OK, once people start talking about "real modelers," it's a good sign that productive discourse has stopped.
Thread locked.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
riogrande5761 eaglescout Wow! What an attack against someone simply trying to make the point that there is a way to get around the high price of RTR models. If you want to spend the two to four times the money on a highly detailed factory model that is fine. However, many of us enjoy and get great satisfaction out of making an improved model from a used or inexpensive car or loco others would pass up. Wow is what I thought I read your statement about "real modelers". It seemed like an attack against those who don't fit that narrow description, please understand how that sounds. I enjoy building kits too, and certainly it makes the hobby accessable to those who can't afford the higher prices of many of todays finer models.
eaglescout Wow! What an attack against someone simply trying to make the point that there is a way to get around the high price of RTR models. If you want to spend the two to four times the money on a highly detailed factory model that is fine. However, many of us enjoy and get great satisfaction out of making an improved model from a used or inexpensive car or loco others would pass up.
Wow! What an attack against someone simply trying to make the point that there is a way to get around the high price of RTR models. If you want to spend the two to four times the money on a highly detailed factory model that is fine. However, many of us enjoy and get great satisfaction out of making an improved model from a used or inexpensive car or loco others would pass up.
Wow is what I thought I read your statement about "real modelers". It seemed like an attack against those who don't fit that narrow description, please understand how that sounds. I enjoy building kits too, and certainly it makes the hobby accessable to those who can't afford the higher prices of many of todays finer models.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
eaglescout Looks like us real modelers will be doing more paint stripping and repainting for our lines; adding details to older models and making do with train show and Ebay purchases.
Looks like us real modelers will be doing more paint stripping and repainting for our lines; adding details to older models and making do with train show and Ebay purchases.
Are you serious? You are the one who started talking about "real modellers" and your comment implied that people who don't do painting and detailing are not "real modellers". Your comment came off as ignorant and offensive. Your comment was inviting an argument, so don't get surprised when others comment back.
From above:
eaglescout...simply trying to make the point that there is a way to get around the high price of RTR models.
This is such BS. You are just trying to cover for your previous outburst.
eaglescoutIf you want to spend the two to four times the money...
What money? What are you comparing to?
eaglescout...on a highly detailed factory model that is fine.
Just previously you implied that these people are not "real modellers". Are they imaginary modellers then? Are they fake modellers? Or are they not modellers at all?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
eaglescoutHowever, many of us enjoy and get great satisfaction out of making an improved model from a used or inexpensive car or loco others would pass up.
Exactly! I still like the older BB and Roundhouse cars even though they're a foot to wide. I like the idea of super detailing a BB engine and one of my favorite switch engine is a (big gulp!) BB GP7.
I have RTR cars and locomotives but,when the dust settles I end up using my BB engines the most including my BB SCL GP35.
I have removed all of my BB engines from service at least three times and each time I ended up getting them back out for use.
big daydreamer riogrande5761 ... eaglescout Looks like us real modelers will be doing more paint stripping and repainting for our lines; adding details to older models and making do with train show and Ebay purchases. Are you enjoying yourself there? Goodness I'm glad I don't need to wear a "I'm a real modeler" badge to be accepted or build my self esteem or something. So let me ask you, for those of us who tried to be a "real modeler", and ended up with a mess, are we supposed to crawl in a corner or find another hobby? Is there room in the hobby for us whose skills may lie in other things like track laying or electronics or something and *gasp* buy many of our models already painted? I think there is. /rant riogrande don't you know? REAL MODELLERS make their trains with wood from their backyard and glue it together wih the sweat off their back. Use an old discontinued paint to add colour, slap on some KD's and there you have it -- a model that rivals the latest Athearn Genesis release! All home made and no money going to some greedy buisness. (Kadee is not a greedy buisness because its special OK?) Thats how REAL MODELLERS do it!
riogrande5761 ... eaglescout Looks like us real modelers will be doing more paint stripping and repainting for our lines; adding details to older models and making do with train show and Ebay purchases. Are you enjoying yourself there? Goodness I'm glad I don't need to wear a "I'm a real modeler" badge to be accepted or build my self esteem or something. So let me ask you, for those of us who tried to be a "real modeler", and ended up with a mess, are we supposed to crawl in a corner or find another hobby? Is there room in the hobby for us whose skills may lie in other things like track laying or electronics or something and *gasp* buy many of our models already painted? I think there is. /rant
...
Are you enjoying yourself there? Goodness I'm glad I don't need to wear a "I'm a real modeler" badge to be accepted or build my self esteem or something. So let me ask you, for those of us who tried to be a "real modeler", and ended up with a mess, are we supposed to crawl in a corner or find another hobby? Is there room in the hobby for us whose skills may lie in other things like track laying or electronics or something and *gasp* buy many of our models already painted? I think there is.
/rant
riogrande don't you know? REAL MODELLERS make their trains with wood from their backyard and glue it together wih the sweat off their back. Use an old discontinued paint to add colour, slap on some KD's and there you have it -- a model that rivals the latest Athearn Genesis release! All home made and no money going to some greedy buisness. (Kadee is not a greedy buisness because its special OK?) Thats how REAL MODELLERS do it!
GP-9_Man's comment earlier (above) is very significant, particularly in his description of fee-based downloads for 3d printing. We already have this in the school textbook world, where I can opt for "softcopy" versions of textbooks on a time-locked basis (10 month school year), and then purchase the next revised version in the future, instead of shipping weight in boxes to get damaged by students as the physical books are handled by them. I used to get hard copies of new textbooks to evaluate, now I just type in an access code at a particular publisher's website to view (and copy down if needed) portions i want to use in classes.
What GP-9_Man's vision means that there are significant changes in the near future ahead for our hobby- I actually think that this will enliven and encourage kitbashers and D-I-Y-ers, breathing new life into the hobby.
Right now, it is hard to order "just a few details" for any particular diesel remodeling or rebuilding project- with downloadable files and 3D printing (even using a commercial location to obtain this service) I could dramatically expand my workbench project range.
Think what Athearn could do with this- those of us who love the old BB's could have our fill of them- same goes for other manufacturers.
What a great future ahead in our hobby!
Cedarwoodron
Chris,I think you missed my point.
So,I will repeat myself.
I'm not sure if I would care to tie up my limited business funds on the high hopes a customer will buy that engine or car.I would even sweat the preorders since the customer can refuse delivery for any or no reason at all.
Sure,I can order X many for stock and watch my investments collect dust while awaiting a walk-in or a regular customer to buy that car or locomotive.
In order for me to pay my bills I would need to place those cars and locomotives on e-Bay with the high hopes of breaking even after I pay e-Bay and Paypal fees.
Loyal customers willing to pay full MSRP is scarce in this computerized world in which we live.
BRAKIE mlehman Back to the specifics of this issue. No one prohibits that hobby shop from buying a model for stock. Nothing. Any shop that wants to stock that model can do so by simply ordering it. Just like you or me, if it wants to stock that model, there's a good opportunity to do that. That they can.. But,here lays the trap every small mom and pop shop faces.. Do they buy stock and sell at full MSRP or 10% off knowing full well that on line stores can order bulk shipments and sell for far less? I'm not sure if I would care to tie up my limited business funds on the high hopes a customer will buy that engine or car.I would even sweat the preorders since the customer can refuse deliverly for any or no reason at all. It seems to me the playing field is slanted toward the bigger on line shops that has the per capitol to buy bulk instead of a measly case or perhaps less of preorders.
mlehman Back to the specifics of this issue. No one prohibits that hobby shop from buying a model for stock. Nothing. Any shop that wants to stock that model can do so by simply ordering it. Just like you or me, if it wants to stock that model, there's a good opportunity to do that.
That they can..
But,here lays the trap every small mom and pop shop faces..
Do they buy stock and sell at full MSRP or 10% off knowing full well that on line stores can order bulk shipments and sell for far less?
I'm not sure if I would care to tie up my limited business funds on the high hopes a customer will buy that engine or car.I would even sweat the preorders since the customer can refuse deliverly for any or no reason at all.
It seems to me the playing field is slanted toward the bigger on line shops that has the per capitol to buy bulk instead of a measly case or perhaps less of preorders.
mlehman has it completely correct. It's not the Manufacturer's responsibility to anticipate over run. Banks won't loan to a manufacturer for "inventory". All units must be sold and in the hands of the consumers in 3-4 months. It's just the way it is. Complaining to manufacturers and getting upset at the banks won't perpetuate more inventory.
Ordering from your local hobby shop WILL affect inventory. Reminding them to "stock up" on popular products WILL affect available inventory...and your LHS will make profit from doing this.
It is the retailer's responsibility to order and stock popular items; to know their clientelle's purchasing habits and what will be popular among their regulars. Any store that doesn't have a clue about generally what will sell over something else hasn't been paying attention to their customers and prior sales trends. Any remaining stock, past their clientelle purchases of popular high demand products, the LHS themselves can sell at FULL RETAIL PRICE on the net through ebay or whatever shopping cart service they want. People will purchase it AND PAY SHIPPING. This simply because there are no other sources for the popular product. When there is more demand then supply, full SRP will be common price.
Take Atlas flex for example. When there was little supply and great demand, the price one could sell Atlas track was actually higher then SRP. Unfortunately the people that cleaned up on that opportunity were the guys selling off their personal stash of Atlas track probably at 30% more then what they purchased it for. The retailers could have done the same and benefitted the same too.
Chris Palomarez
big daydreamer riogrande don't you know? REAL MODELLERS make their trains with wood from their backyard and glue it together wih the sweat off their back. Use an old discontinued paint to add colour, slap on some KD's and there you have it -- a model that rivals the latest Athearn Genesis release! All home made and no money going to some greedy buisness. (Kadee is not a greedy buisness because its special OK?) Thats how REAL MODELLERS do it!
"REAL modelers cast their own brass parts in sand they dug themselves!"
"You had SAND? WE had to pour the molten brass into our BARE HANDS and shape it as it cooled! IF WE WERE LUCKY!"
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
riogrande5761 big daydreamer riogrande don't you know? REAL MODELLERS make their trains with wood from their backyard and glue it together wih the sweat off their back. Use an old discontinued paint to add colour, slap on some KD's and there you have it -- a model that rivals the latest Athearn Genesis release! All home made and no money going to some greedy buisness. (Kadee is not a greedy buisness because its special OK?) Thats how REAL MODELLERS do it! Thank goodness I know how real modelers do it now! =)
Thank goodness I know how real modelers do it now! =)
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
riogrande5761 We may not like it, but it's the way it is. And I should add, the way it has been for the past 10+ years. Do you remember when Life Like Proto 2000 was flooding the market and then cut drastically down on production? This was before Walthers took them over. We've seen this trend going on for nearly 15 years now and you make it sound like a new thing?
We may not like it, but it's the way it is.
And I should add, the way it has been for the past 10+ years. Do you remember when Life Like Proto 2000 was flooding the market and then cut drastically down on production? This was before Walthers took them over. We've seen this trend going on for nearly 15 years now and you make it sound like a new thing?
Jim, I'm as aware of the trend(s) as anybody; my point in posting was that a respected and large hobby shop which has always been upfront with its customers about this, felt that enough had changed - for the worse - that they needed to alert their customers that Athearn was making it even more so an advance order universe.
Dave Nelson
Anyway, I'm just muddling along in the hobby and quite frankly have more trains than I can make use of now, so if manufacturers are cutting back, some how we will survive. I will do the best to get what I want or need and try to be content.
eaglescoutLooks like us real modelers will be doing more paint stripping and repainting for our lines; adding details to older models and making do with train show and Ebay purchases.
I think that at some point in the dim and distant future 3D printing will A. become much more affordable and B. much more precise. Evntually the hobby will reach a point where Atlas, Kato and the others no longer make actual product. Rather you'll pay to download a file that will allow you to print a fixed number of copies of a locomotive or piece of rolling stock.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
BRAKIE narrow gauge nuclear Few of us old timers are the type to whimp out, we are doers. If someone won't make it or if we can't find it, we make it or by what ever method and expense, we find it. Absolutely. Nor are most of us retirees spend thrifts like we was when we had a weekly payday..We could easily afford to splurge one payday knowing the next was only 6 days and a wakeup away. Choice SCL GP9 by P2K or Genesis. $149.00 vs.55.00. A no brainer for me. Awhile back I bought the decals and a undec Accurail boxcar and made a modern Scioto Valley Lines boxcar. SVL is the Columbus,Ohio Model Railroad Club railroad name.I have the 40' boxcar the club had done several years ago but,I wanted a modern 50' boxcar.
narrow gauge nuclear Few of us old timers are the type to whimp out, we are doers. If someone won't make it or if we can't find it, we make it or by what ever method and expense, we find it.
Absolutely.
Nor are most of us retirees spend thrifts like we was when we had a weekly payday..We could easily afford to splurge one payday knowing the next was only 6 days and a wakeup away.
Choice SCL GP9 by P2K or Genesis. $149.00 vs.55.00.
A no brainer for me.
Awhile back I bought the decals and a undec Accurail boxcar and made a modern Scioto Valley Lines boxcar.
SVL is the Columbus,Ohio Model Railroad Club railroad name.I have the 40' boxcar the club had done several years ago but,I wanted a modern 50' boxcar.
narrow gauge nuclearFew of us old timers are the type to whimp out, we are doers. If someone won't make it or if we can't find it, we make it or by what ever method and expense, we find it.
As I noted originally, most here that are real model rails have found their work-arounds and will open their wallets for the right thing whether they "gotta have it at any price", or if it is a deal, or wait until they get it for what they want to pay. The more specialized you get and the more "rivet counting" you get, the less you will see that impresses you and the more you will be likely to complain.
The work-arounds are many as are the number of complaining MRs who are still model railroading in spite of the many told horrors and slings and arrows of outrageous fortune they see allied against their future efforts. We do it because it is fun and challenging. Arise to the challenges or whimp out. Few of us old timers are the type to whimp out, we are doers. If someone won't make it or if we can't find it, we make it or by what ever method and expense, we find it.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
BATMANPersonally I am delighted to have the option of shopping all over the world and have it show up a couple of days later. I bought the kids a new pool two weeks ago. Ordered it from someplace in the S.E. of the U.S. and it showed up five days later on the West coast of Canada. I saved $1200.00 over the best in store deal I could get here. It weighs 600LBS. in the box. I'm glad I didn't have to take it through the check out.
Cool story bro.....roar
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
jmbjmbI guess you live in a paradise location where you have choice and there is a shop "down the road" to go to. But I guess since folks like me don't have access to that don't count in the market?
Ha, I wish I did have a great shop locally that offered a decent discount (20%) and always took care to follow through on my pre-orders. Nope, right here in Horizon's home community there really isn't a shop like that. But they are around, you just have to be willing to go down the road a ways.
jmbjmbOr the fact that while some few folks may have thousands to drop whenever they want, there are a lot more of us who might have have small layouts and buy one or two, yet our total market is greater than those guys who have a thousand to dump on a new locomotive. Or is simply that only those who have mega basement layouts and blank check budgets matter and the rest of us simply aren't welcome in the hobby any more?
Most people I know with layouts built them over a lengthy period of time. After several earlier efforts, my current layout is just passing the 25 year mark. A big part of that was a decision to finally focus on a particular prototype/era, so I quit spending on attractive things I didn't need and focused on other, less galmorous things like wiring and ballast.
I do know I never could have built what I did at full retail. That used to be hard to do back when I started. Careful shopping and looking around led me to my current shop. He used to run a brick and mortar LHS, but now does shows and mail order only. Yes, you could probably beat his prices if you went to a lot of effort, but he takes care of my needs, so I just don't sweat that final penny or two on a few items.
I do know that if you're stuck with paying full MSRP, you're simply not exploring all your options. There are people out there waiting to give you great service at a reasonable discount. Look them up.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
With the computer age the manufacturing industry went to "just on time delivery" of parts and supplies for their plants. This meant nothing was sitting on the shelf waiting to be used. In other words no capital was sitting idle.
Now move ahead a couple of decades and everyone is online. This means if Brent wants a CPR Selkirk he had better preorder it and we will send it to him when we do a run of that engine. The engine will go immediatly from manufacture to Brents layout without sitting on a shelf somewhere tying up our capital.
A little understanding of corporate law and common sense will tell you that management (by law) is required to make a decision that is in the best interest of the shareholders. If that means no more brick and morter stores, so be it. A corporation is a piece of paper in a drawer in some government office someplace. There is no emotional response you can get from it. The bottom line is what decides how business is carried on and as a shareholder I am happy with that. So let's stop whining and carry on.
We are free to buy or not to buy. We are free to make more money if we need more. Or sit in front of the TV for hours on end and be happy with what we have.
Personally I am delighted to have the option of shopping all over the world and have it show up a couple of days later. I bought the kids a new pool two weeks ago. Ordered it from someplace in the S.E. of the U.S. and it showed up five days later on the West coast of Canada. I saved $1200.00 over the best in store deal I could get here. It weighs 600LBS. in the box. I'm glad I didn't have to take it through the check out.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
carl425 I can't hold my tongue (ok, fingers) any longer. I do not believe the complaints here. Do the complainers not understand that if all these manufacturers cared about was making money they'd take their money and get in another business? These folks are in this business because of their personal interest in the hobby. Believe it or not, they are doing us a favor.
I can't hold my tongue (ok, fingers) any longer. I do not believe the complaints here. Do the complainers not understand that if all these manufacturers cared about was making money they'd take their money and get in another business? These folks are in this business because of their personal interest in the hobby. Believe it or not, they are doing us a favor.
A few years ago at Trainfest in Milwaukee I was there talking to a young lady who works for Soundtraxx. At one point somebody came up and berated her for ten minutes about how Soundtraxx was ripping off the modeler and she was a greedy fat cat getting rich.After he left she deflated like a leaky balloon. I said, "Some of us at least have been through business school and understand how d@mn thin the margins are in this industry."She shook her head and said "If I wanted to make money I'd have stayed in investment banking."The best way to be a model railroad manufacturer with a million dollars is to start with two million dollars.
The willingness to produce the HUGE number of variations of a particular locomotive is amazing. If you want 4 road numbers of some esoteric Baldwin diesel with details specific to the East Podunk & Who Cares you should be willing to pre-order. Would you rather go back to fat hoods and generic details available in only Santa Fe and undec?
But what I really can't take is the suggestion of a boycott. GREAT IDEA - Let's make the manufacturers who are getting far less return on their investments than they could get elsewhere quit the business altogether. Those of us that are glad that what we want is eventually available, albeit at a higher price and slower schedule than preferred, would appreciate it if you would tone down the rhetoric.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry about people's thinking on 'how business works'. Among other things, the "customer" of a manufacturer is not the modeler, it's the distributor or retailer...
And if you want Athearn blue box kits, go to any swap meet or flea market or even model railroad shop. The CNWHS meet last weekend had a swap meet and there were several hundred Athearn Blue Box kits there, most of which had never been opened. There are two hobby shops in Minneapolis/St Paul alone that have probably over a thousand. There are Athearn blue box kits in every hobby store I've ever been in, even now. They stopped making them because people weren't buying them.
The manufacturers are doing what they are doing because they're smart, not stupid.
Texas Zepher Business 101 did't work, there would not be a single business in business in the world.
When business 101 took over common sense marketing went out the door..Profits and investors first customers last.
I think there are thousand more like I am that has had enough of these games.
As the production runs decreases the prices will escalate simply because the market will become like the brass market was..1 of 2500 made.
BTW..What new modelers? Haven't you read all the doom and gloom the hobby is dying topics because young people are not interested in trains?
BRAKIEThe unknown question is how many of us will not open their wallets to buy overpriced cars and locomotives?
Business 101 nonsense that doesn't figure in one major thing..
Again how many will refuse to open our wallets?
Young folks starting married life is already playing against a stacked deck due to the higher costs from buying a home,...
I also bet the manufactures have no clue of what my hobby budget is..They can case study and read reports until the chickens come to roost and will never know.
And as the thread topic says. It doesn't matter if we like it or not, if we agreee with it or not, it is how things are going to be for the forseeable future. All the griping in the world or saying how it "should be in our little worlds", isn't going to change it.
mlehman Also, saw several comments where people complained about pre-ordering tying up their funds. What? You need to get a better class of dealer. I never have needed to put up any funds for a pre-order from my dealers. YMMV, but if someone is asking for cash up front for a pre-order, go down the road to the next guy until you find someone who won't charge you. There are plenty of good dealers out there who won't ask you to put anything up front, just so long as you carry through with picking it up when it arrives.
I guess you live in a paradise location where you have choice and there is a shop "down the road" to go to. But I guess since folks like me don't have access to that don't count in the market?
Or the fact that while some few folks may have thousands to drop whenever they want, there are a lot more of us who might have have small layouts and buy one or two, yet our total market is greater than those guys who have a thousand to dump on a new locomotive.
Or is simply that only those who have mega basement layouts and blank check budgets matter and the rest of us simply aren't welcome in the hobby any more?
cedarwoodronJust a thought...how would that impact a close-out discounter like Train World, where they pick up some of this over-run stock and discount it out to the public?