Hi everyone:
I broke down the other day and decided to bid on one of these and darned if I didn't win it:
Here is a picture of the prototype:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKeen_Motor_Car_Company#/media/File:Motor_Car_Roslyn.jpg
This thing is totally inappropriate for the era I'm modelling but I'll just have to add it to my excursion fleet.
I've done a few resin kits so I'm not afraid to take it on, but I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions about how to approach this particular model.
I have a couple of Tenshodo spud drives and NWSL Stanton drives so I am planning on using one of them to power the motorcar. The McKeen unit had a somewhat strange wheel arrangement in that the two drive wheels on the front truck were larger than the wheels on the other end of the front truck and the wheels on the non-powered rear truck. The instructions suggest using a powered truck at the rear and using NWSL 42" wheels for the front axle of the front truck.
So, what are your suggestions? Should I work with the apparently very primative supplied frame or build a new one? There don't appear to be any details on the resin frame. What would the underframe have looked like? Also, how do I recreate the very fine details of the pilot 'cow catcher'.
Thanks for your ideas.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
I have no experience with this patrticular model, but thought I'd mention another option. The Akron Canton & Youngstown Railroad had one McKeen car in the early 1920's. They retired it and turned it into an ersatz station in Mogadore, Ohio around the late 1920's. Then some time in the 1930's it was moved to become a storage shed near the rip track at the road's Brittain Yard in Akron, Ohio until it was finally dismantled in the 1960's. During that time it suffered all sorts of indignities including amputation of the pointed nose, cutting in of new doors, etc. By the time it was taken down, it was barely recognizable.
So the car certainly doesn't have to be operable. It could be repurposed as a building of some sort for your railroad. Detailing options would be limited only by your imagination.
Tom
I agree with "the bear" from having seen your work before it is very good. My only suggestions are 1. Can you "beef up" the side frames and add detail using styrene. 2. As for the cow catcher if it was me (and I'm glad it's not !) I would try to make up a jig and form it out of brass. Anyway best of luck from across the pond.
Thanks for the responses and the compliments.
I have been thinking about the 'cow catcher' pilot and I agree that brass is the way to go. I will have to design a jig that will hold all the parts in place while the solder is being applied. I thought about using CA but I think it would be difficult to keep the assembly from sticking itself to the jig.
The kit includes a resin version of the front truck, and suggests that NWSL 42" wheels can be used for a motorized version. Is it feasible to use resin side frames in an operating (non-powered) truck? How long would the axle bearing points last if they are resin or possibly styrene?
Bear
Thanks
Let the rivet counters have at it. I pretty much go by the 'its good enough' philosophy, although with the boat I'm being a little more picky the second time round.
Dave,
About Your project: I would also use brass for the pilot and also for the frame. Take a look at K&S brass parts for idea's. I would use 1/32 brass rod for the verticals and more than likely, 1/16 brass C-channel or 1/8, whichever one looks close to scale, but is also strong. You can bend the C-channel to shape, top and btm. A jig would be great. I have quite a few laying around over the yr's, for I use K&S brass part's alot.
If I may....I would like to make a comment on Your boat....You did a great job and I would like to make a suggestion for Your next one. The green hull color has to go, In My opinion it distracts from the rest of the boat,,,,,that is the first thing that caught my eye, was the green. I believe a hull Red, Brown or even black would have been better. In regards to that CreateFX stain, they do have Mahogany.
Have Fun,,,,swearing not allowed....only mumbling, when crafting!
Take Care!
Frank
Hi Frank
I think I will use .015" phosphor bronze wire for the cow catcher uprights, mainly because I have a bunch of it already. The prototype seems to use much smaller diameter rod than a traditional old west cow catcher pilot did. I suspect that the McKeen pilot was more likely designed to deflect people rather than cattle. The phosphor bronze is much stiffer than brass so it will be less likely to deform in the event of a collision. Overall, the assembly should actually be quite sturdy.
So, you don't like the green hull paint eh? I agree that it was not a common colour used for the anti-fouling paint but I did see one example where the lower hull was green, although it was a bit duller than the jade green I chose. I have no idea if it was an original colour or if there were some liberties taken during the restoration.
My reason for using the green was that when the boat is sitting on the oxide red flat car there is very little contrast between the mahogany colour and the oxide red. A red lower hull wouldn't stand out. I chose the green to make the boat 'pop' a bit. I have to admit that I like the green hull, probably just because I am a contrary sort of person.
For the next one I will honour your request and do the anti-fouling paint in a more traditional colour. The flat car on the next one is painted black so a red hull would be a nice contrast to the flat car colour.
I haven't been able to find a retailer in Canada who has individual bottles of the CreateFX paints in stock. Everyone here seems to just carry full sets, that is if they stock the stuff at all. Ordering from the US is a no go because of shipping restrictions. I will use the paint combination I used before. It turned out pretty well.
hon30critter The kit includes a resin version of the front truck, and suggests that NWSL 42" wheels can be used for a motorized version. Is it feasible to use resin side frames in an operating (non-powered) truck?
The kit includes a resin version of the front truck, and suggests that NWSL 42" wheels can be used for a motorized version. Is it feasible to use resin side frames in an operating (non-powered) truck?
Yes.
How long would the axle bearing points last if they are resin or possibly styrene?
The resin side frames should not be used mechanically. They are decorative only. You should build a proper power truck out of (mostly) metal. The bearings will be inboard of the wheels. Axles will probably be steel, bearings probably brass.
You likely could get away with powering only one axle of the front truck. With different sized wheels, this is almost a necessity. The "standard" sized wheels would be the obvious choice.
Ed
OK, thanks Ed. That gives me a better idea of how to do the side frames on the front truck. I didn't think that using a resin casting as a bearing surface was a good idea.
The instructions actually suggest putting the powered truck in the rear of the motor car where both wheels are 33" dia. That makes way more sense to me than trying to build a power truck with two different sized wheels. I have some Tenshodo spuds and NWSL Stanton drives that should be suitable for the rear truck.
I really appreciate your (and everyones') input.
I got the F&C kit today and I will give it mixed reviews.
Let me start by saying I don't have much experience (read 'very little') with resin kits, so please pardon my naivety.
First, the instructions are woefully inadequate and some of the sparse instructions that are there aren't correct or are conflicting. For example, the written instructions say that the floor does not go inside the shell but the illustration shows that it does. There is a suggestion that if you want to operate the car you should use NWSL 42" wheels, but then there is another reference to 44" wheels. Nowhere is there an NWSL part number. NWSL offers several axle variations for their 42" (44"?) wheels. How difficult would it be to give a part number? Also, there are a few pieces included in the kit that are not mentioned in the instructions and are not clearly identifiable by their shape.
In addition, the supplied floor will not fit into the shell the way the illustrations suggest without the removal of about thirty square posts that are molded into the inside bottom of the shell. Also, there seem to be some key pieces missing from the drive system on the front truck, and the truck doesn't have any place where the drive parts that are supplied can be easily attached. Worse is the attempt to mold a version of the beautiful delicate pilot. The supplied part is a bit of a mess, several of the pieces are deformed and trying to trim the flash from between the bars would be a waste of time. It will come in handy as a reference for building one from brass.
On the plus side, the shell is straight and the exterior sides of the shell are very well formed. The flat panels are very smooth and the rivet detail is crisp. Having said that, there is none of the rivet detail on the roof that should be there. Thank goodness for decal rivets. The roof is nice and smooth with only a couple of very small imperfections that will require a bit of sanding.
This is sounding a bit like a rant but that isn't my intent. My biggest complaint is the lack of instructions. The last resin kit I built was a Kaslo Shops CPR caboose. The instructions for that were voluminous by comparison.
Anyhow, the bottom line is that this is not a kit for the faint of heart. Nobody has ever accused me of being faint of heart so I hope I am up to the challenge, which I do look forward to. We will have to await the finished model to see who wins.
Stay tuned.
Have'nt built the kit but what you describe is about par for craftsman kits of this type. I will built it eventually let me know what works for you as you go along.
I did visit the McKeen at the Nevada Railroad museum recently. Thought you might enjoy the pics.. Beautiful car.....
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
If you are into 3D drawing you might consider having Shapeways print a pilot for you. A friend swears by Autodesk 123D, a free drawing program. He has drawn, then had several things printed by Shapeways. The results are amazing.
Guy:
Thanks for the pictures. I had seen some pics of the exterior of the car while restoration was underway but not the interior. I won't be able to do the whole interior in detail because I'm planning on using an older style Bachmann 44 tonner powered truck to power the car. I also want to use most of the 44 tonner cast frame to mount the power truck as well as add weight. Unfortunately the frame goes almost to the roof with the car body at the right height so it will be visible through some of the windows. However, there will be a small space at the rear and the whole front half of the car where interior detailing could be done. I have several NWSL Stanton drives and Tenshodo Spud drives which would free up the interior but their wheel bases are all way too long. The 44 tonner power truck is an almost perfect fit for the prototypical rear truck side frames.
Roger:
Thanks for the Shapeways suggestion. I'll consider going that route if my current plan goes bust. Certainly learning the programming would be an asset that could be used for numerous future projects.
I have started on a brass reproduction of the pilot and I have the holes drilled in 1/32" x 1/16" brass stock for the bottom of the pilot frame. Unfortunately the spacing of the holes is less than perfect. I'm going to do that over once I figure out a more accurate way to get the drill bit started in the right place each time. I think I was trying to work too quickly and I was also following my own advice about chucking the bit as short as possible to avoid breakage. The problem with doing that was that I couldn't see exactly where the drill bit was positioned before starting the hole. I was relying on a scribed indentation to locate the drill. For the next attempt I will chuck the drill bit so that I can see exactly where the tip sits on the workpiece. I'm hoping that with a little more patience and better visuals the second attempt will be an improvement.
Guy,
Nice pictures! The car does look a lot better than when I got a shot of it in 1970 when it was still part of Al's Plumbing shop.
- Erik
While I was waiting for the paint to dry (literally) on my Box Cab project, I got some work done on the pilot for the McKeen motor car.
Here is the new pilot along side the resin one supplied by F & C. I ended up using 1/16" brass angle for the frame because the 1/16" x 1/32" square stock proved to be very prone to breaking once the holes were drilled in it:
Here it is under the body:
I am constantly amazed by how the camera shows the small flaws. I didn't get the spacing of the upright bars as even as I had hoped. When you look at the pilot 'in person' the slightly uneven spacing doesn't show, but that darned camera ......
I haven't quite figured out what to do about the coupler. I'm leaning towards using a Kadee #711 without the box and slightly trimmed. It won't be functional.
Me three.....gotta love the use of Brass....almost a shame, to paint it.
That McKeen car is looking great! I'm about to start one of these kits myself. I found out about these kits and decided to put it on my birthday list, and then you started this topic immediately after! Weird timing, huh?
An interesting note about this kit is that it's a down to the rivet copy of the Ken Kidder brass model from decades ago! This would explain the lack of rivet detail on the roof, among other things you mentioned.
http://www.brasstrains.com/classic/Product/Detail/054544/HO-Brass-Model-Train-Ken-Kidder-3540-55-McKeen-Motor-Car-Unpainted
I'm going to gear just the 42" wheels in front like on the real McKeen cars. It's not going to be moving anything but itself, so it doesn't really need lots of traction, and it's cheaper!
_________________________________________________________________
Darth:
I hope you intend to publish one of your always excellent articles on how you are going to make the drive system. I had planned on using a powered truck from an older Bachmann 44 tonner. The wheel base is correct but I'm not too thrilled about the reliability (or lack thereof) of the truck drive system. As an alternative, I just scored 5 NWSL Stanton drives on eBay for relative peanuts. One of them might have the correct wheelbase, although the wheels will be too big. For those reasons, I would like to see what you create for the drive. I lack your vision when it comes to designing these things, but I have learned a lot from you. If I see it I can make it.
One detail that I will change on the roof is the water deflectors over the doors. Pictures of the prototype show that they are longer and higher up the roof than the F&C model, and they do not intersect with the roof/side wall joint.
I began work on replacing the resin front truck with a scratch built brass truck. Some of you may have seen my initial attempts on my thread asking about CA strength.
After making a pair of side frames that matched the resin ones supplied in the kit, I came across some pictures of the prototype that indicated that the resin side frames had some significant differences from the prototypes I was looking at. I will qualify that statement by saying that apparently there were several versions of the trucks, so I'm not saying that F & C's version is wrong.
Right now I am waiting on some components to arrive before I start again. There is a slight possibility that I might be able to make the suspensions function, which would be quite an interesting challenge.
Here is the thread on CA strength if you are interested:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/248382.aspx
It will be a few days before I get all the parts, and by then we will be on vacation in Nova Scotia so don't hold your breath!
I thought its time I should bring you up to date on my McKeen motor car project. Some of you will have seen some of these pictures on WPF.
My first attempt at the front truck didn't work out so I went at it again. Here are some of the parts:
Here is the finished version with power pick up installed. The springs don't function but the truck is self leveling. (Doctorwayne, notice the journal boxes on the rear axle. Thanks again):
These are some of the detail parts. The power truck is from NWSL. It is the newer version of their Stanton Drive. I decided to order a new drive with proper wheel size and spacing instead of using one of the older drives that I had. I'm glad I did. It runs smooth and quiet:
This is the frame. I used the original resin floor and added 1/16" lead sheet on top and a brass channel to reinforce it:
Here is the chassis more or less complete. I used a LifeLike generator engine. Its actually not too far off, except the original had the valve gear exposed. The engine pivots with the front truck as did the prototype. The round piece on the side is the flywheel:
Test fitting the body. The blue lines are where the rivet detail strips have to go. The casting has excellent rivet detail on the sides but none on the roof. After that there are 22 roof vents to install. The ones supplied with the kit bore no resemblance to the prototype so I had to make them all:
Roof exhaust vents:
Roof intake vents and engine cooling coils:
I am just starting to build the interior of the cab. I was stumped for a while but Batman (Brent) came to the rescue with some pictures and schematics. Thanks again Brent! I am waiting for seats. I haven't figured out how to do the window glazing. The interior of the casting is rather uneven so getting glass to fit tight to the window frames would be a major challenge. I already managed to put the Dremel cutter through the side once.
Until Loksound releases their version of the Galloping Goose sound decoder the McKeen will have to stay silent. Come on Loksound! You have had it listed in your future sounds file for years. The Goose is likely the closest I will get to the sound of the original 6 cylinder monster.
Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
hon30critter. I haven't figured out how to do the window glazing.
Hi Bear:
I had seen the drawing of the McKeen windows. I read that they weighed 70 lbs ea. That must be for the entire assembly including the frame. Apparently they had a nasty habit of falling on peoples' heads and there were reports of several injuries.
Thanks for the suggestion of the hole punch. I hadn't thought of that. I have clear styrene sheets that would cut easily. In a perfect world I would use real glass to get the appearance right. I wonder what it would cost to have a bunch of 7mm round glass discs made? I do have a bunch of Ngineering thin glass plates which would do nicely for the square cab windows.
I've also been trying to figure out how to make the brass frames. If I can find the right diameter brass tube I might be able to slice off thin rings. I searched the web for brass rings but everything I found had wire that was too thick to look right.
Thanks again! Your input is appreciated.
EDIT:
Bear! You are brilliant! I have a hole punch that is exactly the right size! I also found a piece of brass tube that is the right size for the frames. Problem is I don't have enough to make frames for all the windows so I will have to find some more on line (9/32" OD thin wall). That shouldn't be too hard.
hon30critterBear! You are brilliant!
Bear:
I suck with a paint brush, big time. I would be bothered forever looking at uneven paint knowing that I could have done it better. After a little testing the brass rings cut from a 9/32" tube fit perfectly, and the punched window glazing fits perfectly in the tubes too. Cutting the rings will be tedious, as will be filing them smooth, but they will look amazing!
I'm going for it! I'll let you know when I go nuts tring to make the rings.
I sent an email to Madison Kirkman who is the President of The McKeen Motor Car Company Historical Society to ask if there were any photos available of the cab interior. I got a treasure trove! I had guessed at the appearance of the controls and I had installed most of them. Some are passable, some will need to be redone a bit.
I should add that the McKeen Historical Society is in the process of getting one of the cars from Alaska to California for restoration. Donations are happily accepted.
http://www.mckeencar.com/
Nice job, Dave. The brass work is exceptional!
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
Thanks Chuck!
Very nice! My detail work won't be this extensive, but I think I'm going to do the same with rivet decals. I got a sheet of the Micro-Mark rivets that I've been waiting to try.
I'll post my own topic later, but I decided to make my own power truck with just the front 42" wheels geared like on the real ones. It makes some gear noise because of how it's put together, but it actually runs pretty well with a little weight on it! Not as well as that Stanton drive though, I'm sure!