BMMECNYC There are 2 good photos of a gravity pump and one with electric pumps in Life Along the Line by O Winston Link/Thomas Reevy. The photos were shot in August 1956 in Vesuvuis, VA. There are on pages 160 and 161. The electric pumps are about 6ft tall (assumption based on the man standing next to the pump is slightly shorter than the pump). The third photo you posted as a reply to Mike gives a clue about how to compensate for the tall curb. Not really sure why they went with 16". Just out of curiosity, where is your layout based?
There are 2 good photos of a gravity pump and one with electric pumps in Life Along the Line by O Winston Link/Thomas Reevy. The photos were shot in August 1956 in Vesuvuis, VA. There are on pages 160 and 161. The electric pumps are about 6ft tall (assumption based on the man standing next to the pump is slightly shorter than the pump).
The third photo you posted as a reply to Mike gives a clue about how to compensate for the tall curb. Not really sure why they went with 16".
Just out of curiosity, where is your layout based?
I'm guessing your suggestion was to eliminate the island and mount the pumps directly to the pavement as shown in the photo you referenced. It was a little more involved than that. The island was a one piece casting that included the supporting pillars for the canopy. Cutting off the island would have made those pillars too short. The solution was to build up the surrounding pavement using laminated layers of styrene which effectively reduced the height of the island by about half. I then substituted extra pumps that came with the Walthers Cornerstone Gas Station I'd built a number of years ago. I'm a pack rat and don't throw out extra parts that come with kits and occasionally that pays off as it did in this case. I completed the gas station this evening and glued it in place on the layout. I'm really happy with the way it turned out.
My layout is a fictional line whose main trunk is from the New York City area to Buffalo with major branches to Utica, Syracuse and Rochester. There is a short line that connects with the main trunk and this gas station is located in the town where the short line terminates. The name of the town is Willoughby and it sits between the Catskills and Binghamton, NY.
If I ever get the problems worked out with my digital camera, I hope to post some pictures of it in WPF.
DSchmitt Found a graph of historic gas price. http://energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-915-march-7-2016-average-historical-annual-gasoline-pump-price-1929-2015 Looks like prices at about 20 cents/gal until 1947 then rising about 25 cents by 1950 and gradually increasing to about 35 cents by 1972. 1960 is about 30 cents/gal. While the prices look low to us 20 cents in 1935 is equilivent to about 2.65 in 2015 dollars, 25 cents in 1947 equilivent to $2.00, 35 cents in 1972 equilvent to $1.60. Of cource they are lower than the 2013 high of over $3.00/gallon. In 2015 the price is about $2.50/gal. The prices are national averages for regular gasoline and include taxes. Prices id different locations in the country could be lower or higher.
Found a graph of historic gas price. http://energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-915-march-7-2016-average-historical-annual-gasoline-pump-price-1929-2015
Looks like prices at about 20 cents/gal until 1947 then rising about 25 cents by 1950 and gradually increasing to about 35 cents by 1972. 1960 is about 30 cents/gal.
While the prices look low to us 20 cents in 1935 is equilivent to about 2.65 in 2015 dollars, 25 cents in 1947 equilivent to $2.00, 35 cents in 1972 equilvent to $1.60. Of cource they are lower than the 2013 high of over $3.00/gallon. In 2015 the price is about $2.50/gal.
The prices are national averages for regular gasoline and include taxes. Prices id different locations in the country could be lower or higher.
Good find. It appears from this that my sign is in line with what gas cost in 1956. There are bookets title Remember When which are mini-yearbooks for every year going way back. They were being sold in a rack at the cash register of Bob Evans restaurants although I'll bet they are sold elsewhere as well. I got one for the year I was born (1951) and the year I model (1956). Lots of neat tidbits of information. Who the top government officials were, the Academy Award winners, various sports champions, and the prices of various staples including gasoline. I have to dig up my 1956 book but my memory is they listed gasoline a few cents cheaper than the chart you provided. My guess is your chart is probably better researched. Of course gasoline prices would fluctuate back then as they do now but probably not more than a few cents up or down. I built the City Classic Supermarket and it came with window signs advertising prices of food items. I used my 1956 booklet and PC to change the prices on those signs to be more in line with 1956.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
wjstix It sounds like it's not so much the pumps with the kit are "wrong" as that they are based on a particular prototype pump that some gas stations used and some didn't. Might be say Sinclair bought this brand, and Phillips 66 bought a different brand, etc. so whether these pumps look 'right' might depend on which gas stations were in your area. Could be regional too, like the way Griswold flashing grade crossing signs were common here in Minnesota (they were made in Minneapolis) but would be almost unknown outside the midwest.
It sounds like it's not so much the pumps with the kit are "wrong" as that they are based on a particular prototype pump that some gas stations used and some didn't. Might be say Sinclair bought this brand, and Phillips 66 bought a different brand, etc. so whether these pumps look 'right' might depend on which gas stations were in your area. Could be regional too, like the way Griswold flashing grade crossing signs were common here in Minnesota (they were made in Minneapolis) but would be almost unknown outside the midwest.
It's been said that there is a prototype for everything and after starting this thread I am finding out that is apparently true about these gas pumps. While I've now seen photos of prototype pumps almost as big as these as well as the high island, it certainly seems those were the exceptions rather than the rule. After looking at dozens of old black and white photos from the 1950s and earlier, it would appear that the most common pumps were about 5 feet tall and islands typically about 6 inches or less. I don't recall seeing one which appeared to be as tall as these, 16 scale inches. In combination, the island and the pumps are almost 8 scale feet above the pavement and whether or not there was actually a prototype, they just look ridiculous. The kit also included older 1930s era pumps which were a bit smaller but oddly shaped and certainly not typical for my time period of 1956.
I solved the problem in two ways, I built up the surrounding pavement with laminated layers of styrene totalling .060" thick. I used the island to trace a hole in the top layer which was only .020" thick and easily cut with a hobby knife. I left space underneath the hole so the island would drop down all the way to the plywood. I didn't bother to measure the scale height of the island above the pavement but it looks right to my eye. I was thinking about buying some J&L pumps which are really nice but then I remembered having left over pumps from the Walthers Cornerstone Gas Station and used those. They are slightly bigger than the J&L but still look right. Instead of a two pump island, the pumps were small enough to put three on the island, 2 regular and 1 premium. Since the kit only came with a sign for an Esso station, I painted the pumps in Esso colors. Deep red for regular and white with blue trim for the premium pump. I had found a couple of color photos of old Esso pumps to indicate this was appropriate. My LHS had J&L Esso pumps in stock which had this same color combination. I didn't need to buy them but it was nice to get a second source for the correct color. The only downside was the price sign was at 34.9 for premium and 28.9 for regular. I believe those prices would have been more appropriate for the 1960s but sometime you can just have too much information. It looks good as long as I don't overthink it.
How about making your own pumps? I can understand the fear factor in stratchbuilding--often costs more than a kit and there's quite a bit of research, it won't often look professional, etc. Once you overcome these issues, the satisfaction of trying something new is awesome.
Tall pumps, tall island, I'm remember the giant gas pumps.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Thanks Wayne! Actually, the forground is a kit bashed array of buildings, blending into a back drop I cut up and repositioned, from BackDrop Wharehouse.
I'm not sure what city BDW's photographers did for the series of scenes.
Mike.
My You Tube
mbinsewi ....Good luck with your pumps. I have a gas station on my layout, but it's way in the back, and I model modern.
....Good luck with your pumps. I have a gas station on my layout, but it's way in the back, and I model modern.
That's a good-looking scene, Mike. I'm pretty sure I've been there....south east Ohio, I think.
Wayne
jecorbett DSchmitt The pumps in the kit appear to be generally based on the Martin-Schwartz Model 80 Prototype 78" high, 26" wide, 17" deep or the Wayne Model 70 Prototype dimensions 90" high, 23" wide, 17" deep Most other pumps about 59" high. Having googled 1950s gas station photos, just about every pump I saw that appeared to be that tall had a globe on top of it. My question would be if either if the two pumps you mentioned included the height of the globe. The pumps in the kit have no globe so I would think 5 scale feet would be about right for them.
DSchmitt The pumps in the kit appear to be generally based on the Martin-Schwartz Model 80 Prototype 78" high, 26" wide, 17" deep or the Wayne Model 70 Prototype dimensions 90" high, 23" wide, 17" deep Most other pumps about 59" high.
The pumps in the kit appear to be generally based on
the Martin-Schwartz Model 80
Prototype 78" high, 26" wide, 17" deep
or the Wayne Model 70
Prototype dimensions 90" high, 23" wide, 17" deep
Most other pumps about 59" high.
Having googled 1950s gas station photos, just about every pump I saw that appeared to be that tall had a globe on top of it. My question would be if either if the two pumps you mentioned included the height of the globe. The pumps in the kit have no globe so I would think 5 scale feet would be about right for them.
They do not have globes. Check the link in my earlier post for photos.
Whale, LION looked at the old gas pump behind our garage. It is 6' tall, standing on the ground, the glass globe would add more, but it is missing.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I looked again, and scrolled all the way down. Lots of interesting pictures. It also looks like different brands had pumps that were a little bit different from each other.
Good luck with your pumps. I have a gas station on my layout, but it's way in the back, and I model modern.
Besides the worm advertisement, there is a sign hung above the pumps that says "Kids with gas eat free". Both of these were actual signs, at gas stations, that I found on Google. I scratch built the pumps. Mike.
Besides the worm advertisement, there is a sign hung above the pumps that says "Kids with gas eat free". Both of these were actual signs, at gas stations, that I found on Google.
I scratch built the pumps.
mbinsewi I just Googled "gas stations in the 50's" and I don't think they look that out of place. I did notice that some didn't have islands, although most do, and I know it's required to have an island now. I've even poured a few in my day, islands that I've had to form up with lumber, and the islands that used the steel stay-in-place forms, and have never done any over 8" Mike.
I just Googled "gas stations in the 50's" and I don't think they look that out of place. I did notice that some didn't have islands, although most do, and I know it's required to have an island now. I've even poured a few in my day, islands that I've had to form up with lumber, and the islands that used the steel stay-in-place forms, and have never done any over 8"
I hope it doesn't seem like I'm kicking a dead horse but I took your suggestion to google 1950s gas stations and it confirmed what I said from the beginning. In this first picture the top of the pump is roughly even with the top of the car.
http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/173303.jpg
In this next one, even though the attendant is standing on the pavement he is still taller than the pump sitting on the island. My eyeball estimate puts the height of that pump at about five to five and a half feet.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2632/3744548028_a754f1d7c6.jpg
Here's one more that clearly shows the scale of a pump from that era. The pump appears to be about 5 feet tall, tops.
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4129/5202030077_c261e355df_z.jpg
I did enjoy looking at pictures of these old gas stations so I thank you for that.
I bought both the old and the very old versions of gas pumps from JL Innovative.
Since I have a dual-era layout, my automobile fleet has two components, and I added the gas pumps to the swappable sets. I made the gas platforms out of styrene, but they're not attached to the layout so they can be replaced at any time.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
mlehman I agree it doesn't hurt to call or write and express a concern like this. Most of our hobby mfg's want you to be happy. They're not perfect and they know they deal with customers that tend to be a little more OCD than most -- not that I'd say this is an issue here. It may be the case they buy the parts, rather than make them. Somebody packing parts could include a batch that weren't quiite right if a mistake slipped through in buying for a batch of kits. And sometimes there really IS a prototype like what is supplied, you just need a pointer to it. All those and more are possibilities here.
I agree it doesn't hurt to call or write and express a concern like this. Most of our hobby mfg's want you to be happy. They're not perfect and they know they deal with customers that tend to be a little more OCD than most -- not that I'd say this is an issue here.
It may be the case they buy the parts, rather than make them. Somebody packing parts could include a batch that weren't quiite right if a mistake slipped through in buying for a batch of kits. And sometimes there really IS a prototype like what is supplied, you just need a pointer to it. All those and more are possibilities here.
The fact that the picture which has been posted as well as the one on the front of the box show these large pumps indicate to me it isn't a packaging error. Their own prototype shows the oversized pumps. That tells me it was intended to be that way.
As for me, I see little point in contacting them because I don't see how they are going to do anything about it in time to help me. Even if they realized their error and decided to fix it, that isn't going to happen quickly and I'm not going to wait for that to happen to complete this kit. I'm just going to have to make the best of it. I was thinking of getting some suitable J&L pumps which my LHS stocks but I remembered there were some extra pumps included with the Walthers Gas Station kit I built a few years ago and I think they might be a suitable replacement. I don't think they are quite as nice as the J&L pumps but since this isn't a structure that will sit near the isle, I think they will be good enough.
wjstix To be honest, the pumps looked OK so I showed the pics from the Branchline website to my 'expert' - my wife, who was a supervisor for Phillips 66 at one time. She said they didn't look unusual, and she confirmed my memory that pumps 50-60 years ago were bigger than the ones now. She also noted that at back then islands were much higher than now. She remembered stepping off one awkwardly and almost breaking her ankle. We had several gas stations within a block or two of my house as a kid (1960's) and seems to me 16" or so would be about how high they really were. Interestingly, the first thing she noticed was that the garage door on the left was placed where it would be almost impossible to get a car in and out, since it was blocked by the pump island.
To be honest, the pumps looked OK so I showed the pics from the Branchline website to my 'expert' - my wife, who was a supervisor for Phillips 66 at one time. She said they didn't look unusual, and she confirmed my memory that pumps 50-60 years ago were bigger than the ones now.
She also noted that at back then islands were much higher than now. She remembered stepping off one awkwardly and almost breaking her ankle. We had several gas stations within a block or two of my house as a kid (1960's) and seems to me 16" or so would be about how high they really were.
Interestingly, the first thing she noticed was that the garage door on the left was placed where it would be almost impossible to get a car in and out, since it was blocked by the pump island.
Your memory differs quite a bit from mine. I can't think of a single instance seeing a pump or an island that high above the surrounding pavement. It's been said there is a prototype for everything so I'm not going to say there were no islands 16 inches above the pavement but I have to believe that would be the rare exception. One reason I say that is because in those days service station attendants pumped your gas and they might have customers on both sides of the island that they would be servicing at the same time. They would want to be able to step quickly from one side of the island to the other. A 16 inch high island would make that problematic. They would either have to climb up over the island or go around it which I would think would be a real nuisance if you had to do that dozens of times a day. To have both a 16 inch high island AND a 6 and a half foot high pump would really be stretching things. The top of the pump would be 94 inches or almost 8 feet above the pavement. The meter registering the gallons pumped and the total sale would be 6.5-7 feet above ground level. That makes no sense. You would want that no higher than eye level or slightly lower for the attendant and also have it readable to the car's driver who typically would remain in the car while the gas was pumped. I think it is a real stretch to say the island/pumps in this kit are at all prototypical.
UPDATE:
I found this one picture with a very high island but in this example, there is a seperate island under each of the three pumps with space in between for an attendant to move easily from on side of the pumps to the other to work cars on either side.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/157/335749995_ff9d3a0887_z.jpg
This site has dimensions of some gas pumps http://www.gameroomantiques.com/GasPump.htm
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
ACY The pumps in Ed's photo actually seem to be a bit too modern for most service stations in the 1950's. My memory may be faulty, but as I recall, these came into use around the mid 1950's and gradually replaced the ones with the round or oval globes. The ones with the globes were the dominant type until some time in the early 1960's. While I have never checked them for dimensional accuracy, it seems to me that JL Innovations no. 514 may be a lot closer to the most commonly seen design in the 1950's. Tom
The pumps in Ed's photo actually seem to be a bit too modern for most service stations in the 1950's. My memory may be faulty, but as I recall, these came into use around the mid 1950's and gradually replaced the ones with the round or oval globes. The ones with the globes were the dominant type until some time in the early 1960's.
While I have never checked them for dimensional accuracy, it seems to me that JL Innovations no. 514 may be a lot closer to the most commonly seen design in the 1950's.
Tom
Accually the hight is spot on for a Martin brand but the other dimentions are a bit off being 78x26x17 but I could see another pump brand being slightly wider and deeper. As far as island hight, seen them that high, don't know the reason but have seen it and the reason may have been to protect the pumps. Late thing of intrest was the old visable gravity pump, those things could be tall and I used one often on the farm.
OK. No harm done! Peace! I hope Branchline can help you out somehow.
Toger Huber
oldline1 jecorbett, Please don't get snarky. I was trying to help. Be a little more courteous when people try to help you with an issue. Isn't that sort of why you posted your issue in the first place? Chill! I was suggesting you contact them about it in case they made a mistake and included the wrong parts from possibly an O scale kit or something. Also, there is always the possibility they could help in some other way like a refund, replacement with a different part, etc. They are good folks to deal with and try to work with their customers. I never assumed they would redesign anything just for you. I doubt if you are THAT important. Roger Huber
jecorbett,
Please don't get snarky. I was trying to help. Be a little more courteous when people try to help you with an issue. Isn't that sort of why you posted your issue in the first place? Chill!
I was suggesting you contact them about it in case they made a mistake and included the wrong parts from possibly an O scale kit or something. Also, there is always the possibility they could help in some other way like a refund, replacement with a different part, etc. They are good folks to deal with and try to work with their customers.
I never assumed they would redesign anything just for you. I doubt if you are THAT important.
Roger Huber
I'm sorry you took that as a snarky reply. I simply asked a rhetorical question.