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Model Railroading Cliches, Logical Fallacies & Just Plain Unprototypicality

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Posted by carl425 on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 7:55 AM

Graffen
And regarding the Rabbit warren type, is my new layout one?

I always thought of the "rabbit warren" as the type where a train would disappear into one tunnel and you couldn't guess where it would come out.  I thought they were really cool when I was about 10 years old.

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

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Posted by Grand River Models on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 8:38 AM

EZ Track® on carpet.  Very trendy now, but it's not railroad modeling.

 

 

Barry

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Posted by Steven Otte on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 8:47 AM

A warning: As long as participants stay away from lofty pronouncements of what is and isn't Real Model Railroading®, this thread can stay open. Any whiff of disparaging your fellow Forum members' modeling style, and the admin hammer comes out.

--
Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editor
sotte@kalmbach.com

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Posted by E-L man tom on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 9:32 AM

Catt

Red Wing Milling and New River Mine are not kits.They are prepackaged Kit bashing and scratchbuilding supplies.

 

Touche', Catt!

Tom Modeling the free-lanced Toledo Erie Central switching layout.
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Posted by John Busby on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 9:58 AM

Hi carl425

That is exactly what a "rabbit warren" layout is one with a multitude of tunnels at different levels and directions with a mountain setting, and usualy but not always a quarry somewhere and one station.

Where it is impossible for the viewer to know where the train is going to come out at any given time.

Thanks for proving children like them.

They where often over done and greatly favored in the UK at least by the OO9

narrow gauge fraternaty the closest in the US would be HOn 2 1/2.

I am old enough to know better but I still find them entertaining.

The closest prototype is the Darjeeling Himalayan Railway where a lot of the ideas came from.

You don't see them around much now the narrow gauge lines you do see have matured a lot since then, and have a much greater fidellity to something more real.

But that is in some ways a mixed blessing.

regards John

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Posted by carl425 on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 11:41 AM

Steven Otte
Any whiff of disparaging your fellow Forum members' modeling style, and the admin hammer comes out.

"REAL" model railroaders don't have moderators on their forums. Big Smile

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

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Posted by Milepost 266.2 on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 1:01 PM

USMC_Grunt

 

Isn't this so for any vehicles or figures on a layout UNLESS you move them around for each operating session? For that matter,,, Do the seasons or weather change on a layout? Its not normally a sunny bright cloudless day EVERY DAY :-) But hey if you like it that way...build it that way!

This leads into an issue I have regarding figures in general.  Enough with the crazy action poses!  Too many figures look like they're auditioning for Cirque du Soleil.  Hands in the air, standing on one foot, Looking like they're running/tripping/losing their balance all the time.  For people frozen in time, it just looks bad.  Cheap figures are the worst offenders, but there are plenty of frantic Preiser and Woodland Scenics folks out there, charging incoherently into their eternal now.

One of the best uses of figures I ever saw was on a shelf layout set in the midwest.  Cars were in parking lots, figures were either seated, leaning on something, or standing at rest.  You know, they way people actuallty look.  very understated, and very nice.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 2:19 PM

tomikawaTT
And if S-curves are really a problem (Not, when connected by proper transitions) I'm in big trouble.

Chuck,A terrible "S" curve can be found when using Atlas Snap Switches for crossovers.While it works with 40-50' cars and 4 axle locomotives I would never ever recommend it even though I use snap switch crossovers at least three or four times on 1x6' ISLs.

40 years later and I'm much wiser in designing ISLs and can design a decent ISL using 3-4 switches and have no need for crossovers or runarounds.

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by steemtrayn on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 3:06 PM

One thing that irks me is seeing an exqisitely weathered car with rust accumulated around the cast-on grabs.

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Posted by chutton01 on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 4:15 PM

Steven Otte
A warning: As long as participants stay away from lofty pronouncements of what is and isn't Real Model Railroading®, this thread can stay open. Any whiff of disparaging your fellow Forum members' modeling style, and the admin hammer comes out.

Is that the main purpose of these forums?

Moving along, so far no love for the Spaghetti bowls I see.
I guess these type of layouts could be made into "rabbit warrens" layouts with well placed hills and scenery, but some also operate in the open - I recall a track plan from an Atlas Snap-Tack Layout book many decades ago, last plan in the book IIRC, loops and loops of track around a reservoir, with a huge dam and power lines for extra fun - it was impressive all right, but even I as a young kid couldn't figure out the implied prototypical reason for its existance.
So Spaghetti bowls are silly...unless you're modeling NY Harbor marine terminals back in the days, like say the CNJ Bronx terminal...

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 5:46 PM

chutton01
Moving along, so far no love for the Spaghetti bowls I see.

Back in the day those "Spaghetti bowls " was all the rage and that design was carried forth in several layout books.

Even today we are still seeing "here a track,there a track everywhere a track track with grades so steep a Shay or a cog engine is needed to climb it..

My point less is best as is keeping grades to minimum.

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by andrechapelon on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 7:13 PM

Unrealistic? How about stopping a passenger train at a station where the "platform" is shorter than a single car in the train and the rear hangs out into open country?

Andre

It's really kind of hard to support your local hobby shop when the nearest hobby shop that's worth the name is a 150 mile roundtrip.
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Posted by ricktrains4824 on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 7:26 PM

Grand River Models

EZ Track® on carpet.  Very trendy now, but it's not railroad modeling.

 

That depends on color and style of carpet! Smile, Wink & Grin

More of the JUP, pre-made grass mats... The cheap kind. Works well enough to add the green and texture, but needs lots of help to look realistic. (When you get it on sale cheaper than (model Wink) dirt however.... It works well for a base layer.) The biggest problem they suffer from, is nowhere do you find that uniform of a color and height of grass, unless you are at a golf course. (Most of us do not have a model golf course, maybe the next big cliché? Quick, lets get a patent on a HO scale golf cart and golfer, to sell with the grass mats! Big Smile)

And, more JUP, running equipment from modern times on a steam layout, and vice-a-versa. (Except "railfan excursions" Smile allowing steam on a modern era layout (AKA glorified train set, to follow the discussion)... Smile, Wink & Grin)

And yes, I have been guilty of all of the above.... Including EZ track on the floor, pre-layout era.

Ricky W.

HO scale Proto-freelancer.

My Railroad rules:

1: It's my railroad, my rules.

2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.

3: Any objections, consult above rules.

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Posted by SouthPenn on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 10:08 PM

Model rail roads that are set in the 1880s - 1890s and the buildings and rolling stock are modeled to look like they are 100 years old already. Shouldn't everything be relatively new?

South Penn
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Posted by chutton01 on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 10:08 PM

ricktrains4824
(Quick, lets get a patent on a HO scale golf cart and golfer, to sell with the grass mats!)


'Fraid you're way too late. - heck, even MR had an N-scale golf cart on one of the modules in it's T-Trak challenge last month.
Now, looking at that golfer figure swinging his club and recalling the post above concerning model figures frozen in mid-action poses...

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 11:49 PM

The layouts of my childhood days included just about anything you have mentioned here, but boy were they fun to operate - which meant having a number of trains zoom by at the speed of lightning!

When building a layout today, we have a lot more means and methods available than in those days. We are searching for excellence and endavour perfection, but shouldn´t be step back and ask ourselves the question whether we have as much fun as we had back then?

My skills and abilities are waning due to a number of health issues I am battling, and so is my confidence in what I am doing. For that matter,I find working on my current layout(s) highly stressing. I may have to go back to those simple, unprototypical, packed with logical fallacies and model railroading cliches layouts and thoroughly enjoy it!

 

 

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Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, June 16, 2016 12:08 AM

andrechapelon

Unrealistic? How about stopping a passenger train at a station where the "platform" is shorter than a single car in the train and the rear hangs out into open country?

Andre

 

Not so far fetched.

I used to board the Lake Shore, Capitol or Pennsylvanian in Waterloo, Indiana frequently. When he was running on track two (the dispatcher would seldom cross him over to the real platform on one) the conductor would have a heck of a time spotting the steps on the eighteen feet or-so, of wood ties and asphalt that was a platform.

Go to 3:33

Regards, Ed

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Posted by John Busby on Thursday, June 16, 2016 3:45 AM

Hi ricktrains4824

I have grass mat on my layout not the brand you mention but I am very slowly getting through it one domestic lawn at a time.

thats all its any good for in a model railroad setting, domestic lawn and suburban parks because its mono tone and if you get the right one it does look like manicured lawn.

regards John

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 16, 2016 4:22 AM

What´s wrong with a grass mat?

Like many other products in this hobby, there are grass mats and there are grass mats, just a little more realistic.

Just check various products from Busch or Heki.

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Posted by John Busby on Thursday, June 16, 2016 6:46 AM

Hi andrechapelon

Mini station long train

Happens a lot on the prototype in the US, AU and UK and that's just the ones I know about.

And it is often out in the country locations looks odd but is prototypical.

Better still it is one we as model railroaders can afford to do in our small empires.

regards John

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Posted by John Busby on Thursday, June 16, 2016 6:51 AM

Hi sir madog.

Will have to look out for the and then there are grass mat's that looks interesting.

Saw some of the new static tufts well to me they are new will be getting some of those when I work out the best way to use them.

regards John

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Posted by wojosa31 on Thursday, June 16, 2016 3:04 PM

SouthPenn

Model rail roads that are set in the 1880s - 1890s and the buildings and rolling stock are modeled to look like they are 100 years old already. Shouldn't everything be relatively new?

 

 
Maybe to those living in that era, they did. To an observer from modern times, they will always look 100 years old.
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Posted by dknelson on Thursday, June 16, 2016 5:56 PM

andrechapelon

Unrealistic? How about stopping a passenger train at a station where the "platform" is shorter than a single car in the train and the rear hangs out into open country?

Andre

 

 
Or even worse, when the rear of the train is at the prior city's station.
 
Dave Nelson

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