BRAKIE my long time friend..Be careful who you call old folk because if memory serves you're not exactly a spring chicken yourself.
Russell
The LHS i go to is 70 miles away and i support it and shop MB Klines also.
riogrande5761Go to Moloco, ExactRail, Tangent, Athearn, Intermountain websites and you can see models in large hi-res photo's well lit - I'd argue you'd need reading glasses and good light to see those same items at that hobby shop - wait, I don't have a hobby shop to go see those items. Good thing we have the internet these days.
Jim,A photoshop enhanced photo of a perfect model may not match want you may end up with. You've read the complaints as same as I and know very few brands has escaped scrutiny of the modelers including some of the brands you named..I have no doubts the forth coming ST SD40-2 will catch some ire from the modelers.
With today's preorders you may not see the model for 2-3 years or it may be canceled.
Alco Models,Trains Inc and Hallmark released brass diesels every month as did other brass manufactuers...See it in the current MR buy at your LHS today. Same for Athearn's SW7(called SW1500) or any new Athearn product.
And for the record I was mail ordering long before the raise of the internet and when it arrived I readily accepted on line shopping due to a lack of a LHS.
And Jim my long time friend..Be careful who you call old folk because if memory serves you're not exactly a spring chicken yourself.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I'm with Jim on this one. These are the good old days.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
riogrande5761 ATLANTIC CENTRAL OK, the products were not like today, but what there was, you could actually buy almost anytime you wanted it. Well, you could buy from a very small selection locally back then or now using the internet order a much wider variety of products. Yes, I realize the current generation is an instant gratification people, but if you don't mind waiting around 4 days or so, that wide variety of items is delivered to your door. No waiting, no vapor ware, no preorders........ I'd gladly wait a few days to get 50x the products offered today than get it "now" and only have a small selection - most of it generic. Now that you jogged my memory, I remember vaporware back in the 1980's it was quite popular; not so much now - 'cept maybe Walthers which is famous for canceling announcements. But, the hobby was different then, it was much more about building stuff yourself, kit bashing, etc. Great of course if you had the skill and copious amounts of time. If your skill wasn't so hot well I guess sucks to be one of those. An exclusive hobby isn't necessarily a good thing - and what I mean by that are the relatively few that have the "chops" to built detailed models yourself. This whole idea of "out of the box RTR perfection" simply did not exist. You can't miss what you have never had....... Sheldon You make it sound like a good thing. Ah, but now that I have had, I would miss it. Look, I'm oldish but I know a good thing when I see it and I'll argue till the cows come home that what we have now, with all it's warts and vagaries, is the best of all worlds, detailed RTR stuff and plenty of kits and everything in between. Honestly, I can't see what is bad about that and I'm a reasonable person.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL OK, the products were not like today, but what there was, you could actually buy almost anytime you wanted it.
OK, the products were not like today, but what there was, you could actually buy almost anytime you wanted it.
Well, you could buy from a very small selection locally back then or now using the internet order a much wider variety of products. Yes, I realize the current generation is an instant gratification people, but if you don't mind waiting around 4 days or so, that wide variety of items is delivered to your door.
No waiting, no vapor ware, no preorders........
I'd gladly wait a few days to get 50x the products offered today than get it "now" and only have a small selection - most of it generic.
Now that you jogged my memory, I remember vaporware back in the 1980's it was quite popular; not so much now - 'cept maybe Walthers which is famous for canceling announcements.
But, the hobby was different then, it was much more about building stuff yourself, kit bashing, etc.
Great of course if you had the skill and copious amounts of time. If your skill wasn't so hot well I guess sucks to be one of those. An exclusive hobby isn't necessarily a good thing - and what I mean by that are the relatively few that have the "chops" to built detailed models yourself.
This whole idea of "out of the box RTR perfection" simply did not exist. You can't miss what you have never had....... Sheldon
Sheldon
You make it sound like a good thing. Ah, but now that I have had, I would miss it.
Look, I'm oldish but I know a good thing when I see it and I'll argue till the cows come home that what we have now, with all it's warts and vagaries, is the best of all worlds, detailed RTR stuff and plenty of kits and everything in between. Honestly, I can't see what is bad about that and I'm a reasonable person.
Jim, I don't disagree with any of that. And at my position in the hobby, I can take fullest advantage, since I don't need the "support" that many people miss from the local shop.
In my old guy view, it is better today in some ways, and worse in other ways.
And, since I am a self involved introvert, I'm not real invested one way or the other in that issue of other peoples ability or inability to build models.......I can, so I do.
If the industry meets those needs, and it helps my modeling fine.
But I'm not in the version of this hobby that requires that every freight car be a blueprint perfect RTR model that costs $50.
I have few, but their existance does not define the hobby for me.
So lots of that "stuff" from back in the day still runs on my layout, and will to the end.
Understand, I have a lot of prototype knowledge, I have been studying trains and building models since age 10, 50 years come May. An I once started to become the ultimate rivet counter.........and trains stopped being fun.
So I found the balance that makes it fun for me.
But the really great shops back in the day, were really cool places. Because it was all right there. Some of the best shops had incredable inventories.....you could actually touch them....
TheGamp As someone new to the hobby it's much nicer to be able to see things in person and pick them up than to have to buy everything online.
As someone new to the hobby it's much nicer to be able to see things in person and pick them up than to have to buy everything online.
Go to Moloco, ExactRail, Tangent, Athearn, Intermountain websites and you can see models in large hi-res photo's well lit - I'd argue you'd need reading glasses and good light to see those same items at that hobby shop - wait, I don't have a hobby shop to go see those items. Good thing we have the internet these days.
Look, I know the older generation misses the hobby shop yada yada, but the younger generation works with computers, tablets, smart phones and any company or business will tell you they put the lions share of their advertising money at the young fold between the ages of teens thru 30's. Thats where the major business is and that generation uses websites and buys on-line. And, older folks like me who have adapted also buy online. It's pretty much the way it's going to be as far as I can see.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
azrail Athearn was notorious for long waits between production runs in the 70s and 80s, the same with Atlas locomotives.
Athearn was notorious for long waits between production runs in the 70s and 80s, the same with Atlas locomotives.
That's a matter of perspective and subject to specific items. I worked in two shops from 1970 until 1982, and most of the Athearn line was pretty readily available. The second half of that time, in store#2, I managed the train department and did the buying, we had a nice stock of Athearn.
Later in the eighties, the economy slowed, and production runs were spotty at times. But overall, product availablity was good.
You make it sound like a good thing. Ah, but now that I have had the good stuff, I would miss it.
As someone new to the hobby it's much nicer to be able to see things in person and pick them up than to have to buy everything online. There are two stores I've been to within an hour's drive. I get that ready-to-run is their bread and butter, but the owner of the store with the smaller inventory has been very encouraging to my DIY approach and has talked me out of buying things that wouldn't further my interest. The larger store's staff couldn't be bothered to do any more than unlock the case with the trucks and couplers for me to look at before leaving to tag-team hard sell a young couple on a RTR sound-and-smoke-equipped steam loco. Guess they don't need my business.
riogrande5761 BRAKIE Jim,As far as I a concern those was the good old days being a teenager raised in a railroad family and surrounded by 5 major railroads Railfanning is a TOTALLY different deal and duh, for sure I wish I could jump in a time machine and railfan 1970's! and around 15 hobby shops.. Ah yes, but what you could buy in those hobby shops, thats the rub vs. today! I stand by that one 100% Now where is my Staples Button. =P
BRAKIE Jim,As far as I a concern those was the good old days being a teenager raised in a railroad family and surrounded by 5 major railroads
Jim,As far as I a concern those was the good old days being a teenager raised in a railroad family and surrounded by 5 major railroads
Railfanning is a TOTALLY different deal and duh, for sure I wish I could jump in a time machine and railfan 1970's!
and around 15 hobby shops..
Ah yes, but what you could buy in those hobby shops, thats the rub vs. today! I stand by that one 100% Now where is my Staples Button. =P
This whole idea of "out of the box RTR perfection" simply did not exist. You can't miss what you have never had.......
Dave, I like stores too, but there are not many good ones left for most of us.
I have been to Milwaukee, and to Walthers, nice city.
Obviously Walthers has a big advantage as a retail store.....just like MB Klein does here in Baltimore, or TrainWorld, or Bowser's retail shop.
There in lies the problem, this business is not big enough to support those kinds of stores near everyone, and with discounts available, most people will not pay retail price.
Walthers is a good company, I buy lots of their products. But going way back to the 80's, when they bought Train Minature and got into the plastic freight car business, they started to give Athearn the short end of the stick in terms of catalog placement, promotion, etc.
And Athearn had other distribution problems they needed to clean up. Going to single point distribution leveled prices, got rid of "basement" wholesale dealers, and saved money, keeping prices lower.
While many people felt as you did about that move by Athearn, in fact it was just the opposite. Single point distribution saved Athearn.
You should check out their stuff, they are still one of the leaders in this business.....
We the customers are being buffeted about by some pretty strong winds. Me, I like stores and do not order much of anything by "mail" (in quotes because my wife does all the time, and often the deliveries are just by folks driving their cars, maybe Uber drivers, and rarely arrive by US mail). As a consequence I never buy CDs any more because there are no more record stores. I still buy trains at stores but that is because my LHS is the Walthers showroom in Milwaukee. Pretty quaint, eh?
I realize my judgment about things like this is flawed and outdated. I thought Athearn/Horizon was shooting themselves in the foot when they broke off the relationship with Walthers and went their own way. Evidently they have thrived without Walthers. (But since Walthers is my LHS as noted above, I never buy Athearn any more and have no idea about their offerings).
The guys who actually have their money on the line in terms of inmporting or manufacturing (Scaletrains is just an example) have obviously decided whether stores fit their business plan.
Dave Nelson
ACY On another thread I recently listed several things I like about dealing with the LHS. I won't repeat all that stuff here, but I will add that my LHS is cosponsoring a regional NMRA meet next week, including some or all of the rental of the local fire hall for the event. You don't get public service like that from any mail order dealer, and it deserves support. Tom
On another thread I recently listed several things I like about dealing with the LHS. I won't repeat all that stuff here, but I will add that my LHS is cosponsoring a regional NMRA meet next week, including some or all of the rental of the local fire hall for the event. You don't get public service like that from any mail order dealer, and it deserves support.
Tom
Agreed. My LHS is dealing with MTH for me, that alone is priceless. I've since started trying to shop there more often vs online, as the $20 difference on a $200 engine isn't going to bankrupt me.
We've lost two hobby shops around here in the last 3 months. One closed in Feb and the other will be closing Apr. 17th.
The former I never shopped at the second I did spend some money at. Both owners decided it was time to call it quits and retire.
So now I am back down to one, it is local and has been here since 1956. I've used it since I was born. My Grandpa bought stuff for me there and my Dad has bought stuff for my kids there. Prices for most items are comparable/close to the "big boys" on most items. If there is an issue with products he will go to bat for you and call them while your standing in the store to sort it out. He gets a lot of my business. He also does not sit on orders w/ the exception of a few manufacturers where he may wait a week or two, but he tells you that up front.
I won't lie and say I don't scrounge bargains and sales, because I do, but some stuff your not going to get unless you order it and he gets a good amount of that business from me.
I love train shows to. I teach my 7 year old how to barter.
Our LHS has NOS on the shelves that has been there since 1976 when it opened.
Instead of discounting it and selling it off and use the money to buy new stock, they have actually raised the prices.
I'm talking a lot of kits of companies that are now defunct!They won't even negotiate on old model railroad kits.
I can go on Ebay and buy the same NOS at about 1/2 the price or less.
Have it shipped to my front door saving a long drive in traffic and gasoline.
They usually don't have what I am looking for and always say they can "order it".
But their credit rating is so bad that creditors often will not ship new stock.
So I can order it myself online and have it shipped to my front door and save a 50 mile round trip into town and back , pay no sales tax and save at least 4 gallons of gasoline
They concentrate on helicopters and RC cars.
They no longer sell balsa model airplane kits
They do have a website but their inventories as far as trains sold online is very limited and their other prices are always higher than other prices for the same products sold online.
I seem to have the best of both worlds. The 'local' brick and mortar hobby shop that I frequent is a mere 4 1/2 hours away, but I can get there in a few minutes as often as I want. That's because they have a great website in addition to a real live hobby store. I do manage to visit in person once a year when we are birding in the area.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
riogrande5761Yes. Fairly often I read topics in forums - ModelRailroadForums in particular - where some of the old timers seem to have dreamy nostalgia fests about, what they call, the good old days. But when you look at the big picture, it really looks like tunnel vision because you have to ignore a lot of things to get away with this.
Jim,As far as I a concern those was the good old days being a teenager raised in a railroad family and surrounded by 5 major railroads and around 15 hobby shops..
The real tunnel vision comes from those that thinks today's models came easy..We started the fuss toward today's models back in the 60s and wasn't for Life Like introducing their P2K brand in the late 80s I doubt if any of the manufacturers would have since every one of them said it couldn't be done in plastic.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL ACY On another thread I recently listed several things I like about dealing with the LHS. I won't repeat all that stuff here, but I will add that my LHS is cosponsoring a regional NMRA meet next week, including some or all of the rental of the local fire hall for the event. You don't get public service like that from any mail order dealer, and it deserves support. Tom Agreed, and similar to my points in that other thread, that is great if you actually have a LHS - a 45 minute to 1-1/2 hour drive is not "local" to me. Sheldon
Agreed, and similar to my points in that other thread, that is great if you actually have a LHS - a 45 minute to 1-1/2 hour drive is not "local" to me.
I guess it's not quite local for you, but if I understand correctly, this event might be only about an hour's drive from you, and probably worth the trip if you can fit it into your schedule. The LHS is across the street from the Fire Hall.
rrinker Let me tell you, those "golden old days" weren;t always so golden as we like to remember, --Randy
Let me tell you, those "golden old days" weren;t always so golden as we like to remember,
--Randy
Yes. Fairly often I read topics in forums - ModelRailroadForums in particular - where some of the old timers seem to have dreamy nostalgia fests about, what they call, the good old days. But when you look at the big picture, it really looks like tunnel vision because you have to ignore a lot of things to get away with this. But thats easy for those who have narrow scope that conveniently omits the lions share of products produced in the last 15 or so years. Anyway, it's a free world as they say and we can all choose which fantasy world we prefer.
PennCentral99 maxman It's been at least a week, so it must be time for one of these threads again.
maxman It's been at least a week, so it must be time for one of these threads again.
It's been at least a week, so it must be time for one of these threads again.
I can't say the same - no, beating a dead horse is SOP or modus operandi here. More likely I tend to be surprised when more than a week or two goes by without one of the dead horse topics being started.
I was born and raised in Florida, so there were no hills to walk up and down and no snow to not walk up and down in. And I spent my teenage years hanging out with girls who were not shy about walking around in their underwear. Sorry. I guess I missed out on a lot of stuff to kvetch about.
LINK to SNSR Blog
Never shopped at a LHS as a kid, no money and any money I did earn had to go help support the family.
Fast forward 60 years and I still don't shop at a LHS. Never have. I get all my trains from online, shows, etc. it seems to be the best way for me.
olson185I want to help them stay in business but for lack of selection, lack of labelling, lack of variety, lack of customer engagement, lack of computerized...anything, they make it hard for me to part with my money. In an era of 'from home' online purchases, it seems, they're trying to be irrelevant.
I encourage everyone to support their LHS, precisely because I expect the LHS to be all of the things we mention. But, when they fail at the basics, why bother? If I can't get what I want at an LHS, it might as well be a nail salon.
The landlord raised the rent and pushed my LHS owner into retirement, and a terrific shop was gone, but I bought things there, from rail joiners to locomotives, for years before that. In return, I got great service and a warm smile every time I walked in.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Let me tell you, those "golden old days" weren;t always so golden as we like to remember, at least in some palces. I'm 50, so a bit younger than some of the other old-timers posting, but I remember going to the one and only local hobby shop when I was a kid. My Dad went there before I was born, and continued to go there. It was always neat looking around, they had a lot more than just trains. My first palstic model kit came from there, as did plenty of things on our layout. But in those days we also had department stores like Two Guys where seasonally they would sell Life Like, Tyco, and AHM train stuff - and plenty of our rolling stock came from there as well. AHM always seeming a step above Tyco and Life Like, except our old late 50's/early 60's Tyco/Mantua stuff.
Later on the hobby shop moved out of downtown, where frankly it was too dangerous until the whole area got cleaned up, probably 15 years after they moved out. They moved to - much closer to my house. As in, I could ride my bike there. So I spent a lot of time there, and when I went from HO to N, I got a lot of stuff there. But it took a while, as they tended to sell at full MSRP. At 10-12 years old, not being savvy to the concept of mail ordering, I'd only look at the ads in MR and wish I could afford a certain loco, but the only thing I could get for the same price at the LHS was something like a little 4 wheel switcher. Eventually I saw an ad in MR for another small shop, this one I neede my Mom to drive me to. This was more or less a guy operating out of his basement, but strictly trains. He offered a fairely steep discount on stuff, so finally I was able to afford the Bachmann Northern I always wanted - and even built my layout with far larger than usual radius curves, at least for a small island layout. That however was a huge disappointment because it ran like garbage and no amount of tweaking could fix it up. That's one of the reasons I quit N scale and went back to HO, even the cheap stuff in HO ran reasonably well. This being right before the Atlas/Kato N scale diesels appeared and more or less changed N scale forever.
That other LHS, they went more or less full on into craft stuff. Less and less trains, or models of any sorts. And finally just shut down for good. There was no LHS for a number of years, but at that time I was more into computers. Somewhere around, I think it was senior year in HS, a guy opened up a shop even closer to my house than the other one had been. Just a basic metal pole building, on a piece of his Dad's farm. My friend and I used to hang out there a good bit when it first opened, lots of empty space in the building. Not a lot of trains, but plenty of RC cars and planes, even a 1/32 slot car track, and every plstic model kit you could think of. Freshman year of college, a couple of other guys on my floor wanted to get into RC cars, and since I was the local I took them to this shop. That summer I also bought my own RC car from them. Still would hang out all the time, I knew the owner and all the help. Some time after college, they opened up a second location, which had a lot more trains. At the time it was convenient for me to go to the second location, and I bought much of my stuff there when I got back intot he hobby. The mall closed down, they were going to make it some sort of "health services complex" with a gym, doctors offices, and so forth. Yeah that never happened, but they forced out all the stores. The original location of the hobby shop expanded, and added on a second building that was even bigger than the first, and the combined all the inventory of the stores. This was more than 25 years ago, and some of that inventory is still on the shelved. The train area is stacked as high as I can possibly reack (and I'm 6') in narrow aisles with poor lighting. I STILL find things I've missed on umpteen prior visits. I rarely go there any more though, everything is at full MSRP. The owner, I haven't seen him in years. The guy who used to be the one and only helper back in the early days now manages the place, he still remembers me, and if he's there will give me 10% off the marked prices, but other than that, there's not much reason to go there unless you are into RC cars - they have a large staff that seems to know what they are doing when it comes to those. They have two older retired guys who work a couple days a week that actually know trains, at least one of them has a decent layout of his own, but that's pretty much it. They have what's on the shelves, and usually get 1 or 2 of the latest release of something in. They will order stuff from Walthers, but don't expect it any time soon, they sit on orders until they have a bunch and then make a big order to Walthers. DCC stuff, they even told me don't bother. They didn't want to become dealers for anyone, so they order it all from Walthers. So that just adds the distributor markup, you can get things from another B&M shop that is say a Digitrax dealer for less, let alone the various internet options.
So that's the story of the awesome LHS situation in my area. Is it any wonder that anything I didn't get on eBay probably came from MB Klein? Those that were able to adapt have been able to thrive even in this changed world. Those who insist on keeping things the same as they've always been have withered and died.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL At age 14 I pedaled to my job at the local hobby shop - up and down several hills - about 5 miles...... Sheldon
At age 14 I pedaled to my job at the local hobby shop - up and down several hills - about 5 miles......
Rich
Alton Junction