I am going to build a large residential structure, consisting of wood clapboard siding, asphalt shingle roof, brick chimneys, and windows and doors.
I started out with a foam board mockup to get dimensions and angles, and I was pretty pleased with that. Then, I started to look at the materials required for the walls and roof and found that most of the materials are 0.020 styrene sheet, way to flimsy to construct walls and roofs.
So, my first question is, do you construct a substructure and then glue the styrene walls and shingle roofs to the substructure? What material is recommended for the substructure? Can I just use the foam board?
What is the recommended adhesive to bond the styrene sheet to the substructure?
How thin or thick should the substructure be? I am planning to use Grandt Line windows and doors.
Let me start with that. Look forward to your advice.
Rich
Alton Junction
Some brief thoughts and a few pics to illustrate.
Wall thickness depends a lot on whether you intend to do an interior. Also whether it's supposed to be a typical thickness wall (stud, wallboard and cladding) or some sort of thicker, more typical masonry construction. You're doing clapboard, so a house like that with an interior would probably not want to be constructed of foamboard -- too thick.
I like to use basswood, but balsa also works. Alternatively, you could use thicker plastic sheeting and clad it in your finish sheathing.
Here's a couple of pics from a station I built last week that show how I built up the form then covered it with plastic stone sheathing.
Pics are having an issue right now, so will try that again later. Since it was a masonry building, the window and door frames are different, thinner, than for wood buildings like yours, that usually have a wider frame.
I painted both the sheathing and the doors/windows (they're Tichy, but basically the same as Grandt, which I favor, just had these on hand) before assembly. That's a good thing if it works for the item you're modeling, but not always possible.
In this case, I built the wooden form from basswood first, then cut the plastic sheathing to fit. This works well for simple building, less so for complex ones.
The roof or floor must be removeable if detailing inside, but you may want to either keep that option open or want to get in just to do lighting, so most of my buildings feature a removeable roof or, less commonly, a removable floor.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I would not use foam. I would not build a substructure for doing an "overlay".
With .020 thick "walls", that's 1 3/4 HO inch thick. Walls in wood structures are typically 6" thick if they're stud framed. If that's what you're up to, I recommend laminating the .020 to a sheet of .040. Generally, I'd cut the .020 piece to size, lay it on a larger piece of .040 on a FLAT surface, add appropriate weights, and use a small paint brush to apply MEK to the edges. And wait. Now it's .060" thick. And it's the thickness of a real wall. Then trim off the excess .040".
Please try the concept as an experiment BEFORE doing the real thing. Get comfortable with it.
You'll likely need more reinforcement. You might get enough with the floor(s) and ceiling and roof. Probably not. But maybe. If you need more, 1/4" square would do nicely for the vertical corners. IF it doesn't show. You can add a lot of reinforcing if it won't show.
It sounds like you haven't built a structure out of styrene yet. I recommend building a couple of little sheds or shacks first. You won't be sorry.
Ed
Hi Rich:
First off, congratulations on taking the plunge!
I'm assuming this is HO.
You don't need to build a substructure for an HO house. Evergreen Scale Models sells clapboard siding as well as other sheets that are .040" thick which is sturdy enough for smaller structures (as opposed to the monster buildings that doctorwayne builds):
http://www.evergreenscalemodels.com/
You can also laminate a .040" piece of flat sheet to the .040" sheet of clapboard if you want walls that are closer to prototypical frame wall thickness. You could get really fancy if the interior is going to be seen by using V-groove sheet on the lower 40% of the walls and smooth sheet on the rest to model wainscotting. The problem with a wall that is .080" thick is that it becomes more difficult to cut out the window and door openings, but see my suggestion below about getting a nibbler. You could use the foam board as a substructure but it will likely show a bit around the windows. That isn't neccessarily a bad thing if you want to model thicker walls but in this case I don't think it would look right.
For the roof, .040" will work for the size of the structure you are planning. You may want to add a little lateral bracing with .040" x 1/2" strips. If you want things a little sturdier go for .060". I haven't done any roofs with asphalt shingles so I can't recommend a shingle product. I'm sure others can. Personally I don't like the appearance of shingles that are really rough. It just isn't realistic IMHO.
The best adhesive for assembling the walls is a water thin styrene solvent. You can buy it from Tamiya which is what I use, or I believe Testors has a version too. Or, you can go to your local hardware store and buy a can of MEK (Methyl Ethyl Keytone) which does exactly the same thing. The way I use the solvent is to apply a little to the mating surfaces with a brush, just enough to make them tacky. Then put the joint together and use the brush to apply more solvent to the non-visible side of the joint. The solvent will flow into the joint and make a very solid bond. Getting the surfaces tacky first just helps a bit to hold them in place.
You will need some strip styrene too. For example, it is wise to brace the inside non-visible corners with some .100" square stock. You will also want to have pieces for covering the outside corners of the walls. Prototypically that would be done with something like a 1" x 6" board, but I recommend using a scale 2" x 6" because the 1" stock is very thin and can disolve completely if you apply a bit too much solvent. You also want some sort of treatment for the eaves/soffit/fascia. Styles vary so for example you could model an older house with exposed 2" x 6" rafter ends, or you could build a more modern fascia/soffit assembly. If you are going to do the latter, make sure the tops of the windows will be below the level of the soffit when you are designing the walls. Also, think about what you are going to make things like porches and stairs out of. V groove siding works great for modelling a wood floor. A combination of 2" x 6' and 2" x 10" strips will form a very accurate rise and run for stairs. For railings, .030" x .060" rectangle stock with the edges sanded round works great and you can use .030" x .030" for the supports.
Chimneys can be bought pre-made or you can use brick pattern styrene sheet. Walthers sell some pretty accurate brick sheets. Plastruct sells thinner sheets but the detail isn't as crisp.
A couple of suggestions:
- When you are cutting out the openings for the windows and doors, cut them slightly small and then use a flat file to finish them to size, testing for fit as you go.
- Get yourself a set of nibbler shears for cutting openings. Much easier than trying to cut the walls with an Xacto blade or carpet knife.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002KRACO/ref=s9_top_hd_bw_b2Jr6_g469_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-2&pf_rd_r=15AWGGXBNKTP8WM6AP7K&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=df519f89-6b00-4a79-a4a6-2a9dd4709c65&pf_rd_i=552984
- Don't worry about having a lot of leftovers once you finish the house. I guarantee you will be hooked on scratch building and the spares will quickly get put to use.
- If you want the corner boards on the clapboard to be a different colour, as was often the case, paint the walls and the corner boards before installing the boards. That will give you a much sharper paint line. Same with the windows and doors. Leave a little bit of the corners of the clapboard unpainted so the glue can work.
I hope this helps a bit.
This is a small tower that I built using the above techniques:
EDIT: Having seen the picture that Michael posted of the prototype house that Rich is working on, the above tower would seem to be a totally inadequate example!
Have fun.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Rich has graciously offered to build the Coors family mansion for me. Because I have no interest or skills in building it. And there are no kits available that look similar.
This is the house in question.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Michael and Rich:
OK, when Rich said "large" he meant LARGE! I'm estimating that the building is about 200' long. That's about 27" in HO. Are you sure you don't want to do some selective compression?
To add to my previous post, the roof and the walls will definetly require internal bracing to keep them straight.
The skylights will be a bit tricky. Here is one option but the skylights have gable ends. If you were to buy a couple of extras you could cut them up to make the hip style skylights. You need to use canopy glue to assemble them or they will fog up:
http://www.campbellscalemodels.com/product_p/0909.htm
Grandt Line sells round gable windows that are pretty close to the prototype. You will need to install some more muntins if you want to be more faithful to the original:
http://www.grandtline.com/products/images/5000's/ho%20windows/5011.jpg
The rest is actually pretty straight forward, except maybe for the overall size.
If you do go with the substructure idea, take note: a couple weeks ago, I bought a 4x8 sheet of .040" sheet styrene for $20.00 from a local plastics supplier. That's 4x8 FEET! (6.25 HO ACRES!) .040 can be rolled up and carried in a car.
A sheet of .060 would have been about 36 dollars, but he'd need to order it. I've used an awful lot of .060 for structures, larger scale models, and even made a silverware divider for my wife. .60 is considerably more rigid than 40, but 40 is good too. I'll probably order a sheet of 60 as well. Compare the prices of these sheets to the price of the same stuff at the LHS... Oh, I buy my share of Evergreen too at my LHS, but for bulk sheet quantities, these can't be beat.
They also had some neat liquid cement applicator bottles with metal needle tips, and a number of cements to consider as well. In fact they have some machinable plastics too. This store has a scrap bin of various plastics, and I came out of there with a handy assortment of goodies. Check your local area for a plastics supplier.
For what it's worth, I plan to build a model of a structure that was here in Bend OR for many decades, 435 feet long. That's 5 actual feet in HO! I don't want to "compress" it, as I actually want it to take up a large space on the layout. And another building about that long as well, it being compressed from it's original length. Big is great! Dan
Rich,
Well I personally like scratch building with Mat Board and stripwood of all flavors, but I do build with styrene. I won't get into all My techniques in doing so.....I don't feel like typing that long...but I have built quite a few wood ships in My time..some scratched and the technique is the same. Here is a link to quite a few You Tube video's on How to scratch build with styrene....some are pretty good and You can glean some info from them, I'm sure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3gabIJ3Ono
Have Fun!
Frank
hon30critter Michael and Rich: OK, when Rich said "large" he meant LARGE! I'm estimating that the building is about 200' long. That's about 27" in HO. Are you sure you don't want to do some selective compression? To add to my previous post, the roof and the walls will definetly require internal bracing to keep them straight. The skylights will be a bit tricky. Here is one option but the skylights have gable ends. If you were to buy a couple of extras you could cut them up to make the hip style skylights. You need to use canopy glue to assemble them or they will fog up: http://www.campbellscalemodels.com/product_p/0909.htm Grandt Line sells round gable windows that are pretty close to the prototype. You will need to install some more muntins if you want to be more faithful to the original: http://www.grandtline.com/products/images/5000's/ho%20windows/5011.jpg The rest is actually pretty straight forward, except maybe for the overall size. Dave
As Motley's photo shows, the residential structure is a mansion. As Dave points out, it is huge and would measure over 27' wide in HO scale. We have agreed to compromise with a 16" x 10" structure. Dave, we do intend to use the Campbell #909 skylight to represent the clesestory, if that is the right term for that roof structure. And, yes, that oval window from Grandt Line is our choice for the ornamental door treatment.
What I am finding is that the cost is significant, far more than I initially thought it might cost. We are nearing $100 for the list of materials. A pair of 12" x7" clapboard sidings from Plastruct is $10 to $12 each, and we will need to pairs. The ashphalt shingle roofing is even more expensive coming in at around $30. Another $15 will be needed for windows and doors, $5 for the skylight, another $5 for chimneys. So, it ain't cheap.
A lot of great and helpful replies on the substructure issue so far. So, I need to get a 0.040" sheet of styrene or bass wood or mat board for the substructure and then apply the actual walls and roofs to it. I do not own a nibbler so that is something that I need to consider. I had hoped to get away with an Exacto knife.
One problem that I need to solve is the shingled roof. It is not easy to find ridge caps and there are plenty of ridges on that mansion. Any suggestions?
Guys, this is so helpful. Keep those suggestions coming.
If You are going to use 3-tab roof shingles, the roof caps are actually cut from the 3-tabs where they are separated, then they are folded over the ridge and nailed in place on the tar strip...simple. Did My house, garage and a couple barns, in My time.
Take Care,
zstripe Rich, If You are going to use 3-tab roof shingles, the roof caps are actually cut from the 3-tabs where they are separated, then they are folded over the ridge and nailed in place on the tar strip...simple.
If You are going to use 3-tab roof shingles, the roof caps are actually cut from the 3-tabs where they are separated, then they are folded over the ridge and nailed in place on the tar strip...simple.
I suggest you build something small like a handcar shed to start with.
Good luck
Paul
IRONROOSTER I suggest you build something small like a handcar shed to start with. Good luck Paul
As this is your first try, how about something smaller like a shed, or maybe something like this scrapyard office:
The techniques are the same regardless of size, but sometimes it's easier to dip one toe in rather than go off the high board the first time.
I use Evergreen siding, because the shop where I buy it has a large selection of Evergreen materials. It doesn't need any extra bracing, although it can't hurt.
This is a kit, not a scratchbuild, but I use this technique for most of my structures.
I illuminate most of my buildings, and it makes a big difference when the interior is not hollow, but has at least some rudimentary floors and walls so that the light does not permeate the inside, but rather gives the impression of occupied and unoccupied rooms. I built this with foam board, which is cheap and easy to work with, and also provides a strong interior lattice that makes the building much more solid.
Even thicker siding like Evergreen will glow if you put lights inside, so I make interior liners with cardstock. OK, this is overkill, but as long as I'm playing paper dolls with cardstock, I'll take a few minutes to print wall and floor patterns.
If you look at the windows, you can see why it's overkill. With small windows, you just can't see through into the interior very well, so the effort to detail buildings inside is lost. On the other hand, adding curtains, shades or Venetian blinds to the windows covers them nicely, but also lets the light through. These are from City Classics.
The effect of all this work from the outside is pleasing, but it all starts inside the building. Plan for it and you'll be rewarded.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Again, I ask, why start small?
The bigger the project, the more opportunities to learn from mistakes.
richhotrainThe bigger the project, the more opportunities to learn from mistakes.
I just like the mistakes I learn from to be smaller.
Seriously, I'm a better model builder now than I was ten years ago. Each model comes out nicer, and it's easier at the same time. This is all from accumulated knowledge. If you're going to make a "showpiece" model, you'll go into it with more skill and confidence if you do a smaller "get your feet wet" building first.
Another alternative to starting small is to build one part of the larger structure. Evaluate, then proceed on to the rest. You can always redo the first part if it's not up to your later efforts.
Another thing to consider is what viewing distance? Michael's layout space isn't huge, but if it snuggled away at say 3' distance, you can make the same impression with a lot less detail. In that case, things like wall thickness and interiors become less important -- you really can't see in the window -- but light still works well.
BTW, forgot to mention what I use for bonding plastic sheathing and the wood underneath, etc, which are dissimilar materials, but it's 3M 77 spray adhesive.
A pic inside Purgatory station. Not generally the right windows for use with stone exteriors, but it's what was paid for and on hand when it was built.
You can also mix technniques, building a more substantial form underneath (this thing will be big enough that having something more substantial than scale thickness walls and framing might be good) while using scale thickness for the walls where there's lots of openings.
Here's a pic of a barn I built showing basic stuff to build those "boxes" underneath.
Will this model's backside be hidden on the layout? There's an opportunity to cut costs and labor by simplifying that area.
richhotrain Again, I ask, why start small? The bigger the project, the more opportunities to learn from mistakes. Rich
Go for it Rich. Being a risk taker offers greater rewards. Speaking from experience going big and/or expensive made me be much more patient and methodical in the construction of all the R/C aircraft I use to scratch build. No lives are at risk.
This is a great thread. Maybe people could also mention the makers of some of the materials they used as they show us their pic's.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Just My opinion...but If I were You, I would build it out of Mat board/Illustration board 1/16 thick and comes in 20x30'' size, both sides smooth white paper and basewood or pine for bracing. It is a lot easier to get great cuts for window's & doors, then You could glue thinner Evergreen or whatever thinner texture sheets on the siding. Mat board/Illustration board is extremely strong when built that way...the plus is, You don't have to worry about light bleed through when using the board.
A couple of pic's of My use of Illustration board and white pine that I cut on My table saw and what I used it for. The overpass is all scratch built with card and wood....the ABS railings are by Rix.
The red handle xacto in the pic' has a #17 chisel blade in it...great for cutting openings.
Take Care!
The house in question could work as a first scratch build, but….it will take you a while and there may be do overs. When doing these projects often times the hardest part is coming up with the plan. Things like wall height, roof angle, eave overhangs, placement of windows - these usually take me some time. I will usually do a rough drawing of the structure to get things close. Hopefully your mock-up has allowed you to figure this part out already.
Almost everything I build of any size has some internal bracing. Your roof and other parts of the structure will need this to keep from warping. I don’t recommend building an internal shell and then covering it in clapboard. When you use this method you are in effect building the structure twice. Cutting windows and doors in two layers can also be a hassle. I would use the Evergreen clapboard sheets in as thick a dimension as you can get (.060 is ideal) and then brace them from the inside. Cutting window and doors is not as critical as it might appear. When you use Tichy/grandt line doors and windows the window/door frame will cover up some slop in the rough opening. It is still slow, painstaking work.
I recommend the Evergreen Book: Styrene Modeling.
http://www.amazon.com/Styrene-modeling-finish-realistic-styrene/dp/0967836905
In addition, look up Jack Burgess in the MR data base. He has written many articles on scratch building with styrene and he describes some basic techniques (like bracing) in great detail. You will need a flat construction surface, (I use a sheet of glass) and some 1-2-3 blocks or other square gluing aids to hold things true and plumb while they dry. The 4X8 sheet of styrene is a good suggestion for basic material as you will quickly equal that amount in small packages of plain styrene sheet. Buy extra window sizes and doors to avoid having to pay for shipping on just one item…
Your cost for this building is about right. When you begin to add it up, sometimes scratch building isn’t exactly the cheapest, but it does give you a unique model. There are tons of things to think about, hopefully my input was helpful.
All the structures (work in progress) visible in this scene are scratch built styrene with internal bracing. Windows and doors are Tichy, and Grandt line. These were all built as a single shell with lots of internal bracing.
This structure was built as a shell and then had the siding applied as a covering. From this experience (I also built four other structures not shown, at the same time using the same method) I decided not to go with the internal shell method. This building is chock full of bracing to prevent warping. Cutting windows and doors through two layers, smoothing out the wall ends, etc. were lots of extra steps.
The wood structure on the left is a foam core shell with board by board wood siding applied. Foam core still needs to be braced and can be finicky to cut accurately. I chose to use different materials moving forward to build wooden structures.
That’s too much from me, Good luck with the project.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Even in styrene, you need bracing. Also you can get thick plastic for cheap or free, old signage is the sourse, then you laminate your clapboard to it.
Rich , I appreciate your comment on cost of materials for your planned structure. We forget why craftsmen kits are very pricey.
I would recommend you consider some selected compression as I think you have mentioned. From a retired builder, it can even be done on designing actual houses. Remove one or two windows in the long face of the building and remove the wall section associated with those windows. Move the shed dormer closer to the middle of the house. Reduced the size of the sky lights. It is commonly done in modeling real world structures. David Popp has good comments about how to do selective compression in his latest video on the Madison Station Depot project he is doing for Rehab My Railroad series.
I would not have great concern on taking on this structure as a first scratch build attempt. Work from a good set of plans, build a mock up from poster board and then have at it.
Good luck.
Jim
Very informative thread! Do you guys use those guillotine choppers?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I say go for it,, if you can build a kit, you are at least half way ready. I respectfully disagree with the suggestion of starting with a small shed. If you can't cut and glue four walls together, we shoudn,t be having this conversation.You won't learn anything or master any tricks if you don.t willfully expose yourself to the need of knowing how to do it.
If you make a mistake in cutting;the building ends up a little shorter, or you add a window or door.. nobody got hurt
A few things I go by;
know your material,you can do stuff with plastic that wont work in wood
a picture or drawing is great help,Myself ,I use plans as a guild, not always the end word
I just bought $60 worth of stuff and carried it home in a small bag, but I would be hard pressed to break it down to hours of enjoyment. If that building you want to build was on a shelf in a store I'll bet it would be way past the $100 mark, and you would still have to put it together
Try it, you won,t look back
BigDaddy Very informative thread! Do you guys use those guillotine choppers?
hon30critter Get yourself a set of nibbler shears for cutting openings. Much easier than trying to cut the walls with an Xacto blade or carpet knife.
Get yourself a set of nibbler shears for cutting openings. Much easier than trying to cut the walls with an Xacto blade or carpet knife.
Think of a hole punch, except it makes square or rectangular nibbles.
Rich:
I think you should go for it without spending your time building 'sheds'. That's how I did it (OK, I made an outhouse first). The biggest mistake I have made was using too much glue to install large roundhouse style windows in my engine shop. I left too big a gap around the windows and I was trying to fill it with old fashioned Testors glue in a tube. It caused some distortion in the windows but nothing serious. If I had known what I do now about cutting the windows slightly undersize and filing the openings to fit I would never have had a problem.
Nibbler shears are designed to cut small holes in sheet stock. They were originally intended for metal work but they are perfect for styrene. They look like a pair of pliers with a little square block sticking out the end. The block has a slot with a blade that 'nibbles' material away a bit at a time. To use them, you drill a round hole in the middle of the section you want to remove large enough to allow the nibbler 'block' to fit through. Then insert the nibbler and slide the material to be removed into the slot. When you squeeze the handles the block is pulled into the end of the shears and a small piece of material is cut away. You have to repeat the process many times to get to the rough opening you want, hence the term "nibbler". It sounds like a lot of work but when compared to having to repeatedly draw a knife blade along a cut line it really is much easier. It also takes much less force. Typically, if you are doing a window opening for example, you just nibble around the inside perimeter of the opening and leave the center to fall away on its own.
As far as the cost of materials goes, can the house be seen from all sides or are there walls that won't be seen? If there will be non-visible walls don't spend the money on clapboard for them. Same with windows. You may want to have window openings in the non-visible walls for lighting purposes (to let light in) but you don't actually have to put windows in the openings unless the structure will be close to the aisle. Also, keep in mind that you will have surplus materials and they will reduce the cost of your next project.
Ridge caps on buildings of that era were often done in continuous lengths of galvanized metal. That can be simulated with thicker paper like a manila envelope or recipe cards or whatever you have on hand. The viewer won't know whether the caps are prototypically accurate or not but they will look nice.
Selective compression can be tricky. You are reducing the original by 40%. If you have done the mock-up to the size you want then you will already know if it conveys the 'spirit' of the original. In this case, I would not reduce the wall heights by the full 40% or you might not convey the height of the building. There is a lot of wall above the windows. I would also try to keep the windows closer to the original height, which might be a challenge if you are using commercially available product. You want the windows to be tall and relatively narrow. These Grandt Line windows might be a good start for the windows on the left side of the building, but you will have to build up the lintel at the top:
http://www.grandtline.com/products/images/5000's/ho%20windows/5288.jpg
These might work for the center and right walls if you remove the vertical muntins:
http://www.grandtline.com/products/images/5000's/ho%20windows/5195.jpg
Please keep us posted on your progress.