Hi everyone:
I'm building a front truck for my McKeen rail car out of brass. The resin truck that came with the kit is for static display only. I have to attach a number of details to the side frames and I don't think I have the skill or tools to solder them in place without making a mess and pulling my hair out.
I have resorted to using CA, and I am using a 'kicker' to harden the CA quickly. Am I going to have weaker joints because I am using the kicker?
Thanks
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I can't give you a definitive scientific answer, but I can tell you that from my extensive experience with it, I've never noticed any unwanted effects from using "kicker".
For over 25 years I was building and flying high power rockets with camera payloads. These custom rockets were assembled entirely with CA, and I always used kicker (aka accelerator).
I still use it sometimes in my railroad modeling, including building several 1/24th scale plate girder bridges made of G10 fiberglass. These have all held up well despite being outdoors 24/7.
From: http://www.mercuryadhesives.com/MercuryFAQ.htm#15
" Depending on the type of accelerator and the amount of accelerator used yes accelerator can compromise the bond. Typically accelerator shocks the CA into curing causing a more brittle joint. In some case the CA can be shocked so violently that it will actually foam up introducing air into the joint. Accelerator should never be used with thin CA and there are times, if used properly (like making fillets or filling gaps) it is perfectly acceptable to use accelerator. If accelerator is used always use it sparingly."
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Thanks Ray and DSchmitt for the quick responses.
Based on what DSchmitt's post says I think I will do a little strength testing before I go any further. If the joints break easily then I'm going to have to solder the details on. I could try to get away without using the kicker but my hands shake a bit so holding tiny parts in perfect position while the CA sets on its own is very difficult. I did just order a couple of sets of different micro clamps from MicroMark so perhaps I should set the project aside until they arrive.
I am using thin CA to try to keep it from blobbing up around the pieces. The detail bits won't be under any stress and they hardly weigh anything. All I need them to do is stay in place, but I don't want to be dropping brass bits all over the railroad if there is a possibility that they will come loose.
Let me ask another question. Will the CA be affected by lubricating oil? The wheel axles will be running either directly in the side frames or in bronze bearings mounted in the side frames. Any oil, even sparingly applied, is going to migrate to the CA joints eventually. If the oil is going to loosen the CA then that answers the question right there. Time to refine my soldering skills.
Thanks again
Dave,
If I may make a suggestion: Use a Medium CA, instead of thin. As You probably know, I build a lot of different scale trucks/trailers, out Resin', styrene, wood and especially Brass, shapes, tube and rod. Even drill holes in Brass tube and insert music wire to use as pins to hold some parts together to give them extra strength, also etched metal mirrors. I make My own suspension out of brass on the static models so they roll. The only type of CA I use is Zap-A-Gap Medium CA+, I do not use any accelerant of any kind and always have great results. I do scuff brass parts where it can't be seen before bonding. Usually have 10 to 15 seconds to have a bond, then let sit. You have to be careful though....brass to styrene parts and Polyurthene Resin parts will set instantly, wood will do the same, white metal and Pewter parts to styrene and resins, will also bond instantly. I put some CA in a small medicine measuring cup and use the tip of a Micro-Brush with the brush part cut off when applying the CA. it takes a least a full hour for the CA in the cup to harden, so I have time to use it. CA does not start to work until it is applied to something. The pic' of the tiny scracthbuilt air cleaner, Brass tube two sizes, resin stock, ABS tube for top and music wire pin, all done with Zap-A-Gap Medium, they will break first, before they come apart. Experiment, or test my suggestion.
Good Luck!
Frank
Btw: I do have a extreme amount of patience though that I aquired over the yrs.....I don't rush things. The second pic', the Mack truck is a white metal casting, with brass added parts, like exhaust stack bent and shaped, with a music wire pin holding it in place. Fork truck is Pewter and etched brass roll cage and hand painted styrene figure. All glued with Zap-A-Gap, it is handled frequently and no parts have broken off yet.
Thanks Frank. Excellent information, and nice pipes!
I'm going to stick with the thin CA for the reason I stated previously i.e. the medium CA tends to fill in the details. I'm probably using too much so I have a bit of learning still to do in that regard.
I have done the strength test and the details aren't going 'nowhere'. One piece broke off but I could see that it was never seated properly against the truck frame so there was a gap that the CA had filled which would obviously not be a strong joint with thin CA. The rest were solid.
I'll post some pictures when I'm a bit further along.
I will ask my second question again: Will the lubricating oil cause the CA to fail? I don't want to find that out the hard way.
hon30critterI will ask my second question again: Will the lubricating oil cause the CA to fail? I don't want to find that out the hard way. Dave
Sorry, I missed that question. I have used LaBelle safe for plastic oil and the white grease on some of the brass axle's sparingly though....have not had a problem yet. I think as long as it isn't exposed to it always, You shouldn't have a problem. I believe the paint that You would be using on it would be the first to go, before the bond from CA. Just My opinion though.
Take Care!
Hi Frank:
I hadn't considered the issue of the oil affecting the paint, but ultimately that will be a minor issue. I intend to run the rail car, although probably not all that often, so I want to build a reliable vehicle. I have three grades of Nano Oil which I now use as my 'go to' lubricant. What I should do is make up a test with two pieces of brass CA'd together and then apply a little Nano Oil to see what happens. The problem I suspect will be that if the lubricant has any effect on the CA it will happen over a long period of time. Anyhow, I'm going to go ahead with the CA unless somebody can tell me specifically that I'm going to have trouble with the oil. We are up really late so I will give the thread a couple of days for the normal people who actually sleep at night and get up in the morning to respond.
hon30critterWe are up really late so I will give the thread a couple of days for the normal people who actually sleep at night and get up in the morning to respond. Dave
This is My morning. I get up about 2 am every day. Go to sleep about 9 ish. I can't sleep more than 5hrs a nite, been like that for a very long time....It's a truck driver ting'.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
One should never apply CA directly from the bottle, (very poor control of the amount coming out), better to pour a couple of drops into some kind of container (like a bottle cap), then use some kind of pin devise to apply the CA.
I also use a gap filling or medium CA, from Paul Smith Industries (It has a metalic purple label, often with the LHS's name on the label, or Zap A Gap. Medium CA is a lot easier to control and gives you a few extra seconds to adjust the part. I do use Zip Kicker, just one spritz if I need an instant hold. A kicked joint can become brittle if you're using a cheap store brand or Crazy Glue type CA. Use the aforementioned modeling (Industrial) quality CA's. There is a difference.*
Once cured CA should not be affected by oils or grease if there's no stress at the joint.
* Gorilla Super Glue also seems to of this quality and is a medium or gap filling CA. It comes in a 1 oz resealable bottle and may be easier to come by.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
I tend to like the thin CA, but more for parts that are held w/ pin or brass grabs, steps etc. The thin product wicks into the joint and as mentioned, keep small paper towel strips to "wick" the joint. very seldom hava an unwanted "glob of excess". A surface to surface bond may be better positioned and bonded w/ The Zap a Gap medium as Frank mentions. The use of epoxy on larger parts that may see some stress or handling may also be an option.
I used to dispense small amounts of CA from the bottle to a toothpick, but once spilled a large drop on plastic sheeting (detail parts bag). The CA remained usable for a decent amount of time, while picking up w/ a brass wire or toothpick while setting the detail parts.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
I guess I should mention, that the Zap Medium works by Capillary Attraction just like the thin does, but You have more working time and like I said, I can put it in a small cup, instead of out of the container and have close to an hour to use what I put inthere cup. I dip the end of the Micro-brush with brush part cut off and apply to the parts that need it, Caillary Attraction does the rest. Why I like using it is simple....It is also a gap filler, so when I drill holes in parts, Mirrors, pins etc. it takes up and fills the surrounding hole area that the pin or mirror did not fill. The mirrors are etched flat metal or brass and the hole is round, if You drill the hole smaller, the part won't fit. All holes are drilled before painting when paint is cured....at least 3 days, I then install the details and the combination of the paint in the hole and the gap filling CA, the hole becomes virtually invisible.
The Truck and trailer in this pic' are white metal castings and custom made brass parts, rear gate on trailer swings open and trailer lifts in air. All glued with Medium Zap, if You are careful where You apply the CA, You will not fill in detail parts and stop them from working or breaking off. When using the Medium...less is more and will not be brittle.
George:
The details are not load bearing. I'm more concerned about impact damage from handling or derailments.
Jay:
I have been using Gorilla CA for quite some time, and I also use a pin to apply it. Maybe I'll go back to that method and use as little glue as possible.
Bob:
The parts are surface mounted only. They are way to small to be pinned.
Frank:
The main reason for using the kicker was to get the parts locked in place as quickly as possible. I'm holding them by hand but my hands aren't steady enough to keep the parts in place for very long.
Here is what I am working on.
This is a rather unusual truck in that the front (drive) wheels are 44" and the rear wheels are 33". That's why the axle holes are at different heights. I have to come up with a way to re-create the suspension and rivet/bolt details. I will first try to remove them from the resin castings and glue them in place, but if that doesn't work then I will make them out of brass. The resin casting has been damaged a bit from being clamped in a soft jawed vice while I filed the brass to match the profile.
First off, great job on the brass side frames.
The journal box's You could cut them off (with a razor saw) from the side frame and sand the back side a little to make them a little thinner and CA those right to the brass side frames....the rivet's....that's another story. You may be able to do the same thing to them, just sand a little thinner, so they don't stick out from the frame too far.
Thanks Frank
One other possibility I'm considering for the suspension details is to drill out some of the parts of the side frames that don't actually belong there and then use Kadee springs to make it look more realistic. It would be a bit time consuming but what else am I doing with my time? I think it would be neat to be able see through the side frames. I still haven't quite figured out how to do the cross member. It will have to be removable because I'm using shouldered axle wheel sets.
One other interesting thing that is going on is that Darth Santa Fe is working on the same F & C McKeen motor car kit. He intends to power the front truck which was how the original was powered whereas I am going to use a NWSL Stanton Drive to power the car through the rear prototypically unpowered truck. If anybody can do it, he can! I like the idea of the Stanton drive because it will allow for the entire interior to be detailed, not that Darth's won't - I haven't seen his design yet. With all those wonderful round windows the car just begs for interior detail.
To replace rivets, http://www.archertransfers.com/ has a great assortment 3D rivet decals.
Hi Jay: Thanks for the suggestion.
Actually, I already have several of the Archer rivet decal sheets and I have used then to great effect on things like a scratch built Russell double track snow plow, also made from brass.
My problem in this case is that when I look at a prototype picture of the McKeen side frames the 'rivets' stand out way more than the Archer details would. In fact, I rather suspect that they are bolts, not rivets. I'd like to get that depth in the details if I can. What I am contemplating is similar to what Frank suggested, i.e. sand the back of the resin truck frames until there is only a paper thin layer left with the rivets/bolts on them.
Tonight I made the decision to use real springs in the suspension so I am in the process of removing the material in the side frames where the springs reside. They won't be functional but they will look better. I also decided to open up the space where the axle bearing sits so it will look like the bearing can actually slide up and down in the side frame.
I also realized that the resin side frames are not actually all that accurate in terms of their profile. Before I go any further I will have to decide if the brass copies I have made are acceptable or whether I should start over.
I'd better be careful here. I'm starting to sound like a rivet (bolt) counter!
Nothin' wrong with counting rivets (or bolts) as long as they're your own. You can represent the bolts using brass wire of suitable diameter, and if you drill holes for them, they can be held in place either by soldering or with ca - a mechanical joint is the only situation in which I use ca, usually for attaching grabirons or for affixing detail parts using wire pins.Here's a Red Caboose boxcar with a "bolted-on" placard board:
I don't consider myself an especially proficient solderer either, but patience and a little ingenuity can help.
This tender ladder was built using a simple homemade jig:
...and this one, with curved rungs, was soldered together while on the plastic tender, using small wads of wet paper towel as heat sinks.
That's some nice work on the sideframes, Dave, and I think that you're underestimating your own capabilities.
Wayne
I have decided to start over on the side frames. I managed to find some good pictures and drawings of a later version of the prototype and my first attempt isn't very close to the original.
I have also decided to solder the main truck components together instead of using CA. I will likely us some CA for the finer details.
I am going to post any further developments on the original thread that I started specifically related to building the McKeen car kit:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/246923.aspx
Thanks for your help everyone.
One thing that I learned the hard way about CA and Kicker is to not get both of them on your skin at the same time! It must get quite hot, as it burns like hell!
Victor A. Baird
Fort Wayne, Indiana
hon30critter I have decided to start over on the side frames. I managed to find some good pictures and drawings of a later version of the prototype and my first attempt isn't very close to the original. I have also decided to solder the main truck components together instead of using CA. I will likely us some CA for the finer details. I am going to post any further developments on the original thread that I started specifically related to building the McKeen car kit: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/246923.aspx Thanks for your help everyone. Dave
HI, Dave!
One thing you need to remember about CA: it has little or no shear strength. if the joint will have any side pressure applied to it, it will come apart, especially the thin stuff. I think your decision to solder up the sideframes is a wise one.
As far as the rivets go, you could always use the rivet decals which are available from at least 2 sources, one of which is Micro-Mark (I can't remember the other one right at the moment).
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Gary M. Collins gmcrailgNOSPAM@gmail.com
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"Common Sense, Ain't!" -- G. M. Collins
http://fhn.site90.net
Hi Gary
Yes, I discovered that it didn't take too much force to break the CA'd on details when I put some sideways pressure on them. At first I had thought that they were fairly solid. The revised design of the side frames actually eliminates a lot of the soldering that I would have to have done on the first attempt.
Thanks for the rivet detail suggestion. I haven't seen the Micro-Mark rivet decals in person but I have used the rivets from Archer Fine Transfers which is the other supplier. In fact, I intend to use the Archer rivets to add missing details to the roof of the McKeen car. My problem with the Archer rivets is that, while the diameter is right, they are a bit on the shallow side. They don't stick up as much as I want. The main rivets on the McKeen truck were pretty hefty and I want to re-create that appearance. I'm probably splitting hairs so I will give them a try to see how they look. If they don't suit me then I will use doctorwayne's brass wire suggestion. There are actually only about 12 really large rivets on either side of the truck so its not like I have to drill dozens of holes.