narrow gauge nuclearBottom line...........You want it, buy it, or pre-order it up front. You can solve all your woes, of course, by manufacturing your own favorite models with a million dollar startup and see what the current world of real economics is all about and still have modelers whinning about your methods and best intentioned efforts in a simple and reasonable bid to turn your million dollar investment into a business that survives.
And the real bottom line is you don't need to play their stupid game..I stop buying overprice cars and bought one new release Athearn engine in the last 12 months..I don't plan on buying any more.
Keep jacking the prices while cutting production and sooner or later it will bite you..You will lose customers since nobody will be able to afford your very limited overprice product or will be willing to buy sight unseen because of possible QA/QC issues..
I can't and will never support that type of stupidity where a bad engine can't be replace because its "sold out" and there is currently no parts availible.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
This talk of NOT Buying and the prices will come down is kind of a JOKE!
What I mean by that is as more of us retired (and I am in the group now) and get fully setteled into the Retired Life -
Have a lot of disposable Income and have no problem laying out 2 or 3 Thousand Dollars for new engines.
As MORE of these people RETIRE this is only going to get worse (for lack of a better term) and the Model MFG are BANKING on this idea!
Those of US that are not quite that high on the Retirement Money Pole are again trying to play a RICH MANS GAME!
We can talk all we want about doing things on the CHEAP and YES - It can be done (as I have been doing it for years) but it would not have been easy if I had to pay Retail for everything NEW that I wanted.
Getting it at Hobby Shop COST made the difference as now I could compete with the well endowded Retires with Lots of Extra Dollars to spend (but they have to purchase at Retail).
But as I stated - the MFG are not dummys and they have access to what the General RETIRED Population has available to use as DEPOSABLE INCOME as that info is available from the Gonverment and many other agencies.
Most all on these Forums have no idea what type of info is available for MFG to plan their products around and PRICE POINTS to decide what they have to have to make a profit and who they figure will be able to purchase the products they make!
WE - the consumer - will just have to pay the price or play the GAME on E-bay or the USED market to get what we want at a reduced cost - so we don't use up ALL of out limited Retirement Funds!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
cmrproductsBut as I stated - the MFG are not dummys and they have access to what the General RETIRED Population has available to use as DEPOSABLE INCOME as that info is available from the Gonverment and many other agencies.
True enough.
But..
The unknown question is how many of us will not open their wallets to buy overpriced cars and locomotives?
Why?
The majority of us in the retirement bracket that's been in the hobby for decades probably have more then we can use and have no need to play any game.
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Business 101 nonsense that doesn't figure in one major thing..
Again how many will refuse to open our wallets?
Young folks starting married life is already playing against a stacked deck due to the higher costs from buying a home,buying every day things,planing retirement,college funds for the kids and general saving in case their weekly check suddenly stops..
I also bet the manufactures have no clue of what my hobby budget is..They can case study and read reports until the chickens come to roost and will never know.
Some observations from the "soon-to-be-extinct" middle class:
I remain an avid kitbasher, old stuff-repurposer, swap meet buyer and frugal modeler because I have developed the skills sets required to do my own thing for pretty much the range of activities I personally need to do to successfully enjoy the hobby. Others may have advanced far beyond me in this aspect, but my modeling growth is fueled by economics as much as personal hands-on satisfaction.
My days of looking at the online Train World ads and buying a certain dollar amount of new stuff are gone- they disappeared when the old LL Proto 1000 RDC's left the low $20's and started pricing at the $100-levels. As I am still working and five years away from retirement, I cannot afford to outlay $ on pre-orders of anything and let that money disappear for x months, hoping for something to be delivered whenever- I will do without, in that case. As is the case with many other modelers, the cash flow of my required expenses of daily life prohibits such discretionary economic behavior (not to mention my wife!).
Given the small subset of the marketplace that model railroading represents, changes in business practices which mimic larger "manufacter-distributor-retailer-customer" relationships reflect the modern realities of the nature of our small sector, which used to be part of the "toy" market many decades ago. (See how Walmart is slowly squeezing out Toys-R-Us and restricting major catergories of toy purchases to those marketed in synch with movies, etc; when was the last time you saw a Barbie commercial on Saturday morning TV, for example???). If one thinks that a boycott or letter-writing campaign will contravene business decisions made for preservation of the manufacturer's profit margin, think again.
Our hobby products do not cross over in the sociopoitical arena of health and welfare or such considerations, and therefore, boycotts, etc. do not have enough ability to make an impression on buying practices of individuals, even marginally. I see ten RC customers for every 1 model railroad customer (as an anecdotal visual measure) when I am in the local Hobbytoen store- how much larger is their (RC) hobby presence, in general terms, relative to ours...).
E-Bay is probably getting more model railroad discretionary money passsing through it's electronic kiosk daily than a number of model railroad manufacturers are (just my guess, but based on the short term sales of things at inflated prices I monitor when I window shop there). Some of us limited budgeteers will go to E-Bay first, before sending out money for a promise (pre-orders). I have done this several times, and at least I have received the merchandise in 10 days or less, versus waiting for months. (If I wanted a hobby that moved at glacial speeds, I would move back up north to "Frostbite Falls" and live for the winter!).
And finally- we are all model railroaders- train chasers, photographers, hands-on guys, collectors, RTR-only modelers, rivet counters, armchair specialists, etc. Let's not start "differentiating" and tribalizing ourselves!
Cedarwoodron
cedarwoodron If one thinks that a boycott or letter-writing campaign will contravene business decisions made for preservation of the manufacturer's profit margin, think again.
I know where a boycott crippled a rather large business until they sit a wrong to right.
If you get enough folks to join a boycott is a terrible thing that gets a company's attention just like the above company that thought they was above their customers.
BTW.Corporate entered the pictures and some high management types was shown the door..
I'm a simple unsophisticated man, who likes model trains. If they get to smart, I'll go back to painting boot by boot, face by face, gaming. It must be hard to earn a crust producing products in this game. That said, the manufactures do a mighty job to just turn over a $. More f7s. Freight ..... !
MisterBeasley cedarwoodron wrote: Just a thought...how would that impact a close-out discounter like Train World, where they pick up some of this over-run stock and discount it out to the public? Trainworld does pick up some overstock, I'm sure, but at the same time they are part of the first-run and probably even the pre-order market. They buy stuff from all the big manufacturers, and can negotiate good prices before an item even hits the shelves. I've looked on their web site, and I occasionally see "expected delivery" dates months out, so it's not all overstock with them. ...
cedarwoodron wrote: Just a thought...how would that impact a close-out discounter like Train World, where they pick up some of this over-run stock and discount it out to the public?
Just a thought...how would that impact a close-out discounter like Train World, where they pick up some of this over-run stock and discount it out to the public?
Trainworld does pick up some overstock, I'm sure, but at the same time they are part of the first-run and probably even the pre-order market. They buy stuff from all the big manufacturers, and can negotiate good prices before an item even hits the shelves. I've looked on their web site, and I occasionally see "expected delivery" dates months out, so it's not all overstock with them.
...
This is so, Mr. B. I ordered both the newest J Class and the latest NYC Hudson two years ago, and just got them least year from trainworld. I believe I waited for darned near a year, and they beat the purported/advertised MSRP posted by BLI by a reasonable margin. Later on, you can get it at BLI's refurbished site, or even cheaper NIB from hogtrainz and trainworld.
BRAKIE True enough. But.. The unknown question is how many of us will not open their wallets to buy overpriced cars and locomotives? Why? The majority of us in the retirement bracket that's been in the hobby for decades probably have more then we can use and have no need to play any game. ---------------------------------------------- Most all on these Forums have no idea what type of info is available for MFG to plan their products around and PRICE POINTS to decide what they have to have to make a profit and who they figure will be able to purchase the products they make! ------------------------------------------------ Business 101 nonsense that doesn't figure in one major thing.. Again how many will refuse to open our wallets? Young folks starting married life is already playing against a stacked deck due to the higher costs from buying a home,buying every day things,planing retirement,college funds for the kids and general saving in case their weekly check suddenly stops.. I also bet the manufactures have no clue of what my hobby budget is..They can case study and read reports until the chickens come to roost and will never know.
Appeariently there are a LARGE Majority that are doing just that - Opening the Wallent and out comes the Credit Cards!
I watched a number of CUstomers at a LIONEL/MTH only Hobby Shop making purchases and the DOLLAR amoutns were STAGGERING - 4 or 5 MTL O Gauge engines at $1500.00 each and they did not flinch at the price - and this wasn't just ONE CUSTOMER!
While I do not layout tons of money - there are way too many that HAVE Large amounts of MONEY that are keeping the Model MFG in business!
Start a campain to get the MFG to lower their prices - see how far that goes - while you sited just one case!
The MFG would rather go out of business than lose money and no matter how many of us would write to complain they are NOT going to lose money!
And IF the Company is a Stock Traded Money - and I have money infested in them
THEY HAD BETTER be making ME MONEY!
So I don't care what THEY have to do to make ME MONEY - they better OR!
I will invest my MONEY some place else that WILL - MAKE ME MONEY!
Unfortnately - few of the Model MFG are a publically traded companys.
So the above does not apply to me - BUT!
This is the current trend in the market place
MAKING MONEY for the INVESTORS at all COST !
Doesnt matter if we won't be in business next year - we sure made money for the INVESTORS!
Do the auto manufacturers sell out on all models? Do they fill only pre-orders? Do they have a formula that seems to keep them solvent from production year to production year where what they produce is gone within 10 months to within a couple dozen units? I would expect the answer to be largely no on all counts with the exception of a SWAG after the previous units sold is known. I don't think it's a very healthy state these past seven years, and they have gone begging as a result.
BLI and Atlas can't afford to flood markets and shelves with plenty of cheap stuff because too many in the hobby just don't want it...at any price. The hobby has picked up gee-whizzers who like sound, nifty applied details, and the systems to control them. They want fly-by-wire/radio ready-to-go stuff that provides instant fun and looks good while in motion or still. They carry smartphones that will soon also wipe their butts for them. How kewl is THAT!
The pre-order model seems to work. If it didn't, only one or two would be hangers-on, and not leading the pack into it.
selectorThe pre-order model seems to work. If it didn't, only one or two would be hangers-on, and not leading the pack into it.
Exactly.
Like it or not, that's how it works. Some people may yearn for the days when Uncle Irv made that boxcar in one roadnumber, filled a warehouse full of them, then sold it for the next decade. I suppose that made some folks feel good, knowing they could get that particular car if they ordered it over that 10 year period.
Personally, I'd much rather see the multiple variants that will be seen if that car was made in several smaller runs with different road numbers etc.
And if anyone thinks the limited run thing is new, it's not. It's just that they make the number of units they think will sell in a year or less, sometimes even just what was pre-ordered, so the runs are smaller and, well, people notice when they run out.
Also, saw several comments where people complained about pre-ordering tying up their funds. What? You need to get a better class of dealer. I never have needed to put up any funds for a pre-order from my dealers. YMMV, but if someone is asking for cash up front for a pre-order, go down the road to the next guy until you find someone who won't charge you. There are plenty of good dealers out there who won't ask you to put anything up front, just so long as you carry through with picking it up when it arrives.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
cmrproductsI watched a number of CUstomers at a LIONEL/MTH only Hobby Shop making purchases and the DOLLAR amoutns were STAGGERING - 4 or 5 MTL O Gauge engines at $1500.00 each and they did not flinch at the price - and this wasn't just ONE CUSTOMER!
I've been to Lionel collectors meets..Rich old men with bottomless pockets playing "Emperor of the Lionel collectors"..I even told my friend that...
As example and I remember this well my friend bought a old 1950 era boxcar for $175.00 and didn't bat a eye and told me that was a good deal..Well not in my book but,I know very little of Lionel collecting.
As far as investors a Investors Group bought Horizon and this may be a start of getting their investment back-raise prices and cut production?
They did return Horizon to handling R/C stuff and let Athearn handle the trains..
If that is good,bad or down right ugly we will see in the coming months.
mlehmanAlso, saw several comments where people complained about pre-ordering tying up their funds. What? You need to get a better class of dealer. I never have needed to put up any funds for a pre-order from my dealers. YMMV, but if someone is asking for cash up front for a pre-order, go down the road to the next guy until you find someone who won't charge you.
Mike,There is a reason for that..Many mom and pop shops don't have the per capitol these days or afraid they will be left holding the bag when the modeler either refuses the order because this or that rivet or some such isn't 100% correct,refused because of a a QA/QC problem or the customer simply changes their mind.
And then you have your limited operating funds sitting on the shelf collecting dust or put it on e-Bay and hope you break even after the dust settles...
What none of you seem to understand is the world as we know it is changing! We are entering a phase of internet Mom & Pop stores and internet mega stores and no one wants to be left holding the bag for the old way of doing buisness. Like all eras of first adapters, some of these are making fistfuls of cash. There are a couple of people on e-bay that command up to $150 a car for accuate well weathered resin kits cars made RTR and there are lots of value added internet shops that will custom paint or install decoders or (you get the picture). This dose not take into effect that we will soon be able to 3D print what we want. If you follow the 3D news you relize that now they can print in metal and they can do detail that would make a craftsman proud and the cost is coming down daily (daily is not a misprint).
BRAKIEMike,There is a reason for that..Many mom and pop shops don't have the per capitol these days or afraid they will be left holding the bag when the modeler either refuses the order because this or that rivet or some such isn't 100% correct,refused because of a a QA/QC problem or the customer simply changes their mind.
That may be the reason why a shop does it, but it's no reason to shop there. In my mind, that's a self-defeating business strategy. When a shop does that, it either discourages or drives away business, simply putting them in an even worse position.
As for anyone claiming they refuse a model because it's not 100% correct, well, might as well just fold the tent and go home. No one has made such a model at any price. People who use that as an excuse are generally covering for something else, as in "I ordered too much stuff..." Again, that's no one's fault but their own. Yes, things happen -- job loss, illness, death in the family, etc -- but if you're taking care of your customers, they'll take care of you.
The shop has no money out, either, on most of their pre-orders. Whjy charge the customer for that?
Finally, if a model does come in and it's not up to reasonable expectations (I'll exclude the 100% accurate thing as unreasonable IMO), then it's reasonable to refuse it. A vendor will take back damaged or irrgular merchandise in almost every case I know of, again if it's a reasonable situation. True, in cases where a run is basically sold out, you may not get a second chance at a good item after refusing one over QC and have to go to ebay, etc IF you absolutely have to have a model. But if you act fast, there usually are a few extras, get them before someone else does by picking up and inspecting your order promptly on arrival.
Finally, with most of these limited runs, the only thing really limited in the long run is how a model is decorated. True, a specific roadnumber or paint scheme may not be repeated, especially if it's an unusual version. But the underlying car is offered again and again so that the costs of the molds and tooling can be written off. If a little paint and some decals to get one done the way you like it are too insurmountable a hill for your skill set, then have someone else do that for you. Those warehouses full of several years' stock of model railroad items aren't coming back.
mlehmanAs for anyone claiming they refuse a model because it's not 100% correct, well, might as well just fold the tent and go home. No one has made such a model at any price. People who use that as an excuse are generally covering for something else, as in "I ordered too much stuff..."
I agree but,I recall some of the product bashing on the old Atlas forum and many claim they sent their engine(s) back for this or that reason or simply refuse to buy it because a tiny part was broken off or a QA/QC problem.
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As far as limited runs..How many of these have you seen on the use shelf,at train shows or on e-Bay? Like the N&W HH GP30 they're hard to come by.I paid a whooping $65.00 for it.
Shall we call this a very limited one time limited run?
BRAKIEI also bet the manufactures have no clue of what my hobby budget is..
Given that you've made it clear that you aren't interested in participating in the current-production market for Model Railroad stuff, the manufacturers are probably not in the slightest bit interested in your hobby budget!
BRAKIEThey can case study and read reports until the chickens come to roost and will never know.
Businesses care about people who will actually spend money for their particular good or service - Hobby manufacturing is not a public service!
Software Tools BRAKIE I also bet the manufactures have no clue of what my hobby budget is.. Given that you've made it clear that you aren't interested in participating in the current-production market for Model Railroad stuff, the manufacturers are probably not in the slightest bit interested in your hobby budget! BRAKIE They can case study and read reports until the chickens come to roost and will never know. Businesses care about people who will actually spend money for their particular good or service - Hobby manufacturing is not a public service!
BRAKIE I also bet the manufactures have no clue of what my hobby budget is..
BRAKIE They can case study and read reports until the chickens come to roost and will never know.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Software ToolsGiven that you've made it clear that you aren't interested in participating in the current-production market for Model Railroad stuff, the manufacturers are probably not in the slightest bit interested in your hobby budget
Sure they are..I suspect they wondering what it will take to get me to open my wallet and buy their new products.
A blue Aberdeen & Rockfish boxcar would be a excellent way for me to spend some of my moldy hobby money on their new releases.
A Seaboard System GP9 might perk my interest enough to cause me to spend a large sum of that moldy money..
Another thing that doesn't help is Athearn announced road names for their PS 5344 50' Boxcars.
I already have three of those road names on my older Roundhouse boxcars and the car with the patch road name doesn't interest me.
BRAKIESure they are..I suspect they wondering what it will take to get me to open my wallet and buy their new products.
Since the products being made new today are largely selling out to customers who they can readily get to part with their $, that's quite unlikley.
Software Tools BRAKIE Sure they are..I suspect they wondering what it will take to get me to open my wallet and buy their new products. Since the products being made new today are largely selling out to customers who they can readily get to part with their $, that's quite unlikley.
BRAKIE Sure they are..I suspect they wondering what it will take to get me to open my wallet and buy their new products.
I notice a lot of new release items are still in stock at MBK and other on line shops..
Say as you will but,I suspect there are thousands that has tighten the hold on their hobby dollars.
Here's the rub..They need us as a customer-we don't need them.Sears,K-Mart,Radio Shack,Best Buys among others has learned that lesson well.Model manufacturers isn't above that lesson since they depend on us spending our hobby dollars on their products.
Every lost sale is lost money and lost money has a way of turning the bottom line red and no company can survive in the red for long-banks and investors get dicey over such things..
Some manufacturers (importers) are eliminating all sales through distributors and hobby shops and selling only direct to the consumer -- Exact Rail was the first, but probably won't be the last.
cacole Some manufacturers (importers) are eliminating all sales through distributors and hobby shops and selling only direct to the consumer -- Exact Rail was the first, but probably won't be the last.
As it stands now the majority of the manufacturers sells through their web page.
However.
I fully agree with your assessment. Its just a matter of time.
cedarwoodronJust a thought...how would that impact a close-out discounter like Train World, where they pick up some of this over-run stock and discount it out to the public?
mlehman Also, saw several comments where people complained about pre-ordering tying up their funds. What? You need to get a better class of dealer. I never have needed to put up any funds for a pre-order from my dealers. YMMV, but if someone is asking for cash up front for a pre-order, go down the road to the next guy until you find someone who won't charge you. There are plenty of good dealers out there who won't ask you to put anything up front, just so long as you carry through with picking it up when it arrives.
I guess you live in a paradise location where you have choice and there is a shop "down the road" to go to. But I guess since folks like me don't have access to that don't count in the market?
Or the fact that while some few folks may have thousands to drop whenever they want, there are a lot more of us who might have have small layouts and buy one or two, yet our total market is greater than those guys who have a thousand to dump on a new locomotive.
Or is simply that only those who have mega basement layouts and blank check budgets matter and the rest of us simply aren't welcome in the hobby any more?
BRAKIEThe unknown question is how many of us will not open their wallets to buy overpriced cars and locomotives?
Young folks starting married life is already playing against a stacked deck due to the higher costs from buying a home,...
And as the thread topic says. It doesn't matter if we like it or not, if we agreee with it or not, it is how things are going to be for the forseeable future. All the griping in the world or saying how it "should be in our little worlds", isn't going to change it.
Texas Zepher Business 101 did't work, there would not be a single business in business in the world.
When business 101 took over common sense marketing went out the door..Profits and investors first customers last.
I think there are thousand more like I am that has had enough of these games.
As the production runs decreases the prices will escalate simply because the market will become like the brass market was..1 of 2500 made.
BTW..What new modelers? Haven't you read all the doom and gloom the hobby is dying topics because young people are not interested in trains?
I don't know whether to laugh or cry about people's thinking on 'how business works'. Among other things, the "customer" of a manufacturer is not the modeler, it's the distributor or retailer...
And if you want Athearn blue box kits, go to any swap meet or flea market or even model railroad shop. The CNWHS meet last weekend had a swap meet and there were several hundred Athearn Blue Box kits there, most of which had never been opened. There are two hobby shops in Minneapolis/St Paul alone that have probably over a thousand. There are Athearn blue box kits in every hobby store I've ever been in, even now. They stopped making them because people weren't buying them.
The manufacturers are doing what they are doing because they're smart, not stupid.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
I can't hold my tongue (ok, fingers) any longer. I do not believe the complaints here. Do the complainers not understand that if all these manufacturers cared about was making money they'd take their money and get in another business? These folks are in this business because of their personal interest in the hobby. Believe it or not, they are doing us a favor.
The willingness to produce the HUGE number of variations of a particular locomotive is amazing. If you want 4 road numbers of some esoteric Baldwin diesel with details specific to the East Podunk & Who Cares you should be willing to pre-order. Would you rather go back to fat hoods and generic details available in only Santa Fe and undec?
But what I really can't take is the suggestion of a boycott. GREAT IDEA - Let's make the manufacturers who are getting far less return on their investments than they could get elsewhere quit the business altogether. Those of us that are glad that what we want is eventually available, albeit at a higher price and slower schedule than preferred, would appreciate it if you would tone down the rhetoric.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
carl425 I can't hold my tongue (ok, fingers) any longer. I do not believe the complaints here. Do the complainers not understand that if all these manufacturers cared about was making money they'd take their money and get in another business? These folks are in this business because of their personal interest in the hobby. Believe it or not, they are doing us a favor.
A few years ago at Trainfest in Milwaukee I was there talking to a young lady who works for Soundtraxx. At one point somebody came up and berated her for ten minutes about how Soundtraxx was ripping off the modeler and she was a greedy fat cat getting rich.After he left she deflated like a leaky balloon. I said, "Some of us at least have been through business school and understand how d@mn thin the margins are in this industry."She shook her head and said "If I wanted to make money I'd have stayed in investment banking."The best way to be a model railroad manufacturer with a million dollars is to start with two million dollars.
With the computer age the manufacturing industry went to "just on time delivery" of parts and supplies for their plants. This meant nothing was sitting on the shelf waiting to be used. In other words no capital was sitting idle.
Now move ahead a couple of decades and everyone is online. This means if Brent wants a CPR Selkirk he had better preorder it and we will send it to him when we do a run of that engine. The engine will go immediatly from manufacture to Brents layout without sitting on a shelf somewhere tying up our capital.
A little understanding of corporate law and common sense will tell you that management (by law) is required to make a decision that is in the best interest of the shareholders. If that means no more brick and morter stores, so be it. A corporation is a piece of paper in a drawer in some government office someplace. There is no emotional response you can get from it. The bottom line is what decides how business is carried on and as a shareholder I am happy with that. So let's stop whining and carry on.
We are free to buy or not to buy. We are free to make more money if we need more. Or sit in front of the TV for hours on end and be happy with what we have.
Personally I am delighted to have the option of shopping all over the world and have it show up a couple of days later. I bought the kids a new pool two weeks ago. Ordered it from someplace in the S.E. of the U.S. and it showed up five days later on the West coast of Canada. I saved $1200.00 over the best in store deal I could get here. It weighs 600LBS. in the box. I'm glad I didn't have to take it through the check out.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."