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First brass locomotive - Updated with pics

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Posted by PRR8259 on Sunday, September 11, 2016 10:20 PM

Hello Ian--

Sorry I just saw your post this evening.

You should be able to contact John Gurdak through the Uncle Dave's Brass website, as there are email addresses on there to contact him.

I don't have some other email address than what is on there, and I hope the funds for the consignment have cleared to the seller by now?

John

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Posted by NS1001 on Sunday, September 11, 2016 12:40 PM

I start reading MR back in Nov 1960 - that was the issue that reviewed the new Athearn heavyweight cars. There were photos of a layout that featured the GN S1 4-8-4 by PFM. I made it a goal to own one some day. I was only 13 but 3 years later I got one. Back in the early sixties brass cost little more than diecast locos. You could build a 5 by 9 layout with 24 radius track and run most brass sold. Add Kadee couplers and some sidings for switching on a wayfreight train and things were great. I would rather have new affordable brass today than all the electronic bells and whistles available today. But no, the American consumer had to buy TVs and cars driving the prices up for brass in Japan and Korea. Guess I am not with the times.

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Posted by ELD49 on Thursday, August 11, 2016 4:51 PM

 

Hello John,
I am sending you this communication as you have indicated a great respect of John Gurdak and I am wondering if you can arrange to put me in touch with him.

About 2 years ago my brother-in-law contacted John and arranged for him to sell the following two locomotives on consignment:

A United PFM Abernathy and Lougheed three truck Climax locomotive a United PFM Class B logging Climax. The first was advertised on Uncle Dave's Brass website for $3,995 US, the second engine was advertised for $395 US

On February 25th 2016 my brother-in Law received an e-mail from John letting him know that both the locomotives had sold at a recent train show. (Both listings were removed from his website March 28th 2016)
I understand that it was the last communication he received from John. Since that time, he has sent many e-mails to John and left many messages on his voice mail, but has never received a response.
We were really concerned that some disaster had happened to John which would account for his lack of response, but I see from this forum that on June 05th 2016 he replied to Tom after you had recommended that he should send John an e-mail.
Unless someone is acting on his behalf, it would appear that John is still active and so we would very much like to resume our discussions with him. If there is anything you can do to convince him to communicate again we would really appreciate it.
Thank you, 
Ian

 

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Posted by gmpullman on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 1:50 AM

That looks like she'll be a good, solid runner for you, Tom! I hope you get lots of enjoyment out of running up and down the yard ladders with 'er.

I remember my first foray into brass. Maybe 20 years ago at the Berea, OH train show I bought an LMB New York Central Niagara. 

It wasn't until I got home and had a good look over my new "prize" that I discovered it had a Union Pacific tender Embarrassed  Dunce

Taking that first step is an eye-opening experience and you learn as you go about what's out there—quality wise—and the difference of a good deal and a great deal.

Enjoy your new adopted friend...

Regards, Ed

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Posted by hon30critter on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 12:14 AM

Hey John:

PRR8259
Well, I have a modest layout, and have no need at all for $800 worth of decoders.

My wife doesn't think that I need $800.00 worth of decoders either!Smile, Wink & GrinLaughLaughLaugh

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by PRR8259 on Monday, June 13, 2016 11:32 PM

Sure looks like a beauty of an engine!

Well, I have a modest layout, and have no need at all for $800 worth of decoders.

I'm actually hoping to go buy another brass steam engine tomorrow, depending upon what the dealer has that I "need".

John

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Posted by tstage on Monday, June 13, 2016 11:18 PM

Wayne,

Thanks for the link. Big Smile

Tom

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Posted by sfcouple on Monday, June 13, 2016 10:28 PM

Tom,

I just acquired my first Brass locomotive a few months ago that needed to be remotored along with adding a new gear box.  The following website proved to be very valuable for me:

http://schutzer.net/Brass_Clinics/RebuildingBrass2011.pdf

Best wishes on your beautiful locomotive,

Wayne 

Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.

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Posted by tstage on Monday, June 13, 2016 9:41 PM

I do hope it ends up running well enough to be a part of my NYC switching roster, Dave.  But, even if it's turns out to be somewhat disappointing, I think I'll have fun trying to make it run as well as it can.

I expect the painting and detailing to also be an enjoyable learning experience.  Worst-case scenario: A beautifully painted, static display piece that has been well-researched. Big Smile

Tom

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Posted by hon30critter on Monday, June 13, 2016 8:54 PM

Nice find Tom!

I hope it runs as good as it looks.

Brass is quite a ways down my priority list. Right now I need about $800.00 worth of Loksound decoders alone to get my modest fleet all properly equipped. OH, and there is that little thing called a layout which I have yet to start!

Still, brass steamers sure are nice to look at.

Dave

 

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Posted by tstage on Monday, June 13, 2016 6:51 PM

Here's the promised pics of my recent acquisition:

There's a small amount of tarnish on top of one of the steam cylinders and a disconnected pipe on a side reservoir tank.

Haven't had a chance to run her yet but hope to sometime next week.

Tom

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Posted by tstage on Saturday, June 11, 2016 5:38 PM

Yea, I agree, John.  While not necessarily inexpensive, they are exceptionally nice boxes.

I also like the fact that the lids don't fit all the way flush with the bottom side of the box.  It makes it easier to remove the lid. Yes

Tom

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Posted by PRR8259 on Saturday, June 11, 2016 11:20 AM

I knew the one founder of Rebox personally...great guy, J.P. Barger...a collector who may still be with us.  His boxes are fantastic and virtually exact copies of the original brass boxes, but with much better foam than some of them had.  Very worthwhile purchase!

John

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Posted by tstage on Friday, June 10, 2016 5:03 PM

Just wanted to update you all.  I received my brass 0-6-0 switcher this past Wednesday.  Since it didn't come with its original box, I purchased a replacement Reboxx box for it from the seller.  The seller did a GREAT job packing the contents inside the Reboxx containr (which included wrapping it in polyethylene), as well as the outside box it was mailed in.

Also, I only had the switcher out of the box for a quick inspection before wrapping it back up but it looks great.  I'm out of town at the moment but I'll post pictures of it after I return home.

Tom

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Posted by gmpullman on Tuesday, June 7, 2016 2:42 PM

tstage
A recent photo (within the past year or two) showed the after-math from a moron who lost control of his vehicle and smashed into it.

The NYC B-11K, 6721, that is (was) on display at the New York Central's Utica Passenger station was actually involved in a recent "derailment". The guilty vehicle was a center-flow hopper ELTX 2131.

https://nycshs.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/img_2453.jpg

 

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2015/07/runaway_railroad_car_smashes_into_union_station_in_utica.html

Of course the media had this story all messed up but it was newsworthy just the same.

Regards, Ed

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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, June 6, 2016 4:15 PM

In 1944 the Central had 376 0-6-0 switchers, of these 121 were B-11s and the variations between the classes could be very minor, indeed. Sometimes just an inch or two difference in the stroke or bore of the cylinder justified a new sub-class.

The B-10s just ran out of sub-classes when they got to the B10z so they started the B-11a... and so forth.

If the model repersents a B-11L, Alco sure picked a rare example. The B&A only had one, the #144 and NYC proper had three, # 6745 - 6747.

Headlights were found in various locations but the mounting plate above the smokebox seems to have been the most common by far.

Thankfully, the Central was a popular road with the photographers and there is a pretty generous supply of photos.

Glad you're having FUN Big Smile

Ed

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Posted by tstage on Monday, June 6, 2016 3:37 PM

Thanks, Ed!  And thanks ahead of time for any effort at locating the information on the B-11s from the Central Headlight issues.

It's interesting that the headlight on the B-11s were mounted on either the top or front of the boiler plate smoke box door.  As I look down through the pictures on the Fallen Flag website, there doesn't seem to be a clear distinction which B-11s were giving which headlight.  Although I don't have proof of this, it seems that the boiler plate smoke box door mounted headlight was the more common of the two.

Tom

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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, June 6, 2016 2:08 PM

PRR8259
Unfortunately, I do not know enough about NYC to know if such a brass guide exists for them. 

The Central Headlight, the publication of the New York Central System Historical Society, often includes a column called For The Modeler by Jim Benedict that would often review NYC related brass offerings among other modeling related stories.

When time permits I'll dig through the several stacks that I have on hand and see if I can come across anything related to Alco Models or any of the B class 0-6-0s.

I'm trying to assemble an index of sorts as I don't believe any exist for the Headlight Magazine but this is a daunting task that is not a top priority at the moment.

Congratulations on your purchase, Tom, and I hope you have many enjoyable years ahead with your adopted switcher!

Regards, Ed

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Posted by PRR8259 on Monday, June 6, 2016 11:34 AM

For the benefit of all the readers:

For some railroads, like particularly Santa Fe, there is a brass guide available that summarizes every HO brass steam engine ever produced, what road numbers were modeled "correctly" and which road numbers were "close" along with the ones that are not, and what has to be changed to make them "correct".  It has gone through at least 2 editions, with the most recent edition now including color photos of just about every single Santa Fe steam brass model ever produced (up to and including a few years ago, now).

These guides can turn up on Ebay and/or available from Amazon sellers.

Unfortunately, I do not know enough about NYC to know if such a brass guide exists for them.  However, online photo documentation of NYC steam appears to be somewhat better than online Santa Fe steam photos.

Additionally, there are fine passenger car reference sources out there that can help one identify which brass passenger cars are correct for which roads, plus the Coach Yard website includes a listing of all past Coach Yard models, roads, and applicable date ranges they were in service.

John

 

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Posted by tstage on Monday, June 6, 2016 10:49 AM

ACY

Two prototype examples exist.

Tom

Poking around the Internet last night I found one of them in Troy, NY(?); it was a static display in front of a building.  A recent photo (within the past year or two) showed the after-math from a moron who lost control of his vehicle and smashed into it. Super Angry  The tender looked like it took the worst of it.

Tom

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Posted by ACY Tom on Monday, June 6, 2016 8:51 AM

I'd forgotten about the NYC/NKP 0-6-0 that Alco produced. 

You'll probably be very happy with it. Those classes were never produced by anybody else, so there is no other version available from any other producer.

Two prototype examples exist.

Tom

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Posted by tstage on Monday, June 6, 2016 12:10 AM

PRR8259

What you may find out is that even within one class of steam power there often were considerable variations.  Hopefully, you will find which one it is a model of.

John

I did a little research last night in a couple of my NYC steam books and discovered that NYC B-Class 0-6-0s came in a whole-slew of variations.  This one is a B-11 and the B-11s can break down into quite a few sub sub-classes; suffice it to say enough to begin running out of letters of the alphabet.

Supposedly this one is a B-11L and, according to my NYC references, these were used by the B&A (Boston & Albany).  While I have not found a specific picture labeled as a B-11L, I have found a few pictures on the Fallen Flags website of NYC 0-6-0s that resemble it closely.  I will use one of them to choose my prototype number from.  Fun stuff!

I forgot to mention that this engine doesn't come with the original box but John said that he would provide "a suitable box for protection during shipping".  I'll see if I can hunt down an empty Alco Models B-11 box on eBay sometime.  I guess my other option is to use one of the Reboxx boxes.

Tom

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Posted by PRR8259 on Sunday, June 5, 2016 11:17 PM

Congratulations!  Seems like a reasonable first purchase, and I hope you are very happy with it!  From the photos, it appears to be in truly first class condition.

Let us know how you make out with it, please.

What you may find out is that even within one class of steam power there often were considerable variations.  Hopefully, you will find which one it is a model of.

John

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Posted by tstage on Sunday, June 5, 2016 6:13 PM

Well, I mulled it over...and I'm now a proud owner of my first brass locomotive:

I'll post some pictures of it after it arrives and after I have a chance to test it on DC to see how it really performs.

Eventually I'd like to covert it to DCC.  Since I'm in between layouts at the moment, it will give me plenty of time to tinker with it and to see whether I want to go with sound or motor-only control.  I'd also like to add working front and rear headlights.

I compared it to prototype pictures of NYC B-11s on the Fallen Flag website and it appears to be fairly accurate.  I'll also have to figure out which road number I want to detail it with after I paint it.  So many things to ponder...Stick out tongue

Tom

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Posted by tstage on Sunday, June 5, 2016 5:18 PM

John got back to me on the 0-6-0 switcher.  It is indeed DC and the can motor is quiet and runs smoothly.

John also mentioned that it could use a little lubing.  He stated that he doesn't lube models prior to shipping because the grease could migrate onto the finish - especially in the summer, which makes sense.

Well, I'm giving it some real consideration.  It's a cute l'il bugger and a NYC B-11 0-6-0 would be a nice contrast and compliment to my NYC U-3 USRA 0-8-0.

Thanks again for the input fellas. Big Smile

Tom

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Posted by emdmike on Sunday, June 5, 2016 12:42 PM

Alco models did have a few hit and misses (mostly the early diesel drives) but thier steam usualy ran well.  PFM/United were one of the more bullet proof imports back in the day.  I have a B&O 2-8-0 that will be going on consignment at the LHS as they have a narrow gauge engine I want.  I find brass steam much easier to work on(3 screws and the boiler lifts off the chassis on most models).  Alco's diesel models can be made to run well, but the cost exceeds the value, but I just like brass trains in general and enjoy the challenge to make a balky model run well.  My little 2-8-0 has PFM sound, constant brightness light, and is professionaly painted and weathered.  Enjoy that first model, and be warned, you can never own just one!   Brass gets in your blood!    Mike

 

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Posted by PRR8259 on Sunday, June 5, 2016 9:37 AM

There are basically 2 kinds of brass: the shelf queens which in some cases are relatively rare, high value models that don't get run so much as collected by people who just appreciate the looks of them, and the runners which see lots of layout time.

A few models are actually good as both:  the W&R steamers have exceptional quality built into them, are reputed to have stainless steel valve gear and tires on at least some of them, and can be run without even leaving marks on the drivers (I can personally testify to that; after many hours of running, one that I have has drivers that appear to be brand new).  W&R was not at all the only importer who brought in quality product; the others mostly did too at varying times and with varying degrees of consistency.  One just needs to learn which models made when, which is where getting to know the dealers becomes useful.

John

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Posted by tstage on Sunday, June 5, 2016 1:01 AM

PRR8259

John Gurdak (the dealer who photographed the above loco) is a first rate dealer and imo as honest as anyone in the industry.  He has done great on my behalf, actually obtained rare parts to fix a brass 4-6-6-4 that I was told by one importer they "did not have", etc. 

If you email him questions, he will get back to you.

Thanks, John.  I sent him a couple of emails earlier today already.

Tom

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Posted by PRR8259 on Sunday, June 5, 2016 12:40 AM

John Gurdak (the dealer who photographed the above loco) is a first rate dealer and imo as honest as anyone in the industry.  He has done great on my behalf, actually obtained rare parts to fix a brass 4-6-6-4 that I was told by one importer they "did not have", etc. 

If you email him questions, he will get back to you.

It's difficult for me to adequately describe in words how owning and operating, in virtually daily use, HO brass steam power is simply a thrill for me.  The level of detailing on the brass (and some brass hybrid) power is just...a level above...what you typically are going to receive with rtr plastic.  With the plastic and partial diecast/plastic you have to be very very careful of how you handle it as on any of them I've ever tried, it is easy for stuff to be damaged or fall off.  Given the dollar value of some brass, I still handle it carefully, but if you lay a brass engine on its side, you generally don't have to worry about the window awnings or other stuff breaking off, etc. as can and does happen with plastic.

Although I have a few beautiful freight cars from Tangent and others, I find myself mostly just staring at the brass steamers when they run, in utter fascination.

I personally prefer some of the more expensive stuff like W&R imported steam, but there are certain models out there that have a reputation for being nearly "bulletproof" though not always the "quietest".  I have owned the Westside SP 4-10-2 with the open frame motor, and it was one of the all time nicest running steamers I ever saw, because it had a good gearbox from the factory.  At least the later PFM/United NKP Berkshires tend to have pretty good gearboxes and are very easily converted over to a can motor. 

There are lots of nice Westside and PFM models out there that can be great buys, and Howard himself does use Alco Models steam power, too, on his layout.

Where we are right now is a lot of the former owners of brass steam are at a point in their lives where the models are being sold off, so there is an apparent glut of some models out there to be had.  I wish you luck with whatever you decide to purchase.

I greatly recommend taking the time to personally get to know the brass dealers.  They have a wealth of information to share and can help you find good value models to actually operate!  Howard Zane is one of the nicest hosts if you can get to his house in Maryland (amazing over 3000 square feet ho layout currently running virtually all brass motive power, with amazing DCC/lights/sound after market installations).

John

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