weren't any bids high enough to reach the next increment, and the bidding is AT, the current MAX BID.
That's what I thought. It is possible to expose the formerly silent maximum bid without outbidding an opponent by placing a bid within the automatic incremental increase. (It usually takes a bunch of little bids to work your way up to that spot)
I can see where someone might think that is a strategy for winning an item.....revealing a max bid with the thought of then placing a higher maximum bid near the auction's end, so that you are in the lead only once, at auction's end.
The strategy would imply that the bidder is looking for a bargain, not necessarily looking for the item specifically, and assumes others are looking for a bargain and not the item specifically. Those who are wanting to by the item, not necessarily a bargain, would just place a maximum bid and walk away.
The guy who simply wants the item is going to place a max bid that is probably higher than all of the bargain hunters out there.
GMPULLMAN,
I agree, that if posed TACTFULLY, there is no need for someone to be offended by an offer. Several years ago there was an O Gauge locomotive listed on ebay, with a BIN/MAO (Buy It Now/Make An Offer) option, it had been listed for quite awhile, with several auction relistings.
I Made an offer that was low, and some may have been offended by, BUT, with the offer, I included a message to the seller, that I realized my offer was low, but the item had been listed for a long time, and that it was something that I really would like to have, but at the time, my offer was all that I could justify for something that was a want, not a need, and Thanked him for considering my offer.
The seller replied that he understood, and wasn't offended by the offer, Thanked me for making it, and respectfully declined.
The seller understood, I didn't mean to offend, and replied Politely, we didn't make a sale, but both parties felt Good about the results.
GNMT76I don't know if this specific problem has been addressed in this very long thread, so here goes. I dupmed eBay permanently two years ago after it automatically tripled the amount of postage to ship a few very lightweight HO items. My posted fee was the actual, determined at the Post Office: $2.34. Feebay charged the customer over $6. When I called to complain, all I was told by a very arrogant individual was that "the system" determined the fee. The fact that it was far beyond the actual cost did not matter. I call that theft.
GNMT76,
I agree that ebay setting the shipping fee is wrong, I have only Sold a couple items, and that was before this policy was evidently implemented.
I wouldn't call it "Theft" especially on ebay's part, because the shipping fee goes to the seller, not ebay, ebay does get a percentage of the shipping fee, but not enough I'm sure to encourage that.
If you feel that the shipping charge is too high, as the seller, you have the option of refunding the overcharge, deduct the percentage that ebay charges if you want, I would expect that would almost GUARANTEE, Positive feedback from the buyer, and then you wouldn't feel like you took advantage of the situation.
It would only take a small effort, granted you Shouldn't have to, but everyone would be Happy in the end. It is not something that I would "Dump ebay Permanently" over, there are too many Benefits to ebay compared to the negatives, in MY OPINION, ymmv,
Doughless,
Yes it is POSSIBLE, to determine the max bid, without outbidding the high bidder, by using minimum increment bids, and it may take a lot of bidding to do it, and the key is to watch the actual bid increase, that is the clue. less than minimum bid increase you are there. But I think that it usually happens more by chance than intent.
That would be a bad bidding strategy, you would be running the bid up on yoursef, and give everyone else an opportunityto increase their max bid before auction end, potentially increasing the final price.
To win with the lowest possible price, if you are available to bid AT auction end, don't bid AT ALL, until the final 5 seconds or less of the auction, then bid the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM, that you would be willing to pay, you will either Win the item at a price you are comfortable with, or it will sell for more than you are willing to pay.
As mentioned before, a bidder needs to be Mature enough to determine what their "TRUE MAXIMUM BID" is, and not later decide that because Johnny wants it too, it is now worth more to me. If you bid that way, and someone else wins, then you decide that you would have paid more than what the final price was, then you didn't place your "TRUE" maximum bid. I will usually decide what the MOST I would pay for something, then add a buck or two, then I am definitely at the point where if someone else wins, they really did want it more than me. I may have really wanted the item, but NOT at the final price.
On the subject of shill bidding on ebay, you can be sure that it happens more than ebay knows. There is no way that ebay KNOWS about EVERY case of shill bidding, but I also believe that shill bidding is not as prevelant as some think it is.
Before ebay anonomized the bidder identities, there was a seller that I was CONVINCED was using shill bidders, but I suspected it was a form of money laundering, not just trying to increase the auction final price.
I would watch many of the seller's auctions and he was getting entirely too many final prices on way too many auction that were just out of line with reality to be true, and on almost all of his auctions ther were 4-5 regular bidders, that consistently "Won" his auctions.
An example would be his Auctions for a Lionel Union Pacific 0-6-0T Docksider, the catalog MSRP was $109.99, with mail oRearder prices generally $89.99-$99.99, and often on the shelf at my LTS for $99.99.
I watched him sell them for $125.00-$309.00 PLUS $15.00 shipping, while it was still a current production item, and available either on the shelf or for ordering. I saw him sell at least 3 of them, Really he had three of them to sell, and HE found ALL the Elmers to buy HIS, and none of the other sellers with the identical item had any Elmers bid on their auctions? That was just one example of MANY MANY of his auctions, if you believe that all the Elmers just bid on HIS auctions only, I have some OCEAN FRONT property, for sale, Just outside of Phoenix, AZ, I'll make you a Great Deal, and if you have any money left, I also have a Nice Bridge for sale, You Interested?
Whith that seller, the common joke on the CTT forum was, "I need to take pics of my ebay items on a deck railing" there were many others besides myself, that seriously suspected something less than legitmate was going on, I haven't seen that seller now in several years, and if he was selling legitmately, WHY we he STOP? Heck the prices that he was getting, he could walk into an LTS buy a bunch of product at MSRP, go home and sell it on ebay, and at least DOUBLE his money even AFTER ebay's fees and shipping.
[quote user="cuyama"]
Whatta ya mean, that shill biding on ebay doesn't happen, there's no alligators in the NYC sewer system, and I suppose that you're gonna tell me there is NO Santa Claus, or Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairey is a MYTH too?
Doug,
Yes, as the seller I did get the shippping charge, which I felt: 1) made me look like a liar, since I expressly stated $2.34 for shipping (not $6 +) and so told the buyer prior to shipping; and 2) misrepresented me (not to mention eBay itself) and my posting. I did end up refunding the buyer because it was simply unethical for eBay to change anything in my listing and it was the right thing to do. (He never thanked me though. ) In the end, FeeBay cheated the buyer; technically not theft, but like a hand gernade close enough.
So, changing the fee without my knowledge or permisson, plus the stubborn arrogance of the eBay rep, whose only known words in her vocabulary seemed to be that "the computer changed the shipping charge," turned me off to eBay.
David,
You did the right thing, it's a shame the buyer didn't have the common courtesy to Thank you for doing it, there are plenty of sellers that would have just pocketed the extra shipping, Some people's Mommas, just didn't raise them right, then there are those of course that it didn't matter what Momma tried, they just turned out how they did
I will admit that ebay is far from perfect, but it has made some Hard to Find items, not so hard to find .
I have learned to use ebay, and know stratagies that work for me, sometimes I get something that I want for a price that I can live with, some times I just have to wait for the next one to come along.
I am Glad to have ebay as an option, even with the flaws that it does have
If any excess shipping cost - not expressly applied, willingly or not, by the seller - acrues to the seller and not eBay, just why then does eBay increase that shipping cost at all? Where's the benefit to eBay? It's unethical, a bait and switch and dishonest. It should by right piss off both seller and buyer.
Over the years, I've found much more of what I need on Amazon and very little on eBay, with no duplicitous or unethical actions on the part of Amazon or its sellers. This egregious move on eBay's part two years ago has soured me on the company.