I'm having some problems with Walthers superdome coaches, okay alot of problems I have a 25' x 17' layout I'm building and if I can get one to make two circuts without derailing I'm doing well. My minimum radius on the passenger line is 24" which they boast these cars will run on. They don't seem to like curved turnouts (Walthers #7) at all. Things I've done so far that haven't worked. 1 checked my trackwork. 2 replaced the wheels with Intermountain 36" wheels. 3 Trimmed away part of the frame to allow the trucks to turn tighter. 4 Trimmed off the brake shoes where they were dragging on the underbody. 5 Installed a longer shank Kadee coupler. Am I missing something here? At 60 bucks a pop you shouldn't have to do ANYTHING to these coaches. I don't care for the wheels. The couplers are Kadee wanabees. I'm not having problems with the 4 axle coaches, but I have a shelf full of Milwaukee Road Heavyweights which I'm begging to feel is money best spent elsewhere. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Wayne
I have 12 Walthers heavyweights with 3 axle trucks and they are now to the place where they run good on our club layout which is far from perfect. I have done most of the things you mentioned except for replacing the wheels. On the wheels you need to also check the gauge. I have found that cars seem to run best if the wheels and the NMRA gauge have a little slop. In other words, the wheels should fall in the middle of the gauge slots. If the wheels are at the widest the gauge allows, it might explain the problem with the curved turnout.
Besides what you have mentioned, I have loosed the truck screw so that there is a little more freedom of truck movement. I have slightly filed the corner of some of the trucks so that they do not bump on the back of the stairs. I then painted the metal on the filed corners to match the rest of the trucks.
I discovered that not every car needs every one of the tweaks that have been mentioned.
24" min R may not be quite wide enough, although may be possible. I don't have those particular cars. But with other Walthers cars, I've encountered the screw heads on top of the truck that contact the contact strips that carry electricity up to lighting having raised burrs from tightening. Take a file and smooth them as they can hang up instead of sliding when the truck pivots.
Before you do that, you may want to take the trucks off and "glass" them -- put them on a plate of glass, then use a sheet of paper to try to slip its edge under each wheel. The screws I referred to above also set the truck square. You may have to loosen one or more to allow the truck to settle until it's square on all 6 ( or all 4) wheels so that the paper won't slide under any. Tighten, do the "burr check" I mentioned above then reassemble.
On your track, have you checked for side to side level? That could be another factor, especially around curves.
When the term "minimum radius" is used, operating right at the bleeding edge can be iffy with any piece of rolling stock. Best to allow a little slack, i.e. better to run them on something like 28" if they are rated at 24" minimum. There is enough variance in layout curves and assemebly tolerances that you can expect problems until everything is adjusted just right. Keep at it, they should eventually go unless they're listed as something wider than 24" min R. Then you're on your own.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Those cars are monsters!
I have a roster of just under 200 Walther's passenger cars. I love 'em!
Before Walthers started producing the current generation of passenger cars beginning around 1995 or so, modelers pretty much had Rivarossi, Con-Cor and IHC. There were the Athearn 60 footers, a few Roundhouse and E&B Valley kits and possibly a few others.
I'm currently recieving shipments of the latest Capitol Limited cars and they look marvelous!
Other than lubing the axel ends and tightening or otherwise adjusting the bolster screw, and for a time they were using a throw-away Mc Henry coupler so you HAD to exchange that for a Kadee. Otherwise I don't have any problems with any of the cars, even the big Amtrak Superliners. I have never had to replace any of the Walthers wheelsets.
I have one Milwaukee Super Dome and the truck-to-carbody clearances are very close. Of course, if a manufacturer takes licence to raise the bolster or clear away underbody details then a whole raft of modelers cry about not being "true" to the prototype and too toy-like! (Look at the threads on some forums about the recent Bowser Alco C-636 fuel tank/truck sideframe/body clearance!)
One of the unique features of the Super Domes were their extreme weight requiring that massive three axel truck that Walthers has reproduced extremely well. However the outside swing hangers are designed to support the carbody in such a way that there is very little clearance between the truck bolsters and the side sill of the car.
All I can suggest to you would be to use a methodical approach to locating the exact cause of your derailments using the tried-and-true methods of repeating the movements and determining if it is the trackwork or the car itself causing the problems.
You have already made several modifications that might have served to improve the conditions (or not?) but perhaps you might try placing a fiber washer to raise the carbody to allow the truck to have more lateral sway since it actually rests on 2 of the four sideframe screws that contact the lighting strips. Then you would have to use a Kadee coupler with an off-set head to compensate for the raised car floor.
Keep experimenting! Ed
I've got a set of Rivarossi cars that are advertised to run on 18 inch radius curve. The do. However, they do not run on 17 3/4 inch curves. For these long cars, there's no tolerance on the downside of the allowed radius.
The Rivarossis have swing coupler mounts, that is, the coupler box mounts to another mechanism that swings further from side to side.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Any of the 80 to 85' scale cars need large curves and the 24" radius is tight for this type of car. One problem with the Walthers cars I have is the electrical pick up for the lights. Those metal contacts points can cause derailments. That might be your problem if your cars have that type of electric pickups.
CZ
Hi, Thanks for all the replies thus far. I've pretty much surrendered to the coach for the time being Alot of good ideas and feedback perhaps one day after a couple of I'll give it another shot. It's only one curve and one coach. I will be the first to agree that the Walthers coaches are far better than any of their predecessors. One last thing I tried was removing the center axle didn't help much. I'm just a little miffed at Walthers for saying something like 24" radius when in fact should be closer to 28". Maybe I would have designed things differently. By the way my wife sez she could have had a darn nice waffle iron for the price of that coach. Wayne
I have several types of the Walthers longer passenger cars, including the heavyweights with six axles. Although advertised for 24" curves, I have never had good luck with them under 26". Too many niggling problems with pivot clearances, and also the diaphragms can cause derailments as you approach the realistic minimum radius.
Persistence, determination, and some ingenuity help a lot. You must find a location that reliably derails any two cars, and then repeat trials with good light both in front and behind the offending truck(s). Do slow runs until you see the derailment beginning to take place. If the diaphragms are not the problem where they are pinched together, then look for car lift at the affected end, and also for wheel/axle lift. That place is simply too tight. It could be that the one truck can't pivot any more, and that could be from unintended contact at the pivot, on the pickups if the car has them, or on screws holding the truck outer frame elements. Could also be a guage problem if a flange is being lifted by a guard rail near a frog, for example.
The simplest fix is broader curves, assuming wheel gauge is good and that a coupler hook isn't snagging.
AHA! Only one car on one curve. That should make solving the problem MUCH easier.
I think the first thing I would try would be to switch one of the trucks from the problem car with a truck fron a non problem car, either front for front or rear for rear. Then see what happens. If nothing (no derailment) then maybe your problem is solved. Leave everyting alone and run them for a while. Still OK? Then indeed your problem is solved.
If you get a derailment, on which car--the one that has always derailed or the one that received the not suspect truck? If it is the car that has always derailed then I would start to suspect the track. Check the guage throuhout the curve. Check for a kink or any variation in the radius of the curve. You may need something like the appropriate sized ribbon rail to test this.
If it is the car with the suspect truck, check it for guage, squareness (is there such a word?), wheel wobble, bolster screw and anything else you can think of. With diligence (after your couch time) you will be able to find the problem and fix it.
I agree with everything that everyone has already said about the Walthers passenger cars.
I have lots of them, and I would offer these comments.
24" radius curves are too tight for reliable performance of 85' 6-axle passenger cars. I couldn't run them reliably on my old layout with 22" and 24" radius curves. My current layout has 30" and 32" radius curves, and those cars can handle those radii. A big part of the problem is the 6-axle trucks. 4-axle trucks are better suited to tighter radius curves.
Track work in another big part of the problem. Those big multi-axle passenger cars can be very finicky if the track isn't perfectly level. That includes being certain that the opposing rails are at the same height. Curved turnouts demand special attention.
Beyond track work and wider radius, all of the other things mentioned in this thread are important including longer couplers, oil on axle points, etc.
Rich
Alton Junction
I concur with CAZEPHYR about the metal contact points for the lighting connections. I had to file down one or two to get the trucks to sit on the tracks evenly. My main complaint about the Walthers passenger cars is getting the %$#! roof off. I lost count of how many of those plastic roof clips I broke off and had to CA back on. Having said that there is nothing nicer than watching my 1948 20th Century Limited with Walthers cars fully lighted with interior details and passengers (I added).
The first thing I did was to replace the couplers with Kadee's extended shank coupler. Those worked wonders regarding derailments. I also performed some of the mods mentioned above which helped.
Our RR club has 36" minimum radius on all curves and I discovered many of the derailments were just caused by the use of too much speed. I the train looks like it is about right speed wise, it is probably moving too fast.
Also, the cars flow well through #8 turnouts and use of any smaller turnouts, down to a #6 requires the train speed be reduced quite a bit.
Don't give up on the puppies, those cars are very nice!
I have been building my passenger car roster with Walther's heavyweights and streamlined (NYC) with great sucess. I have 30-36" curves (except one that is 28") and haven't had any problems right out of the box, which I wouldn't expect (even with the diaphrams, which look great!). I really love the Walthers cars and they are a great improvement over the older ones, Rivarossi and Athearn. I do have a set of Athearn RTR steamliners that I replaced wheels with metal ones and body mounted Kadees, which now run pretty good, but not as good as the Walther's. I must have gotten the good ones!
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
I'm going to have to go with the 24 inche radius is probably your problem. Yes, I understand Walthers "says" they will run on that as a minimum, but think of a model railroad like you computer game. Run it on the minimum memory and video card and you will not be happy either. It's generally wisest to always plan on some slop factor and going significantly above the minimum for good performance. I'd say 28-inches is probably the minimum thats best for long cars such as passenger cars and 89' freight cars, and even then they won't look very good.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
The cars aren't overrated. They're pretty good. Their ability to operate through tight curves is definitely overrated.
Tom
You're having trouble with ONE car in ONE spot and you're bellyaching about "truth in advertising?"This is why manufacturers' reps at train shows drink heavily.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Have you run them on a precise 24" radius on a level surface, not a curve that you have made with flex track? I bet you Walthers has tested those cars an knows they will work on 24" radius curves when the trackwork is ideal. Think of it like MPG for cars, very few cars achieve their MPG rating in the real world.
Athearn usually has a minimum radius and a recommended radius. I have SD70ACes that will handle a 18" radius curve if it is the Bachman EZ track in a level surface. It is close but they work with normal (50' boxcars, 3 bay covered hoppers, etc) sized rolling stock coupled next to them. But it is on the edge. Anytime you have something operating close to its limits, you can easily exceed that limit. A curve that is actually 17.5" and not level can easily cause the SD70ACes to derail.
I wouldn't get on Walthers about their advertising because most likely your track isn't perfect. In ideal conditions the passenger cars will almost always run as advertised. In the manufacturing process, there are those pieces that aren't perfect and may have a minor flaw, but usually nothing a little tuning/fixing can't solve.
I would try to make the track work flawless for the 24" radius curves. That would most likely solve any and all problems.
Ditto everything Kyle says... and
The conversation here primarily focuses on the 24" radius but along with the radius your trackwork has to be DEAD FLAT!
As mentioned previously nearly all the Walthers cars use the round-head screws to ride on contact strips ant these contact strips are supposed to flex a bit.
I have found quite a few cases where there is not enough axial pivot to allow the truck to "dip" into a low spot or ride over a high spot without affecting the truck on the other end.
Remember the golden rule of car/truck geometry? The three legged stool. At least one truck has to have enough flexibility to allow for low/high rail pitch.
On the Super Dome the rigidity is especially pronounced because of those outside swing hangers that I mentioned in my previous post.
Sometimes it helps to set the car on a mirror if you have one big enough or at least a piece of glass and try to observe each wheel using a small probe to look for any stiffness. If you lift one wheel and you see the wheels lifting at the other end of the car you don't have enough "flex" allowance.
Good Luck, Ed
No I'm bellyaching because I bought six of them (count em 6) for two different roads prior to layout construction. Pretty much destroyed the value of one. I guess the others will end up on Ebay aka selldajunkoff Wayne
On 6 wheel trucks sometimes the center axle hole in the side frame is not far enough up toward the top of the truck. This causes the truck to rock from end to end on the center axle, lifting the front or back wheels enough to derail. Removing some plastic from the top of the hole has solved the problem for me.
Mark Vinski
I've never rated Walthers passenger cars very high so it would be hard for me to say they are overrated. They look nice like a high end car should but operationally they are quite poor. For what they charge, it is inexcusable that a Walthers RTR passenger car can't negotiate a Walthers #7 curved turnout flawlessly right out of the box. I've had the same problem with #8 curved turnouts. It's only the Walthers cars that give me trouble. A number of them are on the shelf because I can't get them to operate reliably.
The biggest problem I have seen has been with the dome car. 1. The truck hits the rear corners of the coupler box. Solution: file down the corners of the coupler box. 2. The car body rides too low on the trucks. Solution: cut a 1 inch or so piece of 14 g solid core wire, remove the insulation and bend into a donut "washer" with about 1/4 " inside diameter or outside diameter of about 1/2". Place the washer between the bolster nub and the truck. 3: Install the screw, but do not tighten down. This will allow some slop for the truck to rise and fall over dips and high areas of the track. Also, put a small drop of oil on the ends of the wheel axles, populate with 1/100 scale people (from China via ebay). Add lighting board from SBS4DCC.com. Attach the light board to the interior power tabs using a slightly widened rail joiner, solder a short wire to the joiner and attach to the light board. While I have not needed to do this, consider putting a smaller diameter wheelset (33") in the center axle of the 6 wheel truck.
Using the 3 modifications above, has allowed permitted the dome car to run well on our club layout where the track is far less that perfect. We avoid 24" radius curves on our layout and use primarily 28 to 30" radius curves.
I have cured a lot of derailment problems just by adding weight. NMRA standards are just guidelines. A heavier car is less likely to derail than a light car. If you've tried all the other remedies, try adding some weight.
Mark, the sideframes are metal, screwed to the plastic insulating bolster, where are you removing plastic? Most of my isues have been "twisted" trucks and cocked pan head screws that don't ride properly or sqarely on the contact strips. Tight boster screws not allowing sufficient truck movement.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Don't have any, never will. But reading through this thread, something strikes me: I've always used the 2.5x minimum rule, that is, a curve's diameter should never be less than 2-1/2 times the length of the longest stock to be driven through them. For a 12" long car, that's 30 inches, and at least a #10 turnout.
Minimum radius, as advertised by a manufacturer, is just that: the car will take this curve individually (not necessarily in consist), without derailing every time. Want good cornering performance: at least 3x radius. Prototypical appeaeance? 4×. Consistent coupling / uncoupling? Try 5x.
Good luck getting them to run.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
CTValleyRR Don't have any, never will. But reading through this thread, something strikes me: I've always used the 2.5x minimum rule, that is, a curve's diameter should never be less than 2-1/2 times the length of the longest stock to be driven through them. For a 12" long car, that's 30 inches, and at least a #10 turnout. Minimum radius, as advertised by a manufacturer, is just that: the car will take this curve individually (not necessarily in consist), without derailing every time. Want good cornering performance: at least 3x radius. Prototypical appeaeance? 4×. Consistent coupling / uncoupling? Try 5x.
It was mentioned above, but you should make sure diaphragms are not pressing on each other enough to push one car off. The Walther diaphragm springs are too strong to depress much in sharp curves, relative to the weight of the car ends, and the solutions are: weaken the springs, use longer couplers, add more weight, or get more flexible diaphragms. Always test backing the consist on the tightest curves, since this is much more demanding of diaphragms/couplers than going forward.
IMHO, operators planning to use 80/85 ft cars are definitely better off to go with 28" or larger radii, 36" or more in stub yards. Even that can cause derailments during backing if the cars are not otherwise well tuned. Extra weight in headend cars may be helpful with longer consists.
Cars such as SP Daylight having full width diaphragms with adequate flexibility can have another problem: if the contacting surfaces are not smooth enough, the diaphragms can snag on each other. I had to sand some diaphragm surfaces of cars I was trying to close-couple.
I don't like the Walther 6-wheel trucks much, because with both axle and side frame being metal, they tend not to roll all that well, even with machining and lubrication. I exchanged many of them for Branchline truck kits (nylon bearings), with dramatic (50-70 %) decrease in tractive effort needed. But this requires a workaround if track-powered lighting is desired.
Hal
nycmodel I concur with CAZEPHYR about the metal contact points for the lighting connections. I had to file down one or two to get the trucks to sit on the tracks evenly. My main complaint about the Walthers passenger cars is getting the %$#! roof off. I lost count of how many of those plastic roof clips I broke off and had to CA back on. Having said that there is nothing nicer than watching my 1948 20th Century Limited with Walthers cars fully lighted with interior details and passengers (I added).
Thanks. Post some pictures of the 20th Century train when you get time. That is a nice train. I did the El Cap two years ago when they finally got the rest of the cars out to us. Another factor to good running relies on the diaphragms working correctly. If they are touching and actually compressing, it can be a problem on turnouts and tight curves.
The electrical pickup is a problem with some of the cars and any 85' foot car is going to be pushing the envelope. I noticed Selector said his were much better on 26" radius. Manufacturers like to quote lower radius for their products so they can sell more, but they probably will start giving problems if any little thing is not totally correct.
The pictures below show some of the detail I added to the cars. Do they run on tight curves, absolutely not!!!!! A close friend has the basic same 11 car train and all of his cars needed the contacts reworked to allow it to run past #6 turnouts.
Larry
My camera equipment and skills are basic but here goes. BTW, the Hickory Creek has operating marker lights (red led plus fiber optics) and the drumhead is handmade with a blue led backlight. Sorry, these are static pictures with the power off.
The Dining car. Complete with "flowers" on the table.