From Enginehouse Services, an excellent hobby shop in Green Bay WI (run by a first rate modeler himself):
We have received the Athearn shipment we mentioned in our last newsletter. We still have some items left, but they are going fast, especially on our online store, since the majority of them are sold out at Horizon Hobby, the exclusive Atheran distributor. After talking to our sales rep we should see even tighter supplies in the future since Athearn has now trimmed their overruns drastically like the other manufacturers. It appears that is the trend and it is here to stay. We have been stating this phenomenon in our past newsletters and it is now here, so if you have interest in any of the preorders it is best you let us know when we can order it otherwise you take the risk of not getting them when they are released.
Dave Nelson
I know during the past few years with Atlas and Kato. They're trimming down because of overstock structures and railroad equipment (track, engines, etc). Because nobody is buying them.
I also read that it's going to continue like that in the future years to come. When you think about it. It sucks when you have no money to buy them or pre-order them. We just have to live with it.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
Athearn will discover that, just like Atlas, when you don't have any products to sell, you don't sell any products.
There are other manufacturers. I'm happier now with Accurail, Bowser and Tichy models than I ever was with Athearn blue-box.
This is a hobby, not a necessity. It's all what they call "discretionary spending." Companies need to work a little harder to attract customers, and Athearn/Horizon isn't getting that.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Just a thought...how would that impact a close-out discounter like Train World, where they pick up some of this over-run stock and discount it out to the public?
Cedarwoodron
I do not agree with the business strategy that does not leave room for inventory on shelves. I firmly believe that in order to capture new business (bring newbies into the hobby) you have to have inventory that they want to buy. Nothing is worse that going to a hobby shop and asking for a particular engine in a particular road; only to find that it hasn't been produced for years, and probably won't be produced for a number of years.
Invariably, when running trains on our modular layout for the public; someone will comment on a particular engine and note to get one of those. And you have to respond; they don't make those anymore...
Hardly surprising. When production is by a Chinese company, the American "manufacturer" is really just a distributor. And distributors are slowly being squeezed. The future is large online hobby shops buying large quantities from the manufacturer. The middlemen, i.e. distributors, go away.
The new shopping strategies are:
Buy it when you first see it.
Pre-order and hope.
Ebay.
Paul
They will always be available .... on ebay .... for a much inflated price !
Play now or pay later.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Mark R. They will always be available .... on ebay .... for a much inflated price ! Play now or pay later. Mark.
And with Athearn's on going QA/QC issues who wants to risk preordering?
I know I won't.
There's still lots of older LL P2K,BB,yellow and red box Atlas and Kato locomotives to be had and of course there's the use market..
There's Bachmann DCC on Board locomotives that comes cheap and is two steps above the older BB engines.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
eaglescoutLooks like us real modelers will be doing more paint stripping and repainting for our lines; adding details to older models and making do with train show and Ebay purchases.
On topic- Well I don't see myself buying much more of anything beyond the stuff I need/want. it's a bummer that the economics of the real world are having such a poor effect on model railroading and hobbies in general. The upside is that I can go to more trainshows now that I'm in a modular group, my haul from the trainshow in March was pretty awesome. It's something to look forwards to.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
I don't understand the comment about overstock, that no body is buying product that wasn't preorded. It seems more a case of no body can get any product because it's not on the shelves to buy. If so much overstock was sitting on shelves, then there wouldn't be so many threads here from people who can't get product. I haven't bought a new locomotive in years because I can't find one. Even tried the pre order thing and even though they held my money for months, they didn't even produce enough to cover the pre orders.
Bachmann seems to be resisting the whole pre-order business model. I thinks it's smart business on their part to have product avaibable when their competitiors are forcing customers to pre-order. It aso helps that Bachmann owns their own factories and doesn't contract outside manufacturers.
Perhaps a few others will realize that having product available might just give them a leg-up on the competition.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
Trainworld contracted with LL for a run of subway cars. they were only available at Trainworld. They sold out in a hurry, and then LL made them available to all distributers. Well and good. Then Walthers bought out LL, and while subway cars seemed to be in the offing for a while, they seem no longer to be available anywhere.
Probbly W/LL owns the tooling for those cars and so those who as want more of them are stuck.
I surely hope that Trainworld will contract with Bachmann to make more subway cars, perhaps the R-62s, but the problem may lie in the licensing for HO production. NYCT is pretty tight about licensing their stuff.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Burlington Northern #24 eaglescout Looks like us real modelers will be doing more paint stripping and repainting for our lines; adding details to older models and making do with train show and Ebay purchases. Not to detract from the topic but what is a real modeler? having to paint locos and stuff for the SP&S doesn't make me anymore of a modeler than someone who can buy the stuff or gets it painted..........
eaglescout
Not to detract from the topic but what is a real modeler? having to paint locos and stuff for the SP&S doesn't make me anymore of a modeler than someone who can buy the stuff or gets it painted..........
I respectfully take issue with your comment, Gary, as I'm a bit of a "rivet counter" when it comes to semantics. My Webster Universal Dictionary defines a modeller as one who builds models, not as one who purchases a model or hires someone else to do the modelling. To be interested in, or to own models does not constitute modelling. That said, eaglescout's inclusion of the adjective "real" could be interpreted to denigrate those who do not build models, but I don't think that was his intention, nor do I think that "modellers" are superior to non-modellers. We're all interested in the same general stuff, but each in our own manner.
Wayne
cedarwoodron wrote: Just a thought...how would that impact a close-out discounter like Train World, where they pick up some of this over-run stock and discount it out to the public?
Trainworld does pick up some overstock, I'm sure, but at the same time they are part of the first-run and probably even the pre-order market. They buy stuff from all the big manufacturers, and can negotiate good prices before an item even hits the shelves. I've looked on their web site, and I occasionally see "expected delivery" dates months out, so it's not all overstock with them.
I ordered a U28B from my LHS. This wasn't a "pre-order," strictly, because the item was announced and had a ship date, which, of course, slipped. When he gave me the price, I was shocked. He beat Trainworld's price, and not just by a couple of dollars.
doctorwayne responded: My Webster Universal Dictionary defines a modeller as one who builds models, not as one who purchases a model or hires someone else to do the modelling.
My Webster Universal Dictionary defines a modeller as one who builds models, not as one who purchases a model or hires someone else to do the modelling.
And I, to offer a third perspective, am more inclusive. I model a railroad. I put a lot of time into my structures, and literally put details into my structures, and I spend many happy hours doing scenery, laying track and wiring it all up to get the capabilities and effects I want. I build and sometimes repaint rolling stock, too. But, I buy my locomotives ready-to-run, and I don't hand-lay my track, either. I do lots of modeling, but I've got neither the time nor the inclination to build every component of my layout. I don't think that make me any less of a modeler.
Just to comment on a comment to my original posting, recall that Model Power gave as a reason for shutting down that their bank would no longer lend to an outfit that wanted to follow the "inventory on the shelves" business model.
Just to increase (?) the Memorial Day weekend joy, I just received this from another fine hobby shop, Green River in Geneseo IL: there is about to be a large (15% - 20%) price increase on Evergreen products, as well as Walthers Trainline.
tin canI do not agree with the business strategy that does not leave room for inventory on shelves. I firmly believe that in order to capture new business (bring newbies into the hobby) you have to have inventory that they want to buy. Nothing is worse that going to a hobby shop and asking for a particular engine in a particular road; only to find that it hasn't been produced for years, and probably won't be produced for a number of years.
This offers up one of the most misleading beliefs about the change in manufacturing in the last 50 years brought about be the globalized economic system.
BTW, before we get too far down this path, why should we expect model trains to be an exception to the same forces driving change in the rest of the economy. Sure, our layouts are an imaginary world, but why do so many people believe the economics of making models also exists in a fantasy world immune from the rest of the economy? It doesn't.
Back to the specifics of this issue. No one prohibits that hobby shop from buying a model for stock. Nothing. Any shop that wants to stock that model can do so by simply ordering it. Just like you or me, if it wants to stock that model, there's a good opportunity to do that.
Why blame the vendor? They want to sell what they've made and make more stuff after that. It makes no sense to fill a warehouse with stuff that might sell some day. If it was your business, your accountant would tell you you're a fool, get a grip, if that was a major part of your business plan. Yes, stuff isn't stocked for years and years. Buy it now if it appeals. If not, there will be something else later on. For those slow on the draw, there's always ebay.
And, yes, your hobby shop can choose -- or not -- to stock virtually anything. But they have to pic their choices carefully. They don't want a shop full of stuff that's not selling either. But the stock levels they carry are strictly their own choice if you see barren shelves.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
doctorwayne Burlington Northern #24 eaglescout Looks like us real modelers will be doing more paint stripping and repainting for our lines; adding details to older models and making do with train show and Ebay purchases. Not to detract from the topic but what is a real modeler? having to paint locos and stuff for the SP&S doesn't make me anymore of a modeler than someone who can buy the stuff or gets it painted.......... I respectfully take issue with your comment, Gary, as I'm a bit of a "rivet counter" when it comes to semantics. My Webster Universal Dictionary defines a modeller as one who builds models, not as one who purchases a model or hires someone else to do the modelling. To be interested in, or to own models does not constitute modelling. That said, eaglescout's inclusion of the adjective "real" could be interpreted to denigrate those who do not build models, but I don't think that was his intention, nor do I think that "modellers" are superior to non-modellers. We're all interested in the same general stuff, but each in our own manner. Wayne
As for the building of models, give me some time and I'll start making SP&S passenger cars 1 by 1. baggage cars first. Wish me luck! I've done aircraft models, so by the dictionary definition aren't we all modelers? everyone has done something involving the making of a model.
Mr. B I agree with you.
mlehmanBack to the specifics of this issue. No one prohibits that hobby shop from buying a model for stock. Nothing. Any shop that wants to stock that model can do so by simply ordering it. Just like you or me, if it wants to stock that model, there's a good opportunity to do that.
That they can..
But,here lays the trap every small mom and pop shop faces..
Do they buy stock and sell at full MSRP or 10% off knowing full well that on line stores can order bulk shipments and sell for far less?
I'm not sure if I would care to tie up my limited business funds on the high hopes a customer will buy that engine or car.I would even sweat the preorders since the customer can refuse deliverly for any or no reason at all.
It seems to me the playing field is slanted toward the bigger on line shops that has the per capitol to buy bulk instead of a measly case or perhaps less of preorders.
MisterBeasleyThis is a hobby, not a necessity.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
mlehman tin can I do not agree with the business strategy that does not leave room for inventory on shelves. I firmly believe that in order to capture new business (bring newbies into the hobby) you have to have inventory that they want to buy. Nothing is worse that going to a hobby shop and asking for a particular engine in a particular road; only to find that it hasn't been produced for years, and probably won't be produced for a number of years. This offers up one of the most misleading beliefs about the change in manufacturing in the last 50 years brought about be the globalized economic system. BTW, before we get too far down this path, why should we expect model trains to be an exception to the same forces driving change in the rest of the economy. Sure, our layouts are an imaginary world, but why do so many people believe the economics of making models also exists in a fantasy world immune from the rest of the economy? It doesn't. Back to the specifics of this issue. No one prohibits that hobby shop from buying a model for stock. Nothing. Any shop that wants to stock that model can do so by simply ordering it. Just like you or me, if it wants to stock that model, there's a good opportunity to do that. Why blame the vendor? They want to sell what they've made and make more stuff after that. It makes no sense to fill a warehouse with stuff that might sell some day. If it was your business, your accountant would tell you you're a fool, get a grip, if that was a major part of your business plan. Yes, stuff isn't stocked for years and years. Buy it now if it appeals. If not, there will be something else later on. For those slow on the draw, there's always ebay. And, yes, your hobby shop can choose -- or not -- to stock virtually anything. But they have to pic their choices carefully. They don't want a shop full of stuff that's not selling either. But the stock levels they carry are strictly their own choice if you see barren shelves.
tin can I do not agree with the business strategy that does not leave room for inventory on shelves. I firmly believe that in order to capture new business (bring newbies into the hobby) you have to have inventory that they want to buy. Nothing is worse that going to a hobby shop and asking for a particular engine in a particular road; only to find that it hasn't been produced for years, and probably won't be produced for a number of years.
If you want to be in business, you have to accept some level of financial risk. You develop a product or service and hope to find clients who want or need that product or service. There is always some level of up front investment for the equipment, tools and supplies you need to provide your product or service. Even a kid who mows neighborhood lawns to make money needs a lawn mower and gas to provide such service. If you want to talk about an extremely risky business, try housing development. Builders borrow millions to construct a tract of homes they hope they can sell at a certain price. However, as the project may take a couple years to finish, the economy can take a swing up or down affecting the final selling price. Time your project start just before an economy upswing and you're in fat city as you have buyers fighting to pay the inflated prices for the available units. Start your project just before the economy tanks (and who can accurately predict such a downturn) and you're in deep doo-doo. The bank wants their money back but you can't sell your product. Its just the risk of doing business. Can you imagine going into WalMart and being told you have to pre-order your laundry detergent or a pair of pants? They would be out of business so fast K-Mart could make a comeback! If model manufacturers do not want to shoulder the financial risk of simply doing good business, it's time for them to do something else. Asking the customer to shoulder the financial risk through pre-orders is simply poor business practice that will eventually come back to bite them in the ass!
As the only customers these companies have, why are modellers expected to just roll over and accept the situation? Has nobody in this hobby heard of boycotts and other means to get a business to listen to its customers? Why does MTH face such stiff opposition from the scale modelers market? Because modelers generally don't like the "we're superior" proprietary approach and "take it or leave it" attitude of MTH and so many modelers refuse to purchase their products. Did this attitude develop because MTH is a relative newcomer to the scale market and took this approach from the beginning? Do we not boycott older model manufacturers because they used to provide adequate product volume and we hope that, if we offer them our hard-earned money and don't offend them by actually expecting to recieve a product, they'll decide to do so again? If I don't like a business' products or services, I don't purchase them. It's pretty simple folks.
Hornblower
The companies might have not realized it yet, but they have shot themselves in the foot. Hobby shops havebeen forced to close, so not as many people see the products, and they don't get interested in model railroading. I use to love going into a hobby shop and looking around (before I moved to Hawaii). It was Tom's Train Station in Cary, NC. That's part of how I got into the hobby. Sadly now they are closing. Now you have to search for places that will sell you MRR supplies. Hobby shops are now more of a hobby for the owner.
Prices are expensive, and it is hard to find products. Hobby shops might go extinct. If companies demand more preorders, no new people will enter the hobby, and it may eventually die out. That's bad for business, you take out your costumer base. Yet, they still do it.
hornblowerAs the only customers these companies have, why are modellers expected to just roll over and accept the situation?
hornblowerIf you want to be in business, you have to accept some level of financial risk. You develop a product or service and hope to find clients who want or need that product or service
hornblower Can you imagine going into WalMart and being told you have to pre-order your laundry detergent or a pair of pants? They would be out of business so fast K-Mart could make a comeback! If model manufacturers do not want to shoulder the financial risk of simply doing good business, it's time for them to do something else. Asking the customer to shoulder the financial risk through pre-orders is simply poor business practice that will eventually come back to bite them in the ass!
hornblowerDo we not boycott older model manufacturers because they used to provide adequate product volume and we hope that, if we offer them our hard-earned money and don't offend them by actually expecting to recieve a product, they'll decide to do so again? If I don't like a business' products or services, I don't purchase them. It's pretty simple folks
It's about time someone said some of this. The current marketing concept of intentionally shorting the market because these importers are afraid of having a hundred unspoken for engines left over has pretty much made me leave the market. It used to be the seller tried to please the buyer if he wanted a loyal customer base. Now the approach seems to be "if I'm going to do you the favor of taking your money the least you can do is snap to and maybe, possibly even probably, I will provide what you've been waiting impatiently for. But you better be quick on your feet."
I just won't play that game. Now if there's something I really want I look for it at swap meets or online and might check when I'm a hobby shop. Most of what I'm looking for has been out of production for years anyway, and there's a good sized hobby shop stacked up in the basement. And there's still a considerable number of companies that treat customers with some consideration, which certainly earns my business. Can you imagine contacting CVP or NCE or Digitrax for a DCC set and being told "You can't get that. We sold out. If you sign up now we can get you a set when we rerun them in 2017"?
I'm just a little surprised that so many modelers not only accept the limited run, reserve well in advance sales model but actually defend it. It's fine if you like. Go for it. To me it just seems offputting.
It appears to me that this whole thing is caused by adversion to risk, in plain english, no one at any level, wants to be left with any unsold merchandise. This has become more extreme since the economy last tanked back in 2006-2008. What's next, having to enter a lottery to be elegible to buy something from the next limited run?
MB Klein's selling out so fast, that by the time i check their new arrivals (almost daily), much is already out of stock. I suppose they are either getting shorted, or ordering less. It's at the point where if you don't pre order, you are not going to find it on the primary market.
It is what it is, but until trends change..........
Joe
Bottom line...........You want it, buy it, or pre-order it up front. You can solve all your woes, of course, by manufacturing your own favorite models with a million dollar startup and see what the current world of real economics is all about and still have modelers whinning about your methods and best intentioned efforts in a simple and reasonable bid to turn your million dollar investment into a business that survives.
The old days are gone and will not be back. Good solid hobby shops, catering to the MR, are rare and are an endangered species. The very best LHS would never and could never stock more than .05% of every thing on the MR market at any given moment.
Order on line from an image on the world wide web or e-bay and trust the seller to do right by you. It's a crap shoot, but it is pretty much the only game in town, unless you luck out at a big train show. (still another crap shoot)
We all want what we want and we want to look it over, touch it, see it run. I long ago grew up and realized I would never walk into any local shop and see 10 different HOn3 engines and two shelves filled with HOn3 car kits and RTR cars.
Currently, we must ferret out what we need and want from on line dealers, on line sales on e-bay and the better train shows. If there is a local hobby shop that even carries train stuff, we are blessed to find a pack or two of the kadee couplers we use and maybe some matt medium and a bag of useful ballast.
Things may not be as bad as we think and the old days were never as shiney as we remember, but they are different and it is an adapt or die world....or go begging.
Many complaining here have already adapted in many ways and know their needed work arounds to win what they need. They just wish it were a lot easier, simpler, involved zero risk and zero wait time with a friendly hand shake from a smiling, trusted seller's face.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
tin canI do not agree with the business strategy that does not leave room for inventory on shelves.
I guess I don't see where there's no room to do this. It's just that many shop owners now choose to not order for stock. It not like the vendors can keep a shop from ordering for stock.
tin canI firmly believe that in order to capture new business (bring newbies into the hobby) you have to have inventory that they want to buy.
tin canI said I disagree with the strategy. Everything you say is spot on, except you ignore my second sentence. It is my opinion, but my opinion is based upon prior experience as a hobby shop owner; then extensive study of the hobby industry & e-commerce as part of a MBA I earned after my experience as hobby shop owner.
I guess I'm still struggling with what exactly you're trying to get across then with that second sentence. I don't think you're actually saying you have to stock everything just in case a customer may buy it someday. That's just not going to work. Maybe you're arguing that shops should pay attention to what their customers are interested in buying and stock accordingly? I certainly agree with that.
b60bpIt used to be the seller tried to please the buyer if he wanted a loyal customer base.
It seems to me that customers have gradually "trained" the sellers into their current supply method. It used to be that customers on the whole displayed loyalty towards both outlets and brands, however, nowadays most customers prefer to buy on much more on the basis of price more than anything else
b60bpCan you imagine contacting CVP or NCE or Digitrax for a DCC set and being told "You can't get that. We sold out. If you sign up now we can get you a set when we rerun them in 2017"?
The "model parts" business has always been quite different to the "complete model business," so that comparision is fatally flawed.
{I admit to not reading every single reply here so forgive if repeat}
People have often complained about the "hobby is getting to expensive".
It is all relatively simple:
Everything in economics, and thusly business, comes down to the basic "supply and demand" rules.
One way to create "demand' is to dry up "supply"!
If there is pent-up "demand", there will be little need for "stale inventory" inhibiting NEW "supply" sales.
{It also helps in "rotating stock", no rotation necessary if the shelf is bare when new product comes in}
It ALSO has the side effect of allowing suppliers to INCREASE prices due to high demand, and then we get yet another thread started here about "the high cost of the hobby".
There are two major things that cost companies money: one is unused stale inventory {there are no reorders when there is inventory, it costs warehousing fees to keep}; and the other, unfortuatnely, is the HUMAN work force {who want money and keep driving up the wage base, who call in sick and who can't be "overworked" any more, but a ROBOT can}
JIT {Just In Time} "inventory" or supplies is the new trend to keep from warehousing inventory, either stale or new.
WE, must adapt to the new ways of doing things....and As the Star Trek Borg says" resistance is futile".
So, next time you see a "preorder" that never gets made due to lack of demand; or a blank spot in supply, remember, it is creating no supply OR pent-up demand.
{I paid a lot of money in college to take the economics courses, maybe I should charge for things such as this????}
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.