I followed this thread with interest since the beginning because I am of those who still enjoy to build kits. Although I have got my share of RTR in the past, I much prefer kits over RTR for the sence of achievement. As seen on this photo, the tank car on the right might not look as nice as the RTR on the left but I favor it over the other because it is a kit I striped of its original paint, assembleb, painted and decaled.
For me, time spent on a kit is more worthy than any other aspect of the hobby. I just ordered some kits from Tichy Trains and I was lucky, a few days before Xmas, to find a long sought after Sylvan Scale resin caboose kit; many hours of pleasure ahead.
Yes. I still build freight car kits.
Guy
Modeling CNR in the 50's
Modeling the N&W freelanced at the height of their steam era in HO.
Daniel G.
wp8thsubYup, and I capitalize on that by acquiring these kits for cheap at train shows. Guys stockpile kits for later, then once retired they find they lack the time, eyesight and/or fine motor skills to build them. I pick up lots of nice kits for $5-$10 from collections that are liquidated. I usually build them almost immediately.
For sure, I've picked up a few for bargain prices too; for people who like to build kits and save money, they are out there for the picken!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761GREG HAACKE Before I retired, going on five years now, I purchased kits from all the major manufactures so I would have something to do during retirement. Well here I am and I still haven't even open one of the kits I purchased. Greg Which is why we see so many kits showing up on the secondary markets at trains shows.
Which is why we see so many kits showing up on the secondary markets at trains shows.
Yup, and I capitalize on that by acquiring these kits for cheap at train shows. Guys stockpile kits for later, then once retired they find they lack the time, eyesight and/or fine motor skills to build them. I pick up lots of nice kits for $5-$10 from collections that are liquidated. I usually build them almost immediately.
Rob Spangler
betamax Some small manufacturers have discovered they can sell their entire run of a kit in RTR form in a few months, instead of years. So the incentive is the assemble the product before selling it, because you can sell more in four months than the kit will sell in ten years.
Some small manufacturers have discovered they can sell their entire run of a kit in RTR form in a few months, instead of years. So the incentive is the assemble the product before selling it, because you can sell more in four months than the kit will sell in ten years.
That is pretty much a fact and the manufacturers know it, which is why the vast majority of MR rolling stock being sold for the past 10-15+ years has been RTR. Kits are niche now-a-days; even though some of the kit builders can be very vocal, they appear to be very much in the minority as far as sales are concerned.
Of course the speed of which RTR rolling stock sells at depends on the model and road names, as some are dogs and others fly off the shelf, some in a matter of hours rather than days or weeks. I can think of examples over the past couple of years that were sold out very quickly in a matter of days or a few weeks. Naturally it tends to be models I want/need that sell out fast - which is to say that 1970's era is indeed very popular these days.
MisterBeasley Every manufacturer should read this thread. Here's another rousing endorsement of kits. I'm fond of Accurail for constantly coming out with new road numbers. I keep a spreadsheet of all my rolling stock. I print it out and take it to shows, and when I find a car that's not on my roster, it goes into my bag. Every new car gets Kadees, I weather the trucks and install Intermountain wheelsets, and then there's light weathering overall before it joins the fleet. It's not difficult, but the ritual of gluing and waiting for the paint to dry increases the anticipation, and when the car completes it's first circuit of the layout, I can't help but smile. I smile when I add an RTR car, of course, but there's a different sense of satisfaction for a kit.
Every manufacturer should read this thread.
Here's another rousing endorsement of kits. I'm fond of Accurail for constantly coming out with new road numbers. I keep a spreadsheet of all my rolling stock. I print it out and take it to shows, and when I find a car that's not on my roster, it goes into my bag. Every new car gets Kadees, I weather the trucks and install Intermountain wheelsets, and then there's light weathering overall before it joins the fleet. It's not difficult, but the ritual of gluing and waiting for the paint to dry increases the anticipation, and when the car completes it's first circuit of the layout, I can't help but smile.
I smile when I add an RTR car, of course, but there's a different sense of satisfaction for a kit.
GREG HAACKEBefore I retired, going on five years now, I purchased kits from all the major manufactures so I would have something to do during retirement. Well here I am and I still haven't even open one of the kits I purchased. Greg
Greg
MisterBeasley Every manufacturer should read this thread.
You mean manufacturers like Athearn:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athearn October 16, 2009; Athearn announced that it would stop making Blue Box Kits because of increased manufacturing and labor costs. "Effective immediately, we here at Athearn have made the difficult decision to discontinue the production of our Blue Box line of kits. There were several factors that contributed to this extremely challenging decision however, the primary issue revolved around affordability and ensuring that our Blue Box kit pricing remain aligned with what the market can bear. Unfortunately, due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price points as compared to our already assembled products." ~~Excerpt from an email from Athearn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athearn
October 16, 2009; Athearn announced that it would stop making Blue Box Kits because of increased manufacturing and labor costs.
"Effective immediately, we here at Athearn have made the difficult decision to discontinue the production of our Blue Box line of kits. There were several factors that contributed to this extremely challenging decision however, the primary issue revolved around affordability and ensuring that our Blue Box kit pricing remain aligned with what the market can bear. Unfortunately, due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price points as compared to our already assembled products." ~~Excerpt from an email from Athearn.
Just a guess on my part but it might have been economical for Athearn to continue manufacturing kits longer if actual demand was as high as some suggest it should be.
If the above comments by Greg, a retired hobbyist with availble time, is representative of many hobbiests, its no wonder the demand isn't what it used to be. Add to that the very generious supplies of unbuilt kits on the secondary market, kit demand seems to be a niche genre these days and what is being supplied via secondary market and a small production from Accurail, Scale Trains etc. is enough to supply the need.
It's not difficult, but the ritual of gluing and waiting for the paint to dry increases the anticipation, and when the car completes it's first circuit of the layout, I can't help but smile. I smile when I add an RTR car, of course, but there's a different sense of satisfaction for a kit.
True, and I've been in a small kit building renaissance myself lately; but the copious time involved in getting many of my unbuilt kits assembled and ready has brought work on the layout to a halt for the past 3 months. I'm enjoying it but it's time consuming and I don't have "that" much time availble - hence the reason why RTR is so popular. I'm not retired or that would help a lot.
In conclusion, the overall market out there doesn't seem to support a kit manufacturing renaissance. Me, there is room on my layout for both kits and RTR, and for those who lament the lack of new kits being manufactured, all is not lost; visit a sizable train show in your area and you'll likely find enough to keep you busy for quite some time.
Wow! Apparently this is a topic which has touched a lot of nerves (in a good way!).
I note that there are a number of recent responders to the thread who have been on the forums for a while but who do not post all that often. I sincerely hope that they continue to post on a regular basis. They are obviously experienced modellers. Their opinions and advice would be valued!
As Mr. B said, the manufacturers would do well to read this thread.
Best wishes to all!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I just sent off orders for several resin kits from Westerfield and Yarmouth. Yes, I'll build them --- eventually.
Tom
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Before I retired, going on five years now, I purchased kits from all the major manufactures so I would have something to do during retirement. Well here I am and I still haven't even open one of the kits I purchased.
I even have some old Blue Box kits that I purchased or have from my early days in model railroading.
This evening I was working on two Proto 2000 50' box cars that have been sitting in their boxes unbuilt for some 12-14 years.
One of them is a UP 50' auto box car with the doors on one end. The other is a jade green NYC 50' box car, although I noticed for some reason the tackboards are missing on the NYC car (bummer). Anyone know where I can find some replacements or parts that would work. Of course matching the jade green is another thing too.
While I was building the UP auto box car, I had no problem getting the tiny parts off the spues thanks to the sprue nippers I have. However, thats when the fun was over. I found some of the parts were so fine and brittle that about all I had to do was look at them and they would break. I've spent half the evening gluing styrups and grab irons back together that had shattered. As nice as the Proto 2000 50' box cars are, this evening and a few others recently building them reminded me of why they sat in the boxes so long.
Sure, I'll have the satisfaction of a very detailed car built but I may have to invest in some wire grabs and styrups at some point cause boy are they fragile.
Next up, an Intermountain 50' Frisco box car.
Everything on my layout came from a kit, or if it was ready to run, it was "kitted" and reassembled. I need all my freight carts to weigh the same, and all magnetic parts must be removed and replaced. It is easier to build a kit than to disassemble and reassemble a "ready to run" product.
For me the real enjoyment comes from building. I suppose if operations with large groups on a completed layout were important to me I would use lots of RTR models. I honestly hope my layout is never done.
Living the dream.
[quote user="mobilman44"]
Hi!
Add me to the MRs that greatly prefer kits - and have a store of unbuilts!
For what its worth, I think its a shame that younger generations have shunned kit building (be it railcars, autos, ships, planes, or structures) - for they are missing out on honing skills and the wonderful sense of satisfaction of "I built it".
You are exactly right about "missing out"...My early teen years involved building AMF and other model cars with modified engines, interiors, bodywork, etc. You could get a good AMF kit for $1.49. I won a small trophy a a hobby shop for modifying a Corvette with a Chrysler turbine engine, bodywork, cloth interior, and gold paint. Building a model is a great teaching tool that improves your skills and an understanding of rolling stock as it functions during operation.
I agree with you. at 76 years I'm building two Ambroid kits as of now. When done will be building a 5 car passenger train by LaBelle.
Bob Campbell
tstage...Wayne, Did you order one of their newer 8,000 gal tank cars that they are releasing?....
I'm a little bit late with my reply, but yes,I did.Here's the r-t-r version, which needs some paint on the wheels and axles, a late-'30s re-weigh date, and some weathering before it's really r-t-r...
...and the kit version, which needs a bit more work, but it looks like fun and pretty simple, too:
I'm currently working on some scratchbuilt cars and this...
...apparently, you can make kits out of r-t-r stuff, too!
Wayne
I have similar tastes, Benjamin, I think because my modeling started with customizing or hot rodding AMT 1/25 vehicles. In college, I did military modeling, though a pale imitation of what they are doing today. But in both cases, making it MINE and not like yours was a big part of my enjoyment. When I switched to scale trains in grad school, the same motivation was important, so I was weathering back when discussions like this were focused on that topic, rather than kits vs RTR.
I build kits, and I buy ready-to-roll freight cars and engines as kits to cut up and make into New Haven RR specific cars and engines, or specialized cars. I go through the consignment section of the local hobby shop (that I'm blessed to have) and have bought unmade LaBelle, MDC 3-in-1, E&B, and Westerfield kits, as well as finished cars going back to the 60s from Varney, AHM, Tyco, Athearn, Bowser and others. Some to use as is, but others to change out the trucks, couplers, shave off grabs and ladders, lower the height of the body to match a specific prototype car, etc. I make my own kits from these. I know it's called kitbashing, but I think the operative word is 'kit.' I still have my Model Railroader's Dollar Model Car Project Book from the 60s, and I'm going to make six of the cars from there with the new materials, resin rivet decals, and glues that didn't exist back then. You have Intermountain and Red Caboose kits, and I'd love to know more about them. (rsullivanjr_1952@yahoo.com) Several of the older bodies are great for modifying, and who cares what is printed/painted on for lettering since decals are available. You should be happy they aren't Gloor-Craft (I think that was how it was spelled) kits. I already made all of mine. If you forgot, it's a box of strip wood, wire and directions. They come out nice once you spend the many hours of applying sanding sealer then sanding, the repeat, then repeat, then repeat till you have a satin smooth metal finish with the tiny strip wood pieces representing the weld lines. Don't be discouraged. See if your local hobby shop has a consignment section, and if they don't let me know, and I'll help you get with mine. I know I paid about 30% to 60% more than the original price on all the unmade kits in the box in my consignment section at the hobby shop. While these were all craftsman style kits, even discontinued almost shake-the-box kits should be worth close to if not more than the original price. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but that's my opinion. Thanks for listening.
Obviously there are a lot of us out there who still build kits. While the Intermountain, Proto 2000, Red Caboose kits are enjoyable, I really love the older wood kits - Ambroid, Qualitycraft, Northeastern. They're fairly easy to find at relatively low prices. I build them pretty much per the instructions, but add additional/upgraded detail. Keeps me busy.
Carl Neste
I still build kits (mostly Athearn, MDC, and Accurail) because I enjoy the process. Craftsman kits, with their extra details, I generally don't build. My own rule is that I don't pay more than $5 for an unassembled kit (from the 3 makers above) unless it is a custom painted one, or of a rare car that I cannot find anywhere else. My tops is $10 a kit.
I have collected over 100 cars that fit my time period and region using this rule. The only time I purchased an assembled car was a limited-production Spring Mills Depot covered hopper.
I like taking basic kits and adding weathering, metal wheels, couplers, and weights and building up a roster of affordable equipment. RTR cars cost several times as much and I don't get the fun of building them.
Modeling the D&H in 1984: http://dandhcoloniemain.blogspot.com/
I've got a caboose kit from Bowser waiting for a decoder to arrive, then I plan on putting it together. One thing I like about kits is that I can upgrade the wheels and add a brakeman with a working lantern, without having to disassemble and reassemble everything.
wp8thsubThere's a reason the more involved kits languish on show tables, and remain unbuilt so many years after they were initially sold. When most modelers talk about their love of car kits, they're thinking Athearn blue box, Accurail and the like.
Rob,
I think this remains a mostly standard gauge discussion. When it comes to narrowgauge, maybe the reason no one's mentioned that yet is they're building SOMETHING for their layout -- or just building kits because they enjoy it, not that there's really anything it proves, one way or another.
It's a part of the hobby so engrained among narrowgaugers we hardly notice it being such an issue with others. Bring on the complex kits, we love them. Then again, those of us in HOn3 love our Blackstone RTR, too -- gives us more time to build something else
True, there's fewer kits coming on the market, but for our needs, if old ones are rerun we're good and there's a pretty deep supply of unbuilt NG "dreams," too. Our subject matter is pretty fixed by now and so has the development of kits to build most of the commin stuff if we choose -- and the really common stuff may even end up RTR. We won't sweat the small stuff, because we've got to leave something to scratch, right?
I will admit ditching seveal R/Robb drop-bottom gon kits on Ebay after Blackstone's stunning RTR version arrived, so it does happen, just not a sign of an impending kit-apocalypse for we NGers.
riogrande5761Moral of the story is kit building skills are, more often than not, useful in the RTR world and most experienced model railroaders know this.
So absolutely true. It's not "them or us." It's a continuum of skills sets that the practical modeler should choose their comfort zone within. What works to satisfy your urge to go [model] railroading is what's most important.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
ATLANTIC CENTRALI buy my share of RTR, but I have yet to take one out of the box, put it on the layout, and be happy with it, except for possibly the stuff from Spring Mills Depot. First, every piece of rolling stock must have genuine standard head Kadee couplers.......
True. I've managed to take most of my RTR stuff out of the box and be able to run it, but being happy? Much of the time you can see couplers offset from neighboring cars etc. and of course many of the RTR cars I have bought don't have Kadee's - namely Atlas and Athearn, and some of my older RTR Intermountain and Walthers cars purchased before they switched over to Kadee's or the Proto metal couplers which are virtually identical to Kadee's. Then theres the parts loose in the box that will need to be reglued on - such as my Athearn Genesis 89' TOFC flat cars - most of those will need re-attached.
Moral of the story is kit building skills are, more often than not, useful in the RTR world and most experienced model railroaders know this.
If you have a large fleet, especially of RTR cars (and kits) that have been in storage awaiting a layout, there is a big job ahead in getting couplers replaced, and adjusted etc. I've found the Athearn plastic couplers to be the worst offenders, both the older McHenry's and the newer scale looking couplers - they all seem to be guilty of false uncouplings or fail to couple, get stuck in the open or closed position. Some day Athearn really needs to give in to the schwartz and convert to proper operating Kadee's.
Accurail work more reliably than the Athearn plastic couplers, but look thick and aweful so of course those are on the docket for replacement too. The Kadee clone era has not been a panacea when it began, but rather just delayed the inevidable and maybe bought some folks time but as time bears out, most find in the end, it's still better to "switch than fight" the constant issues.
So make sure you have your glue, Kadee height gauge, Kadee couplers, Kadee fiber washers, Needle nose pliers, tweezers, small screw drivers, NMRA wheel gauge at minimum.
I still build kits. In fact I went to the LHS that started me in the hobby back in 1968 this past summer on a visit to Iowa and bought three old unfinished kits from the shops attic customer resale area. The most satisfying kits I have done are old Walther's heavy weight Pullman passenger cars complete with interior details. I have about five different cars from observation to diner to combo mail baggage and a few coaches. They were reasonably priced and pretty neat when completed.
Jim
I don't mind kits. I build them with my kid and we have a good time.
I will say a lot of the complicated ones do make me angry, but that is due to me not having time, patience or solitude to work in.
I like the stuff we can knock out in a night or two in between getting to the club.
I still have a good amount of kits left to build. Need a lot of work on my grab iron technique......................those things make me flat out angry.
I'm dying to see what else Scaletrains does in their Kit Classic line, would be nice to see more quality kits nowadays.
For those who are truly interested in building diesels from kits, Hobbytown of Boston is going back into production.
Fred W
The cars on the left with the silver vans started life as kits,
while the ones on the right with the painted vans started life as Ready to Roll.
Both have been reworked with the same modifications:
I still build lots of these kinds of kits, made when I was child and before:
And I just bought four of these:
http://www.springmillsdepot.com/n-34modelphotos.htm
Still firmly in both camps - kits and RTR
Sheldon
It occurs to me that the more of this thread I read, the more some people may be missing the point. None of us are lacking in things to do on our railroads, there is always something to be improved, changed or added. That being said, why is whether or not we build our rolling stock or not even relevant? We still have to check and adjust wheel gauges, couplers, truck movement, etc.
In the grand scheme, it's really a drop in an endless sea of things to do on a model railroad. The time will be spent somewhere else in the hobby.
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
Yes, in 1975 I do remember Mantua. I think Model Power also was an RTR label, in addition to Tyco and AHM. I think Varney was gone by then.
Tyco, AHM, Mantua, Model Power....I thought Athearn BB kits were better than all of them at the time.
- Douglas