I need some help to define to my dad (who's 45 years old and calls almost every EMD he sees a GP38 and every GE he sees a dash 9. I'm 16 and I know more about the prototype locomotives and this hobby than he does.) what a freelanced railroad really is. I'm trying to convince my dad to model the Grand Trunk Western during their transition period based around his home town of Owosso and the area of Durand but we have 2 Amtrak P42s, 2 B&O F7 units with maching B units, 1 Ann Arbor GP35, 2 DT&I SD38s, 1 C&O/ Pere Marquette E unit, 1 GTW GP40, 1 GTW 4-6-2 light makado (if I spelled this wrong, please correct it when you reply), 1 C&O T-1 2-10-4, 1 GTW GP38-2, 1 GTW GP9, 1 C&O SD35, 1 Pere Marquette Berkshire (sadly not 1225), and 1 CSX SD45. Most (by meaning all most all) of our locomotive roster does not corespondent with the transition era or the GTW (even most of our rolling stock isn't transitional period correct but Im not going to waste your time any more than I am wasting mine) Anything on or about the GTW during the transition and an extremely simple definition on a freelanced railroad because my dad has the reading level of a 4th grader and the brain of a monkey (he has a hard time comprehending advanced language and can forget things easily). Sorry about the length, poor grammar, and all of the parenthesis in this but I need as much info as possible. Thanks, Jerry
One problem with freelancing is that there is de facto permission to deviate from prototypical practice. A deviation that is acceptable to one freelancer, is too much deviation to satisfy another. Since the two of you have agreed that you want SOME level of freelancing, it seems that the real problem is that his freelancing ideas don't match yours, and vice versa.
IMO, you haven't really explained your goals to me very well, and I suspect you haven't explained them any better to your dad. We haven't heard from him, so I don't know what his goals are. I would be curious as to who decided upon the various purchases that resulted in the roster you have. It seems to me that the two of you ought to sit down and concentrate on LISTENING to each other. Listening is more important than talking.
For starters, I think you might think about what you have said about your dad, and remember that he has shown a willingness to share this hobby with you. Lots of kids have dads who couldn't care less about their kids' interests. You're lucky to have a dad who does care. Maybe he deserves to be spoken of (and spoken to) with a bit more respect and love.
My own dad loved Lionel trains, and never really understood why I preferred the more fragile HO equipment. We had a problem communicating our differences; but we got along OK because we agreed on our shared love of railroads. When he died, he knew I loved him and I knew he loved me. That was always far more important than any disagreements we might have had.
Tom
I agree with ACY, GTW, you should thank your lucky stars that you have someone who at least shares your interest in model railroading.
My father got me started 60 plus years ago and those are very fond memories to me even now.
Your Dad will be long gone ( I hope not soon) but you will have a long time by yourself to model what ever you want. In the mean time savor your relationship and model completely freelance if he wants to and is not about to change. At least you are railroading with a buddy.
Wish my Dad was still here. You are very fortunate, think about that.
Johnboy out..........................
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
A good mind at 16 is a sponge for information, sharp and hungry for more and it is retained and treasured and sometimes lorded over others. I know at 16 I knew more than all the parents in the world.... or so I thought. Youth struggles to be all it can be as fast as possible. Age humbles and calms due to many life experiences.
As the others note, treasure your dad's presence. He may not know much about the precise nuances and nominclatures in railroading but he has other gifts, maybe not so apparent to you at this stage of the game.
Try to work the model railroading into a fun, joint venture and perhaps both of you will learn more about the other in a way you will treasure later.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
I know at 16 I knew more than all the parents in the world.... or so I thought.
Dad's probably thinking "16 year old thinks he knows everything and can't teach him a thing"
my dad has the reading level of a 4th grader and the brain of a monkey (he has a hard time comprehending advanced language and can forget things easily).
WOW! a member on this forum since July 2014 and your very first post insults a family member. Just remember this, his blood runs through your veins. Maybe you should re-think your hobby and your family.
Inspired by Addiction
See more on my YouTube Channel
Hi Jerry,
Welcome to the forum. I'll stay out of the interfamily dynamics other than to say to try to love your dad, even if ahem it can be difficult at times. I can still remember back to when I was 16 and things weren't easy. You do have the hobby to share and that may be a way to better understanding.
Your dad may be a visual learner, for instance, and you just think he's a slow reader or somthing. I'd suggest putting something on paper (the old fashioned way) or on the display (the modern way) that summarizes the case to model the GTW arouind Durand during the transition era. Do some research on your own, put something you're comfortable with together, and present it to him. This might be a good way to learn about PowerPoint yoruself, if you don't already know about it. Putting down and organizing the info you find will give you more insight into your argument, as well as making it easier for him to see it.
I'll suggest a few things if there's no book available that mostly meets these needs. Trackplans are really helpful, so try to find or draw one for around Durand with what you find out about the prototype in your research. The folks in the Prototype forum here will probabpy be glad to suggest sources for basic info like maps, locations of old buildings and trackwork, etc.
Then take that and what you propose for the layout space and use it all to draw a simplified version of your interpretation of the real thing in that space.
Make a list of imprtant locos and rolling stock and identify suitable models or close-enough stand-ins. This is a good place to use something like Excel to organize what will likely become a lot of data. You can also put down costs and Excel can total all that up and give you enough to build a basic budget. I think you can embed pics of each item in the Excel spreadsheet now. This is also a good way to figure out how much of you dreams you can afford right now. This will then help you to be patient about what you ask for.
You have an interesting group of locos at your disposal right now. Being you're only 16. most were probably purchased in an earlier stage of your Dad's life and may hold sentimental value for him. Maybe he thinks you want to get his boring old locos off the layout to make way for your new locos and stuff? Assure him that's not what you have planned.
If that's not possible, then at least be honest about it and explain clearly about your goals and preferences. Open honest discussions on just about any topic can lead to better relationships, even if they don't totally settle the issue. I'll bet if you go to the trouble of making organized presentation about it, he'll start to take it more seriouly this isn't a passing infatuation of yours, but a serious issue.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Rule 8, my layout, my rules. Same applies to your dads layout. It may drive YOU bananas, but it is HIS layout so if he wants to pull a string of Orient Express Pullmans with a pair of warbonnet F7s around the Eiffel Tower on the Moon that's his perogotive. Respect it, its just a hobby :-)
Have fun with your trains
Apparently, one thing your dad never learned to do is beat the living cra... Oh, never mind.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
Jerry,
To The Forums.
Not really much to add to the advice already given....but I may add..You should move out now...while you're still young and know everything.
BTW: My youngest Son, is 35yrs old, oldest 48 and still ask for my advice.
Take Care!
Frank
Respect your elders, as long as they don't disrespect you at every chance they get. But yeah, not everyone is good with technical data,and some don't care of the"plausibility". I've done a Wheeling unit with a nose headlight- incorrect, but other than the nose, it looks realistic. I digress, its a hobby, and unless you are getting paid to do it (or doing a museum layout following a n exact plan) it's just for fun.
Maybe write down a list (with roster shots), of the locomotives you want.
(My Model Railroad, My Rules)
These are the opinions of an under 35 , from the east end of, and modeling, the same section of the Wheeling and Lake Erie railway. As well as a freelanced road (Austinville and Dynamite City railroad).
To the OP..........
Back in the late 1950s, I was an avid young MR and I would have given anything if my Dad joined me in building my layout or just chatting about the process or trains or anything else that interested me.
You are so very fortunate to have a Dad who is interested in your hobbies. And yes, you may well know more than he does, but "so what". You need to chill a bit, humor your Dad, and listen to what he has to say. In your later years you will realize that was the right thing to do, and you will be glad you did it.
ENJOY your ol man - youth and life are so very, very short.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
First freelancing is not modeling the GTW with mixed era cars and locomotives from various railroads.
Now be happy you Dad enjoys the hobby with you instead of discouraging you.I know I still cherish the hours my dad and I enjoyed the hobby together,the skills he taught me I still use and the hours spent railfaning before he passed in '68..
Here's true freelancing.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
GTWGP38-2guy my dad has the reading level of a 4th grader and the brain of a monkey (he has a hard time comprehending advanced language and can forget things easily). Sorry about the length, poor grammar, and all of the parenthesis in this
my dad has the reading level of a 4th grader and the brain of a monkey (he has a hard time comprehending advanced language and can forget things easily). Sorry about the length, poor grammar, and all of the parenthesis in this
Rich
Alton Junction
Umm to me it kind of sounds like the OP wants to "protolance" the GTW vs purely freelancing (with your own road name) And that's ok.
Here's some breif defintions as I see them:
Prototype modeling: modeling a specific road (or roads) in a specfic time and place. Using track arrangements that resemble the prototypes (for example Whiskey Island ore dock for the PRR) and place names helps. Of course motoive power and rolling stock should be what the RR had atthe time. One big plus, if you have questions about operations or track arrangements you can look up whatthe prototype did.
Freelance: is kind of the oppsotise. No specific place, time or roadnames. It can be a fictional road or (for eas of purchasing) based on a real railroad name. Track plan can be whatever suits your needs and wants, place names can be purely fictional. In you case it could be a modern shortline that runs steam excusions in the Upper midwest. Plus (or miuns depending on point of view) is that you are not bound by what any given railroad would have done in a situation, this is good since the possibilities are endless (within the scope of physics anyways) but can make finalizing a decision difficult. Gorre and Dapheited is a well known one.
Protolance is a mix of the 2: based heavily on a specific railroad in a specific time and place though the the time , place and roadname need not be factual. Has the advantage of using the prototype for guidance but your not strictly held to their operating rules and history. The Alleghany Midland is a good example, based heavily on the NKP but in a area that road never went.
The very eclectic collection of rolling stock spans a very long time frame, perhaps some sort of layout that can be operated in 2 eras would be in order. The track plan and most structures can stay, some details will change to compliment a steam era road or a more modern time with out steam.
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
That is an expensive collection of rolling stock. I seriously doubt that the 16 year old contributed much to it. Perhaps when you begin using your own money you can buy stuff you like better. In the mean time you our not critiquing "our layout" you are complaining about "his layout".
As a person whose father was 46 when he died, I find your description of your father particularly offensive. I would have traded every train in my collection to have him back.
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
ruderunnerFreelance: is kind of the oppsotise. No specific place, time or roadnames. It can be a fictional road or (for eas of purchasing) based on a real railroad name. Track plan can be whatever suits your needs and wants, place names can be purely fictional. In you case it could be a modern shortline that runs steam excusions in the Upper midwest. Plus (or miuns depending on point of view) is that you are not bound by what any given railroad would have done in a situation, this is good since the possibilities are endless (within the scope of physics anyways) but can make finalizing a decision difficult.
Actually to have a believable freelance railroad there are disciplines to follow..
Examples of these discipline can be seen in the V&O,the old AM,the Maumee Route,Utah Belt and other prime examples of freelance railroads.
A freelance terminal railroad can use power from its owning railroads similar to CRSAO.
Troll?
GTWGP-38guy:
If my Father EVER heard me describe him like you did yours, I wouldn't be sitting down for weeks. 16 or not.
You need to be taught some respect.
Terry in NW Wisconsin
Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel
saronaterryTroll?
Russell
Respect has to be earned just not given blindly.From where I'm setting I see a 16 year old that has some knowledge and a 45 year old who thinks at 16 the kid knows nothing.
By the way I see the same thing right here in this thread from a lot of the posters (must be a lot of you were born as adults)
Incase your wondering I am a youngster my self,I won't be 70 for another two weeks.
That's why I said listening is more important than talking.
I think our young friend and his dad have the equivalent of a small model railroad club. Since each member of the club has a different personal agenda, it's important for every club member to bend a bit to accommodate the other guy's tastes.
I'm CONSIDERABLY younger than Catt. A year & 2 weeks, to be precise.
ACYThat's why I said listening is more important than talking. I think our young friend and his dad have the equivalent of a small model railroad club. Since each member of the club has a different personal agenda, it's important for every club member to bend a bit to accommodate the other guy's tastes.
Two guys having an argument over railroading? Yeah, time to dial back the testosterone and cut each other some slack. Model railroading is not going to overcome all the intergenerational dynamics, but can serve as shared ground to find common gain. I suspect both parties can gain from reconsidering their positions. Obviously, it would be helpful if son realized this an took a different route. That's a sign of maturity. But as we all know, some of us can be pretty needy,too. Dad should realize that his son needs something a little different than what he gets from the hobby and do what he can to encourage that...
Gee, this is starting to sound like classic Dear Abby, right down to the readers who think it's all bogus. Whatever. I think it's one of those many opportunities to share the hobby in hopes of helping it grow or at least hold it's own...and good advice on how to handle same is plenty useful in this life.
I may be the youngest posting here currently (23), and I belong to a club that models the 50's-80's , while I model 2014 Wheeling &Lake Erie. I do have era appropriate locos though (Pennsy K4s, a switcher, a NS GP35 custom paint,etc), and I get to run my Wheeling equipment. Its all about give and take.
An observation: I think freelancing has come to mean a non-prototypical approach but at least vaguely plausible in terms of keeping era consistent and such. When carried to a high degree it is called proto-freelancing ( a la the V&O or Alleghany Midland). Some guys, including some very talented modelers, run whatever pleases them. This has a long history in the hobby. I don't think running just whatever pleases you without even an attempt at a "story" to tie it all together is really freelancing at least as I have come to understand and use the term.
So I don't think dad and son have different conceptions of freelancing. Son is a freelancer and Dad just wants to run what he likes. I guess there is a slight geographic tie in to most of the stuff and that is enough for many guys.
The tone of the son's posting reminds me of that great quote by Mark Twain: "when I was 14 my father was so stupid I could hardly stand to have the old man around. When I turned 21 I was amazed at how much he had learned in 7 years."
Dave Nelson
CattRespect has to be earned just not given blindly.
I give respect blindly all the time, that way I usually always get respect back. Even a dysfunctional/ hardcore type will almost always respond better if approached in a respectful manner.
Not respecting me because you haven't known me long enough for me to earn it.....
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
That reminds me of a story I was told back when I started my first job in 1973 at a good sized engineering company. They said that one day the owner came into the drafting room and walked around talking to some of the employees. As he came over to each person, they would stand up and shake his hand. Then he came to one newer fellow who, apparently, made no effort to get up. As I was told, the owner said something to the effect that he should have stood up when he spoke to him. The employee then told him "You have to earn my respect, not demand it."
While some folks may agree with the employee, I never got it. For one thing, back then, things were more formal in the work environment than they are now. But more importantly, this fellow thought it was okay to be disrespectful towards the man who was giving him a job while expecting the owner to earn his respect.
How can showing respect for everyone, as Brent said, ever be the wrong thing to do?
Jim
Jerry, most of us have been around that same block you are, so come on back and we'll talk a bit. This
GTWGP38-2guy ...my dad has the reading level of a 4th grader and the brain of a monkey (he has a hard time comprehending advanced language and can forget things easily).
...my dad has the reading level of a 4th grader and the brain of a monkey (he has a hard time comprehending advanced language and can forget things easily).
BRAKIE ruderunner Freelance: is kind of the oppsotise. No specific place, time or roadnames. It can be a fictional road or (for eas of purchasing) based on a real railroad name. Track plan can be whatever suits your needs and wants, place names can be purely fictional. In you case it could be a modern shortline that runs steam excusions in the Upper midwest. Plus (or miuns depending on point of view) is that you are not bound by what any given railroad would have done in a situation, this is good since the possibilities are endless (within the scope of physics anyways) but can make finalizing a decision difficult. Actually to have a believable freelance railroad there are disciplines to follow.. Examples of these discipline can be seen in the V&O,the old AM,the Maumee Route,Utah Belt and other prime examples of freelance railroads. A freelance terminal railroad can use power from its owning railroads similar to CRSAO.
ruderunner Freelance: is kind of the oppsotise. No specific place, time or roadnames. It can be a fictional road or (for eas of purchasing) based on a real railroad name. Track plan can be whatever suits your needs and wants, place names can be purely fictional. In you case it could be a modern shortline that runs steam excusions in the Upper midwest. Plus (or miuns depending on point of view) is that you are not bound by what any given railroad would have done in a situation, this is good since the possibilities are endless (within the scope of physics anyways) but can make finalizing a decision difficult.
LarrLarry that's true and why I suggested the short line idea. Second hand locos with an Amtrak train passing through is believable enough. It's up to the op to flesh out the details.
jmbjmb Jerry, most of us have been around that same block you are, so come on back and we'll talk a bit. This GTWGP38-2guy ...my dad has the reading level of a 4th grader and the brain of a monkey (he has a hard time comprehending advanced language and can forget things easily). is a pretty strong statement which could be one of two things. A teenager overimpressed with himself vs his dad (like many here, I've been both a teenager and now have teenagers) or a dad who is developmentally disabled. If it's the former, the first start would be to sit with dad, applogize, and then try to come to a compromise on what ya'll want to do together. If it's the latter, then, I'm sorry, but you may have to man up a bit earlier than most and find a way to carry a bit more load. My dad and I didn't always see eye to eye, but he always had time to take me fishing. I'd so love go fishing with him once again. One day you will pull that train off the shelf. The one that doesn't fit your theme. And you won't care a bit, because you'll be telling your son "Dad and I used to ..." jim
This is a good point and I personally read the op description as a description, not an insult. My grandfather could have easily fit that description (illiterate, and simple mminded) he couldn't tell an Oldsmobile from a Fiat but could I'd them as cars.
ruderunner This is a good point and I personally read the op description as a description, not an insult. My grandfather could have easily fit that description
This is a good point and I personally read the op description as a description, not an insult. My grandfather could have easily fit that description
That remark by the OP was an insult, not a description.
The entire initial post was an insult.
dknelsonWhen carried to a high degree it is called proto-freelancing ( a la the V&O or Alleghany Midland).
Proto-freelancing is not the same as freelancing a railroad..Proto-freelancing is modeling a fictitious division or branchline of (let's say) the Chessie(C&O) instead of a real C&O branch line.
The V&O or Alleghany Midland or even my Summerset Ry is a fictitious freelance railroad and not based on any prototype.