I have purchased my share of RTR (Car not available as a kit, nor are decals available even if the car is). But I enjoy building kits, mostly the more difficult ones and an Athearn Blue Box kit once in a while.
Resin kits are fun like the Rail Yard Models PC X-79 Boxcar Kit.
Kit box contents including resin parts, plastic parts, trucks, wire and decals!
Underbody detail work prior to adding the brake detail parts.
After adding the air reservoir, abd valve, brake cylinder, rodding, pipping and quides.
Completed car, note that all the rodding on the plug doors are separately applied plastic rod, which was a lot of fun to apply using CA to glue to the resin car sides.
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
richhotrainIt is all well and good to be enthusiastic, if not downright passionate, about kit building, but why the need to categorize non-kit builders as an outcast sub-group in the hobby? ...How many of you name callers have been consistent with your own layout? Do you hand lay track? Do you build your own electronics? Give the rest of us a break, fellas.
You've highlighted the parts of this ongoing topic that I don't get either. I've engaged a number of hobbyists about it, asking similar questions.
The typical responses I get from the guys who bemoan the decline of kits are as follows:
Note that I make no presumptions about whether any of the above apply to anyone in this thread. They're just things I hear a lot.
I recall a discussion some time back on this very forum about a particular RTR model that was new at the time, an Athearn Genesis caboose. It generated some anti-RTR reactions, as if it was evidence of hobby decline that people would choose to buy it rather than build.
I posted this photo of such a caboose on my layout. I noted how there was no other model of this prototype outside brass, how scratchbuilding or kitbashing would be time consuming, without necessarily resulting in a better model at a lower cost, and that I'd preferred to use my time doing other things. I noted that I photographed it with cars I built from kits, a kitbashed trestle, scratchbuilt abutments and piers, scenery made from scratch, a backdrop I painted, home made grass tufts, scratchbuilt trees, and so on.
Not using kits for all our rolling stock like we used to doesn't imply we aren't out here developing modeling skills. The evidence I see tells me our hobby is producing better layouts, so I'm not too worried about how we're acquiring cars.
Rob Spangler
I purchased a few HO Athearn Blue Box kits in the early 2000's, the kadee couplers and wheels were plastic, the cars were a bit wobbly, and some of the parts tended to fall off or get lost after awhile. I later sold them in favor of ready to run models.
tstagetstage wrote the following post 11 hours ago: wp8thsub When it comes to freight car kits, very few hobbyists EVER went for Intermountain, Red Caboose, Branchline Blueprint, or other complex plastic kits, let alone wood cars or anything requiring extensive fabrication...When most modelers talk about their love of car kits, they're thinking Athearn blue box, Accurail and the like. That's not the case with me
wp8thsub
When it comes to freight car kits, very few hobbyists EVER went for Intermountain, Red Caboose, Branchline Blueprint, or other complex plastic kits, let alone wood cars or anything requiring extensive fabrication...When most modelers talk about their love of car kits, they're thinking Athearn blue box, Accurail and the like.
That's not the case with me
I think Rob is referring to the large scale trends out there and based on what you see at swap meets and train shows, it's true, the more detailed kits are abundant on the secondary market.
Time is a factor for many it's true, so it does help to have RTR detailed rolling stock for those who don't have time to build a fleet from detailed kits. That said, there are some things I have found that help the process go a bit quicker and be a little less painful.
In the early days, i used hobby knives to cut those tiny delicate parts from the trees but then I discovered the desprueing nipper that makes that part of kit building go quick and pretty easy. The other thing is on some kits the mounting pins sometimes don't fit into the hole provided, so a set of micro drills in a Pin Vise or a fine set of reamers can help get those parts to settle in where they mount.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL BRAKIE hon30critter I apologise in advance. I am now about to sound like a really old fart! The RTR craze is robbing many modellers of the opportunity to actually 'model' in terms of creating or kit bashing rolling stock to suit their own needs. By choosing to go the RTR route they are missing a part of the hobby which is very rewarding. This may draw ire,fire and brimstone but, IMHO every modeler should build a steam and diesel locomotive kit just to understand how they go together,how they work and how to troubleshoot them. Agreed, and here is the part I still don't get about the strickly RTR crowd, not everything I want to model my era and theme is available RTR, or even in "as built" kit form. Without kits and kit bashing, my railroad would be "incomplete"? Sheldon This is a topic that always leaves me bewildered. It is all well and good to be enthusiastic, if not downright passionate, about kit building, but why the need to categorize non-kit builders as an outcast sub-group in the hobby? When I read terms like "RTR craze", the "RTR crowd", and the urging that "every modeler should build a steam and diesel locomotive kit", I come away feeling like a second class modeler. My layout includes 100% kit built structures, and I have tried my hand at scratchbuilding as well. But why must I build a steam and diesel locomotive and/or kit-build my rolling stock? How many of you name callers have been consistent with your own layout? Do you hand lay track? Do you build your own electronics? Give the rest of us a break, fellas. Just because we buy and run locomotives and rolling stock out of the box doesn't, or at least shouldn't, reduce us to second class modelers. It is all fine and good if you like to build from kits, but why castigate those of us who don't? Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL BRAKIE hon30critter I apologise in advance. I am now about to sound like a really old fart! The RTR craze is robbing many modellers of the opportunity to actually 'model' in terms of creating or kit bashing rolling stock to suit their own needs. By choosing to go the RTR route they are missing a part of the hobby which is very rewarding. This may draw ire,fire and brimstone but, IMHO every modeler should build a steam and diesel locomotive kit just to understand how they go together,how they work and how to troubleshoot them. Agreed, and here is the part I still don't get about the strickly RTR crowd, not everything I want to model my era and theme is available RTR, or even in "as built" kit form. Without kits and kit bashing, my railroad would be "incomplete"? Sheldon
BRAKIE hon30critter I apologise in advance. I am now about to sound like a really old fart! The RTR craze is robbing many modellers of the opportunity to actually 'model' in terms of creating or kit bashing rolling stock to suit their own needs. By choosing to go the RTR route they are missing a part of the hobby which is very rewarding. This may draw ire,fire and brimstone but, IMHO every modeler should build a steam and diesel locomotive kit just to understand how they go together,how they work and how to troubleshoot them.
hon30critter I apologise in advance. I am now about to sound like a really old fart! The RTR craze is robbing many modellers of the opportunity to actually 'model' in terms of creating or kit bashing rolling stock to suit their own needs. By choosing to go the RTR route they are missing a part of the hobby which is very rewarding.
This may draw ire,fire and brimstone but, IMHO every modeler should build a steam and diesel locomotive kit just to understand how they go together,how they work and how to troubleshoot them.
Agreed, and here is the part I still don't get about the strickly RTR crowd, not everything I want to model my era and theme is available RTR, or even in "as built" kit form. Without kits and kit bashing, my railroad would be "incomplete"?
Sheldon
This is a topic that always leaves me bewildered.
It is all well and good to be enthusiastic, if not downright passionate, about kit building, but why the need to categorize non-kit builders as an outcast sub-group in the hobby? When I read terms like "RTR craze", the "RTR crowd", and the urging that "every modeler should build a steam and diesel locomotive kit", I come away feeling like a second class modeler.
My layout includes 100% kit built structures, and I have tried my hand at scratchbuilding as well. But why must I build a steam and diesel locomotive and/or kit-build my rolling stock? How many of you name callers have been consistent with your own layout? Do you hand lay track? Do you build your own electronics?
Give the rest of us a break, fellas. Just because we buy and run locomotives and rolling stock out of the box doesn't, or at least shouldn't, reduce us to second class modelers. It is all fine and good if you like to build from kits, but why castigate those of us who don't?
Rich
Rich, I know my own response to the posts above was not meant to be critical of those who don't build kits. In agreeing with those posts, I have two points, one which I think I explained well enough, depending on your modeling goals, it is hard enough to fill out a prototypical roster using both kits and RTR. For example, it would be impossible for me to model early piggyback with reasonable accuracy, even with my "close enough" standards, without at least kit bashing, especially 25 years ago when I got serious about modeling it.
The other point, made by the others, is about the simple ability to do basic trouble shooting and maintenence on locos.
Personally, I understand that some people don't care to know how their loco works, or how their car, or the things in their home work. I'm also indifferent when they can't fix minor problems on their own - sorry, its just how I was raised. You learned how to fix things so as not to be dependent on others, and to save money.
And the point is well taken that loco kits simply don't exist anymore. But I also see the "demand" for locos always running "perfect" out of the box as unrealistic, at least at prices I am willing to pay.........
So, we all make the compromises we make in this hobby..........
Again, at least for me, not treating others as second class, just trying to understand their modeling goals and how they meet them. Mine would not be met without at least some kits.
I have never been good at "settling" for less than what I want......
Alton Junction
BRAKIEThis may draw ire,fire and brimstone but, IMHO every modeler should build a steam and diesel locomotive kit just to understand how they go together,how they work and how to troubleshoot them.
Having built both myself, I would agree that this is useful.
The big but is: where do find the kits? As far as I can tell, no one's making them anymore. And the old kits like Bowser and MDC have mostly disappeared from train shows. It's been a couple of years since I saw an MDC steam locomotive kit (I bought both of them).
Paul
BRAKIE hon30critter I apologise in advance. I am now about to sound like a really old fart! The RTR craze is robbing many modellers of the opportunity to actually 'model' in terms of creating or kit bashing rolling stock to suit their own needs. By choosing to go the RTR route they are missing a part of the hobby which is very rewarding. Dave,I couldn't agree more.. This may draw ire,fire and brimstone but, IMHO every modeler should build a steam and diesel locomotive kit just to understand how they go together,how they work and how to troubleshoot them.
Dave,I couldn't agree more..
hon30critterI apologise in advance. I am now about to sound like a really old fart! The RTR craze is robbing many modellers of the opportunity to actually 'model' in terms of creating or kit bashing rolling stock to suit their own needs. By choosing to go the RTR route they are missing a part of the hobby which is very rewarding.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
wp8thsub UPFEF I guess no one builds kits any more. When it comes to freight car kits, very few hobbyists EVER went for Intermountain, Red Caboose, Branchline Blueprint, or other complex plastic kits, let alone wood cars or anything requiring extensive fabrication. There's a reason the more involved kits languish on show tables, and remain unbuilt so many years after they were initially sold. When most modelers talk about their love of car kits, they're thinking Athearn blue box, Accurail and the like.
UPFEF I guess no one builds kits any more.
When it comes to freight car kits, very few hobbyists EVER went for Intermountain, Red Caboose, Branchline Blueprint, or other complex plastic kits, let alone wood cars or anything requiring extensive fabrication. There's a reason the more involved kits languish on show tables, and remain unbuilt so many years after they were initially sold. When most modelers talk about their love of car kits, they're thinking Athearn blue box, Accurail and the like.
This is likely very true, even back in the 70's and 80's when I ran a train department in a hobby shop, craftsman, or more advanced kits were only popular with a small crowd.
For me, building a large layout, but still liking to build stuff, I don't see any of this as "either/or". I build EVERY level of kit. Built my first Silver Streak and other wood kits at age 13/14, some of them still run on my layout and look good. I still build Blue Box cars, generally with some upgrades and kit bashing, I build resin cars, high detail plastic kits, wood cars, old metal side kits...........and I buy my fair share of RTR.
Some of my RTR is the new high end, high detail stuff - just got my new B&O covered hoppers from Spring Mills Depot. But I also buy selective Athearn/Roundhouse, Walthers Mainline, Bachmann Silver and other "mid range" RTR.
Just because I can build a super detailed model, not every piece in a 1000 car fleet needs to be a museum piece..........
And even though I like to build stuff, I want to build the layout and run the trains......
So a balance of sources and activities suits my interests in the hobby the best.
But I will not just wait around for ever for all the stuff I want to be made high end RTR........
Sometimes I want a challenge, and sometimes I'm very happy with "minimum effort modeling". I am especially pleased with projects that take inexpensive simple kits and make them dramiticly better with only small changes.......
And yes I have a good stock of unbuilt kits......of all skill levels.
I still build kits, just in 2 rail O scale and not HO anymore. I enjoy the building process personaly and not just freight cars. There is still a market, just the ROI isnt very good on kits these days. Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Sorry.
I skipped to the end.
Yup. Sure do. I'm currently working on a Cannon early NW2 cab for my switcher. I'm trying to figure out how to mount the cab floor and include a cab interior. I'm a little anxious about doing the cab windows out of glass, but I figure I'll keep trying until I get it. I've also got to mount it on the back of a Varney body. And put the whole thing on a modified Hobbytown drive.
Now, if you're talking about freight cars, I've got my X29 that I started when I was courting my wife. We just had our ten year anniversary. I'll have to check and see if it's self-assembled.
Haven't done a passenger car kit since the Walthers NYC diner back in the '70's. I DO wonder what I should do with that bad boy.
I did feel guilty and brought out a resin NP flat car kit. Seemed pretty straightforward. But then I found that the deck didn't line up with the side sills. Oh, gosh. What a treat.
The last kit that I really enjoyed working on was the Tichy/Gould crane. WHAT A BEAUTY! Most kits seem to be an assemblage of parts that could possibly be assembled into a nice model. Pretty much what it was half a century ago.
Ed
wp8thsub When it comes to freight car kits, very few hobbyists EVER went for Intermountain, Red Caboose, Branchline Blueprint, or other complex plastic kits, let alone wood cars or anything requiring extensive fabrication...When most modelers talk about their love of car kits, they're thinking Athearn blue box, Accurail and the like.
That's not the case with me, Rob. I did start out with a couple of Accurail boxcars. However, I think my third kit was a Proto 2000 tank car. Whoa! - Talk about a difference in details.
That first tank car took me about 8 hrs to assemble; primarily due to the learning curve of putting a more complex kit with delicate details together. The next tank car? About 1/2 that time.
While it can be nerve-racking when tackling those delicate parts, I've enjoyed assembling kits from the likes of Branchline "Blueprint", Intermountain, Red Caboose, Proto 2000. The one manufacturer I haven't tackled yet is F&C, which I do have 3 or 4 kits sitting on the shelf calling my name. I started a couple of them but didn't find a satisfactory enough method of removing the flashing from the parts. One of these days I'll give them another look.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
UPFEFI guess no one builds kits any more.
Another fan of kit building here. I've built many kits by Intermountain, P2K, and Red Caboose, plus I did much upgrading to two Bowser cabin cars. I loved building all of them but I've also liked getting a break from the kits with ready to run models. I've also put together a few F&C resin kits. They're definitely a class apart from other kits as they require much more work, though when done the satisfaction felt after completing one is hard to beat.
That being said, I'll keep building kits for as long as I'm able.
dknelson...There IS a frustration aspect to the Intermountain/Red Caboose etc. type kit. They are rewarding when completed, but one might legitimately opine that perhaps from a design standpoint, plastic (grab irons, stirrup steps) is being asked to do things that metal is better suited to....
I'm sure that deters some buyers. Back when the Proto2000 cars were available only as kits, not too many moved off the shelves at a nearby hobbyshop. Many of those that did later reappeared on the "used" table at the same shop, partially-built and quite a few of them not too well. However, the price for those was right for me, and the broken plastic grabs and steps were quickly replaced with metal parts.When the r-t-r versions appeared, even more partially-built kits showed up on the used table, again at bargain prices. Eventually, the store, which seldom put anything on sale, discounted the remaining kits and I was able to get quite a few at prices I could afford. The grabs and steps went into the garbage first, and I made replacements using wire, which greatly simplified the detailing work.
Here's a Red Caboose kit for an X-29 boxcar, where metal replaced plastic, although I should have done likewise with the brake rod and the retainer pipe. There are also other modifications to this car, as it's based on a prototype still in existence:
Wayne
UPFEF I have built over 400 Intermountain and Red Caboose kits for my layout. I can no longer see well enough to build the last 70 kits that I have. I got a table at a good train show, took the cars and other surplus items and sold all the surplus engines but not one kit. I was asking $10 each which is about 30% of the cost of the same brands RTR cars. I guess no one builds kits any more.
I have built over 400 Intermountain and Red Caboose kits for my layout. I can no longer see well enough to build the last 70 kits that I have. I got a table at a good train show, took the cars and other surplus items and sold all the surplus engines but not one kit. I was asking $10 each which is about 30% of the cost of the same brands RTR cars. I guess no one builds kits any more.
While I have preferred RTR in the past, I have a bunch of outs in storage that are calling my name. My wife and I recently moved into our first house, and I'm waiting for a break to build a small switching layout. In the mean time, I pulled several kits out to try and build to feel progress. I enjoyed building the Accurail and Athearn kits when I first got into the hobby. Hopefully I can find that same joy as an adult. I must be using the wrong search, as I've had difficulty find kits online.
I still build kits. Mostly to sell in some fashion. I find it relaxing. The more detailed are a bit time consuming. The trick is to do a bunch together. Often the same car in different road names. While one assembly is drying, your repeating it on one or two others. You develop a process and start seeing the parts.
I don' think the kits are the issue. There is just so many things to do.
So many trains, so little time,
www.llxlocomotives.com
BRAKIE Tom,Maybe those kids saw what many of us sees,those old BB kits can't compare to today's cars. And let us not forget some was a royal pain to build and and get everything right and they no long teach Athearn Kits 101.
Tom,Maybe those kids saw what many of us sees,those old BB kits can't compare to today's cars.
And let us not forget some was a royal pain to build and and get everything right and they no long teach Athearn Kits 101.
Larry,
The response of these young modelers wasn't the comparison of the quality between the newer RTR and the old BB kits; it was the idea that they were kits and not RTR. That to me is the shame of it all.
When I first got into the hobby "seriously" in my mid-40s, I knew very little about the underframe details of a boxcar, hopper, gondola, or tank car. Since then I've learned a little more than very little. The primary reason for that? Putting together Accurail, Bowser, Intermountain, Red Caboose, Branchline, and Proto2000 kits.
As I assembled the kits I began to learn the names of the varous parts and components of the brakelining and couplers. I didn't always understand fully what each component did and how they were related to one another but it was a start. Accurail showed me the primary parts for braking a boxcar and Branchline and Proto2000 filled me in on how it all fit together with the proper brakelining. So, assembling the kits proved to be an education, in a sense.
Larry, you had the advantage of working for the railroad so all that is fairly familiar to you. It wasn't to me so putting together kits helped me in that respect.
Maybe learning the prototype isn't what interests these young modelers at this point in their lives and that's fine. Or, maybe they already know what I've gleaned from my few years of kit assembly. Whichever the case - perhaps one day the allure of a kit might prove to pique their curiosity and they will find reward in assembling one - even if it doesn't look quite as nice as the RTR that they can buy off the shelf.
Here's hopin'...
I still build kits all of the time and love it. I do however tire of the lame metal handrails on old Athearn blue box locomotives. All of my rolling stock I built from kits except some old Tyco cars from my childhood and some passenger cars which were never released as kits. Even though most of the kits were simple Athearn or Roundhouse kits I feel a certain attachment to them because I put my heart and soul into making them. I know them inside and out. I do have a few new locomotives which are DCC equipped or Ready and they are really nice and I do plan on getting more in the future but I still buy blue box locomotives like the SD40-2 I just bought which has never been assembled, the parts bag still sealed. And I do still have a wish list of Athearn blue box cars needed to complete my collection so that I have the whole set including each different road name produced of certain type cars.
It's kind of pointless to ask the question. If you want a particular item, you look at what's available and make your choice. Lots of stuff is available, ranging from difficult kits through shake-the-box, to RTR. Difficulty of the kit is one factor. Prototype fidelity is another. I generally avoid the shake-the-box kits because they are often poor in detail and accuracy, although I sure have a lot of Athearn B&O offset quad hoppers. If I want a particular type of car and it's only available as a resin kit, I'll buy and build the resin kit. People who don't build kits may make that choice because they are satisfied with less, or because they can afford to pay the higher price of RTR, or because they lack the time or ability to build them, or for any number of other reasons. I think they're missing out on a terrific source of fun and satisfaction, but they have no obligation to pay any attention to me. It's true that many choose to avoid certain complex kits because they are intimidated by them, and that's a shame. I know I'll never find buyers for some of the kits that I won't live long enough to build.
It's a hobby, and it's foolish (maybe delusional) to think you'll ever get back the money you put into it.
BRAKIE and they no long teach Athearn Kits 101.
Sorry but I missed that class. Must have slept in.
Seriously, we teach Athearn Kits 101 right here on the forums. This is where I learned how to bring them up to decent operating standards and to upgrade their appearance as much as I wished.
I apologise in advance. I am now about to sound like a really old fart! The RTR craze is robbing many modellers of the opportunity to actually 'model' in terms of creating or kit bashing rolling stock to suit their own needs. By choosing to go the RTR route they are missing a part of the hobby which is very rewarding. However, that is ultimately their choice and they are free to make it. Maybe, just perhaps down the road a bit they will get tired of just running their RTR stuff and re-discover kit building, kit bashing and scratch building. Here's hopin'.
Each to his own!
Dave.
Make that old curmudgeon Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
tstage...Did you order one of their newer 8,000 gal tank cars that they are releasing? I just ordered the GATX "Globe Soap" Thursday and it's on its way....
I did, as the 1920s GATC version is a good fit for my late '30s layout. It's the r-t-r version, but I'm already regretting it, as one of the things I changed on their 3-dome car kit was the tank railing. The plastic one was very well-done, but I doubt it will stand up as well as the metal one I made to replace it.The other car is the undecorated kit of the same car, and it'll likely become part of the GERN fleet, like its little brother:
tstage Beach Bill I discussed this lament with a dealer at the Myrtle Beach (Murrells Inlet) train show about a month ago. He related how he had some young modelers admiring some of the new RTR freight cars and told them "you know that you can get four of these cars for the price of that one", pointing to the older Athearn blue box and similar offerings. They replied "Oh, but those are kits!" and they weren't interested. I guess if it doesn't come with a smart phone attachment of some kind, it isn't worth pursuing. Too bad...their loss... Tom
Beach Bill I discussed this lament with a dealer at the Myrtle Beach (Murrells Inlet) train show about a month ago. He related how he had some young modelers admiring some of the new RTR freight cars and told them "you know that you can get four of these cars for the price of that one", pointing to the older Athearn blue box and similar offerings. They replied "Oh, but those are kits!" and they weren't interested.
I discussed this lament with a dealer at the Myrtle Beach (Murrells Inlet) train show about a month ago. He related how he had some young modelers admiring some of the new RTR freight cars and told them "you know that you can get four of these cars for the price of that one", pointing to the older Athearn blue box and similar offerings. They replied "Oh, but those are kits!" and they weren't interested.
I guess if it doesn't come with a smart phone attachment of some kind, it isn't worth pursuing. Too bad...their loss...
Beach BillI enjoy a good kit. Although I have no more room on the layout for more rolling stock, I just enjoy the process.
I enjoy the process also. Even though I work on the layout using as much RTR as I can, it's a nice change of pace to build a car kit. I always have one or two under construction.
I enjoy a good kit. Although I have no more room on the layout for more rolling stock, I just enjoy the process. I still have a number of the Westerfield N&W HP hopper car kits to assemble, and those resin kits take careful effort. I also enjoy assembling more Accurail USRA coal hoppers - an easy kit but then it has to be weathered and a coal load has to be constructed to fit. Often now, I have to amend the numbers using Accurail's supplimental decals. It is relaxing and something I do regularly. Hope to continue...
Bill
DAVID FORTNEY I see no reason to build kits anymore. There are tons of RTR models of freight cars that are equal or better then most kits. No need to waste my time building kits when I can work on my layout and buy the cars for a few dollars more than the kits.
I see no reason to build kits anymore. There are tons of RTR models of freight cars that are equal or better then most kits. No need to waste my time building kits when I can work on my layout and buy the cars for a few dollars more than the kits.
On the same path I would rather buy RTR cars and locomotives and spend time building a structure kit and adding some detail or weathering a freight car. Of course adding miscellaneous details to the layout is another way of modeling.
I haven't built a Accurail car kit since last year and those was a ICG and B&M 50' boxcar..
I still enjoy building a car kit but,buying car kits is getting far and few between since some Atlas and Athearn RTR cars can be had at or near the price of a kit..