The model railroad industry has raised the prices and claim look at the great details you are getting for the money and I will agree with them. Today's models are absolutely beautiful in details. In the past models would be produced and sold with no prototypical equal. You would have and still do have locomotives that roads never owned and any time being produced as models. The real thing never existed. I actually purchase whatever I like the looks of but there are times I like to research and learn the history of certain pieces. The Problem is when you purchase something and it is so prototypically inaccurate but advertised as being are you getting what is advertised. An example would be the LifeLike/Walthers Proto 2000 E8/9's. They are beautiful but not accurate. Not even close. So all the prototype modelers are not getting accuracy and the casual modelers are paying more for trains. Modeling is the point of being a modeler but looking for the middle ground. I hope this is not it.
Hmmm...
.
Maybe you should start up a Free-Lanced Private Roadname. Everything on the STRATTON & GILLETTE is 100% prototypical, and I have found some great bargains.
The only downside of a private roadname is how hard it is to find undecorated models. However, at least when you find them, the details are all correct.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Kevin I thought about that and it would be a lot easier. And it makes sense. But if you enjoy the part of this hobby that is the history it becomes quite frustrating. Part of me likes finding out the history and how things operate. I am and airline brat and I am having to learn railroading from scratch. The only exposure I ever had to it as a kid was the Katy went thru the woods next to our apartment in West Dallas. So I spend a lot of time going whats that? There are a lot of things I am clueless about. Modeling is not so much the problem as researching. I modeled WWII armor mostly German Tamiya kits. I loved Revell model airplanes. My first train's memory still sticks in my mind. It resembled more of a flashlight because it ran on either c or d cells and loaded like one.
Robert
The answer is the same as it was in grade school, middle school, and high school. Do your homework. Part of the reality of being a proto modeler is that as much time is spent on research, reading and looking at pictures, as it is on shopping.
A wealth of information is available from historical society publications and other articles online and in print. You do the best you can.
I model a small part of a large railroad which is not as well served as the Southern Pacific, Santa Fe and others with active historical groups, but it doesn't take too long to find relevant data.
Model companies are selling replicas now that have far better detail and operating characteristics than brass models of 20 years ago, and the variety available is impressive. The time you save with buying an RTR can be spent correcting the few details that may be relevant to your prototype.
In the '70s, '80s, and '90s the drumbeat from the large model magazines was big, big, big -- large layouts, dozens and dozens of cars, fleets of locomotives. People are now rediscovering the fun of more manageable layouts. Look up Rob Spangler and Keith Jordan to see the superficially simple railroads that people are building.
People will say "looks like a boring trackplan" but there is, in fact, a lot of depth and operating potential in their around-the-walls sort of plans.
RMax1The Problem is when you purchase something and it is so prototypically inaccurate but advertised as being are you getting what is advertised. An example would be the LifeLike/Walthers Proto 2000 E8/9's. They are beautiful but not accurate. Not even close.
I'm not real familiar with these, can you be more specific? In what way are they inaccurate? Wrong details?
RMax1 The model railroad industry has raised the prices and claim look at the great details you are getting for the money and I will agree with them. Today's models are absolutely beautiful in details. In the past models would be produced and sold with no prototypical equal. You would have and still do have locomotives that roads never owned and any time being produced as models. The real thing never existed. I actually purchase whatever I like the looks of but there are times I like to research and learn the history of certain pieces. The Problem is when you purchase something and it is so prototypically inaccurate but advertised as being are you getting what is advertised. An example would be the LifeLike/Walthers Proto 2000 E8/9's. They are beautiful but not accurate. Not even close. So all the prototype modelers are not getting accuracy and the casual modelers are paying more for trains. Modeling is the point of being a modeler but looking for the middle ground. I hope this is not it.
So please enlighten us with what is so terribly wrong with the Walthers/Proto E units?
And are these flaws only with the new retooled Walthers versions or do they go back to the original LifeLike versions?
Which then begs the question with ANY of these models - How close is close enough?
Having been doing this for nearly 50 years, and having literally grown up in the hobby shop, and watched these products evolve for the last 50 years, I suspect my views on this are a little more pragmatic.
But again, please enlighten us, heaven forbid there is a rivet missing.........
As for costs, China is no longer a cheap labor third world country - get over it.
Adjusted for inflation, correctly detailed or not, and considering value added improvements, model trains are still cheaper than they were in the 1950's or 1960's.
If your own personal purchasing power has not kept up with inflation, that is a topic for a political forum somewhere - not here.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhich then begs the question with ANY of these models - How close is close enough?
Sheldon,How close? IMHO whatever pleases the modeler after the number one person a modeler needs to please is his/herself.
I'm just as happy has a two headed woodpecker in a bucket of worms switching cars with a BB GP7 and BB and Roundhouse freight cars as I am my Walthers GP7 or my Genesis GP9 and my highly detailed cars..The same holds true for my BB GP35 or my Kato GP35 or any P2K or BB GP38-2s I owned.
If I may and speaking for myself?
I really don't need the latest models to be happy.. I admit I just bought a IM GP10 because I been wanting a GP10 for years and the closest I ever came was a stand in Walthers GP9m that I added IC frog eyes and a Detail Associates Horst paper air filter.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
ATLANTIC CENTRALwhat is so terribly wrong with the Walthers/Proto E units
I am curious about this also. I do not own any E units. I use Stewart F7s to pull my passenger trains, Santa Fe style. However, I have always thought the E units were beautiful, I just prefer F units.
Am I just easily impressed? What is so offensive about these models?
I went back and looked at the Walthers releases versus the Lifelike releases. Here are two examples from the Lifelike releases.
Walthers on recent releases has made the numbering correct for 4 portal units. Lifelike would just put them out there. Still as far as I know there are no units without portals that are correct. At some point units without portals had them but not very long. No one is complain about price.
Walthers on recent releases has made the numbering correct for 4 portal units. Lifelike would just put them out there. Still as far as I know there are no units without portals that are correct. At some point units without portals had them but not very long.
No one is complain about price.
RMax1,
A little basic history, EMD built them with the 4 port hole windows. Different owners, at different times, in different shops removed or altered port holes, grills, all sorts of details.
It would be nearly impossible for the manufacturers to offer every variation that happened to each locomotive throughout its lifetime. By the time AMTRAK got that stuff, it was 20 year old handed down, patched together junk from a long list of railroads happy to be rid of passenger service.
In most cases, it is only recently because of the internet that we now have access to tens of thousands of private photos that only START to tell the story of each loco.
Any shop records of this stuff is likely long gone or in private hands.
Personally, I have a bunch of Proto E units and they are great - BUT, I don't model the AMTRAK era so it is not an issue for me.
In my view, your expectations in this area are unrealistic, yet you want to complain about prices? The models you want will cost three times what they cost now.
Have you ever brought this sort of product to market? Do you have any idea the work or costs required? It is amazing that in the last 20 years these companies have made the quality of detail and number of variations that they have - let alone following every loco through every home shop change.
Tell you what, close up the port holes, brush some silver paint on there, and weather it like the neglected piece of junk in the prototype photo, and no one will ever notice if you did a good job closing up the port holes or not.
Sheldon NO ONE IS COMPLAINING ABOUT PRICES!!! Yet I agree with those that prices are high. What I am saying is that if you advertise "Exquiste Prototype specific Detailing " Make sure the thing actually existed. Another example would be Bachman (Not advertising prototypical) GP40. The AT&SF only had 1 GP40 and it was numbered 2964, not 3509, 3501 or 3500 which they were all GP38's. And yes I can agree with you that it has got to be a monsterous task with all the changes over such a long lifespan. In German armor the life expectancy for a panzer was less than 2 years at most. An E8/9 can span over 50 years. To make matters worse when you shrink the time frame in model trains it causes more problems. So I guess if you like it buy it! If it's close enough to pass, well ok. If you change it to make it closer for your liking even better. All the loose ends are what make this hobby frustrating but it is loaded with a lot of good qualities. History, technology and geography to mention only a few.
RMax1An E8/9 can span over 50 years. To make matters worse when you shrink the time frame in model trains it causes more problems.
As was mention a E8/9 could go through a lot of changes in that 50 years..
There are hundreds of GP9s still working and very few is stock from EMD. Don't confuse the GP8,GP10s,GP11s,GP16s and GP7u with a modified stock GP9 that may have a Horst air filter and blanked out DB fans.
With that said those GP8,GP10s,GP11s,GP16s and the Topeka cab GP7u started life as GP7s,GP9s and GP20s and was heavily rebuilt..
RMax1 Sheldon NO ONE IS COMPLAINING ABOUT PRICES!!! Yet I agree with those that prices are high. What I am saying is that if you advertise "Exquiste Prototype specific Detailing " Make sure the thing actually existed. Another example would be Bachman (Not advertising prototypical) GP40. The AT&SF only had 1 GP40 and it was numbered 2964, not 3509, 3501 or 3500 which they were all GP38's. And yes I can agree with you that it has got to be a monsterous task with all the changes over such a long lifespan. In German armor the life expectancy for a panzer was less than 2 years at most. An E8/9 can span over 50 years. To make matters worse when you shrink the time frame in model trains it causes more problems. So I guess if you like it buy it! If it's close enough to pass, well ok. If you change it to make it closer for your liking even better. All the loose ends are what make this hobby frustrating but it is loaded with a lot of good qualities. History, technology and geography to mention only a few.
Comparing the history of US railroad to WWII German armor is truely apples and oranges.
So I will ask you the question I have asked others who are so hung up on such details - Should the manufacturers not make ANYTHING that they cannot document to September 14, 1973 at 2:35 PM?
And where does that leave the modeler who is more concerned with the "overall impression" if he cannot buy models because the manufacturers don't make them because they cannot documnent them well enough for the 5% or less who are that picky?
I glanced at a few online photos of AMTRAK E units, I did not keep track of unit numbers, but I found every possible port hole combination multiple times. So its not like every AMTRAK E unit had the first three port holes closed up. That would be something a manufacturer might be able to deal with.
Again, accurate reliable data simply does not exist even in the internet age, to acheive that level of correctness on every model produced.
I will give you a reverse example. Some years ago Proto came out with F unitsd for the first time. I ordered an undecorated set for my ATLANTIC CENTRAL, set in 1954. When they came in they had modernized shells with snow plows, fuel tank skirts removed, etc, all changes from the 1960's and 70's. But I wanted "as built" F units for my 1954 time period.
Walthers had no undecorated as built shells to give me or sell me, even though various roadnames they offered had as built shells and details - I sold off the units.
Exactly your complaint in reverse - but I did not get on the internet and complain.
Larry I think you have hit the nail on the head. Whatever you want to put on the rails at any given time, if it makes you happy it's all good. Some parts of this hobby people need to take with a grain of salt. There are somethings you just can't get there from here. I too love my BB stuff. So what if it's not even close to the real things. Those up front I know they are not. Most are just generally what they are. The highly detailed ones bug me and those that just do not exist. I still buy and run what I like and trying to be strictprototype is frustrating. BTW here is what is pulling my new gondola:
the real thing
Inaccurate? Not just possible, but probable given not just the the reality of plastic molding, commercial practicality, and prototype variations (not just by unit, but by year and month -- getting a C&NW E8 "just right" is a challenge given what those units went through or where they really came from, and even having photos of both sides can mislead unless they were taken on the same day).
But in my opinion "not even close" goes too far, given some of the oddities we have put up with over the years. There are some models where the "not even close" phrase hits the nail on the head but the LifeLike/Proto E8 is not (again in my opinion) one of them. It is close.
Dave Nelson
Well, I'm just very confused by your whole post. You saw P2K/Walthers E-8's are inaccurate and you expect better. If I remember this right the E's from P2K came with the correct pilots, headlights, steam generators and many other road specific features. I understaood Walthers carried these details to an even finer degree. I can't see what could be wrong unless you are modeling a specific locomotive in a specific year after half a century of service brought on changes to that locomotive. Portholes, generators, headlights come and go. Sheetmetal changes galore, different handgrabs, fans, engines. I believe the UP E-8/9 fleet now has 645 diesels rather than 567's. The Juniata Terminal Pennsy E's have some unusual DB arrangement on the roof. Just how many changes would Walthers have to make to please everyone with one particular.
Then........you tell us you are totally happy with BB GP-7s and a ratty looking Athearn F-7A unit? I give up!
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works
Nope Roger you're not confused. All the little biing on some models can never make them exact and it's not even worth trying to. I think everyone has answered the question with little parts here and there. There is no way you can model exactness or at least for a given period with todays records and information. So you have to be happy with close enough and if you like the product. The industry that is railroad industry has done things on a need to basis and nothing is cookie cutter standard. I guess this gives a reason to do more research and find out all we can about the prototypes and increase accuracy. So paying for the little fru fru details on a locomotive and calling it prototypical may not be 100% but it is I guess far better than not having them. And yes a better product is most likely worth a higher price. My complaint is that this hobby is frustrating because there is some many different things to deal with, history looks, accuacy, geography and pure time span. Thus I am stuck in the middle like the title of the post going in several directions looking for correct answers and everything is correct but it is not. If that makes sense.
Respectfully, that problem is just in your head.
Again, I have been at this for 49 years. I like detail and I like accuracy, but one has to consider what their real goals are.
My goal, to build a layout that conveys a realistic vision to the the average viewer.
The averager viewer, even one who is in the hobby or knows a lot about trains does not know all these things you are obsessing about. Sure you will find that guy who knows a few of the things that you have let slide - so what?
Also, I do want my models to be reasonably accurate, but it also OK if they "romance" the truth just a little.
In addition to my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL I model the B&O, C&O and WESTERN MARYLAND. They all interchange with my fictional ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
But even with all this great product today, do you realize that no one makes any early 1950's B&O name train passenger cars other than old brass? So what's a guy to do? Scratch build them? I could, I have the info and the skills. I can afford the materials. But the time it would take would prevent me from completing other aspects of my railroad.
So I settle for kit bashed ConCor smooth side shorties - why? Because they convey the "feeling" of the cars the B&O rebuilt into streamliners in their own shops. Without spending a mint on brass or a lifetime building one train.
And, I find that selectively compressed (shorty) passenger cars look much more realistic to me on our model curves - even my 40" radius ones.
So we all make the the compromises we make, relax and learn how to have fun.
Even when locomotives were new, those bought by one railroad might not be exactly the same as those bought by another. Sometimes switchers had no MU, or had MU on one end only. Maybe the horn was different, or maybe one road preferred a passenger pilot over the EMD bulldog pilot. Maybe one wanted a Mars light and the other didn't. There were lots of options. As the equipment aged, modifications were made. Porthole windows were sometimes replaced with solid panels. Around 1952, B&O replaced the streamlined pilots on their E6's and early E8's with shorter bulldog pilots, making the E6's, in particular, look very strange indeed.
You are welcome to ask manufacturers to ensure 100% accuracy on everything. Good luck on that one. As modelers, we have three choices:
1. Accept, without question, whatever the manufacturers produce. Just have fun with it.
2. Do your homework. Find out what the prototype railroad did, and figure out what needs to be done. Then, many will decide that the conversion is too much work, or beyond their capabilities, or too expensive to have somebody do it for them, and they will just accept it as-is (i.e., compromise, as Sheldon wisely suggests) or decide to get rid of the model.
3. Do your homework. Find out what the prototype railroad did, and figure out what needs to be done. Then do it.
You have begun the process for option 2 or 3. Now you can decide which option will be your final choice.
In the end, each of us has to decide what kind of model railroader he wants to be. There is nothing wrong with buying everything off the shelf, putting it in the track, and running it. That's called "running trains". It's not modeling. Modeling is the active process of building something that is a miniature representation of a prototype. Many very good commercial models, such as those you mentioned, can become more accurate with some changes. Sometimes they are minor and sometimes they are major, but the willingness to put out that effort is what distinguishes modelers from folks who "run trains".
If you think there's a problem with diesels, you really need to look at the steam situation. Here's an example: B&O had 30 light USRA Pacifics and 100 light USRA Mikados. BLI, Bachmann, and others produce, or have produced models of those engines. The mass produced models reflect the as-delivered appearance of the engines. The problem rears its ugly head when we reflect that very few of us are modeling the 1918-19 period when these engines were delivered, and B&O made numerous changes over the years. Some manufacturers have tried to accommodate B&O (and (PRR) modelers by putting a high headlight on these engines, and most purchasers appreciate that effort. However, it's not enough for a purist. B&O also changed the running boards and front ladders, changed the sand filler hatches, changed the injectors, added low water alarms, modified or replaced the tenders on most of the Pacifics and a few of the Mikados, added brakeman's extensions to the fireman's side of the cab on the Mikados, and cut back about 12" of the water leg of the tenders of those Mikes. There were other changes, and no two engines were identical by the 1950's, but I have mentioned the major detail differences. Nobody has ever produced a B&O USRA Mikado or Pacific that accurately represents all of the major details of the last years of steam. This is true whether the model is plastic, die cast, brass, or silly putty. The brass Key Limited Pacific came fairly close, and so did the brass Westside Mikado. But to be 100% accurate, they all fall short. That doesn't mean they are bad models. It only means a good modeler can make them better.
It's your choice, but please don't blame a manufacturer, who puts out a good product, for failing to do everything for you.
Tom
ACY Around 1952, B&O replaced the streamlined pilots on their E6's and early E8's with shorter bulldog pilots, making the E6's, in particular, look very strange indeed.
Tom,How about those GP9s C&O sent to the B&O to shore up B&O's motive power problem after C&O took control of the B&O? These Geeps kept their C&O looks and numbers in fact all the B&O did was remove the C and replaced it with a B and removed all "C&O for progress" hearalds and placed a Capitol Dome on the short hood.
http://www.trainweb.org/chessiephotos/photos/GP9/5928b&o.jpg
BRAKIEI'm just as happy has a two headed woodpecker in a bucket of worms switching cars with a BB GP7 and BB and Roundhouse freight cars as I am my Walthers GP7 or my Genesis GP9 and my highly detailed cars..The same holds true for my BB GP35 or my Kato GP35 or any P2K or BB GP38-2s I owned.
I'm with you on that, Larry! I have the mix of 1st and 2nd generation diesels, from BB to Genesis and much in between, and as long as they run well, I'm happy with them. I may some day make the prototypical modifications to some of them, like the BB GP9 that was custom painted for the EL that I acquired back in 1995 at a hobby shop near Steam Town in Scranton PA. Not all of these modifications are what I would call doable, or maybe even worth it, but I can make the model close to the prototype. I do, in fact, have a photo of the prototype with that particuular 1230 road number from the late 60's. these are the kinds of projects that I enjoy: making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
For those interested in the nitty gritty details of E units--
I'm saying this nicely so please don't take it any other way: You need to read the plethora of threads over on the Atlas Rescue Forums about those Proto E Units and also the BLI E units.
Some of the folks might possibly be described as "too particular" but the real deficiencies of those models are discussed thoroughly, along with how those modelers went about rebuilding the diesels to fix the deficiencies--and there are plenty of color photos of models in progress at various stages.
Apparently, there are actually considerable issues with the nose lines, contours, and especially cab front windows, but also the roof details even for "as built" model configurations. To the guys on the Atlas Rescue Forums, there is no one "good" E unit on the market--they all have their various plusses and minuses that have to be fixed to make a model anywhere close to "correct".
As someone who is "too close" to some manufacturers, my opinions were not necessarily welcomed over on those forums...but the modeling they do is indeed very good.
Respectfully submitted--
John Mock
I somewhat understand the "stuck in the middle" argument.
The more you study the more one realizes it is impossible to offer every variant in rtr HO plastic. There were, for example, numerous variations in details of Alco Century diesels, as production changes were ongoing and nearly constant. There are actually more variations than the various phases of Alco Century diesel models identified in the excellent books published by Withers Publishing/Diesel Era. The manufacturers who have made HO models actually took those books, the available drawings, and actual field measurements and discovered even more variations than what was previously known. Some are very subtle, and unique to perhaps only one railroad, and cannot be economically modeled in mass production.
John
I do not know much about train operation, but I do know quite a bit about transit bus operation.
Busses are purchased from GMC (not anymore), Gillig, New Flyer, or NABI. These are put into fleets.
EVERY morning one bus MUST "pull-out" for each route. This is not an option. Failure to meet full pull-out is unacceptable. I assume railroads are under similar requirements. Routes must be met...period.
This results in continuous "shop modification" of busses. Exhaust diffusers get pulled off "down" busses to get something else "on route". Body panels get swapped. Bike racks get shuffled about. Wheels get swapped and mis-matched on a single unit.
This happens daily.
To try to model a particular bus, say Dade County #5023, would be impossible. You would need photographs of the bus from all sides, front, rear, and top, and all taken on the same day. Busses get repainted, repaired, or touched up. Usually at about 700,000-800,000 miles the bus gets a major shop rebuild that includes some updates. Don't forget about manufacturer campaigns and recalls. These will change ther appearance of the bus also.
What if you were a hobby manufacturer making a model of Dade County #5023? The only real option is to model that bus as delivered. Eveything else is just speculation.
Model Railroad manufacturers need to make the same choice.
PRR8259 For those interested in the nitty gritty details of E units-- I'm saying this nicely so please don't take it any other way: You need to read the plethora of threads over on the Atlas Rescue Forums about those Proto E Units and also the BLI E units. Some of the folks might possibly be described as "too particular" but the real deficiencies of those models are discussed thoroughly, along with how those modelers went about rebuilding the diesels to fix the deficiencies--and there are plenty of color photos of models in progress at various stages. Apparently, there are actually considerable issues with the nose lines, contours, and especially cab front windows, but also the roof details even for "as built" model configurations. To the guys on the Atlas Rescue Forums, there is no one "good" E unit on the market--they all have their various plusses and minuses that have to be fixed to make a model anywhere close to "correct". As someone who is "too close" to some manufacturers, my opinions were not necessarily welcomed over on those forums...but the modeling they do is indeed very good. Respectfully submitted-- John Mock
John, do you know the meaning of "expert"? Someone who knows more and more about less and less........
These models are 1/87 the size of real life, and that is what some of these guys need......a life.
Still very happy to model "close enough from 3 feet as they roll by"........and having great fun despite how much I know about real trains.......
ATLANTIC CENTRALSome years ago Proto came out with F unitsd for the first time. I ordered an undecorated set for my ATLANTIC CENTRAL, set in 1954. When they came in they had modernized shells with snow plows, fuel tank skirts removed, etc, all changes from the 1960's and 70's. But I wanted "as built" F units for my 1954 time period.
I had the same problem with the Athearn 40 foot Airslide hopper cars. They offered lots of variations for the specific prototypes to be accurate, but the undecorated model I ordered came with only "late" options that were not appropriate for the 1954 SGRR.
I sent an email to Athearn, and they sent me the parts I needed. They did not need to do that, and now I can use the car. That made me very happy.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL These models are 1/87 the size of real life, and that is what some of these guys need......a life. Sheldon
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
trwroute ATLANTIC CENTRAL These models are 1/87 the size of real life, and that is what some of these guys need......a life. Sheldon Sheldon, while I agree with a lot of things you say, this is a silly comment. So, it seems, that anyone that takes it upon themselves to make a model look better, needs to get a life? You've never kitbashed anything? Come on...
I kit bash lots of stuff, I don't obsess over the nose contours of F and E units down to a few inches, or exact deminsions of windshield mullions.
That's the kind of stuff I'm refering to. You will never convince me that much of that can be noticed by eye once you get into models as good as Proto, Intermountain, etc.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL You will never convince me that much of that can be noticed by eye once you get into models as good as Proto, Intermountain, etc.
You will never convince me that any of this stuff matters, or can be noticed, once a layout starts running. When the trains are moving, suddenly all that stuff you pick out in photographs no longer matters.
I doubt many people who obsess over such things have a running layout.
Sheldon,
My ratty F unit started life as a BB undec and I had nothing better to do so I spray painted it Italian Gloss Red. I started messing with the top and a black marks alot marker. Hmm.... looks familiar??? So I sprayed it with dull coat and boom. It actually looks better in person and close to the MKT F. While I like detail if I am paying for it. This one is a mistake that I am happy with regardless of detail. Once I finish playing with it it may look better. If it doesn't I still like it.