"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
I have no experience with this patrticular model, but thought I'd mention another option. The Akron Canton & Youngstown Railroad had one McKeen car in the early 1920's. They retired it and turned it into an ersatz station in Mogadore, Ohio around the late 1920's. Then some time in the 1930's it was moved to become a storage shed near the rip track at the road's Brittain Yard in Akron, Ohio until it was finally dismantled in the 1960's. During that time it suffered all sorts of indignities including amputation of the pointed nose, cutting in of new doors, etc. By the time it was taken down, it was barely recognizable.
So the car certainly doesn't have to be operable. It could be repurposed as a building of some sort for your railroad. Detailing options would be limited only by your imagination.
Tom
I agree with "the bear" from having seen your work before it is very good. My only suggestions are 1. Can you "beef up" the side frames and add detail using styrene. 2. As for the cow catcher if it was me (and I'm glad it's not !) I would try to make up a jig and form it out of brass. Anyway best of luck from across the pond.
Thanks for the responses and the compliments.
I have been thinking about the 'cow catcher' pilot and I agree that brass is the way to go. I will have to design a jig that will hold all the parts in place while the solder is being applied. I thought about using CA but I think it would be difficult to keep the assembly from sticking itself to the jig.
The kit includes a resin version of the front truck, and suggests that NWSL 42" wheels can be used for a motorized version. Is it feasible to use resin side frames in an operating (non-powered) truck? How long would the axle bearing points last if they are resin or possibly styrene?
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Bear
Thanks
Let the rivet counters have at it. I pretty much go by the 'its good enough' philosophy, although with the boat I'm being a little more picky the second time round.
Dave,
About Your project: I would also use brass for the pilot and also for the frame. Take a look at K&S brass parts for idea's. I would use 1/32 brass rod for the verticals and more than likely, 1/16 brass C-channel or 1/8, whichever one looks close to scale, but is also strong. You can bend the C-channel to shape, top and btm. A jig would be great. I have quite a few laying around over the yr's, for I use K&S brass part's alot.
If I may....I would like to make a comment on Your boat....You did a great job and I would like to make a suggestion for Your next one. The green hull color has to go, In My opinion it distracts from the rest of the boat,,,,,that is the first thing that caught my eye, was the green. I believe a hull Red, Brown or even black would have been better. In regards to that CreateFX stain, they do have Mahogany.
Have Fun,,,,swearing not allowed....only mumbling, when crafting!
Take Care!
Frank
Hi Frank
I think I will use .015" phosphor bronze wire for the cow catcher uprights, mainly because I have a bunch of it already. The prototype seems to use much smaller diameter rod than a traditional old west cow catcher pilot did. I suspect that the McKeen pilot was more likely designed to deflect people rather than cattle. The phosphor bronze is much stiffer than brass so it will be less likely to deform in the event of a collision. Overall, the assembly should actually be quite sturdy.
So, you don't like the green hull paint eh? I agree that it was not a common colour used for the anti-fouling paint but I did see one example where the lower hull was green, although it was a bit duller than the jade green I chose. I have no idea if it was an original colour or if there were some liberties taken during the restoration.
My reason for using the green was that when the boat is sitting on the oxide red flat car there is very little contrast between the mahogany colour and the oxide red. A red lower hull wouldn't stand out. I chose the green to make the boat 'pop' a bit. I have to admit that I like the green hull, probably just because I am a contrary sort of person.
For the next one I will honour your request and do the anti-fouling paint in a more traditional colour. The flat car on the next one is painted black so a red hull would be a nice contrast to the flat car colour.
I haven't been able to find a retailer in Canada who has individual bottles of the CreateFX paints in stock. Everyone here seems to just carry full sets, that is if they stock the stuff at all. Ordering from the US is a no go because of shipping restrictions. I will use the paint combination I used before. It turned out pretty well.
hon30critter The kit includes a resin version of the front truck, and suggests that NWSL 42" wheels can be used for a motorized version. Is it feasible to use resin side frames in an operating (non-powered) truck?
The kit includes a resin version of the front truck, and suggests that NWSL 42" wheels can be used for a motorized version. Is it feasible to use resin side frames in an operating (non-powered) truck?
Yes.
How long would the axle bearing points last if they are resin or possibly styrene?
The resin side frames should not be used mechanically. They are decorative only. You should build a proper power truck out of (mostly) metal. The bearings will be inboard of the wheels. Axles will probably be steel, bearings probably brass.
You likely could get away with powering only one axle of the front truck. With different sized wheels, this is almost a necessity. The "standard" sized wheels would be the obvious choice.
Ed
OK, thanks Ed. That gives me a better idea of how to do the side frames on the front truck. I didn't think that using a resin casting as a bearing surface was a good idea.
The instructions actually suggest putting the powered truck in the rear of the motor car where both wheels are 33" dia. That makes way more sense to me than trying to build a power truck with two different sized wheels. I have some Tenshodo spuds and NWSL Stanton drives that should be suitable for the rear truck.
I really appreciate your (and everyones') input.
I got the F&C kit today and I will give it mixed reviews.
Let me start by saying I don't have much experience (read 'very little') with resin kits, so please pardon my naivety.
First, the instructions are woefully inadequate and some of the sparse instructions that are there aren't correct or are conflicting. For example, the written instructions say that the floor does not go inside the shell but the illustration shows that it does. There is a suggestion that if you want to operate the car you should use NWSL 42" wheels, but then there is another reference to 44" wheels. Nowhere is there an NWSL part number. NWSL offers several axle variations for their 42" (44"?) wheels. How difficult would it be to give a part number? Also, there are a few pieces included in the kit that are not mentioned in the instructions and are not clearly identifiable by their shape.
In addition, the supplied floor will not fit into the shell the way the illustrations suggest without the removal of about thirty square posts that are molded into the inside bottom of the shell. Also, there seem to be some key pieces missing from the drive system on the front truck, and the truck doesn't have any place where the drive parts that are supplied can be easily attached. Worse is the attempt to mold a version of the beautiful delicate pilot. The supplied part is a bit of a mess, several of the pieces are deformed and trying to trim the flash from between the bars would be a waste of time. It will come in handy as a reference for building one from brass.
On the plus side, the shell is straight and the exterior sides of the shell are very well formed. The flat panels are very smooth and the rivet detail is crisp. Having said that, there is none of the rivet detail on the roof that should be there. Thank goodness for decal rivets. The roof is nice and smooth with only a couple of very small imperfections that will require a bit of sanding.
This is sounding a bit like a rant but that isn't my intent. My biggest complaint is the lack of instructions. The last resin kit I built was a Kaslo Shops CPR caboose. The instructions for that were voluminous by comparison.
Anyhow, the bottom line is that this is not a kit for the faint of heart. Nobody has ever accused me of being faint of heart so I hope I am up to the challenge, which I do look forward to. We will have to await the finished model to see who wins.
Stay tuned.
Have'nt built the kit but what you describe is about par for craftsman kits of this type. I will built it eventually let me know what works for you as you go along.
I did visit the McKeen at the Nevada Railroad museum recently. Thought you might enjoy the pics.. Beautiful car.....
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
If you are into 3D drawing you might consider having Shapeways print a pilot for you. A friend swears by Autodesk 123D, a free drawing program. He has drawn, then had several things printed by Shapeways. The results are amazing.
Guy:
Thanks for the pictures. I had seen some pics of the exterior of the car while restoration was underway but not the interior. I won't be able to do the whole interior in detail because I'm planning on using an older style Bachmann 44 tonner powered truck to power the car. I also want to use most of the 44 tonner cast frame to mount the power truck as well as add weight. Unfortunately the frame goes almost to the roof with the car body at the right height so it will be visible through some of the windows. However, there will be a small space at the rear and the whole front half of the car where interior detailing could be done. I have several NWSL Stanton drives and Tenshodo Spud drives which would free up the interior but their wheel bases are all way too long. The 44 tonner power truck is an almost perfect fit for the prototypical rear truck side frames.
Roger:
Thanks for the Shapeways suggestion. I'll consider going that route if my current plan goes bust. Certainly learning the programming would be an asset that could be used for numerous future projects.
I have started on a brass reproduction of the pilot and I have the holes drilled in 1/32" x 1/16" brass stock for the bottom of the pilot frame. Unfortunately the spacing of the holes is less than perfect. I'm going to do that over once I figure out a more accurate way to get the drill bit started in the right place each time. I think I was trying to work too quickly and I was also following my own advice about chucking the bit as short as possible to avoid breakage. The problem with doing that was that I couldn't see exactly where the drill bit was positioned before starting the hole. I was relying on a scribed indentation to locate the drill. For the next attempt I will chuck the drill bit so that I can see exactly where the tip sits on the workpiece. I'm hoping that with a little more patience and better visuals the second attempt will be an improvement.
Guy,
Nice pictures! The car does look a lot better than when I got a shot of it in 1970 when it was still part of Al's Plumbing shop.
- Erik
While I was waiting for the paint to dry (literally) on my Box Cab project, I got some work done on the pilot for the McKeen motor car.
Here is the new pilot along side the resin one supplied by F & C. I ended up using 1/16" brass angle for the frame because the 1/16" x 1/32" square stock proved to be very prone to breaking once the holes were drilled in it:
Here it is under the body:
I am constantly amazed by how the camera shows the small flaws. I didn't get the spacing of the upright bars as even as I had hoped. When you look at the pilot 'in person' the slightly uneven spacing doesn't show, but that darned camera ......
I haven't quite figured out what to do about the coupler. I'm leaning towards using a Kadee #711 without the box and slightly trimmed. It won't be functional.
Me three.....gotta love the use of Brass....almost a shame, to paint it.
That McKeen car is looking great! I'm about to start one of these kits myself. I found out about these kits and decided to put it on my birthday list, and then you started this topic immediately after! Weird timing, huh?
An interesting note about this kit is that it's a down to the rivet copy of the Ken Kidder brass model from decades ago! This would explain the lack of rivet detail on the roof, among other things you mentioned.
http://www.brasstrains.com/classic/Product/Detail/054544/HO-Brass-Model-Train-Ken-Kidder-3540-55-McKeen-Motor-Car-Unpainted
I'm going to gear just the 42" wheels in front like on the real McKeen cars. It's not going to be moving anything but itself, so it doesn't really need lots of traction, and it's cheaper!
_________________________________________________________________
Darth:
I hope you intend to publish one of your always excellent articles on how you are going to make the drive system. I had planned on using a powered truck from an older Bachmann 44 tonner. The wheel base is correct but I'm not too thrilled about the reliability (or lack thereof) of the truck drive system. As an alternative, I just scored 5 NWSL Stanton drives on eBay for relative peanuts. One of them might have the correct wheelbase, although the wheels will be too big. For those reasons, I would like to see what you create for the drive. I lack your vision when it comes to designing these things, but I have learned a lot from you. If I see it I can make it.
One detail that I will change on the roof is the water deflectors over the doors. Pictures of the prototype show that they are longer and higher up the roof than the F&C model, and they do not intersect with the roof/side wall joint.
I began work on replacing the resin front truck with a scratch built brass truck. Some of you may have seen my initial attempts on my thread asking about CA strength.
After making a pair of side frames that matched the resin ones supplied in the kit, I came across some pictures of the prototype that indicated that the resin side frames had some significant differences from the prototypes I was looking at. I will qualify that statement by saying that apparently there were several versions of the trucks, so I'm not saying that F & C's version is wrong.
Right now I am waiting on some components to arrive before I start again. There is a slight possibility that I might be able to make the suspensions function, which would be quite an interesting challenge.
Here is the thread on CA strength if you are interested:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/248382.aspx
It will be a few days before I get all the parts, and by then we will be on vacation in Nova Scotia so don't hold your breath!
I thought its time I should bring you up to date on my McKeen motor car project. Some of you will have seen some of these pictures on WPF.
My first attempt at the front truck didn't work out so I went at it again. Here are some of the parts:
Here is the finished version with power pick up installed. The springs don't function but the truck is self leveling. (Doctorwayne, notice the journal boxes on the rear axle. Thanks again):
These are some of the detail parts. The power truck is from NWSL. It is the newer version of their Stanton Drive. I decided to order a new drive with proper wheel size and spacing instead of using one of the older drives that I had. I'm glad I did. It runs smooth and quiet:
This is the frame. I used the original resin floor and added 1/16" lead sheet on top and a brass channel to reinforce it:
Here is the chassis more or less complete. I used a LifeLike generator engine. Its actually not too far off, except the original had the valve gear exposed. The engine pivots with the front truck as did the prototype. The round piece on the side is the flywheel:
Test fitting the body. The blue lines are where the rivet detail strips have to go. The casting has excellent rivet detail on the sides but none on the roof. After that there are 22 roof vents to install. The ones supplied with the kit bore no resemblance to the prototype so I had to make them all:
Roof exhaust vents:
Roof intake vents and engine cooling coils:
I am just starting to build the interior of the cab. I was stumped for a while but Batman (Brent) came to the rescue with some pictures and schematics. Thanks again Brent! I am waiting for seats. I haven't figured out how to do the window glazing. The interior of the casting is rather uneven so getting glass to fit tight to the window frames would be a major challenge. I already managed to put the Dremel cutter through the side once.
Until Loksound releases their version of the Galloping Goose sound decoder the McKeen will have to stay silent. Come on Loksound! You have had it listed in your future sounds file for years. The Goose is likely the closest I will get to the sound of the original 6 cylinder monster.
Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
hon30critter. I haven't figured out how to do the window glazing.
Hi Bear:
I had seen the drawing of the McKeen windows. I read that they weighed 70 lbs ea. That must be for the entire assembly including the frame. Apparently they had a nasty habit of falling on peoples' heads and there were reports of several injuries.
Thanks for the suggestion of the hole punch. I hadn't thought of that. I have clear styrene sheets that would cut easily. In a perfect world I would use real glass to get the appearance right. I wonder what it would cost to have a bunch of 7mm round glass discs made? I do have a bunch of Ngineering thin glass plates which would do nicely for the square cab windows.
I've also been trying to figure out how to make the brass frames. If I can find the right diameter brass tube I might be able to slice off thin rings. I searched the web for brass rings but everything I found had wire that was too thick to look right.
Thanks again! Your input is appreciated.
EDIT:
Bear! You are brilliant! I have a hole punch that is exactly the right size! I also found a piece of brass tube that is the right size for the frames. Problem is I don't have enough to make frames for all the windows so I will have to find some more on line (9/32" OD thin wall). That shouldn't be too hard.
hon30critterBear! You are brilliant!
Bear:
I suck with a paint brush, big time. I would be bothered forever looking at uneven paint knowing that I could have done it better. After a little testing the brass rings cut from a 9/32" tube fit perfectly, and the punched window glazing fits perfectly in the tubes too. Cutting the rings will be tedious, as will be filing them smooth, but they will look amazing!
I'm going for it! I'll let you know when I go nuts tring to make the rings.
I sent an email to Madison Kirkman who is the President of The McKeen Motor Car Company Historical Society to ask if there were any photos available of the cab interior. I got a treasure trove! I had guessed at the appearance of the controls and I had installed most of them. Some are passable, some will need to be redone a bit.
I should add that the McKeen Historical Society is in the process of getting one of the cars from Alaska to California for restoration. Donations are happily accepted.
http://www.mckeencar.com/
Nice job, Dave. The brass work is exceptional!
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
Thanks Chuck!
Very nice! My detail work won't be this extensive, but I think I'm going to do the same with rivet decals. I got a sheet of the Micro-Mark rivets that I've been waiting to try.
I'll post my own topic later, but I decided to make my own power truck with just the front 42" wheels geared like on the real ones. It makes some gear noise because of how it's put together, but it actually runs pretty well with a little weight on it! Not as well as that Stanton drive though, I'm sure!
Darth Santa Fe:
I can hardly wait to see how you have done the power truck.
I got really brave and decided to hollow out the ceiling of the shell. The casting came with some pretty hefty reinforcing in the ceiling which would have prevented the unique round windows from being modeled in the open position. So, I made a huge mess with my Dremel (wife was not impressed - I told her sometimes you just have to sacrifice!). The ceiling is not perfectly smooth but I don't think that it will show. If it does I will put a liner in it rather than risk cutting the shell even thinner. I managed to cut through the side walls in a couple of spots already . Nothing that a little putty can't fix.
Before:
After:
The initial attempts at modeling the round brass window frames has produced some good results. However, it is going to take a little time to cut all 45 or so rings for the frames from 9/32" thin wall brass tube. There are only 31 round windows but I need a second ring where I am going to model the windows in the open position. Pictures to follow when I have something that actually looks like a window.
I have the brass window frames cut from 9/32" tube. About half of the windows will be modeled in the open position. Those are the frames on the right. All the windows will have glazing.
I received the passenger seats from Walthers. Now to figure out the floor arrangement so that the shell can be removed.
Well, I had a rather successful evening if I do say so. I had been fearing the task of applying the rivet detail decals to the roof because my previous experience with them was a bit negative. Tonight I successfully applied a total of 28 strips of Archer Fine Transfer rivet decals to the roof and the task was far easier than I had anticipated. Photographing the decals in their current state would be futile since they are on a mostly black background. but they seem to be reasonably properly aligned to me. We will have to wait for the finished paint job to really see how they look.
I have to give thanks to a contributor on another post (which I can't find so I can't give proper credit) who suggested using water only to position the decals, and then wait until they dry to apply decal solvent. Previously I had been using Micro Sol to try to keep the decals afloat while getting them into place. Those of you with more experience will know exactly how well that doesn't work. Don't know where I got that idea from but it was bad advice.
Anyhow, the next step will be to apply Micro Sol a few more times and then seal the decals.
Happy happy happy!!!!
hon30critterHappy happy happy!!!!
Hi JaBear:
Yes I'm happy! You are very astute!
Honestly, I was so afraid of messing up the decals that I almost decided not to bother with them. The advice about using water only saved my butt!
Regards
Here are some shots of the progress to date:
I managed to get a decent shot of the roof rivet details:
The next step was to install the roof details. The exhaust vents (square thingies) aren't as delicate as I would like but what the heck:
Next step was to paint the interior and then install the interior lighting. Here is the LED 'tree'. I used 30.1K resistors so the LEDs just glow:
Here are the lights installed. I will paint the resistors the same colour as the ceiling:
Until I can get a decent sound decoder I am going to use a basic Digitrax unit. It sits quite nicely between the side entrance steps. I don't plan on turning the motor car upside down to show it off, and the wiring fits nicely between the air tanks:
I installed a plug in the cab so the shell could be removed. One lead is for the blue common, one for the white headlight, and the third is for interior lighting. I have decided to not illuminate the cab:
I managed to break two of the chains connected to the rear truck. Putting those back in place was a major pain but I managed to do it. The breakage occurred when I was trying to loosen up the chains after they had been lightly painted. I have decided that painting chains that are supposed to flex is not a good idea. I'll have to invest in some oxidizing chemicals.
I'm getting really close to painting the exterior of the shell, but I want to get as much other work done as I can so as to minimize the handling of the shell after it is painted. Thanks for straightening me out on that Bear.
More to come.
I'm going to post a few of the details on WPF too, simply because i can't get enough of blowing my own horn. David Bedard will have a ball with that statement!
All the best everyone!
this is outstanding work!
Will we be seeing a nice video of your rail car?
Really nice work. How did you manage to cut such thin rings off the brass tube.
Sorry Dave for butting in.
Hi karle:
I used a fine tooth razor saw to cut the rings. For the windows that will be modeled in the open position I left a tiny bit of the tube intact between the two rings to act as a hinge and then bent the open window into position. The hinges were rather weak so I used a bit of solder to reinforce them.
I will add that it took a lot of filing to get the rings smooth and of even thickness. I used a round file to smooth the insides of the rings and a small flat file to smooth the fronts and backs.
I will glaze the windows using a hole punch to cut .005" clear styrene. One question I have yet to answer is how to keep the windows clean when installing them. I'm going to try latex gloves, but if necessary I will use some alcohol on a Q tip to get the finger prints off. I'm also having a hard time getting the windows out of the hole punch without damaging them. That I have yet to resolve.
Of course I don't mind you interjecting an unrelated question into the thread. What are the forums for if not to communicate.
Hi Ulrich:
Thanks for your comment.
Yes, I will do a video, but it will be silent until I can get an appropriate sound decoder.
hon30critterOf course I don't mind you interjecting an unrelated question into the thread.
hon30critterI'm also having a hard time getting the windows out of the hole punch without damaging them. That
How about punching some other material, like cardboard and use that as a pusher to ease the clear styrene out of the puncher???
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
George!
You are brilliant!!
'Ask and ye shall receive'.
The windows are 9/32" in diameter, and they stick very firmly in the punch. I tried a number of things to push them out but anything soft enough to not mar the surface simply broke, and anything hard enough to pop the windows out also damaged them. I think George Paine's idea should work, although I will try .040" styrene as well as the cardboard he suggested.
Your comment about Georges suggestion is vey appropriate.
OOPS!!!!
I decided it was time to test my decoder installation. BIG short! After a little testing I determined that I had the rear truck wired to the wrong tracks.
The easiest solution was to switch the wires on the front truck and add 1 to CV 29. Worked like a charm!
Jabear: thanks for remembering me and the Transfer project. I have been pretty much "off line" due to work and other priorities but have noticed occasionally that you are working on your ferry. Guess what, I have completed the Transfer and it came out better than anticipated. I will post some photosin a new thread in the near future though I am not much of a photographer . It was a long and challenging build.....as I am sure you can understand.
Thanks for the reply hon30. You must have real patience. I have often tought it would be good if there were a scratch builders website or category here to share techniques.
karle......I have completed the Transfer.....
karle....and it came out better than anticipated.
karleI will post some photos in a new thread in the near future
karle It was a long and challenging build..
karle:
I went beyond patient! I miscalculated how many rings I needed and I cut 10 too many.
hon30critter I cut 10 too many
Now you can model a ring toss game
.......or use the extras for HO Hula Hoops.
I'm just trying to be helpful.
George and Tom!
Actually, I had thought of the hula-hoop thing, but I'll be darned if I plan on filing another 10 rings smooth
I have painted the exterior, and I have installed the brass window frames. Glazing the windows hasn't worked out as I had hoped, and neither did the modeling of the open window frames. I managed to get a couple of the open window frames installed but the rest wouldn't let the fixed part of the window frame sit flush with the outside of the car sides. I'm not going to worry about installing any more open window frames because the truth is that they are very hard to see, and trying to see them would result in a lot of unnecessary handling of the car with the resulting toll on the paint etc. This is a situation where there is too much detail.
I'm also thinking of leaving the round windows unglazed because so far my efforts to cut clean, unmarred window glass haven't worked satisfactorily. The clear styrene is either damaged in the cutting process or it doesn't fit flat in the frame. Actually I'm quite happy to leave the windows unglazed because that it how I have modeled most of my other projects to date. Having said that, I do have some real glass window glazing from Ngineering that I think I will install in the square windows in the cab, that is if I can figure out how to get the glass really clean, i.e. no finger prints.
The wee beast is approaching completion. I have ordered some custom decals with both the 'McKeen Motor Car' lettering and the 'Cuyamaca Motor Car' lettering plus some stripes to go along the bottom of the shell. The Cuyamaca car was a predecessor of the Southern Pacific designation on their McKeen motor cars. SP had quite a number of the McKeen cars in various configurations. I haven't decided whether or not to use the Cuyamaca name because anything SP would be totally out of place on my railroad, not that the Mckeen car fits in any better.
hon30critter Hi Bear: The windows are 9/32" in diameter, and they stick very firmly in the punch. I tried a number of things to push them out but anything soft enough to not mar the surface simply broke, and anything hard enough to pop the windows out also damaged them. I think George Paine's idea should work, although I will try .040" styrene as well as the cardboard he suggested. Thanks Dave
Hi Wayne:
Thanks for the offer. By all means have a go if you wish. Again, it will be no big deal if the round windows aren't glazed. I'll glaze the square cab windows and just pretend it is a very hot day for the passengers.
Just to clarify, the window glazing is 1/4" diameter. 9/32" is the OD of the brass window frames.
Part of the problem with the clear styrene is that the punch doesn't cut cleanly through. The styrene tends to fracture leaving a small amount of flash around the outside edge. Perhaps I'm not using a solid enough surface to allow the punch to work cleanly. I was worried that I would dull the punch if the surface was too hard. I have a piece of oak which I will try.
I just tried the oak and the results were worse.
I don't think I'm trying too hard, but what I won't accept is window glazing that is not clear and flat. I can get flat discs by punching multiple discs before removing them from the punch, but the last 4 or 5 are damaged by the force needed to push them out. Unfortunately, the ones that are flat are fractured slightly around the outside edges enough that the damage would be visible, and the fracturing leaves bits on the edge that increase the diameter enough that when the disc is pushed into the frame it is curved. The curvature is minor but still enough to be noticed.
If I could find a source that could laser cut the discs from Lexan that would work perfectly. I think I will give American Model Builders, makers of LaserKit glazing, a call.
hon30critter Hi Bear: I don't think I'm trying too hard, but what I won't accept is window glazing that is not clear and flat. I can get flat discs by punching multiple discs before removing them from the punch, but the last 4 or 5 are damaged by the force needed to push them out. Unfortunately, the ones that are flat are fractured slightly around the outside edges enough that the damage would be visible, and the fracturing leaves bits on the edge that increase the diameter enough that when the disc is pushed into the frame it is curved. The curvature is minor but still enough to be noticed. If I could find a source that could laser cut the discs from Lexan that would work perfectly. I think I will give American Model Builders, makers of LaserKit glazing, a call. Dave
How about 7mm circular coverglass #0? You can buy them from a number of scientific vendors (a quick google search pulled up a few). 7mm is just a bit larger than 0.25 inch which is equal to 6.35mm, so you should be good.
I have had great success using a small 000 brush to apply Johnson's acrylic floor wax as glazing adhesive. Capillary action draws the clear acrylic to the mating surfaces without any mess and it dries completely clear.
To handle glass glazing without smudging, I use a miniature suction tool to pick up and put the glazing in place.
BTW, great build.
Joel
Modeling the C&O New River Subdivision circa 1949 for the fun of it!
Hi Joel:
I was wondering if there was something out there like what you suggest. Thanks for the idea. The problem I see is that 7mm simply will not fit into the window frames. The .25" styrene discs that I have punched out are already a very tight fit so I think that the extra .65mm would be a killer. They would work perfectly if I could mount them on the surface of the frames but unfortunately the frames have already been glued in place flush with the outside of the shell, and the window frame rings are too thick and not all the same exact thickness so mounting the coverglass on the inside wouldn't look even. Had I not installed the brass window frames at all the coverglass discs would have fit into the window openings quite nicely. However, I really wanted the brass window frames to show even though they wouldn't have been as obvious on the prototype.
Yes, I'm getting pretty fussy here (perhaps 'pig headed' would be more accurate), but I do appreciate your suggestion very much. I'll keep it in mind.
Thank you.
hon30critter Hi Joel: I was wondering if there was something out there like what you suggest. Thanks for the idea. The problem I see is that 7mm simply will not fit into the window frames. The .25" styrene discs that I have punched out are already a very tight fit so I think that the extra .65mm would be a killer. They would work perfectly if I could mount them on the surface of the frames but unfortunately the frames have already been glued in place flush with the outside of the shell, and the window frame rings are too thick and not all the same exact thickness so mounting the coverglass on the inside wouldn't look even. Had I not installed the brass window frames at all the coverglass discs would have fit into the window openings quite nicely. However, I really wanted the brass window frames to show even though they wouldn't have been as obvious on the prototype. Yes, I'm getting pretty fussy here (perhaps 'pig headed' would be more accurate), but I do appreciate your suggestion very much. I'll keep it in mind. Thank you. Dave
Hi Dave,
I see what you mean about the fit. Apart from trying to have AMB make you a set, I had a thought that involves a bit of work. You could take a length of 0.25 inch clear rod and turn it down in a drill with fine grit sandpaper to get the exact fit you need. Next, you would need to slice the resized rod into thin disks with a fine jeweler's blade or whatever. Next, you would need to successively polish the tooling marks out of both sides of each disk. Finer and finer grit wet/dry paper until you get the disk crystal clear (this is a trick that my military modeler brother uses to get crystal clear canopies for his aircraft builds). You can get extremely high grit sand paper for this purpose (google polishing canopies). The process is time consuming, but you would be ensured a perfect fit in each window.
A less attractive alternative is to use microscale crystal clear (as you may know a type of white resin liquid that looks like white glue) to make the "glass" in each circular window. You would need to experiment on some rings to see if you can get a thin film to form that when dry will be the glazing. I have used this method with some success, but the "glass" can have weird optical properties. Kind of like looking through a thick piece of bottle glass. Thinning down the CC may give better results...
Thanks for the suggestions.
As far as cutting and polishing discs for the windows, I may be patient but I don't think I'm quite that patient. Also, I have used MicroScale Crystal Clear to form windows in a scratch built yard tower but I was simply not satisfied with the results. I wanted to detail the interior of the tower but the lack of clarity in the glazing turned that into a waste of time.
My feeling is that if I am going to glaze the windows then it has to look like glass i.e. perfectly flat and clear. If I can't get that then I'd rather leave the windows unglazed. Certainly you can't get anything clearer than no glazing at all.
Sorry if I seem to be very fussy regarding this, but like everyone, there are some things that just don't sit right with me, and poor glazing is one of them.
The passenger windows in McKeen cars open inward and hang on hooks just below the ceiling, so just imagine the passengers all want fresh air!
Hi Darth:
Yes, I have seen pictures of the interior with the windows in the open position. Guy (trainnut1250) posted some pictures earlier on in the thread.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/trainnut1250/150502_3652_zpsed75exzv.jpg
I tried to model the open frames but only a couple of the frames would fit properly, and in any case they are rather difficult to to see through the open windows. If I can get satisfactory glazing then I will re-do the open window frames because I think the reflection off of the smooth glazing will show better than just the empty brass rings. I know what I did wrong and it is an easy fix.
Apparently the hooks that held the open brass frames up to the ceiling failed on a few occasions with the result that several passengers received rather nasty blows to the head as the windows fell down.
You're in luck. BIPEE makes round glass coverslips that are 6mm and 0.13mm thick. 6mm is 0.236 inch, so should be a perfect fit since you say 0.25 inch is just a hair too tight.
These are available on Amazon for 12 bucks for 100 pieces (sorry don't have the link, but google it).
Joel!
WOW! Perfect solution!
I'll look them up on Amazon right now.
Thanks a whole bunch.
So close and yet so far!
I have just reviewed countless listings for the BIPEE 6 mm round cover slides and none of the vendors will ship to Canada. All of them seem to want to deal through Amazon. I couldn't find anyone who would ship direct.
Oh well, now that I know that they are out there I will just have to keep searching for a Canadian supplier.
Again, thanks for the idea.
What's wrong with going through Amazon, if it gets shipping to Canada? Or do none of them list on Amazon.ca?
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
hon30critter Joel So close and yet so far! I have just reviewed countless listings for the BIPEE 6 mm round cover slides and none of the vendors will ship to Canada. All of them seem to want to deal through Amazon. I couldn't find anyone who would ship direct. Oh well, now that I know that they are out there I will just have to keep searching for a Canadian supplier. Again, thanks for the idea. Dave
Just checked. Amazon does ship to Canada. I also checked with the usual scientific vendors I deal with and this size is not common and hard to come by, so you'll have to somehow go through Amazon if you'd like these.
Let us know what you decide.
Your project would really sparkle with all that glass bouncing back light when it goes by! (Couldn't resist, had to put in my 2 pennies)
Amazon does indeed ship to Canada. I buy things there regularly. The problem is that some items are not able to be shipped across the border for reasons I don't understand. When I bring up the cover slips the listing clearly states that "This item does not ship to Bradford, Ontario, Canada".
I tried googling the supplier BIPEE but all the links I found just put me back to Amazon. I tried to find another supplier, but like you said, 6 mm is not a common size. I spent the better part of 2 hours searching. I'll have another go tonight.
Thanks again for your help.
Very strange, glass cover slides of all things. There must be a Canadian supplier somewhere then.
Unless they just don't like your town. Or maybe like most Americans can't figure out where Ontario is.
Hi Randy
I did a little investigating and apparently the cover slips fall under a restriction preventing some optical materials from being shipped across the border, no doubt related to 911. I spent another 2 or 3 hours last night searching for a Canadian supplier but came up with zero.
What also bothers me is that the manufacturer BIPEE doesn't come up on a Google search. Their products do, including the 6 mm cover slips, but everything leads back to Amazon. I tried Amazon.ca and there were no results for the search for BIPEE 6 mm round cover slides. Very frustrating!
I'm hoping that American Model Builders i.e. LaserKit will get back to me with a reasonable price for acrylic windows. I am so fixated on this project that price has almost become a non-issue (please don't tell my wife!). I just spend upwards of $100 CDN for custom decals .
Oh well, I'm still really having a lot of fun with this project, and the bank balance seems to be holding its own.
Regards everyone.
rrinkerOr maybe like most Americans can't figure out where Ontario is.
Oh, puh-lease. Ontario is just twenty miles due east of downtown LA.
LOL.
As far as 6mm round pieces of glass not being able to be imported - wow, makes me wonder what kind of nefarious device I can construct with such things. Tiny round windows on an HO scale model are kind of the first thing that comes to mind. Real threat to security there. That's some scary stuff!
Dave - try Amazon (UK)
Dave, I have made little circular thingies with great success, using this method.
First take your 9/32 tube and put it in your dremel.
Run it on slow speed and sharpen the outer edge with a fine file.
Put the dremel with rod in your little dremel drill press. (if you have one)
Make a little box to hold slide cover, making sure the surface the slide sits on is really flat. Maybe use a piece of glass.
Put a drop of water along with some comet cleanser (or other abrasive)
Run the dremel (or whatever power tool you have) at the slowest speed possible while putting only the slightest downward pressure on the glass. Barely turning if possible.
If it works you should have a perfect fit for your windows. (I hope)
Edit; I forgot one thing. The little box that holds the slide. You need a block of styrene or something on top of the slide (that also sits in the box) with a hole drilled through it to hold the tube drill bit firmly in place so it doesn't wonder and snap the glass.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Might be able to use a similar method to make a punch that would work with the clear plastic, too. Good idea.
Randy, I know that model ship builders use the method on brass sheets to make hatch covers and such. I think a little practice would make one quite proficient at it.
Hi Brent:
That is an interesting method. I would have to invest in a Dremel drill press but that wouldn't be a bad thing. I'll keep your suggestion in mind if I can't find the 6mm cover slips.
Randy:
I have the right sized steel punch, although it could probably be sharper, but I haven't been able to cut perfectly round discs because of the fracturing in the styrene at the cut line.
Thanks for the ideas.
Dave, you could probably do it on the horizontal byy putting the dremel on a block of wood and sliding along a bench top. The drill speed is the critical factor IMO.
I think if the 'punch' were chucked and spinning, it wouldn;t shatter the plastic, but rather drill through it. Might be slow going. Also, how is what you have backed up? If it's basically a paper punch, there's probably not enough support. If you made a sharpened piece of the brass tubing, and used a piece of flat hard wood or metal like a small anvil, it may punch clean without cracking the plastic. You may have to resharpen the tube a few times, especially if using a metal anvil, the soft brass will quickly dull.
Hi Randy:
I agree that if the punch were spinning it would likely cut cleanly through the plastic, using the abrasive of course. I'm going to see what I can do with the steel punch using it in a similar manner.
As far as what I have used as a backing surface, I first did it on my cutting mat but the edges were fractured enough that the discs were unusable. I then tried a piece of oak and the results were terrible. The punch just pushed the styrene into the wood. I have been reluctant to try it on a steel surface because I fear it would quickly dull the punch, but I will give it a try.
I haven't heard back from American Model Builders yet, but I'm hoping they can do what I want for a reasonable price.
hon30critter Hi Joel: Amazon does indeed ship to Canada. I buy things there regularly. The problem is that some items are not able to be shipped across the border for reasons I don't understand. When I bring up the cover slips the listing clearly states that "This item does not ship to Bradford, Ontario, Canada". I tried googling the supplier BIPEE but all the links I found just put me back to Amazon. I tried to find another supplier, but like you said, 6 mm is not a common size. I spent the better part of 2 hours searching. I'll have another go tonight. Thanks again for your help. Dave
I just checked eBay and the 6 mm coverslips are available. Search "6 mm cover glass" to find it.
Joel!!!!!
Thank you, thank you, thank you for your perseverence!!!
Its amazing what using the right words can do for a search! I just ordered them, and just to add some shine to my bald head, they were $5.00 cheaper than the Amazon listings.
I owe you a beer, or three!
I really appreciate your help with this project!
hon30critterThe problem is that some items are not able to be shipped across the border for reasons I don't understand. When I bring up the cover slips the listing clearly states that "This item does not ship to Bradford, Ontario, Canada".
IN Amazon, there are Amazon direct items, like new books, and Amazon dealers or "shops" who are independant contractors. IN the case of your glass item, it probably comes from an Amazon shop that is one of the same sources that you found that do not ship to Canada. Moot point now that you have found it on EBay
No problem. Glad I could help a fellow modeler. Happy glazing!
Joel:
I really think the clear flat glazing will make the windows 'pop'. I'll have to do some experimentation to figure out how to install them cleanly with no glue buildup around the edges.
Thanks again,
All the best,
It sounds as if you've solved the issue with the window glass, but if you need a back-up plan, these may work. The 1/4" punch has an integral centre point, but most of the other punches in the set have had it removed and I'm not averse to altering this one in the same manner.
The one on the left was punched from .005" styrene, while the one in the centre was punched from the same material but with a piece of .018" aluminum over it, and the one on the right with the aluminum beneath it. The latter arrangement seems to give the cleanest cut:
...and the punch used:
Wayne
Thanks for your efforts!
I had the same problem when trying to remove the styrene discs from my manual punch. The force required caused the same sort of milky deformation in the center of the discs. If I punched about a dozen discs without removing them individually then I could get 4 or 5 that weren't deformed, but the edges were still fractured enough to render them unacceptable. If the cover slip glass fits it will be a perfect solution.
By the way, for all of you who were cringing at the bright coloured clothing on the passengers, I agree! They are totally out of place for 1907. Fortunately I glued them in place with Micro Krystal Klear so they pop out quite easily. They will be repainted in appropriately drab colours.
doctorwayne ...and the punch used: Wayne
Holy Smokes Wayne. I have boxes of tools from my Grandfather and Great Grandfather. I am sure there is one of those punch kits in one of them. I had better find it and move it to the train room workshop. I never looked at it that closely and thought it was a rivet press.
Sorry Dave! Back to the continuing story of the great Mckeen kit slayer.
Dave, the only reason the discs are milky-looking in the centre is due to the centre point on the punch. Most of the other size punches have already had the point removed. I've used them to punch porthole windows for F- and E-units, and headlight lenses for various steam and diesel locomotives, with clean edges and no milkiness. The punched discs drop out of the die quite readily, as the hole widens below the stroke of the punch. The changeable die is also adjustable for height within the jaws: for thin material, it works best turned up, while thicker material requires a lower position. It can punch 14 gauge (.075") steel, and thicker sheets of aluminum, brass, copper, and plastic.
If for some reason the glass cover slips don't work I will get back to you.
Thanks again!
I got the 6mm microscope coverslips a couple of days ago and I have decided not to use them for a couple of reasons.
First, unfortunately they are a bit smaller than the diameter of the brass window frames. Gluing them in place with Microscale Krystal Klear left a lot of visible distortion around the edges of the glass where the glue was filling the gap. The glue wasn't perfectly smooth, and the glue line made the windows look smaller then they actually are.
Also, getting all of the glass on exactly the same plane was impossible so the reflection off the glass wasn't consistent. It made some of the windows look crooked.
Finally, handling the glass was difficult. I have one of those suction cup parts holders on order which would make things easier but the uneven glue around the edges of the glass and the inability to get all the glass lined up parallel causes me to reject glazing the round windows.
The other reason for not glazing the round windows is that in every picture that I have seen of the different versions of the motor car the round windows are open. I still intend to glaze the cab front windows. I have some Ngineering real glass window material that I have cut to the exact size. Hopefully the glue lines won't show if the fit is tight.
Doctorwayne - thank you for your offer to punch out acrylic windows but I think I'm going to go for the fresh air look.
Next step is the decals which I'm still waiting on. Then I will touch up the paint on the frame and trucks where handling has taken a toll, add the final few exterior details and then clear coat. Cab windows will go in last so the clear coat doesn't mess them up.
Stay tuned!
Darn! It's unfortunate the glass slips did not do the trick.
I just got an e-mail from Scott Wright who is doing the custom decals. He had surgery a month ago and should have been up and about by now. Unfortunately his surgeon messed up and he is going to be in the hospital for at least another two months trying to recover from the screwup.
Bottom line is that the McKeen Motor Car project will be relegated to the back burner until further notice. I am not going to cancel the order.
A long overdue update:
Well, after waiting patiently for the custom decals to be shipped, I decided to cancel the order. I had been promised that the decals would be in the mail in mid January.
It is amazing what action a threatened loss of revenue can produce! I sent the cancellation e-mail on Sunday and lo and behold I received a response on Monday that the decals had been mailed Monday morning!!!! However, I was informed that the shipping cost was now $22.00 USD!?! That much for an 8 1/2" x 11" envelope from the US to Canada??? That's $30.00 Cdn!!!
Hopefully they will be of decent quality and I can have the motor car finished in short order, but I have a bad taste in my mouth. If they are not of decent quality I will ask for my money back.
(Rant...rant...rant...!)
Regards. Thanks for listening.
I really hope the quality of his work is superior to his business practices but I won't be suprised if it is not. I'm not holding my breath.
In fairness, he has had a hard time of it recently but I'm a little ticked when he made a delivery promise in January and didn't follow through until I asked to cancel the order.
hon30critter I'm not holding my breath.
I am an optimist too. I'm optimistic that if the first decal order isn't up to snuff then the second will be. I will ignore the cost if I have to buy the second set. The combined costs will be ridiculous!
"Say no more....say no more".
That sounds just a wee bit excessive on the postage there. Whenever I've ordered decals online, they've xome in a regular first class envelope sandwiched between two pieces of cardboard so they don't get mangled in the sorter. That usually works out to just above the standard First Class stamp so you end up throwing 2 stamps on it. Just for grins I calculated potage to London, Ontario. I used a large envelop (the 8x10 kind) and said 8 ounces, which is WAY more than a couple sheets of decals and two pieces of cardboard would weigh. If I don't check the "does not bend easily" option, it's $3.02 for First Class. If I do check the box, it's $9.50. Priority and Express options are $25 and up. But there are other options as well.
I finally received the decals from Solidesign today! Its only taken six months.
My initial impression is that they won't work very well because they don't have a white base. They are simply printed in yellow. I'm going to make up a test sheet painted the same as the Motor Car and then apply one of the decals to see if they show up properly on the CP Maroon paint.
Please be patient. My father-in-law has just been diagnosed with terminal liver cancer. He has opted to not undergo any further procedures so the next two or three weeks are going to be a bit tough.
Regards.
Sorry to hear of your Father in-law Dave. We also have a senior member of our family that I am very fond of decide to move on as well after a return of cancer. My thoughts are with you, your wife and family at this time.
Take care.
That´s not good news!
Our thoughts are with you and your family!
Thanks everyone for the kind thoughts. Very much appreciated.
Brent, sorry to hear that you are in the same boat.
OK, the car is finally finished!!! The only future change might be to install sound if a suitable sound file ever becomes available.
Here are some pictures:
The decals worked out better than I expected when I first saw them. They aren't quite as opaque as I would have liked but I'm splitting hairs.
I have deviated from the prototype in one respect in that the original had the roof painted in a salmon colour. It really didn't appeal to me so I didn't model it.
As I said earlier I decided to not install glass in the round windows, but I did put it in the cab windows. That was fussy work!
Photos don't lie! I can see a couple of spots where I will have to do some touch up inside the doors.
Sincere thanks to everyone who helped along the way!!
Great looking results, Dave. Very nicely-done.
Thanks Wayne!
Its a bit rough in places but I'm happy with the results.
hon30critterIts a bit rough in places
Thanks Bear!
Yes, I tend to be very critical of my own work but that's what motivates me to do better the next time. One of the things that I'm not happy with on the model is the slight orange peel effect left by the Testors Glosscote. Like other Testors spray paints the spray is way too heavy. If you spray too close you will have runs, and if you back off and do quick passes it sets before it flows out smooth.
I'm going to explore other gloss finishes. Any suggestions anyone?
For Glosscote, I collect it in a bottle by spraying from the can into a large dia soda straw (donated by McDonalds). Then I can spray with my air brush.
If you want to do cans, take a look at Krylon Gloss Acrylic
Great work on the car! One of the decoder used to have a Galloping Goose sound decoder. That would be a gasoline engine.
It turned out great!! Nice to see you finish the project. I have a ton of unfinished projects in the train room, nice to see some one carry it through to the end.
Hi George:
Thanks for the idea on airbrushing Testors Glosscote.
I have thought about using a Galloping Goose sound file for the McKeen car but I just don't think it would be appropriate. The McKeen engine was huge! It had to be 5 or 6 feet tall. I doubt that the Galloping Goose automobile based engines would sound anything like the McKeen. Unfortunately none of the original McKeen motors survived. Apparently they were so unreliable that they were all scrapped. There are several references to them having to be towed back to the shop regularly.
https://ca.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=McKeen+Motor+Car+engine+pictures&hspart=rogers&hsimp=yhs-rogers_001&type=rogers_pc_homerun_portal
I'm sure there must have been a lot of mechanical clatter just like the Galloping Goose engines, but judging by the sheer size of the McKeen engines they must have sounded pretty throaty too which the Galloping Goose engines do not.
There I go being fussy again!
Thanks Guy!
I can't count the number of projects that are either unstarted or unfinished that I have in stock. I do have to say that I have pretty much stopped myself from buying more stuff on eBay because I do have so many projects on hand. I got a little upset with myself for acquiring so many projects without actually working on them. I think I had fallen into a rut where I justified my purchases by thinking I was actually doing some modeling by buying them. Now I have finally decided to get my rear end in gear, both with the modelling projects and with building the layout.
Way to go Dave, looks great. I have followed this project more closely than most and I have really enjoyed tagging along. What do we get to do next??????
Nice job, Dave!
That's a stunningly beautiful piece of equipment. Good show!
My thoughts are with your family, too, at this difficult time.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Brent, Chuck and Mike
Both Testors Glosscote and Dullcote are available in bottles. I have two sizes, a square bottle containing 1¾oz.and a round bottle containing 29.5ml. For airbrushing, thin with ordinary lacquer thinner. Either will give you better mileage than a spray can, and, by mixing the two in varying proportions, you can create various semi-gloss mixtures, too.
Thanks for the Testors information Wayne.
In fairness to Solidesign Custom Decals, I should clarify that the $22.00 Priority Mail charge was absorbed by the company. Scott only charged me for First Class Mail ($8.00). When I posted earlier about the mailing costs I didn't realize that he had footed the extra $.
I also got an apology from him today for the decals taking so long.