OK, I seem to have the insert image thing cleared up but I have to use FireFox instead of IE.
Here is the Walthers NYC 20th Century Limited observation car with the unlighted home made drumhead.
Illuminated with added marker lights (red LED plus fiber optics).
I would have paid extra for Walthers to have included these features in the original car.
I have photos of my Walthers observation car 20th Century Limited drumhead illuminated but all of a sudden the Post Reply editing box no longer contains icons to insert images or videos. Anyone know what gives? Thanks.
I realize I'm quite late to this conversation but thought I'd add something. Some problems with radius have to do with easements in the curves. If you go from a straight section right into 24R there is a severe change in direction for the cars and can cause derailments and uncoupling. If you ease into the curve there won't be sutch a jarring movement for your rolling stock.
hdtvnutI have repeatedly brought up wanting to have lighted drumheads to Walthers reps, but they aren't listening. Tomar for those with a masochistic bent,
I tried Tomar's 20th Century Limited drumhead but it was too square. The actual 20th drumhead is rectangular as you can see from my avatar. Also didn't like the color and it was nearly impossible to read when not lighted. Through trial and error I found that I could produce a correct size image on the computer and attach the printer paper cutout to a piece of clear styrene with CA. The CA made the paper translucent even after it dried. The addition of a back lit blue LED gave me the look I was hoping for. Plus, you can make out the drumhead even when it is not lighted. I'll try to get a picture posted soon.
hdtvnutThe best lighting I've seen so far is in MTH cars (includes drumheads). The trucks supply power, yet are very free-rolling, and super caps prevent flicker.
I can't say that I was ever a big supporter of MTH but when they came out with the 1938 Century and I could finally have appropriate cars to hang on the rear of the Broadway streamlined Hudson, and after reading a review of the cars here by Tom Stage I jumped in and bought a set, and additional cars to make up a fifteen car train and then picked up a 13 car Empire State Express to boot!
I was VERY impressed with what MTH produced! Not to mention the superb lighting but small details like table lamps and appropriate colors for the interior seats and partitions, not just the ivory/biege of the Walthers lightweights.
I have a dozen or so of the Rapido cars with the battery lights, mine are a sickly pea green LED and the battery thing is pretty useless. Rapido's recent offerings are better, with track pick-up and beautifully done interiors. Coach seats with the antimacassars painted on, etched glass partitions and beautifully done underbody details. I have one of the Park series dome-observations that has a very nicely lit tail sign. It is properly diffused so there isn't a "hot spot" in the center like a straight LED would make.
Just like with sound decoders, wouldn't it be nice if passenger car manufacturers could get it together and finally get ALL the details correct.
Oh, and another thing about the MTH cars. It's a cinch to open them up to access the interior as opposed to the Walthers "system."
Still, I'm sure glad we have the variety of choices today over what was out there even just ten years ago.
[edit] I forgot to include the C-Z cars from Broadway Limited, they are right up there with MTH, Rapido and recent Walthers but I don't expect anything new from them anytime soon
Ed
I have repeatedly brought up wanting to have lighted drumheads to Walthers reps, but they aren't listening. Tomar for those with a masochistic bent,
I have O-B cars as well, and had other Rapido cars, and it's true they have overhead lighting. But considering how annoying buying and changing batteries is, imagine the first time you forget and leave a consist turned on long enough to kill, say, 16 to 20 batteries at once. Additionally, the holders are not the greatest, and get distorted and flaky after awhile. Many ops might just decide the heck with the whole idea like I did; sounded good but not user-friendly. The best lighting I've seen so far is in MTH cars (includes drumheads). The trucks supply power, yet are very free-rolling, and super caps prevent flicker.
Hal
One thing no one has talked about is the handrails. The earlier limited editions, including the 20th Century Limited, had handrails, grab irons, etc. that the modeler had to install. It took me 2 winters to get that done on the entire train plus 2 additional cars. Man was I mad when they started factory installing the handrails after the 20th Century Limited.
There is one other thing to add when comparing Walthers vs the competition. I recently bought a set of Rapido's Osgood Bradley coaches in New Haven paint for about the same price as the Walthers cars. The difference was that the Rapido cars came with their Easy Peasy lighting system included. The Walthers cars need the additional purchase of their lighting system. Even then, I had to build and light my own drumhead to get that classic 20th Century Limited look as per my Avatar.
My camera equipment and skills are basic but here goes. BTW, the Hickory Creek has operating marker lights (red led plus fiber optics) and the drumhead is handmade with a blue led backlight. Sorry, these are static pictures with the power off.
The Dining car. Complete with "flowers" on the table.
nycmodel I concur with CAZEPHYR about the metal contact points for the lighting connections. I had to file down one or two to get the trucks to sit on the tracks evenly. My main complaint about the Walthers passenger cars is getting the %$#! roof off. I lost count of how many of those plastic roof clips I broke off and had to CA back on. Having said that there is nothing nicer than watching my 1948 20th Century Limited with Walthers cars fully lighted with interior details and passengers (I added).
I concur with CAZEPHYR about the metal contact points for the lighting connections. I had to file down one or two to get the trucks to sit on the tracks evenly. My main complaint about the Walthers passenger cars is getting the %$#! roof off. I lost count of how many of those plastic roof clips I broke off and had to CA back on. Having said that there is nothing nicer than watching my 1948 20th Century Limited with Walthers cars fully lighted with interior details and passengers (I added).
Thanks. Post some pictures of the 20th Century train when you get time. That is a nice train. I did the El Cap two years ago when they finally got the rest of the cars out to us. Another factor to good running relies on the diaphragms working correctly. If they are touching and actually compressing, it can be a problem on turnouts and tight curves.
The electrical pickup is a problem with some of the cars and any 85' foot car is going to be pushing the envelope. I noticed Selector said his were much better on 26" radius. Manufacturers like to quote lower radius for their products so they can sell more, but they probably will start giving problems if any little thing is not totally correct.
The pictures below show some of the detail I added to the cars. Do they run on tight curves, absolutely not!!!!! A close friend has the basic same 11 car train and all of his cars needed the contacts reworked to allow it to run past #6 turnouts.
Larry
It was mentioned above, but you should make sure diaphragms are not pressing on each other enough to push one car off. The Walther diaphragm springs are too strong to depress much in sharp curves, relative to the weight of the car ends, and the solutions are: weaken the springs, use longer couplers, add more weight, or get more flexible diaphragms. Always test backing the consist on the tightest curves, since this is much more demanding of diaphragms/couplers than going forward.
IMHO, operators planning to use 80/85 ft cars are definitely better off to go with 28" or larger radii, 36" or more in stub yards. Even that can cause derailments during backing if the cars are not otherwise well tuned. Extra weight in headend cars may be helpful with longer consists.
Cars such as SP Daylight having full width diaphragms with adequate flexibility can have another problem: if the contacting surfaces are not smooth enough, the diaphragms can snag on each other. I had to sand some diaphragm surfaces of cars I was trying to close-couple.
I don't like the Walther 6-wheel trucks much, because with both axle and side frame being metal, they tend not to roll all that well, even with machining and lubrication. I exchanged many of them for Branchline truck kits (nylon bearings), with dramatic (50-70 %) decrease in tractive effort needed. But this requires a workaround if track-powered lighting is desired.
CTValleyRR Don't have any, never will. But reading through this thread, something strikes me: I've always used the 2.5x minimum rule, that is, a curve's diameter should never be less than 2-1/2 times the length of the longest stock to be driven through them. For a 12" long car, that's 30 inches, and at least a #10 turnout. Minimum radius, as advertised by a manufacturer, is just that: the car will take this curve individually (not necessarily in consist), without derailing every time. Want good cornering performance: at least 3x radius. Prototypical appeaeance? 4×. Consistent coupling / uncoupling? Try 5x.
Don't have any, never will. But reading through this thread, something strikes me: I've always used the 2.5x minimum rule, that is, a curve's diameter should never be less than 2-1/2 times the length of the longest stock to be driven through them. For a 12" long car, that's 30 inches, and at least a #10 turnout.
Minimum radius, as advertised by a manufacturer, is just that: the car will take this curve individually (not necessarily in consist), without derailing every time. Want good cornering performance: at least 3x radius. Prototypical appeaeance? 4×. Consistent coupling / uncoupling? Try 5x.
Rich
Alton Junction
Good luck getting them to run.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Mark, the sideframes are metal, screwed to the plastic insulating bolster, where are you removing plastic? Most of my isues have been "twisted" trucks and cocked pan head screws that don't ride properly or sqarely on the contact strips. Tight boster screws not allowing sufficient truck movement.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
I have cured a lot of derailment problems just by adding weight. NMRA standards are just guidelines. A heavier car is less likely to derail than a light car. If you've tried all the other remedies, try adding some weight.
The biggest problem I have seen has been with the dome car. 1. The truck hits the rear corners of the coupler box. Solution: file down the corners of the coupler box. 2. The car body rides too low on the trucks. Solution: cut a 1 inch or so piece of 14 g solid core wire, remove the insulation and bend into a donut "washer" with about 1/4 " inside diameter or outside diameter of about 1/2". Place the washer between the bolster nub and the truck. 3: Install the screw, but do not tighten down. This will allow some slop for the truck to rise and fall over dips and high areas of the track. Also, put a small drop of oil on the ends of the wheel axles, populate with 1/100 scale people (from China via ebay). Add lighting board from SBS4DCC.com. Attach the light board to the interior power tabs using a slightly widened rail joiner, solder a short wire to the joiner and attach to the light board. While I have not needed to do this, consider putting a smaller diameter wheelset (33") in the center axle of the 6 wheel truck.
Using the 3 modifications above, has allowed permitted the dome car to run well on our club layout where the track is far less that perfect. We avoid 24" radius curves on our layout and use primarily 28 to 30" radius curves.
I've never rated Walthers passenger cars very high so it would be hard for me to say they are overrated. They look nice like a high end car should but operationally they are quite poor. For what they charge, it is inexcusable that a Walthers RTR passenger car can't negotiate a Walthers #7 curved turnout flawlessly right out of the box. I've had the same problem with #8 curved turnouts. It's only the Walthers cars that give me trouble. A number of them are on the shelf because I can't get them to operate reliably.
On 6 wheel trucks sometimes the center axle hole in the side frame is not far enough up toward the top of the truck. This causes the truck to rock from end to end on the center axle, lifting the front or back wheels enough to derail. Removing some plastic from the top of the hole has solved the problem for me.
Mark Vinski
No I'm bellyaching because I bought six of them (count em 6) for two different roads prior to layout construction. Pretty much destroyed the value of one. I guess the others will end up on Ebay aka selldajunkoff Wayne
Ditto everything Kyle says... and
The conversation here primarily focuses on the 24" radius but along with the radius your trackwork has to be DEAD FLAT!
As mentioned previously nearly all the Walthers cars use the round-head screws to ride on contact strips ant these contact strips are supposed to flex a bit.
I have found quite a few cases where there is not enough axial pivot to allow the truck to "dip" into a low spot or ride over a high spot without affecting the truck on the other end.
Remember the golden rule of car/truck geometry? The three legged stool. At least one truck has to have enough flexibility to allow for low/high rail pitch.
On the Super Dome the rigidity is especially pronounced because of those outside swing hangers that I mentioned in my previous post.
Sometimes it helps to set the car on a mirror if you have one big enough or at least a piece of glass and try to observe each wheel using a small probe to look for any stiffness. If you lift one wheel and you see the wheels lifting at the other end of the car you don't have enough "flex" allowance.
Good Luck, Ed
Have you run them on a precise 24" radius on a level surface, not a curve that you have made with flex track? I bet you Walthers has tested those cars an knows they will work on 24" radius curves when the trackwork is ideal. Think of it like MPG for cars, very few cars achieve their MPG rating in the real world.
Athearn usually has a minimum radius and a recommended radius. I have SD70ACes that will handle a 18" radius curve if it is the Bachman EZ track in a level surface. It is close but they work with normal (50' boxcars, 3 bay covered hoppers, etc) sized rolling stock coupled next to them. But it is on the edge. Anytime you have something operating close to its limits, you can easily exceed that limit. A curve that is actually 17.5" and not level can easily cause the SD70ACes to derail.
I wouldn't get on Walthers about their advertising because most likely your track isn't perfect. In ideal conditions the passenger cars will almost always run as advertised. In the manufacturing process, there are those pieces that aren't perfect and may have a minor flaw, but usually nothing a little tuning/fixing can't solve.
I would try to make the track work flawless for the 24" radius curves. That would most likely solve any and all problems.
You're having trouble with ONE car in ONE spot and you're bellyaching about "truth in advertising?"This is why manufacturers' reps at train shows drink heavily.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
The cars aren't overrated. They're pretty good. Their ability to operate through tight curves is definitely overrated.
Tom
I'm going to have to go with the 24 inche radius is probably your problem. Yes, I understand Walthers "says" they will run on that as a minimum, but think of a model railroad like you computer game. Run it on the minimum memory and video card and you will not be happy either. It's generally wisest to always plan on some slop factor and going significantly above the minimum for good performance. I'd say 28-inches is probably the minimum thats best for long cars such as passenger cars and 89' freight cars, and even then they won't look very good.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I have been building my passenger car roster with Walther's heavyweights and streamlined (NYC) with great sucess. I have 30-36" curves (except one that is 28") and haven't had any problems right out of the box, which I wouldn't expect (even with the diaphrams, which look great!). I really love the Walthers cars and they are a great improvement over the older ones, Rivarossi and Athearn. I do have a set of Athearn RTR steamliners that I replaced wheels with metal ones and body mounted Kadees, which now run pretty good, but not as good as the Walther's. I must have gotten the good ones!
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
The first thing I did was to replace the couplers with Kadee's extended shank coupler. Those worked wonders regarding derailments. I also performed some of the mods mentioned above which helped.
Our RR club has 36" minimum radius on all curves and I discovered many of the derailments were just caused by the use of too much speed. I the train looks like it is about right speed wise, it is probably moving too fast.
Also, the cars flow well through #8 turnouts and use of any smaller turnouts, down to a #6 requires the train speed be reduced quite a bit.
Don't give up on the puppies, those cars are very nice!
I agree with everything that everyone has already said about the Walthers passenger cars.
I have lots of them, and I would offer these comments.
24" radius curves are too tight for reliable performance of 85' 6-axle passenger cars. I couldn't run them reliably on my old layout with 22" and 24" radius curves. My current layout has 30" and 32" radius curves, and those cars can handle those radii. A big part of the problem is the 6-axle trucks. 4-axle trucks are better suited to tighter radius curves.
Track work in another big part of the problem. Those big multi-axle passenger cars can be very finicky if the track isn't perfectly level. That includes being certain that the opposing rails are at the same height. Curved turnouts demand special attention.
Beyond track work and wider radius, all of the other things mentioned in this thread are important including longer couplers, oil on axle points, etc.
AHA! Only one car on one curve. That should make solving the problem MUCH easier.
I think the first thing I would try would be to switch one of the trucks from the problem car with a truck fron a non problem car, either front for front or rear for rear. Then see what happens. If nothing (no derailment) then maybe your problem is solved. Leave everyting alone and run them for a while. Still OK? Then indeed your problem is solved.
If you get a derailment, on which car--the one that has always derailed or the one that received the not suspect truck? If it is the car that has always derailed then I would start to suspect the track. Check the guage throuhout the curve. Check for a kink or any variation in the radius of the curve. You may need something like the appropriate sized ribbon rail to test this.
If it is the car with the suspect truck, check it for guage, squareness (is there such a word?), wheel wobble, bolster screw and anything else you can think of. With diligence (after your couch time) you will be able to find the problem and fix it.