First let me say I am not a rivet counter. I don't fret if something is slightly oversized or undersized for its scale. I'm a big believer in the good enough approach to modeling which includes the close enough approach. But when something is so out of scale that it jumps out a you that hardly qualifies as good enough.
I am currently assembly the Laser Art Gas Station which is made by Branchline Trains. For the most part I have been very happy with this line. They are easy to assemble and the walls and roofs fit tightly together with a tab and slot system. However there is a serious flaw with the size of the gas pumps and the island they will stand on. They are way too big. These seem to be cast resin parts. Two sets of pumps were included, one for a 1930s era and the other for the 1950s which is what I model. The 1950 pumps are about 1.5 times larger than the J&L Pumps which I installed on another gas station I built. My first thought is they must have accidently included the pumps from an O scale version of the kit but the pillars on the island fit the slots for the canopy so it would appear these are the correct parts. I rarely do this with anything but I measured these pumps and discovered they are approximately 78 scale inches tall, 32 inches wide, and 22 inches deep. Even modern day pumps aren't that big and 1950s era pumps weren't even close to that. On top of that, the base of the island stands about 16 scale inches high. That means the top of the pump when sitting on the island is going to be almost 8 scale feet above the surrounding pavement. When did you see something like that.
Getting the scale of the parts of a kit is something that only has to be done correctly once so there is no excuse for something being this much out of scale. I can live with something that isn't exact but it should at least be in the ballpark. These aren't even close.
Be happy for JL Innovative and their great selection of gas station details.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Yeah, those are BIG alright!
I used the Tichy visible gas pumps and the Bar Mills Shady Grove gas station, older than the era you're modeling however, I have seen visible gas pumps still being used in the 1970s in West Virginia.
The nice little Tichy pumps can have the globes lit with a little grain of flea lamp.
https://www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop/tabid/91/c/ho_details/p/8223/Default.aspx
I can understand your dismay especially when you assume you are buying a "scale" craftsman kit, not Plasticville!
Regards, Ed
32" x 22" actually isn't that far off. It's the 78" tall + the 16" island that is considerably taller than what I remember of the oldest pumps around in the 60s. Is it possible to cut them down credibly?
Lower the island by half? That's a possibility, but consider that an island typically was embedded in the paved area in front of the station. If 8" was below grade, that would leave just 8" of curbing, island, whatever visible.
I agree the casting of the pumps needs correction, but sometimes you need to make lemonade when you get lemons?
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Why not give Branchline a call or email and ask them WTF? They seem to work well with folks so give them a chance to help.
Roger Huber
mlehman 32" x 22" actually isn't that far off. It's the 78" tall + the 16" island that is considerably taller than what I remember of the oldest pumps around in the 60s. Is it possible to cut them down credibly? Lower the island by half? That's a possibility, but consider that an island typically was embedded in the paved area in front of the station. If 8" was below grade, that would leave just 8" of curbing, island, whatever visible. I agree the casting of the pumps needs correction, but sometimes you need to make lemonade when you get lemons?
There's no way to save the pumps. They are already in the circular file. I'll probably get a set of J&L pumps although I might look into the Tichy pumps with the globe that Ed suggested. Hopefully I can find a set of Esso pumps which is what the sign for this kit comes with. As for the island, I think the only way to cut it to size would be with the belt or disc sander but even that isn't going to be easy to do and keep the thickness even. I think I'll just raise the surrounding pavement using laminated layers of styrene. I have it in .020", 040", and 060" thicknesses. I'll use a hobby knife to trace a hole for the island in a .020" sheet and then laminate that with .060 underneath leaving space under the hole I cut so the island can be dropped all the way to the plywood. That will give me .080" pavement around the 3/16 of an inch island which should get me into the close enough range. Originally this was going to be a front edge structure which to me allows for much less fudging but I had already changed the plan to move this more toward the middle where it won't be quite as conspicious.
oldline1 Why not give Branchline a call or email and ask them WTF? They seem to work well with folks so give them a chance to help. Roger Huber
Do you think they are going to retool just to keep me happy? And even if they would, how long do you think that would take? If this was a defective part, I'm sure they would replace it but it's not. It was just badly designed.
jecorbettDo you think they are going to retool just to keep me happy?
Maybe not for one person, but since you called attention to it and now it is in the media and has attracted public interest. Small cottage industry companies try to take care of their customers more than mass market companies.
j.........
jecorbett,
Please don't get snarky. I was trying to help. Be a little more courteous when people try to help you with an issue. Isn't that sort of why you posted your issue in the first place? Chill!
I was suggesting you contact them about it in case they made a mistake and included the wrong parts from possibly an O scale kit or something. Also, there is always the possibility they could help in some other way like a refund, replacement with a different part, etc. They are good folks to deal with and try to work with their customers.
I never assumed they would redesign anything just for you. I doubt if you are THAT important.
oldline1 jecorbett, Please don't get snarky. I was trying to help. Be a little more courteous when people try to help you with an issue. Isn't that sort of why you posted your issue in the first place? Chill! I was suggesting you contact them about it in case they made a mistake and included the wrong parts from possibly an O scale kit or something. Also, there is always the possibility they could help in some other way like a refund, replacement with a different part, etc. They are good folks to deal with and try to work with their customers. I never assumed they would redesign anything just for you. I doubt if you are THAT important. Roger Huber
I'm sorry you took that as a snarky reply. I simply asked a rhetorical question.
OK. No harm done! Peace! I hope Branchline can help you out somehow.
Toger Huber
Accually the hight is spot on for a Martin brand but the other dimentions are a bit off being 78x26x17 but I could see another pump brand being slightly wider and deeper. As far as island hight, seen them that high, don't know the reason but have seen it and the reason may have been to protect the pumps. Late thing of intrest was the old visable gravity pump, those things could be tall and I used one often on the farm.
The pumps in Ed's photo actually seem to be a bit too modern for most service stations in the 1950's. My memory may be faulty, but as I recall, these came into use around the mid 1950's and gradually replaced the ones with the round or oval globes. The ones with the globes were the dominant type until some time in the early 1960's.
While I have never checked them for dimensional accuracy, it seems to me that JL Innovations no. 514 may be a lot closer to the most commonly seen design in the 1950's.
Tom
ACY The pumps in Ed's photo actually seem to be a bit too modern for most service stations in the 1950's. My memory may be faulty, but as I recall, these came into use around the mid 1950's and gradually replaced the ones with the round or oval globes. The ones with the globes were the dominant type until some time in the early 1960's. While I have never checked them for dimensional accuracy, it seems to me that JL Innovations no. 514 may be a lot closer to the most commonly seen design in the 1950's. Tom
I agree it doesn't hurt to call or write and express a concern like this. Most of our hobby mfg's want you to be happy. They're not perfect and they know they deal with customers that tend to be a little more OCD than most -- not that I'd say this is an issue here.
It may be the case they buy the parts, rather than make them. Somebody packing parts could include a batch that weren't quiite right if a mistake slipped through in buying for a batch of kits. And sometimes there really IS a prototype like what is supplied, you just need a pointer to it. All those and more are possibilities here.
To be honest, the pumps looked OK so I showed the pics from the Branchline website to my 'expert' - my wife, who was a supervisor for Phillips 66 at one time. She said they didn't look unusual, and she confirmed my memory that pumps 50-60 years ago were bigger than the ones now.
She also noted that at back then islands were much higher than now. She remembered stepping off one awkwardly and almost breaking her ankle. We had several gas stations within a block or two of my house as a kid (1960's) and seems to me 16" or so would be about how high they really were.
Interestingly, the first thing she noticed was that the garage door on the left was placed where it would be almost impossible to get a car in and out, since it was blocked by the pump island.
This site has dimensions of some gas pumps http://www.gameroomantiques.com/GasPump.htm
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
wjstix To be honest, the pumps looked OK so I showed the pics from the Branchline website to my 'expert' - my wife, who was a supervisor for Phillips 66 at one time. She said they didn't look unusual, and she confirmed my memory that pumps 50-60 years ago were bigger than the ones now. She also noted that at back then islands were much higher than now. She remembered stepping off one awkwardly and almost breaking her ankle. We had several gas stations within a block or two of my house as a kid (1960's) and seems to me 16" or so would be about how high they really were. Interestingly, the first thing she noticed was that the garage door on the left was placed where it would be almost impossible to get a car in and out, since it was blocked by the pump island.
Your memory differs quite a bit from mine. I can't think of a single instance seeing a pump or an island that high above the surrounding pavement. It's been said there is a prototype for everything so I'm not going to say there were no islands 16 inches above the pavement but I have to believe that would be the rare exception. One reason I say that is because in those days service station attendants pumped your gas and they might have customers on both sides of the island that they would be servicing at the same time. They would want to be able to step quickly from one side of the island to the other. A 16 inch high island would make that problematic. They would either have to climb up over the island or go around it which I would think would be a real nuisance if you had to do that dozens of times a day. To have both a 16 inch high island AND a 6 and a half foot high pump would really be stretching things. The top of the pump would be 94 inches or almost 8 feet above the pavement. The meter registering the gallons pumped and the total sale would be 6.5-7 feet above ground level. That makes no sense. You would want that no higher than eye level or slightly lower for the attendant and also have it readable to the car's driver who typically would remain in the car while the gas was pumped. I think it is a real stretch to say the island/pumps in this kit are at all prototypical.
UPDATE:
I found this one picture with a very high island but in this example, there is a seperate island under each of the three pumps with space in between for an attendant to move easily from on side of the pumps to the other to work cars on either side.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/157/335749995_ff9d3a0887_z.jpg
I just Googled "gas stations in the 50's" and I don't think they look that out of place. I did notice that some didn't have islands, although most do, and I know it's required to have an island now. I've even poured a few in my day, islands that I've had to form up with lumber, and the islands that used the steel stay-in-place forms, and have never done any over 8"
Mike.
My You Tube
mlehman I agree it doesn't hurt to call or write and express a concern like this. Most of our hobby mfg's want you to be happy. They're not perfect and they know they deal with customers that tend to be a little more OCD than most -- not that I'd say this is an issue here. It may be the case they buy the parts, rather than make them. Somebody packing parts could include a batch that weren't quiite right if a mistake slipped through in buying for a batch of kits. And sometimes there really IS a prototype like what is supplied, you just need a pointer to it. All those and more are possibilities here.
The fact that the picture which has been posted as well as the one on the front of the box show these large pumps indicate to me it isn't a packaging error. Their own prototype shows the oversized pumps. That tells me it was intended to be that way.
As for me, I see little point in contacting them because I don't see how they are going to do anything about it in time to help me. Even if they realized their error and decided to fix it, that isn't going to happen quickly and I'm not going to wait for that to happen to complete this kit. I'm just going to have to make the best of it. I was thinking of getting some suitable J&L pumps which my LHS stocks but I remembered there were some extra pumps included with the Walthers Gas Station kit I built a few years ago and I think they might be a suitable replacement. I don't think they are quite as nice as the J&L pumps but since this isn't a structure that will sit near the isle, I think they will be good enough.
I bought both the old and the very old versions of gas pumps from JL Innovative.
Since I have a dual-era layout, my automobile fleet has two components, and I added the gas pumps to the swappable sets. I made the gas platforms out of styrene, but they're not attached to the layout so they can be replaced at any time.
mbinsewi I just Googled "gas stations in the 50's" and I don't think they look that out of place. I did notice that some didn't have islands, although most do, and I know it's required to have an island now. I've even poured a few in my day, islands that I've had to form up with lumber, and the islands that used the steel stay-in-place forms, and have never done any over 8" Mike.
I hope it doesn't seem like I'm kicking a dead horse but I took your suggestion to google 1950s gas stations and it confirmed what I said from the beginning. In this first picture the top of the pump is roughly even with the top of the car.
http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/173303.jpg
In this next one, even though the attendant is standing on the pavement he is still taller than the pump sitting on the island. My eyeball estimate puts the height of that pump at about five to five and a half feet.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2632/3744548028_a754f1d7c6.jpg
Here's one more that clearly shows the scale of a pump from that era. The pump appears to be about 5 feet tall, tops.
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4129/5202030077_c261e355df_z.jpg
I did enjoy looking at pictures of these old gas stations so I thank you for that.
I looked again, and scrolled all the way down. Lots of interesting pictures. It also looks like different brands had pumps that were a little bit different from each other.
Good luck with your pumps. I have a gas station on my layout, but it's way in the back, and I model modern.
Besides the worm advertisement, there is a sign hung above the pumps that says "Kids with gas eat free". Both of these were actual signs, at gas stations, that I found on Google. I scratch built the pumps. Mike.
Besides the worm advertisement, there is a sign hung above the pumps that says "Kids with gas eat free". Both of these were actual signs, at gas stations, that I found on Google.
I scratch built the pumps.
The pumps in the kit appear to be generally based on
the Martin-Schwartz Model 80
Prototype 78" high, 26" wide, 17" deep
or the Wayne Model 70
Prototype dimensions 90" high, 23" wide, 17" deep
Most other pumps about 59" high.
Whale, LION looked at the old gas pump behind our garage. It is 6' tall, standing on the ground, the glass globe would add more, but it is missing.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
DSchmitt The pumps in the kit appear to be generally based on the Martin-Schwartz Model 80 Prototype 78" high, 26" wide, 17" deep or the Wayne Model 70 Prototype dimensions 90" high, 23" wide, 17" deep Most other pumps about 59" high.
Having googled 1950s gas station photos, just about every pump I saw that appeared to be that tall had a globe on top of it. My question would be if either if the two pumps you mentioned included the height of the globe. The pumps in the kit have no globe so I would think 5 scale feet would be about right for them.
jecorbett DSchmitt The pumps in the kit appear to be generally based on the Martin-Schwartz Model 80 Prototype 78" high, 26" wide, 17" deep or the Wayne Model 70 Prototype dimensions 90" high, 23" wide, 17" deep Most other pumps about 59" high. Having googled 1950s gas station photos, just about every pump I saw that appeared to be that tall had a globe on top of it. My question would be if either if the two pumps you mentioned included the height of the globe. The pumps in the kit have no globe so I would think 5 scale feet would be about right for them.
They do not have globes. Check the link in my earlier post for photos.
mbinsewi ....Good luck with your pumps. I have a gas station on my layout, but it's way in the back, and I model modern.
....Good luck with your pumps. I have a gas station on my layout, but it's way in the back, and I model modern.
That's a good-looking scene, Mike. I'm pretty sure I've been there....south east Ohio, I think.
Wayne
Thanks Wayne! Actually, the forground is a kit bashed array of buildings, blending into a back drop I cut up and repositioned, from BackDrop Wharehouse.
I'm not sure what city BDW's photographers did for the series of scenes.
Tall pumps, tall island, I'm remember the giant gas pumps.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
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