I'm just whistling in the dark a bit here, but perhaps to go some way towards advancing this discussion it may be nesseserry to understand why modelers choose any particular road to model or to incorporate into a geographic area that is of modeling interest to them.
I think that for as many modelers there are there are possibly that many reasons that dedetermine the choice. But there will be of course commonalities. From the pragmatic to the emotional, most of these reasons are already well recognized & understood. I can really only be certain of my own personal experience in choosing the fallen flag road I model & that was as random as all get out. It's often how a modeler relates to a road operating when & where it did, or indeed still does - the familiar or the exotic.
As a Southerner & flat lander my natural leaning is towards RR's of the south east. Anything with a higher elevation than gopher diggins sets off my vertigo -just kidding!
If you are looking for an easy answer to your question then I think that you will find that slow in coming if in fact one exists at all. Which is perhaps why the side issue to your question has settled on the availability of models for the, NP.
Take heart, all is not lost, just enjoy doing your modeling.
Dusty.
I love the NP and the Milwaukee Road, (western portions mainly) as I grew up on the GN mainline and the NP and MILW were 60 miles south of me in Montana. Both railroads ran parrallel for miles through Montana, and the NP rails over Homestake Pass into Butte, through very unusual rock formations and clinging to the hillside, is still awesome to look at. MRL is my favorite current railroad (which uses the old NP mainline).
I agree that Raymond Loewy's designs and the NP railroad stations (Livingston MT for example) were classy, and the best looking railroad schemes there was.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=402049&nseq=12
Perhaps the lack of layouts has to do with the lack of locos? I am unsure why it is this way? Perhaps Walthers will release a "North Coast Limites" trainset in the future.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/hunter1828/2393580867/in/pool-nprr/
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Maybe it's a lack of locos, the NP had a huge fleet of F units(and two FP7's) same for the GN, and Q. I'm happy I've got atleast 4 NP F units. I wish I had some GN ones, my fleet could use atleast an ABA set.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Along with my impetus to ask why the N.P. appears to not be a very popular modeling focus was to see if I could shake any other N.P. modellers out of the wood work. I knew that Gary (BN24) modeled the SP&S. I also knew that there were a few other "N.P. heads" out there. Grinell is a new name I did not know was an N.P. Modeller.
As far as the availability of N.P. locomotives, I have quite a few: I have an F-7 A-B-A set made from old Athearn Blue Box B.N. F-7s, I have a Stewart Baldwin VO1000 switcher, I have three GP-7 one from Athearn Blue Box and 2 Life Like Proto P2K. I have a Stewart RS-2 and an Atlas RS-3. For steam I have a G-2 switcher from IHC, A brass PFM Y-2 consolidation, a Kit Bashed W-3 micado built from a Rivarossi Mike. I have other locomotives for my shortline RR. So, I feel I have a collection of N.P. motive power addequate for my layout.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
I have no interest in NP simply because I grew up in Chicago and model Chicago, specifically Dearborn Station.
Dearborn Station hosted six roads, ATSF, GTW, Monon, C&EI, Erie, and Wabash.
To my knowledge, NP never made it to Chicago at all.
That may be the reason for a lower interest level in NP for others.
Where they grew up, what roads they viewed as "railfans", what other roads they model.
Rich
Alton Junction
I am no sure what scale you model, bu Hornby has announced the GE U%C. They will be painting it in the Northern Pacific colros with two numbers. It will be DCC ready and the picutres on therir web site look good.
Possible reasons for a ho-hum view of Northern Pacific (inserting tongue firmly in cheek):
1. Lack of 4-8-2's. All the really popular railroads (ATSF, UP, SP, Pennsy, NYC, B&O, NYNH&H etc.) had 4-8-2's. No 4-8-2's = a lack of interest. Granted having 4-8-2's doesn't guarantee overwhelming popularity (e.g. BAR, CV, CofG), but there seems to be a very high correlation coefficient between 4-8-2's and a railroad's popularity. Incidentally, GN had some very nice looking 4-8-2's.
2. Lame premier passenger train name. GN had "The Empire Builder", UP "The Overland", MILW "The Olympian Hiawatha", ATSF "The Super Chief". NP had "The North Coast Limited", which really doesn't tell you much and is an oxymoron to boot. The US has no North Coast. Canada does, but the NCL didn't go to Canada.
3. Uninspired leadership. After all, the GN had James J. Hill. Who did the NP have? There were several CEO's before NP's golden spike was driven in 1883 under the leadership of Henry Villard. How many here know who Villard was?
4. Mundane motive power. While reasonably attractive and lacking the mud fence attributes of some roads' motive power (the appalling esthetics of Maine Central steam power comes to mind), NP steam lacks the panache of GN's. Yeah, an NP W-5 is attractive, but when compared to the macho looks of a GN O-8, there's just no comparison. Even the Z-5 2-8-8-4 wasn't that big a success. Even the Milwaukee Road, which had eminently forgettable steam power, at least had the virtue of fielding some awesome electric power, one sample of which (the EP-3) was the basis of the locomotive in the novel "Tom Swift And His Electric Locomotive".
5. No support from Hollywood and a fairly tame history. A number of movies were made featuring the SP, UP, Santa Fe, NYC, CB&Q ("Silver Streak") and the D&RGW. Even the MILW got into the act ("Danger Lights"). As for history, the NP never had the DRGW/ATSF battle for the Royal Gorge or ATSF hoodwinking DRGW operatives and seizing Raton Pass with the help of "Uncle" Dick Wooton. In addition, Santa Fe's rivalry with the SP was the stuff of legend and when Arabella Huntington, widow of Collis P Huntington, took a Santa Fe train from the east to LA, SP General Manager Julius Krutschnitt was quoted as remarking, "There is no God".
6. And finally, a vast conspiracy. J. J. Hill, the old one-eyed pirate and author of GN's early fortune, managed to seize control of the NP after it went bankrupt in the 1890's and keep it out of the spotlight.It was part of Hill's evil master plan.
</tongue in cheek>
Andre
andrechapelon Possible reasons for a ho-hum view of Northern Pacific (inserting tongue firmly in cheek): 2. Lame premier passenger train name. GN had "The Empire Builder", UP "The Overland", MILW "The Olympian Hiawatha", ATSF "The Super Chief". NP had "The North Coast Limited", which really doesn't tell you much and is an oxymoron to boot. The US has no North Coast. Canada does, but the NCL didn't go to Canada. Andre
I would consider the Northern half of the Pacific and Atlantic Coasts to be the U.S's North Coasts. My guess is that all Americans and every map maker in the world would agree. I guess Andre wouldn't be happy with the "Mainstreeter", either. Oh what was I thinking picking the N.P., which I believe has the best looking steam engines in the world?
Just since it was mentioned a couple of times...the NP didn't build tracks to Chicago, but NP and GN together owned about 90% of the CB&Q, so NP passenger trains did run to Chicago behind Burlington power. If you model the Burlington's line from St.Paul to Chicago, you can run passenger trains of GN, NP and the CB&Q, all with Burlington engines (like E-units).
Which brings up a point - maybe there are a lot of us that don't exclusively model the NP, but have layouts where NP equipment is used at least sometimes? Although I free-lance, the iron ore part of my layout (under construction) is based on the NP-Soo joint operation between Superior WI and the Cuyuna range in central Minnesota. So I have some NP engines, cars, and cabooses (well caboose - just one so far) but I'm not exactly 'modeling' the NP.
When deciding a road name you tend to go with what is avalible. Went with Southern Pacific, not because I live in their teritory (I don't care about that) but because I can get what I want in their name without a lot of work. I model the late 1930's and their is a lot of stuff for that time period in SP colors.
Pretty much anyone not modeling ATSF, UP, PRR and a few others (SP, DRGW, NYC, et al) would have the same complaint.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyama Pretty much anyone not modeling ATSF, UP, PRR and a few others (SP, DRGW, NYC, et al) would have the same complaint.
As for Andre's post lawl.
Maybe Hill line modelers have slightly better taste going off the beaten to death Pennsy/UP/ATSF/etc. trail.
I still have yet to regret my decision.
I think it is a number of factors. Even if there is a fair amount of NP models out there, they don't "get the press" that the others do. Perhaps because most manufacturers/importers and advertising firms are in NYC, LA, and Chicago? (I'm just guessing here).
It was pointed out that the Seattle and Twin Cities metro areas have a large population. But they DIDN'T when the NP was around! Remember, much of the reason a person models a particular road is childhood memories. The corollary to this is that there is much more BN representation.
And, as someone else pointed out, even when railroads ruled this country, the NP didn't get that much press.
Sean
HO Scale CSX Modeler
NP2626 andrechapelon Possible reasons for a ho-hum view of Northern Pacific (inserting tongue firmly in cheek): 2. Lame premier passenger train name. GN had "The Empire Builder", UP "The Overland", MILW "The Olympian Hiawatha", ATSF "The Super Chief". NP had "The North Coast Limited", which really doesn't tell you much and is an oxymoron to boot. The US has no North Coast. Canada does, but the NCL didn't go to Canada. Andre I would consider the Northern half of the Pacific Coast to be the U.S's North Coast. My guess is that all Americans and every map maker in the world would agree. I guess Andre wouldn't be happy with the "Mainstreeter", either. Oh what was I thinking picking the N.P., which I believe has the best looking steam engines in the world?
I would consider the Northern half of the Pacific Coast to be the U.S's North Coast. My guess is that all Americans and every map maker in the world would agree. I guess Andre wouldn't be happy with the "Mainstreeter", either. Oh what was I thinking picking the N.P., which I believe has the best looking steam engines in the world?
Andre is a really nice guy, perhaps you should take a time out before responding, or learn to Google definitions.
Tongue-in-cheek is a figure of speech used to imply that a statement or other production is humorously or otherwise not seriously intended, and it should not be taken at face value. The facial expression typically indicates that one is joking or making a mental effort.[1] In the past, it may also have indicated contempt, but that is no longer common
I would consider the Northern half of the Pacific Coast to be the U.S's North Coast.
Nope. Northern part of the West Coast. Just like coastal Maine is the northern part of the East Coast. Admittedly, the US has a South Coast, but there is no North Coast (just like Canada has no South Coast). Under your logic, Maine would have just as much right to be called the "North Coast" and the "North Coast Limited" could have been a joint B&M/MEC train.
I guess Andre wouldn't be happy with the "Mainstreeter", either.
What part of "tongue-in-cheek" gives you difficulty? Does the definition of "facetious" elude you? Does the phrase "pulling your leg" have no meaning? In any case, what "Mainstreeter" brings to mind is Upton Sinclair's novel "Main Street" which tells the tale of a young woman who marries a physician in a small Midwestern town and is stifled by the narrow mindedness and dullness of the town's denizens. At least the GN had the good sense to call its secondary transcontinental train "The Western Star".
Oh what was I thinking picking the N.P., which I believe has the best looking steam engines in the world?
I don't know. Are you unfamiliar with the esthetics of a South African Railways 19D class 4-8-2? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou5WrVTDNjE
How about a Stanier Pacific, namely ex LMS 6201 "Princess Elizabeth", here ascending Ais Gill on the Settle-Carlisle line? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd-jG7-xH08
Here's one of my favorites, an NZGR Ja class 4-8-2 being paced near Kataki on New Zealand's South Island: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajbrv7HzxAQ
Then there's an ex GWR Castle (at 75 mph) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4r5SklgMCU
Or a Victoria Railways R 4-6-4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy9eFObaZK4
Or DB 01 1100, a 4-6-2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sO3fTbGdIk
Stanier's Black 5's were cool looking and something like 842 of them were built between 1934 and the 1950's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX3SX-6Mys4
Russian P36 4-8-4's were no slouches in the looks department. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGLi7brO3hA
Certainly CPR's 4-6-4's were very attractive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_U-R2MeanE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZCXgC91om4
South African Railways class 24, a lightweight 2-8-4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5tKJAhagZo
You can't know whose engines are the best looking if you're not familiar with the competition. Like, say, the SNCF 141R, which actually was American in origin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ88sDpWEA0
RENFE (Red Nacional de Ferrocarriles Españoles) 141F: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJlT0y1-9wA
And, naturally, the Chinese Railways QJ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S6RtdwiyGY
Rebuilt Merchant Navy 35028 "Clan Line". Not really beautiful perhaps, but, like Richard Castle, ruggedly handsome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg1ah0l_9p4
Here's one of the prettiest 4-8-2's ever built: http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/0/6/3/6063.1308855359.jpg
BTW, I'm an SP fan. I'm just not provincial about it. Of all SP's locomotives, I think the MT-1/3/4/5 4-8-2's were the prettiest, but only after skyline casings were added. Even still, on an esthetic basis, the B&O T-3 beats them.
The NP existed in an era when there were dozens of Class ! railroads. Therefore, modelers have many choices for prototypes if modeling in the 1960's or earlier. Similar questions can be asked about other class 1 railroads of that era, too.
There is no lack of interest in the Northern Pacific on my layout. Both NP and GN have running rights on my CB&Q themed layout. My NP diesels include 12 F-units (both freight and passenger), a GP9, and 2 RS3's. My NP steam include 0-8-0, 2-8-0, and 4-8-4. Not all locomotives have been converted to DCC so far, and the non-DCC engines are currently stored. My layout was converted to DCC 3 or 4 years ago.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
rrebell When deciding a road name you tend to go with what is avalible. Went with Southern Pacific, not because I live in their teritory (I don't care about that) but because I can get what I want in their name without a lot of work. I model the late 1930's and their is a lot of stuff for that time period in SP colors.
While obviously you went with "When deciding a road name you tend to go with what is avalible." I doubt many of us used that criteria to make a decision on what RR to model! I should think it would be more what you where/are close to, your home road, so to speak. It certainly was this way for me. I grew up watching long Northern Pacific Freight trains and an occasional passenger train between the Twin Cities and Motley Minnesota on my hundreds of trips up north, as a kid.
This will be a point many of you might feel the need to pick apart. In actuality some of my intertest in the Northern Pacific stems from the fact that it isn't as well modeled as other RRs. Yes, I made my own bed; however, the fact that I CHOSE a less modeled railroad to model, shouldn't mean that I can't ask the questions I have asked. The questions I asked weren't a challange to others to get busy and model the N.P. Only a wondering of why the N.P. is less modeled. Some of your answers seem plausable and well thought out. Some seem to show a sort of vindictiveness towards anyone who would model something they feel is less worthy of modeling than your own much more worthy choice. A pretty immature stance on a pretty meanless subject.
I don't know if there is a satisfactory answer regarding the northern Pacific popularity. It's been gone now for nearly 45 years so those who were alive to and remember it well are dwindling, and yes, it was in a less populated part of the country - the Pacific northwest. It's probably a combination of those two factors. I'm 55 and I don't ever recall seeing any diesels in NP paint.
IRONROOSTERThen you have the second tier of NYC, SP, UP, and B&O plus D&RGW for the narrow gauge. Usually stuff for these is around. Paul
Paul
I'd definitely include standard gauge D&RGW in the 2nd tier too - narrow gauge may have a major following but based on sales, I'd say standard gauge D&RGW does too. The D&RGW tunnel motors and SD50's always sell out. Most of the stuff I see on fleabay not sold out are bogus or fantasy models painted for D&RGW, although some SD45's have shown up at decent prices lately.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Maybe it all boils down to mathematics. Nowadays there are about a half dozen to a dozen big railroads in North America, so modern modelers have the choice of going freelance, following one of these big roads, or modeling a shortline. Naturally this limits the choices and means that there will be proportionally more modelers following a more limited numbers of roads.
But if you drop your time period back to the 1960's or earlier, the number of major railroads increases significantly. Back in the 1940's and 1950's, there were probably well over 100 Class 1 railroads, and each of those has its fans. In that milieu, N.P. is just one of many, many very appealing railroads.
As far as popularity goes, I think N.P. has a lot going for it, although I have a friend who used to work for the G.N., and he still wallows in the old rivalry. I model northern Ohio in 1952, but I haven't told my G.N. buddy that I own a PFM Northern Pacific 4-6-0 just because I LIKE the dang thing.
Tom
andrechapelon there is no North Coast
there is no North Coast
The Great Lakes.
NittanyLion andrechapelon there is no North Coast The Great Lakes.
Oceans have coasts, lakes have shores - Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic; Chicago, South Shore & South Bend....
Shortly before the North Coast Limited was introduced by NP, the NP bought the St.Paul & Duluth RR, who's top passenger train was the Lake Superior Limited. I've wondered if that name inspired someone at NP to come up with North Coast Limited.
Plus, it could be c.1900 people did refer to today's "Pacific Northwest" as the North Coast. The view people had of the country was different then, here in Minnesota we were often still referred to as being part of the "northwest" rather than the midwest, even though Minnesota hadn't been the farthest northwest state for many decades. (Hamms beer in St.Paul MN called itself "the brew that grew with the great northwest" into the 1960's...but then, bears aren't great at geography.) 100 years ago, what became today's Big 10 college athletic conference was called the Western conference, even though the farthest west members were Minnesota and Iowa.
I can apologize to Andre, as I failed to see his <Tounge-in-cheek> statement at the bottom of his post, was it there when I responded? I also didn't believe what I said in response, should be taken without a sense of humor.
wjstix Oceans have coasts, lakes have shores
Oceans have coasts, lakes have shores
Probably should call NOAA and tell them this, because they're over there operating the Great Lakes Coastal Forecasting System.
To back up NP's statement, If I modeled what was available I'd be just like every other modeler. Thanks but no thanks, I don't want to model Pennsylvania or California.
NP car getting some love from the railfan community - and still earning its keep in 2014:
http://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=82219
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I haven't seen any lately; however, within the last 10 years or so, I did see two N.P. cars togther in a work train at Staples, MN. I also have three fish belly cars that were probably old flat cars or outside braced N.P. box car frames along highway 200/71 here in the Park Rapids, MN area that are being used as bridges on a snow mobile trail! I know they are N.P. as I got up close and could see N.P. under the paint.
When I entered the hobby in early 2004, I quickly bought 127 freight cars without regard to road name or build date.
Interestingly, none of them are NP.
Not much of a scientific survey, but it does support the OP's assertion that NP is not a popular road name among manufacturers.
Perhpas, you will be interested in these detailed RS3's on my layout.
I model the NP, GN, SP&S, with UP having limited trackage rights. I enjoy the fact that everything the prototypes had, rolling stock, locomotives, equipment, is available either in a kit or brass.