Sheldon, my question is this.
You run the Intermountain locos in DC at 13.5 volts.
I run my Intermountain locos in DCC at 13.5 volts.
Why do your Intermountain locos run fine while mine run slow?
Alton Junction
Rich, and again, my Proto C&O freight F units are fine speed wise, but the combination of no "as built" undecodated units and the gearing is a non starter for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL which pulls passenger trains with F units.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The difference is simple, DCC decoders vs no decoders. I clocked a three unit Intermountain F unit set just last night at 77 SMPH at 13.5 volts. Prototype top speeds ranged from 55 to 102 depending on gearing, with 65 being "standard".
The difference is simple, DCC decoders vs no decoders. I clocked a three unit Intermountain F unit set just last night at 77 SMPH at 13.5 volts. Prototype top speeds ranged from 55 to 102 depending on gearing, with 65 being "standard".
My NCE PH-Pro puts out 13.5 volts as well.
Rich
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Intermountain is my first choice in F units, Genesis is a close second, for the reasons I have already explained. Proto units are nice, but I'm not crazy about the slower gearing, or the limited availablity of undecorated options. Your experience with these three brands interest me, Sheldon, especially because my experience differs from yours. I have no problem with the gearing on Proto locos, but I find the Intermountain locos to run too slow due to their gearing. I have previously written a thread on this gearing issue and talked to Intermountain about it. They acknowledge the slower gearing but offer no good explanation. In my experience, the Intermountain locos run slower than the prototype. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Intermountain is my first choice in F units, Genesis is a close second, for the reasons I have already explained. Proto units are nice, but I'm not crazy about the slower gearing, or the limited availablity of undecorated options.
Intermountain is my first choice in F units, Genesis is a close second, for the reasons I have already explained. Proto units are nice, but I'm not crazy about the slower gearing, or the limited availablity of undecorated options.
Your experience with these three brands interest me, Sheldon, especially because my experience differs from yours. I have no problem with the gearing on Proto locos, but I find the Intermountain locos to run too slow due to their gearing. I have previously written a thread on this gearing issue and talked to Intermountain about it. They acknowledge the slower gearing but offer no good explanation. In my experience, the Intermountain locos run slower than the prototype.
Because I have a few minutes to kill, I'll offer a few more thoughts.
First, if you read my earlier responses, Intermountain is my first choice in F units, Genesis is a close second, for the reasons I have already explained.
Proto units are nice, but I'm not crazy about the slower gearing, or the limited availablity of undecorated options.
Unlike those of you willing to preorder, or who may prefer the limited "exclusive" nature of brass, I actually dislike, even resent, the lack of "off the shelf" availablity of these products.
This is another factor that drives me away from more recent Proto offerings, and toward Intermountain, with Genesis floating in the middle.
Intermountain, and Athearn, in that order, regarding F units, still seem to be providing more "on the shelf" inventory than Walthers.
Every time I have wanted another set, my local dealer has been able to just pick up the phone and get them from Intermountain.........and they still have drives without those pesky decoders last I checked.
Power packs......45 years ago, when I first saw the control system at the Severna Park club, I knew I would never be happy with just a power pack.
When Command Control first showed up, I was interested. But I quickly figured out it would not meet all my needs. For me, wireless throttles are more important than individual control. And fully intergrated control with CTC and signals was necessary.
Just like some of you cannot imagine trains without DCC, I can't imagine trains without wireless throttles and signals. DCC did not offer wireless throttles in the very beginning.......
So my throttles are Aristo radio throttles, and simply do not work with dual mode decoders.
Cab assignments, turnout controls, CTC, and signaling, is all intergrated in one system, with a working no load track voltage of 13.8, 10 cabs, each with its own 4 amp regulated power supply.
Because the DC motor cintrol track power is pulse width modulated, all the pulses are full voltage. Typical model locomotive headlight wiring schemes all see this as 12 volts all the time, so headlights come on full brightness even before the loco moves, and I have little or no headlight troubles, lamps, Leds, 12v or 1.5v, they all work well.
So I will now just go play with my cheap little mass produced plastic trains with no brains........
BRAKIE I recently forked over $25.00 to have LEDs installed in my Genesis GP9.To my mind that's fixing a problem Athearn should have fixed by now. The other manufacturers uses LEDs in their DCC ready or DCC/Sound equipped locomotives and that includes Bachmann. But,like I mention I'm thinking about getting a Topeka Cab GP7.
I recently forked over $25.00 to have LEDs installed in my Genesis GP9.To my mind that's fixing a problem Athearn should have fixed by now. The other manufacturers uses LEDs in their DCC ready or DCC/Sound equipped locomotives and that includes Bachmann. But,like I mention I'm thinking about getting a Topeka Cab GP7.
Life has been good ever since.
Sheldon--
For the record, I abandoned and sold the MTH DCS system (that I once was a fan of) after my sons got kinda bored with steam, some years ago. The MRC Tech 6 Sound Controller 2.0 actually runs some engines slightly faster in DCC Mode than they run in plain DC mode. I don't know why that is true, but with some of my engines it seems to be, I guess depending upon the decoder in them.
I'm pretty sure the MRC Tech 6 is closer to 12-13 volts, max, in plain DC and not the 16 volts of MTH.
So my Athearn Santa Fe F's which were supposed to run together would not. They ran at speeds so different from one another that they would uncouple (and yes, I had Kadee couplers on them, if I recall). The A and B of an AB set would literally not run together in plain DC. Nor would the A run with other A's, but at different speeds.
These were prior to 2011 Genesis units, if I recall. I have only attempted some Genesis GP7's, 15-1's, and rtr SD45T-2's since 2011.
The SD45T-2's were the nicest models of all Athearn diesels I owned in the last 15 years. Best QA/QC and they ran well. Oh, I had one Reading Genesis GP-7 that was awesome. Just opted to do something other than Reading and had trouble finding a decent RS-3 in green and yellow...never found one and gave up.
Others may see it differently.
John
riogrande5761To me, it's not a deal breaker and I'm not going to avoid buying types of diesels that are important to me over a light bulb, but I understand there are a few that do.
I recently forked over $25.00 to have LEDs installed in my Genesis GP9.To my mind that's fixing a problem Athearn should have fixed by now. The other manufacturers uses LEDs in their DCC ready or DCC/Sound equipped locomotives and that includes Bachmann.
But,like I mention I'm thinking about getting a Topeka Cab GP7.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
riogrande5761 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Mike, I'm not disputing the problem, I just have not experienced it. All my Genesis F units are factory DC, many were bare drives for Highliner shells. None of my Genesis F units have burnt out, and when I installed the lamps in the ones I built from Highliner kits, I did not find it necessary to glue in the lamps. And, admittedly, in my world - what is a ditch light? I model an era when they were just thinking about turning headlights on during the day........some of my stuff has Mars lights, but I don't go out of my way to add them to anything. Sheldon It sounds like you have been lucky, but the OP is probably interested in trends and issues affecting enough people that he may want to include that in his decision making. An "outlyer" piece of data is just that, an outlyer. In other words, if one or two people didn't have bulbs burn out on any of their Genesis loco's but 50 people did, who are you going to believe? I'd think the large numbers speak the loudest. I have read reports from many many people complaining about Athearns light issues for the past 10+ years so I'd say thats "significant" enough to factor in. To me, it's not a deal breaker and I'm not going to avoid buying types of diesels that are important to me over a light bulb, but I understand there are a few that do.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Mike, I'm not disputing the problem, I just have not experienced it. All my Genesis F units are factory DC, many were bare drives for Highliner shells. None of my Genesis F units have burnt out, and when I installed the lamps in the ones I built from Highliner kits, I did not find it necessary to glue in the lamps. And, admittedly, in my world - what is a ditch light? I model an era when they were just thinking about turning headlights on during the day........some of my stuff has Mars lights, but I don't go out of my way to add them to anything. Sheldon
Mike, I'm not disputing the problem, I just have not experienced it. All my Genesis F units are factory DC, many were bare drives for Highliner shells.
None of my Genesis F units have burnt out, and when I installed the lamps in the ones I built from Highliner kits, I did not find it necessary to glue in the lamps.
And, admittedly, in my world - what is a ditch light? I model an era when they were just thinking about turning headlights on during the day........some of my stuff has Mars lights, but I don't go out of my way to add them to anything.
It sounds like you have been lucky, but the OP is probably interested in trends and issues affecting enough people that he may want to include that in his decision making. An "outlyer" piece of data is just that, an outlyer. In other words, if one or two people didn't have bulbs burn out on any of their Genesis loco's but 50 people did, who are you going to believe? I'd think the large numbers speak the loudest.
I have read reports from many many people complaining about Athearns light issues for the past 10+ years so I'd say thats "significant" enough to factor in. To me, it's not a deal breaker and I'm not going to avoid buying types of diesels that are important to me over a light bulb, but I understand there are a few that do.
I understand and agree, I full well admit that my experiance may well be a direct result of my unconventional control system, that actually conforms with original NMRA standards.....silly me.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
PRR8259 Well I have owned a half dozen Atherarn Genesis F units. Apparently some folks on here have not run theirs much. The ones I owned had issues running at different speeds and uncoupling due to speed variations in plain DC mode. Also the wheel plating was crap and started coming off within 20 hours or less. The light bulbs dont last in plain dc mode either. There are good reasons I prefer brass. I always had very good experiences with the running performance of Overland Models tower gear drive diesels. Some brass f units have been gorgeous and some not. If money is a concern I think p2k F units are the best of the plastic because they have run the best for me. Intermountain F units tend to sit nose high and that bothers me. I was not able to fix mine to sit level front to rear. They run ok. Some Challenger Imports f units have coupling issues where things do not fit or mu correctly. My problems were with WP units which I resold and they held their value.
Well I have owned a half dozen Atherarn Genesis F units. Apparently some folks on here have not run theirs much. The ones I owned had issues running at different speeds and uncoupling due to speed variations in plain DC mode. Also the wheel plating was crap and started coming off within 20 hours or less. The light bulbs dont last in plain dc mode either.
There are good reasons I prefer brass. I always had very good experiences with the running performance of Overland Models tower gear drive diesels. Some brass f units have been gorgeous and some not.
If money is a concern I think p2k F units are the best of the plastic because they have run the best for me.
Intermountain F units tend to sit nose high and that bothers me. I was not able to fix mine to sit level front to rear. They run ok.
Some Challenger Imports f units have coupling issues where things do not fit or mu correctly. My problems were with WP units which I resold and they held their value.
Never had any coupler/uncoupling issues......but the first thing I do with EVERY piece of equipment is replace the plastic semi scale couplers with regular head metal Kadee couplers. All my F units are three and four unit powered sets, they run fine together.
I have one set of Proto F units, and they run fine. But I use some of my ATLANTIC CENTRAL F's for passenger service and the Proto's are slow, I don't like that they changed the gearing.
But again, I don't run my DC engines on the MTH promoted 16 volts, and none of them have sound or decoders, I run them near the "original" NMRA Standard/RP 12 volts........
My Intermountain units look fine, I think I had one that was nose high, but was able to fix it. I have a bunch of their FP7's, another reason I prefer Intermountain - undecorated kits.......which are now hard to find in Genesis........for both F units and FP units. Genesis made FP's, but not undecorated.
And again, the Proto undecorated model comes with a late 60's modernized shell with a snow plow, not suitable for my purposes..........
So Intermountain remains the big winner F unit at my house, with Genesis being second, Proto third........
But my needs are different from those who simply buy everything RTR.....and resale value is not a factor for things you are never going to sell........
PS - who would want my fleet lettered in ATLANTIC CENTRAL anyway.........
Well I have owned a half dozen Athearn Genesis F units. Apparently some folks on here have not run theirs much. The ones I owned had issues running at different speeds and uncoupling due to speed variations in plain DC mode. Also the wheel plating was crap and started coming off within 20 hours or less. The light bulbs dont last in plain dc mode either.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL None of my Genesis F units have burnt out, and when I installed the lamps in the ones I built from Highliner kits, I did not find it necessary to glue in the lamps.
ATLANTIC CENTRALNone of my Genesis F units have burnt out, and when I installed the lamps in the ones I built from Highliner kits, I did not find it necessary to glue in the lamps.
Sheldon,
I think the complaint about Athearn headlights is more about them gluing them in rather than the bulbs burning out. At some point bulbs are going to burn out. When you make it difficult to remove and replace a headlight without damaging the shell, that's where Athearn needs to change their assembly practices.
I usually replace any incandescent headlight with a 3mm LED and I NEVER glue an LED in. It's either press fit in a #32 (0.116" OD) hole, or the bulb end is secured in place with a short piece of black heat shrink. If and when I should ever need to replace the LED headlight, all I need to do is unsolder the wires and remove the LED.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I have diesels from all the mentioned manufacturers (including a Genesis F3/7 with MRC sound) and they all have good and bad points. I have had most of the Gensis bulbs burn out and replace them with SMD's glued to a short pc of 1.5 mm fiber optic fiber.
I only have one brass diesel (SD9 by Hallmark) and it is in a display case, but the brass steamers I have, a United 2-8-2 and Tenshodo 4-6-4 have a couple of advantages over their plastic counterparts (imo)and that is weight and the fact that I can pick them up without worrying about breaking some small detail off.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
As for the incadesent bulbs, they can be replaced with LED's weather DC or DCC. That task is fairly simple and if one does not have the skill required I am sure some one out there can be found to do it a fair price.
mlehmanBut the DCC command station adjustment solved the problem with much less labor and cost than that.
I'll try that since I been mulling over the idea of getting a Topeka cab GP7.Still that's no excuse for crappy bulbs in what is suppose to be a top of the line locomotive.
The sad part is Athearn is well aware of the problem.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI don't know if Genesis F unit bulbs burn out fast on DCC - but it is pretty easy to change on an F unit.
On the Genesis F units, many have fairly decent reproductions of the dual filament lamp assemblies used. So each headlight has two tiny bulbs that require a fairly exact size replacement be used to preserve the detail. Depending on the road, there may be two lamp assemblies on a F unit. So 4 bulbs to potentially fry, even assuming nothing like ditch lights, overhead beacons, etc are also involved.
Athearn glues the bulbs in. I've found no bulb that really matches the size unless you go directly to Athearn for them. They are 1.5 volt and driven by a small board that supplies the proper step down from 12 volts on DC when unmodified. That does OK, but people still report losing lamps on DC. What happens is that going to DCC ups the supply voltage to the typical 14 v or more. But people tend to calculate as if they're stepping down a 12 v circuit, because that works most of the time with such conversions. However, the bulbs Athearn uses tend to go out rapidly when under the same circumstances others seem to weather this small difference when converted.
Not wanting to have to visit Athearn every time a bulb is lost had me simply convert mine initially. But the DCC command station adjustment solved the problem with much less labor and cost than that.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
ATLANTIC CENTRALGenesis SD70M
Russell
csxns ATLANTIC CENTRAL Genesis light bulbs Just had all of the lights to go out on a Genesis SD70M but the unit is from the first run and DC think that is good for a loco that old.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Genesis light bulbs
Just had all of the lights to go out on a Genesis SD70M but the unit is from the first run and DC think that is good for a loco that old.
Russell, you will have to excuse my lack of knowledge, but how old is this loco? I have no idea when Athearn first came out with the Genesis SD70M. Being a modeler of the 50's and not really being a rail fan of present day railroading, I have to admit that I could not even visually identify an SD70M, its just another big modern diesel to me......
But if you got reasonable service out of the light bulbs with a DC model, then it seems it may be mainly a DCC thing where so many complain abouthe bulbs.
mlehman Sheldon, My comments on brass were generic. In the case of F units, I do agree that nothing brass compares to what you can find for running quality and detail to several of the plastic choices.
My comments on brass were generic. In the case of F units, I do agree that nothing brass compares to what you can find for running quality and detail to several of the plastic choices.
Mike, I understood your responses to the various comments, and agree completely.
It just seemed strange that the OP asked about a specific prototype, a train pulled by F units, and once again we hear the same comments about Genesis light bulbs, brass is better, etc.
I don't know if Genesis F unit bulbs burn out fast on DCC - but it is pretty easy to change on an F unit. On my system, maximum track voltage of 13.8 pulse modulated DC, I've never had problems with any factory headlight setup - but I don't have decoders in any locos either.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL riogrande5761 ATLANTIC CENTRAL But what do I know, I'm just a guy a who started working in the local hobby shop at age 13.......in 1970. Sheldon Judging by what you posted, quite a lot. So why ask such a daft question? smh Agreed, sarcasm does not always play well in print.......
riogrande5761 ATLANTIC CENTRAL But what do I know, I'm just a guy a who started working in the local hobby shop at age 13.......in 1970. Sheldon Judging by what you posted, quite a lot. So why ask such a daft question? smh
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But what do I know, I'm just a guy a who started working in the local hobby shop at age 13.......in 1970. Sheldon
But what do I know, I'm just a guy a who started working in the local hobby shop at age 13.......in 1970.
Judging by what you posted, quite a lot. So why ask such a daft question? smh
Agreed, sarcasm does not always play well in print.......
My wife says 'but what do I know' quite a bit also but it's not needed; I can see she knows a lot! Happy wife happy life!
What follows is opinion. Others are free to disagree.
There's only one reason to buy a brass diesel. That's when it's an unusual model that has never been offered in any other form, or when those other models are impossible to find at the shows, swap meets, ebay, etc. The popular diesel models have almost all been offered in high-quality plastic, with outstanding drives that are quieter, smoother, and more trouble free than almost any of the old brass offerings. In addition, if you see a model diesel whose contours aren't quite like those of the prototype, it's more likely to be brass.
I have just one brass HO diesel. It's a Fairbanks Morse H20-44 that has never been available in any other form. It's not bad, but the details are shallow, the drive is more noisy than my other diesels, and I had to replace a broken gear. I'm glad to have it because it's a type that's important to me. But if that model were available in plastic from one of our more reliable producers, you could sign me up for at least four more.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL mlehman I don't buy for investment purposes, I buy for operational needs, so not real concerned about whether or not the original purchaser took a big hit or what the investment possibilities might be to sell high later. What matters is whether I think the price is right NOW for ME. Haven't had much of a budget lately, but there are a lot of brass bargains out there right now. Amen to this thinking. If I was thinking one bit about the resale value of a model train when I purchased it, I would simply never buy any - at any price.
mlehman I don't buy for investment purposes, I buy for operational needs, so not real concerned about whether or not the original purchaser took a big hit or what the investment possibilities might be to sell high later. What matters is whether I think the price is right NOW for ME. Haven't had much of a budget lately, but there are a lot of brass bargains out there right now.
I don't buy for investment purposes, I buy for operational needs, so not real concerned about whether or not the original purchaser took a big hit or what the investment possibilities might be to sell high later. What matters is whether I think the price is right NOW for ME. Haven't had much of a budget lately, but there are a lot of brass bargains out there right now.
Amen to this thinking. If I was thinking one bit about the resale value of a model train when I purchased it, I would simply never buy any - at any price.
Golf is even worse. Clubs depreciate dramatically with each year in play and as manufacturers offer each new edition. I recently sold my five year old driver that I bought for $499 for a measly $70 - - - and I was happy to get that.