SeeYou190About the article in this month's Model Railroader... The scenes all look great. They are definitely realistic to look at. However, to my eye, they are boring and lack character. Not my style, but that is fine.
First and foremost I'm not the type to criticize another's work but,for the sake this topic I will mention this..
When I look at a prototype photo I look beyond the locomotive and study the surroundings and because of that I see things the majority misses like the details like a switchman's shanty in the background,types of cars in the train or yard,stack of old ties,scenery type etc.
Here's the end results..I gain knowledge and see the common errors in model scenery.As a example perfect stacks of ties..There will be untouched stacks but,one should have stacks that is missing ties simply because a section gang might be replacing four or five bad ties or replacing ties at a road crossing during the repair of the crossing..
Another example is freight sitting on the docks of industries which is a no-no because it's open to theft.Even a rejected skid (pallet) is taken inside. A rejected skid is one that has damage boxes. Where I worked as a forklift driver photos would be taken before the skid with damage boxes was removed from the trailer and I would place it in our reject area for inspection and repacking after we got the go ahead from our clients buyers.
In short some studying of photos can and will improve the overall looks and believability of a layout. Of course much is to be gain by paying attention during a railfan trip. I prefer the old State and US highways over the interstates because you see more.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Well for me at the end of day it is all about the trains. My layout is only the place to run them. I started out trying for more but my kids and their friends have taken a little toll on the layout, as has relaying part of it to bigger radii, and I don't like ballasting Peco turnouts at all. Hopefully I will get scenery repaired...I am fine with never being an MMR because I just like playing with choo choos.
Kevin, I agree. Only 2 fellow model railroaders have ever seen my layout also. Both of them know I got much farther with a layout and scenery than either of them...so they are not critical.
Also I have been accused of defending manufacturers too much and have been falsely called a paid shill. Let me be clear in that I have seen the damage a few overly critical comments posted online can do to a manufacturer. Unsold or slow selling items mean other products don't get made or certainly not as readily. I have seen manufacturers called out in error when they got things correct, but apologies seem to be few and far between in online train forums and then the damage is already done and sales are slowed or lost anyway.
Perception is reality...sometimes all too true...Since I am far from perfect I try to be more careful about what words I type also.
OK... Here it is from me...
.
Only 2, that is right TWO, fellow model railroaders have ever seen the Stratton and Gillette Railroad. As a general rule, model railroaders are jack-asses when they see someone else's work. I have another hobby, historical wargaming. My historical wargaming friends all love the railroad, and are amazed by it. The model railroaders look at my work and immediately start pointing things out.
Let me be clear... The Stratton and Gillette has character. Think Malcolm Furlow or John Allen. I added extra exhaust stacks to my SD-7 because I did not like how it looked with only two. I put an EMD fan on top my Train Master because I did not like the fan it came with. I put square hatches on my F&C Carbon Black hopper because I did not like the rounds ones. That kind of stuff gets Kudos from wargamers, but some rivet counting factoid embracer comes over and points something like that out trying to sound intelligent. I know it is wrong, and I do not care.
About the article in this month's Model Railroader... The scenes all look great. They are definitely realistic to look at. However, to my eye, they are boring and lack character. Not my style, but that is fine.
You should never critcize a layout if you have not built one. If someone asks for help you should try to help them find enjoyment, not make a chore out of a hobby.
I do not know why wargamers always seem to encourage their fellows, but model railroaders are so quick to criticize. Both hobbies are rooted in history. Pointing out that your opponents tri-corner hats are painted innacurately will never make friends across the game table. Newcomers to wargaming are universally encouraged. Wargaming conventions are also a lot more fun. Model Railroaders could learn a lot from the wargaming community.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
“I want people who I trust and can back up what they say.” Bear wrote: Yeah well that is a bonus and while on the forum there are definitely those who have over time consistently proved, at least to me, that their criticism is not only valid but presented in a non-mean spirited manner, I’d be foolish to automatically disregard the worth of newcomers to the forum. Healthy criticism can develop better modelling.
Bear wrote: Yeah well that is a bonus and while on the forum there are definitely those who have over time consistently proved, at least to me, that their criticism is not only valid but presented in a non-mean spirited manner, I’d be foolish to automatically disregard the worth of newcomers to the forum.
Healthy criticism can develop better modelling.
I'm a big fan of healthy criticism, too. Criticism is the sort of stuff that's a lot like oil. A little can really help a mechanism work correctly. More will only make a mess.
First, anyone and everyone's work isn't perfect, isn't always tidied up completely, isn't always aimed at appearing in a national publication, or as was very importantly pointed out, wasn't taken from the intended POV. I will certainly vouch for having posted stuff with all those sorts of deficits. I try to have something worth looking at and I am one of those who belives more in the journey than the destination. My layout is never complete, but I'm always looking for fun new ways to get there. Anyone up for drones?
Second, I do a decent job when I get things to the point of looking fair to middlin'. I suppose that's limited the impact or experience on me of of the comments I've heard made about others work that I found truly cringeworthy. The comments,, not the work that they wrere made about, just to be clear.
In consequence, if I offer criticism, and I do from time to time, it's usually something very specific and focused and I do it in the gentlest way possible. It's focused on helping someone who seems to have missed out as of yet unkonwn to them piece of common knowledge. It's not that I want to paint myself as an expert, it's that I want to share something valuable that the other person would be very likely to also find value in.
Remember that word "share" because if your criticism comes out sounding like anything much more than that, it may become a difficult conversation that doesn't result in much if any sharing.
The internet has brought many new forms of sharing. Some folks think this degrdes the "quality" of what's shared. On the other hand, it's clear when more folks share more, you see more and find a better appreciation for what's both common and extraordinary. Both are important to the hobby.
True, there are exceptions to this where one can be more frank. Contest and shows offer various ways in which this is done. It's notable that while the format and goals of these events can range from formal rules exercises like NMRA judging to the RPM fests to the good ol' local train show where everyone drags something in, just because that's how you show what you've been up to. These work because they help people more easily endure something that's not all that welcome unless it's invited under such specific circumstances in most cultures, criticism.
Just to be gentle here, it's notable how some folks come across as knowing a lot and wanting to make sure you know it, too. Then there's the connusuier(sp) of facts, which is a necessary part of the hobby, but which can easily become overbearing. Slow down, take a deep breathe and consider again how you may be perceived -- because all the knowledge in the world fails to impress if the presentation is a big turnoff.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Larry:
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Now,let's flip the coin over and see the dark side.
We have no idea who is sitting behind the screen and that person could be a kid that is proud of his work even though it not quite there yet..Send the kid negativity feed back because well,fill the blank with your thought.
Then maybe the modeler is handicap physically or mentally and doing his very best work and is proud of his accomplishment and just wants to share photos of his work with his forum friends...
Who are we to set in judgment of another's work when we have no clue what the person is? I do well to please myself and I'm sure enough not worried about pleasing anybody else.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
dehusmanpeople really don't want that much feedback. Most people post on these lists to have their work affirmed, not to have it analyzed.
dehusmanA lot of people take a dicussion of technique or of comparison to prototype as a personal affront to them.
+1
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
CGW121And asks questions in such a way as to make them seem like the answer is my idea.
A word ninja.
Criticism carrys a negative conotation, which is sad. Diplomacy is said to be the art of telling some one to go to hell in such a way as to make them look forward to the trip. A fellow modeler has done a lot in giving me suggustions on improving my skills. And asks questions in such a way as to make them seem like the answer is my idea.
I have a niece who is a director, producer and actress in NYC. When she was here for Xmas she wanted to see the progress on the layout from the prior Xmas. She said it was so artistic. I mentioned some of the errors and she said basically who cares. If you give the illusion of what you are trying to convey, you've done a good job. She said critics are a dime a dozen and mostly uneducated in what you are trying to do.
Unless asked I would never point out to a modeler mistakes in era as I know that person is trying their best. I once had a guy over who kept looking at my woodchip pile saying the Mosinee Papermill never had one. After showing him a Google Earth photo he then said well you modeled the pile too high. He hasn't been back.
TomO
CGW121 ... What it seems like what you are saying is,is that you should be able to offer your advice and if they dont take it well it is their fault.
What it seems like what you are saying is,is that you should be able to offer your advice and if they dont take it well it is their fault.
What I mean is that the first part of any social interaction is courtesy. The person may not want feedback of any kind, but the way to find out is to ask.
"Would you be open to some comments or feedback on what you have accomplished so far?"
"Not really."
"Okay, that's fine. I think you have done a lot of good modeling there, and you should be proud. I'd like to see it when you have gotten more done to see how your plan is taking shape."
And it concludes there. I wouldn't dream of insisting that he listen to me criticise his work.
Or...
"Had you thought of hiding that gap at the base of the structure with maybe some bushes, or some flowers, maybe a sidewalk?"
"No."
And it ends there. He knows that I would not leave it that way, but his autonomy and pleasure in the hobby is only threatened if he is being dishonest about the gap; it really does bother him, or does now that I have mentioned it, or it's of no importance.
Courtesy...we treat each other as friends, colleagues, like-minded sufferers...whatever. But always with courtesy. It wasn't like that too often on this forum when I first joined in 2005.
CGW121 I think what selector may be saying, at least how I interpereted it, is that if I offered my opinion/advice on how you could do it better, and you ignore me, its not really an issue with me. Way to often peoples advice isnt worth a bucket of warm spit. I want people who I trust and can back up what they say. Advice from an idiot is worthless
I think what selector may be saying, at least how I interpereted it, is that if I offered my opinion/advice on how you could do it better, and you ignore me, its not really an issue with me.
Way to often peoples advice isnt worth a bucket of warm spit. I want people who I trust and can back up what they say. Advice from an idiot is worthless
And calling people idiots is counterproductive to our hobby. If a comment isnt worthwhile or you know it to be incorrect, just say "thanks" and carry on.
If someone has a suggestion on how I can improve my modeling, I make note of it, either mentally or on paper. I later go back and research the info they provided to see if it is accurate. If its not I disregard, if it is, I evaluate cost to implement the change vs visual or accuracy value added and difficulty/feasability of doing so. If it matches my goals and is feasible, you might see something change on my modules.
You are never too old to learn, and even random strangers can bring up good points.
There have been a lot of valid points made, so I'm going to pick on one specific example to show how to sugar-coat a critical comment.
"That's a fine looking (house, barn, chicken coop...) you have there. Are you planning to put weeds and undergrowth right up to it, or do you have some kind of foundation in mind?"
Note that a friendly question that suggests possible answers is very unlikely to be taken as criticism. It disconnects the modeler from 'blame' for the problem, and encourages a productive reply. The same idea can be used for poor trackwork, derailment-prone rolling stock or anything else readily obvious.
Of course, this presumes a knowledge of appropriate 'fixes' on the part of the critical observer, as well as an ability to suggest, rather than hand down a stone tablet from Zion. I have discovered that a good percentage of blunt critics are relatively clueless when it comes to appropriate corrective action. (I'd love to see THEIR layouts - assuming they have layouts.)
And then there are the people who percieve themselves and all their works as perfect...
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I used to work for a manufacturer. Most people have no idea how much work and actual engineering goes into the toys we call "models".
I will just touch on the op comments about handrails: The various manufacturers used to use tough flexible delrin, but it was hard to paint. Especially where 2 colors were used the paint film thickness on the handrails became quite a lot. It had to be for the paint to adhere. Or the delrin was dyed but often the dye did not exactly match paint color. So, many complained.
The manufacturers listened and gave us what we wanted: thinner handrails that hold a thinner film of paint and can even be glued when broken, but that came at a price. Now the handrails of multiple manufacturers are way too easily broken. Now people complain about those handrails being too delicate.
So others have learned to make their own handrails out of metal wire...or others of us just buy brass.
Best handrails ever done in HO plastic: Lifelike Proto 2000 Alco RS-27. They were very nearly scale and are almost indestructible delrin.
John
maxman CGW121 What I was talking about are the rivit counters and know it alls Well, it is rivEt, not rivIt, but since you didn't ask, never mind.
CGW121 What I was talking about are the rivit counters and know it alls
Well, it is rivEt, not rivIt, but since you didn't ask, never mind.
LOL never have been very good at spelling but thank you.
CGW121What I was talking about are the rivit counters and know it alls
Way to often peoples advice isnt worth a bucket of warm spit.
And here I thought it was just the Vice Presidency. https://www.cah.utexas.edu/news/press_release.php?press=press_bucket
I want people who I trust and can back up what they say.
Here's an idea. Only ask people whose advice you do trust. It vastly improves the signal to noise ratio.
Andre
Beach Bill And perhaps there is a reason that the hobby has a relatively high percentage of "lone wolf" modelers.... Bill
And perhaps there is a reason that the hobby has a relatively high percentage of "lone wolf" modelers....
Bill
I'm a lone wolf as far as my modeling goes. I do what I want, the way I want. When it pleases me, it's done. And frankly, I don't care what someone else's opinion would be. As I learn more I may get more particular, but it's stil me satisfying myself. And yes I do some things that I know are wrong just because I think it looks better. But then for me model railroading is an art form akin to painting not photography.
OTOH, I think criticizing what a manufacturer makes is fair game for consumers. Consumers have a right to examine things offered for sale and point out shortcomings, problems, defects, incorrect details, etc. to the manufacturer and other consumers. It's all part of the marketplace.
Paul
CGW121What I was talking about are the rivit counters and know it alls who a a trainshow or a layout tour who have to comment on whatever they see as wrong. Neither of those places are the best venue for "advice"
I value those comments. Trainshows are the only places people get to see my modules, so public feedback is important. Its how I get better. I was raised to do everything I do the absolute best that I can do it. Nothing less is acceptable. Good enough isn't.
I found out recently from show feedback that there are actually standards for how tall highway signs are (not something that I had not given consideration) and how close they should be to the roadway etc.
CGW121 What it seems like what you are saying is,is that you should be able to offer your advice and if they dont take it well it is their fault.
I think what selector may be saying, at least how I interpereted it, is that if I offered my opinion/advice on how you could do it better, and you ignore me, its not really an issue with me. I provided feedback to you about what you are displaying.
At trainshows, those people out there are your customers, they have likely paid to see what you are displaying. Always never forget that. They are what allows you to set up and run trains. Not everyone there knows about prototype accuracy, but some do, and you can provide a change to educate those who dont.
Insert shooting star with rainbow from PBS.
selector I can't say I agree with the post by CGW. There are ways to offer criticism, the easiest being to ask the person if he/she would be prepared to receive it. If the answer is no, then the matter should be closed in a civil environment. If yes, then it's time to maintain the scrupulously honest approach. If there is disagreement, everything grinds to a halt...and the matter is again closed.
I can't say I agree with the post by CGW. There are ways to offer criticism, the easiest being to ask the person if he/she would be prepared to receive it. If the answer is no, then the matter should be closed in a civil environment. If yes, then it's time to maintain the scrupulously honest approach. If there is disagreement, everything grinds to a halt...and the matter is again closed.
What I was talking about are the rivit counters and know it alls who a a trainshow or a layout tour who have to comment on whatever they see as wrong. Neither of those places are the best venue for "advice" I am not at all opposed to someone giving advice, but it comes easiest from close friends. Someone who offers criticism that is neither the time or place for it. I have several model railroad mentors that I can trust
On a side note I was a working musician for many years. I know about blunt criticism.
Hoy, this can be a basket of bugs if one isn't careful. I've seen layouts the owner was tremendously proud of that sported everything I've been taught to NOT do (dead straight tracks parallel to the fascia, no grades, gigantic yards with no purpose, complete absence of theme or era). Did I point out the issues? Nope. Nobody asked me. I'll take it as lessons learned and try to aim higher on my own layout.
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
CGW121 If I ASK for your opinion, then give it. If I have not asked you what you think then you should keep your mouth shut. To criticize unasked is an invitation to a rude response. If you see things that are in your eyes "wrong" keep your mouth shut.
If I ASK for your opinion, then give it. If I have not asked you what you think then you should keep your mouth shut. To criticize unasked is an invitation to a rude response. If you see things that are in your eyes "wrong" keep your mouth shut.
I would say that I am the exact opposite.
If you publish your work in a publication of some sort or another, you invite criticism. Without people criticizing the oversized details of yeseteryear, we would not have highly accurate affordable detailed plastic models today. I am a rivet counter (to a point, I dont think I have actually ever counted rivets).
Everyone is entitiled to an opinion. If you dont like someones opinion, nothing says you have to act on it. A simple "noted" response is more than adequate. Nothing says you have to take the criticism personally.
And do you not want someone to point out derailment causing kinks, S-curves that are causing actual problems with your layout?
There is a whole section on this forum devoted to prototypical accuracy. I strive to do the best I can. If there is something Im doing incorrectly, I want to know about it.
One my biggest gripes is published photos of HO scale models proclaiming how real a scene looks. In that very same photo is a bronze spring and a trip pin, and an out of scale coupler.
When I got back into the hobby in HO scale back in 2012, my first purchase was a Bachmann 2-6-0 DCC and sound. I thought it sounded great and looked pretty good. I even when to the extra step of repainting and decaling it for Boston and Maine. I brought it to the model rr club I had just joined. I discovered to my dismay that the locomotive actually was not a model of anything the B&M owned. It was not even close (headlight out of position, piston valves vs slide valves, drive wheel spacing incorrect etc). I looked into it further, almost every one of the railroad that the 2-6-0 was offered painted for had piston valves...conversely the 4-6-0 was the opposite. It was offered with slide valves, prototypes had piston valves.
No the 4 wheel leading truck doesnt fit on the 2-6-0...
Later on I purchased a P2K Heritage 2-8-4 undecorated (C&O model). I decaled it for B&M in a road number and class after the highest number B&M 2-8-4. I put TCS WOW sound and the largest speaker I could fit in it. You can hear the locomotive running on the club modular layout @ Springfield during the show, standing 6ft away. Its pretty amazing.
By comparison the 2-6-0 is generic sounding and barely audible. I might go for a larger speaker at some point.
I can't say I agree with the post by CGW. There are ways to offer criticism, the easiest being to ask the person if he/she would be prepared to receive it. If the answer is no, then the matter should be closed in a civil environment. If yes, then it's time to maintain the scrupulously honest approach. If there is disagreement, everything grinds to a halt...and the matter is again closed. At least, that's how it has gone in my adult life.
To the subject of noticing details and errors: I was taught how to see a certain way when I got my first telescope at the age of 14. Books suggested drawing what I saw at the eyepiece to help me to 'learn' how to see details that I might not otherwise notice. It worked.
Then, I joined the military, armour, part of which is the field of reconnaissance. In that field, you have to learn to be discerning. Shapes, shadows, movement, colours...anything that can help you to spot a possible gun position. Tanks are vulnerable as big hulking and slow-moving objects. Anti-tank weapons abound, but the most lethal anti-tank platform is...another tank. If you missed the end of a barrel protruding from a hide in a woodline, you were toast.
Then, many years later, I joined this hobby. I had to learn another way of 'seeing'. I had to remark on bark, on ties and fish plates, on the stains on building roofs, and so on.
What am I getting at? That we learn continuously in our lives if we are reasonably intelligent and open-minded. We learn what to spot that we define as errors. If that is unrealistic gaps and long shadows at the base of a scale building, then we teach ourselves how to avoid making that mistake.
Last point: a military base newspaper had a little quip at the masthead. It said, "If you find any mistakes in our publication, we like to please a broad range of readers, including those who are always looking for mistakes."
EnzoampsPoint being, when I ran a retail service business, I sure would like to know anyone's thoughts on my product/service/business practice. I'd like to think modellers would be interested in how others react to their effort. Or am I just inhaling my own smoke?
I think many hobbyists may be "fishing for complements".
When I worked at Bell Labs, a much more experienced co-worked said that in his experience, co-workers didn't want to be told when they did something wrong.
I heard a story that someone lent a scratch built locomotive to John Allen for comments. John took a picture of the locomotive on John's layout from a scale person's viewpoint and returned the model and pciture without comment. The picture showed the imperfections of the model, the owner added 10s of detailed parts and won a contest.
may be easiest to help the modeler recognize the deficiencies, than point them out. I think the reason why encouraging the positive is more productive, is not because of what is said, but rather what is not said (what is not praised).
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I think you make many valid points. I work as a mechanical design engineer, so design reviews are common in my work week. I find that being receptive to criticism has a few aspects.
The first is that I have put time and effort into making whatever it is Im working on, so hearing that it's not up to par can be hard to take, at least initially. Many times, after a few minutes and reviewing data, I realize the criticism is correct, and I work to get better for it.
Also, I find how the criticism is delivered goes a long way towards how we receive it. My supervisor has a great way of delivering criticism so I feel like I didn't waste my time, I just learned how to get better. He explains what I did wrong, and how to do it better, which is very helpful. However, someone I used to work with would start out with "That's all wrong", and proceed to redo it all his way. That was always harder to take.
I think we all want to live up to the work we see on these forums and in the magazine(s). Also, I think most people know they can do better. It's just a matter of practice, and if you're going to ask for critical comments, you should be prepared that they may be brutally honest.
Modeling whatever I can make out of that stash of kits that takes up half my apartment's spare bedroom.
Good points! People see things from many different points of view based on like-dislike, experience or other things. I understand what you are saying about some of the things presented in the magazines and elsewhere. I notice leaning poles, buildings, derailed equpment, bowed out windows, etc, etc. It's very common and some folks get all anal about it while others accept it with the attitude of who cares? As an Aircraft Inspector for 45 years I tend to see a lot of details that aren't 100% correct. It is my nature and was my job. People's lives depended on this. As a model railroader I have always strived to be as perfect as possible in all my modeling and custom painting because it pleases me.
We all have different goals and views of the hobby. Thwere's no real answer of right & wrong. Whatever you are satisfied with is "right" for you.......and many others. I see these things and just don't worry about them but make mental notes to not let those things slip by in MY modeling. It's my main reason for not joining clubs and modular groups. I'm not a snob and I basically love and can talk about all scales, eras and types of modeling but I just can't be around, appreciate or participate in having a module with a NASA moon landing next to a wild west module or a coal mine next to a circus. Many have poor workmanship and many also are examples of beginner's work. FOR ME......it's just not something I want to see or do.
Having a discussion face-to-face can be a great experience when the people are courteous and open minded about it. It's a great way to learn and gain information. The real issue is when the personal discussions and opinions go online. When the direct contact is lost many people feel they have a right and obligation to be rude and say things that they would probably never say in person. Because the direct contact is lost doesn't give anyone the right to say some of the stuff I've seen here and other places. Opinions vary about everything........especially so in this hobby! Listen and learn and keep your fingers away from the keyboard for the most part.
I agree that writing letters to a company is a good thing. I write them all the time. I think a company needs to know when they do something right or wrong. I have had companies write or call me to thank me and tell me they found the problem with their equipment and re-calibrated it. They didn't realize it had slipped and were grateful I pointed it out. Others don't seem to care and that's ok too. I tend to support those that care and spend my money at a competitor when dealing with the other kind.
My 2¢,
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works