Greetings -
Looking at possibly picking up my first brass locomotive - an [unpainted] ALCO MODELS steam switcher. It's nicely detailed and in very nice shape. Here's the description given by the seller:
The builder is Kumata (KMT) and was [hand] manufactured in 1977.
I've heard mixed reviews about ALCO brass. It is being offered by a reputable brass dealer. Is it worth the $300 consideration?
It mentions a sound cam but there's no mention of a decoder. How difficult would you expect it to be to convert it over to DCC?
Thanks for the input and perspective.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Hmmm...Just noticed that the "power supply" is designated as "AC". That would mean needing to remotor it for DC/DCC, yes? How much would a replacement NWSL motor typically cost?
tstageJust noticed that the "power supply" is designated as "AC".
I didn't know that there were any brass imports in HO that used AC.
He doesn't mean AC as used with DCC, does he?
I bet the AC is a typo or a misunderstanding. I'd wager it is straight DC.
The sound cam is a whole 'nother animal than the actually recorded electronic sound chips currently used. My memory grows fuzzy (heh - as if it was ever anything but) but I think the cam on an axle was meant to complete (or interrupt?) a circuit with each turn of the axle of something like AM-radio between-the-stations "white noise" that sounded surprisingly like steam exhaust. I no longer recall if the white noise was transmitted at high frequency via the rails, or was mechanically generated by something which rubbed on a wheel rim. Both systems were used. I think it was a sound system created by some Pacific Northwest modelers who wrote quite a bit for MR back in those days about logging and sound. Herb Chaudiere and Lyle Spears? I suspect I am butchering the spelling.
As for ALCO brass steam, I have one, a 2-10-2. A thing of beauty and nicely detailed. However never once was I able to run it on my or any layout. After five (actual, not scale) feet the valve gear would throw a screw (about the size of a pin head) for me to try to find in the ballast and lichen. I no longer have the eyesight to replace those screws, even assuming that somewhere in the workshop I laid in a supply of spares. I do not recall the engine being a very quiet runner, either, which for me made the issue of a sound system rather moot, if not mute.
I am sure whatever I paid for that locomotive was, adjusting for inflation, way over $300 today. The real question is, would I buy that same engine again regardless of price and outdated technology? And the answer is, knowing what I know now, a resounding, no,. But then I no longer model the steam era!
Dave Nelson
Make sure it's not for Marklin track. They use AC, but with a 3rd rail (studs in tie center). Don't know if brass was ever made for Marklin track, but you want to be sure.
Also, make sure it's not S gauge which also uses AC.
Paul
Thanks for the input fellas. The description states it is HO. I'll double-check with the seller to see if the AC is a typo or not.
As mentioned, I've heard mixed reviews about ALCO MODELS. While the model does look good in the pictures, I also want it to run well - without it dropping important screws or sounding like a coffee grinder.
Most Alco Models steam depended on the builder, I have a Streamlined PRR 4-6-2 that was built by KMT that runs beautifily.
I recall an Alco B-11 0-6-0 that was at our shop that ran well, it was also usable for the NKP.
Rick J
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
Alco imported several brass engines of varying quality. The only 0-6-0 I remember is a USRA with original details, although there may have been others. I have no experience with that particular engine, but the $300 asking price seems a bit salty to me. A P2K USRA 0-6-0 might be as good or better.
"AC" is certainly a misprint. The Alco engines were DC.
dti406I recall an Alco B-11 0-6-0 that was at our shop that ran well, it was also usable for the NKP. Rick J
Actually, Rick, that's the very locomotive that I'm looking at, at the moment:
Definitively not 3-rail AC!
I have never heard of any brass loco made to run on Marklin´s proprietary 3-rail AC system. The loco on the picture would not be able to run on Marklin track - the falnges are just not deep enough.
John Gurdak (the dealer who photographed the above loco) is a first rate dealer and imo as honest as anyone in the industry. He has done great on my behalf, actually obtained rare parts to fix a brass 4-6-6-4 that I was told by one importer they "did not have", etc.
If you email him questions, he will get back to you.
It's difficult for me to adequately describe in words how owning and operating, in virtually daily use, HO brass steam power is simply a thrill for me. The level of detailing on the brass (and some brass hybrid) power is just...a level above...what you typically are going to receive with rtr plastic. With the plastic and partial diecast/plastic you have to be very very careful of how you handle it as on any of them I've ever tried, it is easy for stuff to be damaged or fall off. Given the dollar value of some brass, I still handle it carefully, but if you lay a brass engine on its side, you generally don't have to worry about the window awnings or other stuff breaking off, etc. as can and does happen with plastic.
Although I have a few beautiful freight cars from Tangent and others, I find myself mostly just staring at the brass steamers when they run, in utter fascination.
I personally prefer some of the more expensive stuff like W&R imported steam, but there are certain models out there that have a reputation for being nearly "bulletproof" though not always the "quietest". I have owned the Westside SP 4-10-2 with the open frame motor, and it was one of the all time nicest running steamers I ever saw, because it had a good gearbox from the factory. At least the later PFM/United NKP Berkshires tend to have pretty good gearboxes and are very easily converted over to a can motor.
There are lots of nice Westside and PFM models out there that can be great buys, and Howard himself does use Alco Models steam power, too, on his layout.
Where we are right now is a lot of the former owners of brass steam are at a point in their lives where the models are being sold off, so there is an apparent glut of some models out there to be had. I wish you luck with whatever you decide to purchase.
I greatly recommend taking the time to personally get to know the brass dealers. They have a wealth of information to share and can help you find good value models to actually operate! Howard Zane is one of the nicest hosts if you can get to his house in Maryland (amazing over 3000 square feet ho layout currently running virtually all brass motive power, with amazing DCC/lights/sound after market installations).
John
PRR8259 John Gurdak (the dealer who photographed the above loco) is a first rate dealer and imo as honest as anyone in the industry. He has done great on my behalf, actually obtained rare parts to fix a brass 4-6-6-4 that I was told by one importer they "did not have", etc. If you email him questions, he will get back to you.
Thanks, John. I sent him a couple of emails earlier today already.
There are basically 2 kinds of brass: the shelf queens which in some cases are relatively rare, high value models that don't get run so much as collected by people who just appreciate the looks of them, and the runners which see lots of layout time.
A few models are actually good as both: the W&R steamers have exceptional quality built into them, are reputed to have stainless steel valve gear and tires on at least some of them, and can be run without even leaving marks on the drivers (I can personally testify to that; after many hours of running, one that I have has drivers that appear to be brand new). W&R was not at all the only importer who brought in quality product; the others mostly did too at varying times and with varying degrees of consistency. One just needs to learn which models made when, which is where getting to know the dealers becomes useful.
Alco models did have a few hit and misses (mostly the early diesel drives) but thier steam usualy ran well. PFM/United were one of the more bullet proof imports back in the day. I have a B&O 2-8-0 that will be going on consignment at the LHS as they have a narrow gauge engine I want. I find brass steam much easier to work on(3 screws and the boiler lifts off the chassis on most models). Alco's diesel models can be made to run well, but the cost exceeds the value, but I just like brass trains in general and enjoy the challenge to make a balky model run well. My little 2-8-0 has PFM sound, constant brightness light, and is professionaly painted and weathered. Enjoy that first model, and be warned, you can never own just one! Brass gets in your blood! Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
John got back to me on the 0-6-0 switcher. It is indeed DC and the can motor is quiet and runs smoothly.
John also mentioned that it could use a little lubing. He stated that he doesn't lube models prior to shipping because the grease could migrate onto the finish - especially in the summer, which makes sense.
Well, I'm giving it some real consideration. It's a cute l'il bugger and a NYC B-11 0-6-0 would be a nice contrast and compliment to my NYC U-3 USRA 0-8-0.
Thanks again for the input fellas.
Well, I mulled it over...and I'm now a proud owner of my first brass locomotive:
I'll post some pictures of it after it arrives and after I have a chance to test it on DC to see how it really performs.
Eventually I'd like to covert it to DCC. Since I'm in between layouts at the moment, it will give me plenty of time to tinker with it and to see whether I want to go with sound or motor-only control. I'd also like to add working front and rear headlights.
I compared it to prototype pictures of NYC B-11s on the Fallen Flag website and it appears to be fairly accurate. I'll also have to figure out which road number I want to detail it with after I paint it. So many things to ponder...
Congratulations! Seems like a reasonable first purchase, and I hope you are very happy with it! From the photos, it appears to be in truly first class condition.
Let us know how you make out with it, please.
What you may find out is that even within one class of steam power there often were considerable variations. Hopefully, you will find which one it is a model of.
PRR8259 What you may find out is that even within one class of steam power there often were considerable variations. Hopefully, you will find which one it is a model of. John
I did a little research last night in a couple of my NYC steam books and discovered that NYC B-Class 0-6-0s came in a whole-slew of variations. This one is a B-11 and the B-11s can break down into quite a few sub sub-classes; suffice it to say enough to begin running out of letters of the alphabet.
Supposedly this one is a B-11L and, according to my NYC references, these were used by the B&A (Boston & Albany). While I have not found a specific picture labeled as a B-11L, I have found a few pictures on the Fallen Flags website of NYC 0-6-0s that resemble it closely. I will use one of them to choose my prototype number from. Fun stuff!
I forgot to mention that this engine doesn't come with the original box but John said that he would provide "a suitable box for protection during shipping". I'll see if I can hunt down an empty Alco Models B-11 box on eBay sometime. I guess my other option is to use one of the Reboxx boxes.
I'd forgotten about the NYC/NKP 0-6-0 that Alco produced.
You'll probably be very happy with it. Those classes were never produced by anybody else, so there is no other version available from any other producer.
Two prototype examples exist.
ACY Two prototype examples exist. Tom
Poking around the Internet last night I found one of them in Troy, NY(?); it was a static display in front of a building. A recent photo (within the past year or two) showed the after-math from a moron who lost control of his vehicle and smashed into it. The tender looked like it took the worst of it.
For the benefit of all the readers:
For some railroads, like particularly Santa Fe, there is a brass guide available that summarizes every HO brass steam engine ever produced, what road numbers were modeled "correctly" and which road numbers were "close" along with the ones that are not, and what has to be changed to make them "correct". It has gone through at least 2 editions, with the most recent edition now including color photos of just about every single Santa Fe steam brass model ever produced (up to and including a few years ago, now).
These guides can turn up on Ebay and/or available from Amazon sellers.
Unfortunately, I do not know enough about NYC to know if such a brass guide exists for them. However, online photo documentation of NYC steam appears to be somewhat better than online Santa Fe steam photos.
Additionally, there are fine passenger car reference sources out there that can help one identify which brass passenger cars are correct for which roads, plus the Coach Yard website includes a listing of all past Coach Yard models, roads, and applicable date ranges they were in service.
PRR8259Unfortunately, I do not know enough about NYC to know if such a brass guide exists for them.
The Central Headlight, the publication of the New York Central System Historical Society, often includes a column called For The Modeler by Jim Benedict that would often review NYC related brass offerings among other modeling related stories.
When time permits I'll dig through the several stacks that I have on hand and see if I can come across anything related to Alco Models or any of the B class 0-6-0s.
I'm trying to assemble an index of sorts as I don't believe any exist for the Headlight Magazine but this is a daunting task that is not a top priority at the moment.
Congratulations on your purchase, Tom, and I hope you have many enjoyable years ahead with your adopted switcher!
Regards, Ed
Thanks, Ed! And thanks ahead of time for any effort at locating the information on the B-11s from the Central Headlight issues.
It's interesting that the headlight on the B-11s were mounted on either the top or front of the boiler plate smoke box door. As I look down through the pictures on the Fallen Flag website, there doesn't seem to be a clear distinction which B-11s were giving which headlight. Although I don't have proof of this, it seems that the boiler plate smoke box door mounted headlight was the more common of the two.
In 1944 the Central had 376 0-6-0 switchers, of these 121 were B-11s and the variations between the classes could be very minor, indeed. Sometimes just an inch or two difference in the stroke or bore of the cylinder justified a new sub-class.
The B-10s just ran out of sub-classes when they got to the B10z so they started the B-11a... and so forth.
If the model repersents a B-11L, Alco sure picked a rare example. The B&A only had one, the #144 and NYC proper had three, # 6745 - 6747.
Headlights were found in various locations but the mounting plate above the smokebox seems to have been the most common by far.
Thankfully, the Central was a popular road with the photographers and there is a pretty generous supply of photos.
Glad you're having FUN
Ed
tstageA recent photo (within the past year or two) showed the after-math from a moron who lost control of his vehicle and smashed into it.
The NYC B-11K, 6721, that is (was) on display at the New York Central's Utica Passenger station was actually involved in a recent "derailment". The guilty vehicle was a center-flow hopper ELTX 2131.
https://nycshs.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/img_2453.jpg
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2015/07/runaway_railroad_car_smashes_into_union_station_in_utica.html
Of course the media had this story all messed up but it was newsworthy just the same.
Just wanted to update you all. I received my brass 0-6-0 switcher this past Wednesday. Since it didn't come with its original box, I purchased a replacement Reboxx box for it from the seller. The seller did a GREAT job packing the contents inside the Reboxx containr (which included wrapping it in polyethylene), as well as the outside box it was mailed in.
Also, I only had the switcher out of the box for a quick inspection before wrapping it back up but it looks great. I'm out of town at the moment but I'll post pictures of it after I return home.
I knew the one founder of Rebox personally...great guy, J.P. Barger...a collector who may still be with us. His boxes are fantastic and virtually exact copies of the original brass boxes, but with much better foam than some of them had. Very worthwhile purchase!
Yea, I agree, John. While not necessarily inexpensive, they are exceptionally nice boxes.
I also like the fact that the lids don't fit all the way flush with the bottom side of the box. It makes it easier to remove the lid.
Here's the promised pics of my recent acquisition:
There's a small amount of tarnish on top of one of the steam cylinders and a disconnected pipe on a side reservoir tank.
Haven't had a chance to run her yet but hope to sometime next week.
Nice find Tom!
I hope it runs as good as it looks.
Brass is quite a ways down my priority list. Right now I need about $800.00 worth of Loksound decoders alone to get my modest fleet all properly equipped. OH, and there is that little thing called a layout which I have yet to start!
Still, brass steamers sure are nice to look at.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!