BRAKIE ricktrains4824 While I don't often consider myself "advanced" in skills in the hobby, if I know of a easy way of doing something, I will say so. If I may beg the question..What is advance? One modeler may be very knowledgeable in car and locomotive details, builders and phases but,has scenery that would cause Mother Earth to ROFLOL or has less then desirable track work.Another modeler may be highly skilled in scenery and track laying but,his prototype knowledge is near zero and his buildings may look like they was built while the modeler was on a three day drinking binge. I'm not sure where I fit in or even if I do fit in seeing I was called a disgrace to the hobby once in a very nasty PM. I was told on another forum after I mention I focus on the car's number while I'm switching cars like I did when I was a brakeman and I didn't really notice the details on my freight cars I was told I should use blocks of wood with numbers on them. OTOH where I fit in or even if I don't fit I'm still having fun!
ricktrains4824 While I don't often consider myself "advanced" in skills in the hobby, if I know of a easy way of doing something, I will say so.
If I may beg the question..What is advance? One modeler may be very knowledgeable in car and locomotive details, builders and phases but,has scenery that would cause Mother Earth to ROFLOL or has less then desirable track work.Another modeler may be highly skilled in scenery and track laying but,his prototype knowledge is near zero and his buildings may look like they was built while the modeler was on a three day drinking binge.
I'm not sure where I fit in or even if I do fit in seeing I was called a disgrace to the hobby once in a very nasty PM. I was told on another forum after I mention I focus on the car's number while I'm switching cars like I did when I was a brakeman and I didn't really notice the details on my freight cars I was told I should use blocks of wood with numbers on them.
OTOH where I fit in or even if I don't fit I'm still having fun!
Brakie - I would consider "advanced" anyone with extensive experience in the hobby, anyone who can complete a layout past the "plywood central" stage, or anyone with real railroad experience. (Therefore, as a former RR brakeman, you would be advanced in my book on operations expertise.)
I have zero RR experience, have yet to complete a layout to where details can be concentrated on, and, at (in two weeks) 31 yrs of age, don't consider myself as having extensive experience in anything hobby related.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Many years ago, before I became a moderator here in 2007, we had a lengthy and highly contentious thread about the hobby being an artform. There was plenty of hissing and steam being emitted by the time the second page of posts was well underway.
With deference to those who wouldn't budge from their contention that it is very much an artform, offering criticism invites artful expression of it. Just as with singing, painting, and guitar-playing, not everyone manages to do it particularly well. In the case of the more contentious 'discussions' we had back then, a few were entirely artless, even vengeful, in their approach to meting out their criticism. It wasn't pretty. Fortunately, I think most of us eventually agreed that the hobby is largely artistic in character, and we managed to win over the more malleable of 'critics', except under penalty...maybe threat is a better word. We seem to have maintained that culture to this day and I must say I am very happy that we can criticise each other, and even object, without actually being objectionable. Or disagree without being disagreeable.
Thanks for the many responses, I was afraid I'd be seen as a troll and ignored. My profesional career was in show biz/music. I have played guitar over 50 years, and still have no talent, and I freely admit it. SO anyone wants to critique my playing, feel free, I already heard it. But I do play well enough to wring the sustain out of your amp that it is capable of. Or any other electronic aspect of the industry.
One thing to know is a critic is one who analyzes. A rave movie review is nonetheless a criticism. To say this layout if flawless and a gem is still criticism. In this internet world, too many people think criticism means "personal attack". Fault finding can be part of criticism, but the basic core is simple analysis. It isn't a bad word.
My original premise was never to find fault, though my examples may seem that way. Not too long ago didn;t Tony Koester write a column about "good enough"? Every inch of his layout did not have to be SMithsonian quality modelling. Amen. I wondered how one should go about having an honest discussion. SOme of you obviously don;t want one, others do.
I cook chili competitively, and face criticism there, and enjoy discussing cooking with other cooks. There are two kinds of people. If I ask, "Where did you buy this meat?" Some guys will say "Bert's Meat Market over on main street." Others will say "Why? What's wrong with it?" I think those relate to the kinds of replies I got here. Some react defensively others don't.
I was hoping ther was a good way to have a discussion of what another modeller thought, but it seems to be too sensitive a thing to bring up. If I see an out of sequence B&O loco number in the magazine I can write about it. If I see one in person, I guess leave it a mystery. Not because I wan't to point out a mistake, but because I wan;t to know if it was an oversight or if that particular prototype number lasted past the renumbering.
BRAKIEI was called a disgrace to the hobby once in a very nasty PM.
I would hope that anyone who is treated like that would report the abuse to MR. People who would do that do not deserve to be on the forums.
My club went through an episode not too long ago where a prospective member objected strenuously to having to be voted in. Interestingly, he proved to be the exact reason that the club vets new members. On his very first visit he loudly criticized every detail that he could find wrong with everyones' rolling stock and with the layout, and had proceeded to tell us what we needed to change immediately. Needless to say he was not voted in!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
BRAKIE I was told I should use blocks of wood with numbers on them.
The way some folks treat the equipment during our open houses, that's exactly what I've suggested. Except the wood blocks needed Kadee couplers and be able to roll down a 2% grade. Painting on the ladders, doors, and grabs was optional. Unit train wood blocks did not need numbers added.
BRAKIE ...and I didn't really notice the details on my freight cars I was told I should use blocks of wood with numbers on them.
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
ricktrains4824While I don't often consider myself "advanced" in skills in the hobby, if I know of a easy way of doing something, I will say so.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
While I don't often consider myself "advanced" in skills in the hobby, if I know of a easy way of doing something, I will say so. If I notice something extremely off, I will politely say so, as sometimes it takes someone else to catch some things.
Likewise, I'd hope, that, if you notice something extremely off on something I do, I would appreciate a polite point being made to that fact.
Now, if it is clearly meant to be fanciful, freelanced, or just for fun, like the proverbial sea monster in the pond, that is where no one should be critical...
Unless of course there is something that appears to be knocked out of place, then a polite "I don't think that is where you originally put it" is a good thing to say.
This has been a good post. Different opinions, all valid, no arguments, no flames. Usually, when I reply I try to be brief and to the point. I realize that in print I am sometimes misunderstood, just like many others. You also have differences in cultures and regions, South Georgia has completely different ways of social interactions than North Georgia, and Atlanta is a whole different world. Imagine New England and the Deep South. I have seen many replies, not just this forum, that have led to some pretty good disagreements, hurt feelings and hurt pride. I believe that this would not have happened if it was face to face. You have the tone that the reply was given, facial expression and body language. You also have respect for each other and a less chance of somebody getting down right nasty and insulting.
JoeinPA I wonder if the "Show me Something" thread has attracted some of the folks who would otherwise have posted to WPF? I'm not critisizing Show me Something but just making an observation. There is room for both. Maybe some will "get their feet wet" by posting in Show me and later post in WPF. Joe
I wonder if the "Show me Something" thread has attracted some of the folks who would otherwise have posted to WPF? I'm not critisizing Show me Something but just making an observation. There is room for both. Maybe some will "get their feet wet" by posting in Show me and later post in WPF.
Joe
I have found the exact opposite. I'm just starting back into the hobby and because Show Me Something asks for specific images, I tend not to have any. Alternately, WPF is wide open to show what I'm working on. I don't post every week because I don't always make interesting progress and when I do post I tend to feel a bit tentative because I know where my skills are relative to other people. However, the reception I've gotten in the thread has been very gracious and welcoming which has encouraged me to continue posting.
If you post here, you invite coments, period. That being said a lot of people could avoid getting negative comments by saying what they were after. If it is hyper real or fantasy etc. I am going for hyper real as far as scenery goes and I know my layout is good scenery wize but it will improve over time and most has not been weathered yet, so I point that out too.
riogrande5761 The method for posting photo's here is the most common one used on most forums and not difficult.
The method for posting photo's here is the most common one used on most forums and not difficult.
I am well aware of that. I am spoiled by facebook, instagram and the like where I just point and click so to speak. I dont take many photos share even less. Once in a while I feel like uploading a photo here, then the steps to do it make me say nahhh not worth the effort.
CGW121 I never put photos on WPF cause it a major pain in the patootie. Facebook I simply click on a photo on my harddrive and it uploads it for me. Until this site gets that easy I wont post photos here simple as that.
I never put photos on WPF cause it a major pain in the patootie. Facebook I simply click on a photo on my harddrive and it uploads it for me. Until this site gets that easy I wont post photos here simple as that.
The method for posting photo's here is the most common one used on most forums and not difficult. Now MRH Forums uses a non-standard method and because it's non-standard, I have to go re-learn it every few months - now thats a pain in the patuty.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
stuckinthe50s....I have noticed that the participation in WPF has been declining. Could this be because of the fear of some well meaning person being over critical?....
Perhaps....., but the impersonal nature of this medium offers as much opportunity for rude behaviour as it does for fraternity, and I don't see too much of the former in WPF nowadays. As Crandell has noted, earlier days on this Forum had more than their share of insensitive louts and while I enjoyed a fairly positive reception upon joining, I was on the verge of quitting over the rude responses which our late lamented friend Jeffrey received to his photo efforts.I'd guess the paucity of participation is more likely related to the supposed technical issues involved in posting photos here, and the fact that many modellers either have very little to show or feel that what they have is not "up to standards". In the past, I've noticed that people are often loath to post a photo after someone has posted something especially noteworthy, although a lot of those especially well-skilled folks seem to have gone elsewhere.
I seldom participate in WPF, mainly because I post enough photos elsewhere in this Forum and sometimes fear that I'm wearing out my welcome. My preference on a subject under discussion is to throw my take on it out there as an example of what I do, and let others decide if it's a good idea/picture or whatever. This allows them to take it or leave it or perhaps come up with something better. I don't ever recall touting my way of doing something as being the best or only way....more like the best I could do, or the only way that came to mind.
I look at our role here as both learners and teachers, and the day we stop doing either, we might as well just quit showing up. I see no value in criticising others, but if asked to critique someone's work, definitely look for the positive aspects of it before even opening my mouth.
We all see and/or read the same things here, but because we all see and read in our own manner, our interpretion of what we view is wide ranging. I have found that I take longer to respond to those things which I feel require my input. Part of that is because this medium allows me to compose my thoughts much better than my feeble brain does when I'm actually speaking on a subject, but it also affords me the time to reconsider what I'm saying, and many times, I simply erase my comments rather than post them. I'm not qualified to criticise anyone here.
Wayne
hon30critterI think that one of the major causes for not posting on WPF is self criticism. I suspect that people are too critical of their own work and don't post for that reason.
I agree.. My worst critic is me but,I will mention after receiving PMs on how my photos wasn't up to "standards" I grew weary of receiving those PMs every other time I posted a photo and I decided that life is to short and wasn't worth the hassle.
I have noticed that the participation in WPF has been declining. Could this be because of the fear of some well meaning person being over critical?
I have to agree with JaBear. I can't recall any negative comments on WPF in recent memory. I think that one of the major causes for not posting on WPF is self criticism. I suspect that people are too critical of their own work and don't post for that reason.
In fact I wonder if self doubt is one of the reasons that prevent many people from posting at all. When I see a thread that has several hundred or even several thousand views but only 30 or 40 posts I have to wonder why so many people decline to comment.
stuckinthe50sI have noticed that the participation in WPF has been declining. Could this be because of the fear of some well meaning person being over critical?
You know what gang. Its too bad that those rare few who are so free with their criticism probably won't read this thread, nor would they likely take the message to heart if they did.
Cudos to the rest of us!
Cheers everybody!!
Every scale modeler is a "rivet counter" to a certain degree; some obviously fall more towards one side of the spectrum than others. I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with striving for more realism -- that is always to the modeler's personal discernment and skill. The only thing really wrong with "rivet counting" is how some people become rude, condescending and display dysfunctional social/interpersonal skills. That thing our hobby (any hobby, really) can do without.
Hobbies and any sort of interest and passion should be approached with an "always learning" kind of attitude. Even the most skilled, most experienced modeler or artist or musician or fisherman or dancer can still learn something new. If I'm making a scratchbuilt boxcar and someone kinds points out that I've missed out on some detail and constructively shows me how to correct it or build it better, that's something I'd love to hear because I'm learning something new. If I'm berated and told that I'm a horrible modeler and should give up the hobby ASAP, then I'm showing them the door.
All scale modelers (and I emphasize scale here) should strive to represent realism as much as they find enjoyable, it's just that they should never be an a-hole about it.
Like Don, I have been reading this thread with interest. It would seem that most people understand the negative impact of unsolicited or unreasonable criticism. I think that is proof that most of the people on the forum are polite, socially aware good folks. Thank goodness for that.
I have made the mistake on a couple of occassions of offering unsolicited criticism and I felt like a bit of a jerk after I thought about my comments. Of course I never intended to hurt anyone's feelings and I worded things in what I thought was the nicest possible way, but my actions may have negated that goal. I don't do it anymore, unless asked, and then I try to do it in a way that recognizes the good bits along with the not so good.
I can remember an incident from my highschool days that is a prime example of negative criticism in the wrong place at the wrong time. I had been involved in a rather lavish (for highschool) production of a play. We worked our butts off to try and make it a success. By all accounts, except one, it was well done. The one dissenting opinion came from a supposedly professional adjudicator who had been invited by the teacher in charge to tell us what he thought. We were gathered backstage after the last show to hear his opinions. Of course we were all giddy having done what we thought was a great job. He blew us out of the water! He criticized like we were professional actors. Some of the kids were in tears. He left the whole bunch of us feeling dismal. We had put our hearts and souls into the play and had worked on it for weeks only to be told by someone we were supposed to respect that we had done a lousy job. What a jerk!
I try to remember what Thumper's mother said in 'Bambi'. "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all".
I find this post interesting as I have also wondered the same. I came to the decision to keep my mouth shut on critical discussion. The reason being is that we have no idea as to what it is the modeler is attempting to accomplish. Before I cut the first piece of benchwork or drew the first track plan. I sat and decided what it is that I wish to accomplish. I followed Armstrong's advise about listing my druthers, made a list of standards and am sticking to it. We are limited by available space, and for most of us, by finances, not to mention the time we can dedicate. We have to make compromises. Which is worse a well detailed building sitting on top of the scenery, or a shiny plastic out of scale planted into the landscape? Not my layout, not my business.
If you are building a layout for operations, you need to go no futher than completed trackwork, unfinished room, open gridwork, no scenery, no backdrop and a handwritten note identifing industries, sidings, towns, etc. This person has accomplished his goal. You want a finished room with ceiling, painted walls and a floor? This will require time and dollars, before you even start the layout. For me this was a major undertaking as I had an unfinished basement and had to do studs, wiring, insullation, and a crash course on drywall. I now have a bright, clean and dry trainroom at a cost of about a year and a half of my life. I took note that I am not as young and am looking at my mortality. I had to make choices. I want to get my layout to a certain point, so I am not doing all of my scenes to the level of detail I desire, I will get back to them. The cattle that I have in a pasture are not typical of the 50's, I will repaint them in the not so distant future, but it is not for the casual observer to point this out, or to pry about my age and health, unless I specifically request feedback from him.
My other hobby is my classic Mustang. There are different kind of shows. There is the casual Saturday evening run where you bring what you have, dents dust and all. People bring their folding chairs and socialize. I have never seen anybody give unsolicited advice or criticism, a good way to get your fanny kicked. Relationships are first established, then the conversation becomes constructive. When my mustang gets to a certain level of completion, I can put it in a judged MCA show. The judge sheets points out mistakes which helps improve it for the next show. This is from recognized experts, not some know it all walking by. Being that it is in a judged category you must be receptive to advice from the casual observer.
I have noticed that the participation in WPF has been declining. Could this be because of the fear of some well meaning person being over critical? I have seen things in forums and print that I did not care for, but this is just my taste, and I go on to the next one. I went to a car show where a young man had a Gremlin, one of the ugliest cars ever built and no way near a hot rod. This kid, a teen ager had received a bunch of snide remarks and was apologetic. Now people like to talk about their car. This teenager and his friend had done all of the work and had a very good represetation of a Gremlin. I was all praise, they took an unpopular car and fixed it up real nice, all on their own and limited budger, try to find parts for this car. I praised his work and pointed out that it was better that most of the other cars and complimented him on selecting such of a now rare car and that I enjoyed looking at it. My point being is that we first established a relationship, he told me of his problem and instead of being critical, I was complementary. He had done the best with what he had, a darn good job, but maybe not up to the standards of those with more experience and finances. I hope that he is still in the hobby and discovered that it costs no more to do a desirable car in parts and labor.
Of the various layouts I am extremely fortunate to operate, most are in some stage of construction so there are usually scenes "in progress." Unless some comments are meant in jest (and only certain personalities can get away with it), most of the visiting operators are very encouraging when noticeable layout progress occurs. The only serious criticism I've ever heard has been constructive such as offering additional ideas or techniques for finishing off these scenes, or suggesting ways of better facilitating operations. Two or three of these layouts never generate criticism as they are just too spectacular to imagine being able to duplicate them yourself!
The only time I've ever felt like criticizing modeling work has been at train shows where modular clubs are exhibiting rather shoddy work. I usually hold my tongue but I've wanted to share my thoughts a few times. One club (I won't name) that I see fairly often displays corner modules that are obviously owned by the club. As no individual owns these modules, it would appear that nobody in the club really cares what they look like. Its a shame because the planned scenery on these particular modules could have been quite attractive but the obvious speed with which these modules were slapped together destroyed the whole effect. Worse, these modules have not seen any maintenance in years and now just plain look bad. I kind of feel sorry for the club members whose nicely designed and executed modules get placed adjacent to these corner modules as they really distract the viewers attention away from the nice modules. At one show, I was looking at a module put together by an obviously less skilled (beginner?) modeler. I decided to ask a club member in attendance whether their club offers tutoring and/or assistance to their less skilled modelers to help them get their modules up to "exhibit worthy" status. The guy obviously missed my point and got a little blunt with me. I did apologize and tried to further explain that I was only trying to be constructive, but I had already stepped in it and he wasn't going to listen (Maybe it was his module?).
When one considers that such shows often host a dozen or more such modular club displays, you would think that such clubs would want the public to see them in the best light. When one such club exhibits spectacularly talented and skilled modeling, while a directly adjacent club exhibits a mix of decent to embarassingly poor modeling, its small wonder which club will attract more attention and favorable comments.
If you're going to display your work to the public, whether its at a show or a private open house, you're going to have to expect both good and bad criticism. It comes with the territory! My own layout is "in progress" and only about 50% of the scenery is complete. However, I certainly don't know everything about modeling and most of the criticism I've received has been welcome as it has been both encouraging and constructive. Such criticism has helped me to improve my scenery, often using ideas I had never, ever thought about!
Hornblower
BRAKIE Now,let's flip the coin over and see the dark side. We have no idea who is sitting behind the screen and that person could be a kid that is proud of his work even though it not quite there yet..Send the kid negativity feed back because well,fill the blank with your thought. Then maybe the modeler is handicap physically or mentally and doing his very best work and is proud of his accomplishment and just wants to share photos of his work with his forum friends... Who are we to set in judgment of another's work when we have no clue what the person is? I do well to please myself and I'm sure enough not worried about pleasing anybody else.
Now,let's flip the coin over and see the dark side.
We have no idea who is sitting behind the screen and that person could be a kid that is proud of his work even though it not quite there yet..Send the kid negativity feed back because well,fill the blank with your thought.
Then maybe the modeler is handicap physically or mentally and doing his very best work and is proud of his accomplishment and just wants to share photos of his work with his forum friends...
Who are we to set in judgment of another's work when we have no clue what the person is? I do well to please myself and I'm sure enough not worried about pleasing anybody else.
I just happened across this post from 2010 in a different thread:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/175117/1925204.aspx#1925204
Either way, I am 17 years old and very much in to model railroading, among other forms of modeling (military, that sort of thing). I personally have noticed it is extremely difficult to locate other people my age in to the hobby, but I do notice they exist. One major contributing factor as to why I am in to this hobby is the support I have received from the members of my local train club. At the same time, it has also been adults who have discouraged me from the hobby. Whether it be in person or over the internet, I have noticed adults seem (to me) overly critical of our mistakes, and tend to not appreciate our skills. I'm not sure as to why this is happening, as all we wish to do is be accepted as another member of the modelling community, but this is hard for us when we are constantly judged by those who themselves started at a young age. One noticable judgement is when adults display completed projects, locomotives, models and only receive praise and a little judgement, but it seems when ever people my age or myself submit something for approval, it is judged harshly and is shunned without any concern. I have to ask myself why this occurs, as sometimes the people who act this way seem threatened by our presence.
In a thread about lack of young people in Model Railroading...
Gary
-matthewIf you want to get into critical discussions about modeling, why not start with your own layout? Have someone over and point out something that you're not happy with and ask the person how they would handle it?
Excellent point, -matthew. In fact, a very good way to approach criticism, if you must. I tend to discuss things in terms of what _I_ would do and why. If that clicks with people that's good, if not it's simply my idea that didn't quite work for their problem. That's easier to digest for most of us than "My way or you're a klutz" that's as good as it gets for some folks in giving advice. And it avoids presuming that you know what's best for someone else, because we mostly don't.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
selector....Courtesy...we treat each other as friends, colleagues, like-minded sufferers...whatever. But always with courtesy. It wasn't like that too often on this forum when I first joined in 2005.
I remember those days, Crandell, so it's especially nice to see a discussion as civilised as this one has been.
I don't understand why people feel the need to point out criticisms or make suggestions for improvement when they aren't asked. Usually the answer is something like, "I'm just trying to help them make it better."
That's a very nice sentiment, but when the "it" is something as subjective as modeling, you first need to understand why the person is doing it, what they're goals are, and whether they're open to suggestions to begin with. Additionally, by pointing out a "flaw" you run the risk of touching a sore spot. For example, a gap between the building and the ground, could be the result of the modeler's limited budget for modelling supplies.
If you want to get into critical discussions about modeling, why not start with your own layout? Have someone over and point out something that you're not happy with and ask the person how they would handle it?
Kevin,
I'm not going to comment on the thread title...there are some good points made and not so good. I try to stay out of conversations that I see really have no solution, just an ongoing view of opinions, which everyone is entitled to. We all as individuals are constantly growing and learning, hopefully! Some faster than others and some not so fast, others refuse or are stuck in their beliefs. I'm on a different page than most of You, (mainly due to age and being a disabled Vet) all the rest of My life, one thing I try to do, Is treat others as I want to be treated. Most times, it's best Not to say anything. It's a BIG World out there and many influences, seem to control many people.....I strive Not to be one of them. Nuff..said, by Me.
Wargaming EH?
How about futuristic Armies. Some figures I built and painted for one of My younger Son's, He's 40. I stopped after 150 figures and vehicles, some of His friends were constantly asking Me to do their's and I just didn't have the time. I did do some specialty figures for some....but they take a lot of time.
They are 28mm, Warhammer 40K.
Take Care, All!
Frank