In the recent thread about another hobby shop closing, I was reminded why I dislike the current state of the model train industry and why I think it is bad for the hobby.
Back in the dark ages of the hobby, when you HAD to build kits and most were of marginal prototype accuracy, at least you could count on those same products being available when you wanted them.
MB Klein had nearly every Blue box Athearn car or engine in stock most of the time. Regional distributors suppling local hobby shops had good inventories of Atlas track, Kadee, Cal Scale, Athearn, Roundhouse, etc, etc.
But today, a modeler has few "staple" items he can count on being able to buy at his local hobby shop - think maybe that has something to do with so many of them closing?
I know this much - if I was getting into this hobby today, and did not own one model train yet, a quick survey of the products in stock at Walthers or MB Klein, or Trainworld, then compared to a list of what has been made in the last five years, would likely cause me to rethink my interest in this hobby.
And right now, as a modeler who has most of the model trains I want, if that was not the case, I might be selling off the rest and finding a new hobby?
What good is a set of XYZ passenger cars with no XYZ locomotives? In the old days you could sit down with the Walthers catalog and plan your layout and your purchases - today you cannot "plan" anything since who knows when what will show up from where?
And this rant is not about prices - this has never been a cheap hobby - and it never will be. But if you simply can't get the stuff, or even know it might be comming, or worse yet it was made but now you can't buy a new one (I'm not much for buying others used junk), it does not matter what it costs.
Some of you likely noticed a much "smaller" activity level by me on this forum, something some of you are no doubt happy about. Well stay happy, because I recently decided to carefully limit my time on here, spend more time actually modeling, limit all other "social" aspects of model railroading, and focus on completing more of the modeling projects and goals that originally drew me to this hobby.
And guess what? Most of those projects and goals were invisioned decades ago, some are complete, some are well under way, some are still in boxes, but nearly all of those goals and projects do not involve preordered RTR models, DCC/sound, collecting an array of "famous" locomotives, or wondering if ABC will make XYZ for that spot in my roster or space on my layout.
To repeat, if I had to start fresh in this hobby tomorrow, I don't think I would bother.
Sheldon
I agree that things aren't as available as they used to be, but I also do not think it is limited to our hobby. Store shelves in general have less variety on them. They carry fewer and less variety because having a high inventory is costly and with low margins, they have to keep costs down.
Yes, there has been a significant lack of some items, Atlas track a glaring example, but the problem could have been in any aspect of any business that has few suppliers. When high priced items are going to be produced in a limited market, I understand why they do not mass produce items, but it would be nice if they would do reruns more often, since the dies are already made.
The economy in general isn't doing well and when the majority of the population has less and less expendable income, things like hobbies are among the first things to loose out. I would dearly like to buy some of the more expensive and better made items available, but limited income makes me turn to making things from natural materials, scratchbuilding and buying less detailed items. I do enjoy making kits, but have to settle for plastic kits in lieu of the very nice craftsman kits that are advertised.
Hopefully the hobby can weather the storm and continue making people happy with the wide variety of skill building it offers.
Have fun,
Richard
Sheldon,
The economy today just does not support the way we did model railroading years ago. Even 20-30 years ago, there would be shortages, they were just minor compared to what we see today(long lead times for production from off-shore). Back in the 80's, Athearn cars/engines would go into short supply for maybe 6 months until another run was produced. Most of the line was not in continuous production. As a former LHS co-owner, I remember the shortage of RDC's at one point and all the 'rumors' that the molds were broken/etc...
I learned early to pack rat some on my hobby supplies as they never seemed to be available when I needed them. People looked at me when I ordered a case of Athearn 40' box cars for future projects, or lots of Kadee couplers(another one of the shortages from time to time). I also bought those lovely P2K engines as they arrived, and did not wait for the big mail order 'blow out sales' to arrive.
I can see your point that it could be hard to start over with the 'selection' that is currently available. But the 'newbie' does not even think about the total picture like you and I do - They 'see' something they percieve as 'neat' and impulse purchase it. That is why we see such a strange mix of engines/rolling stoeck on layouts! My problen starting over would be the lack of decals for so much of the stuff I am interested in. Even finding undecorated cars can be a challenge. I am currently working on some C&NW 40' box cars. I have the Microscale decals, but finding the correct I-M 'improved' 1937 AAR box cars has been a challenge. I picked up three painted/decorated onces today for under $20 each, and they will hit the strip tank on Sunday. In the 'old' days, I would just dig out some Athearn ones from my 'cache' and dig through my Champ decals(or go to the LHS for them and Box Car Red paint).
Well, off to bed and start the project in the morning...
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
There is a far greater variety of products, in stock and ready to ship, than ever before in the history of the hobby. The difference is that there is an even _larger_ number of products that have shipped in the past and are not currently available or are announced and not yet shipped. That makes it seem that stuff is not availble.
Perspective, people.
A Newbie could buy the things they need for a layout at any time. Not everything that has ever been produced, but enough to build a layout.
And with eBay and other resellers, the universe of available products is even larger.
I have had enough of the crying for the good old days (which were not all that good) on this forum. Good night now.
I visited a hobby shop was about to close and one of the owner's gave me some insight why it was more difficult to stay in business. She stated that most manufactorers like to use certain paints and solvents that give the models the best appearance but unfeasible to use in the US because of the excessive regulations. Therefore the manufactores have to resort to outsourcing the production to other countries thereby being subjected to the "production run game". So to have a chance of obtianing a particular product they would have to order large quantities and wait up to a year or more for delivery. She said sometimes this uncertainty in delivery causes customers to loose interest in the product.
This seems to me as another example of the government being too involved in business. If they were smarter about enviromental regulations maybe these manufactorers could make their products in the USA and create more jobs here.
The state of New Jersey now will not allow the Telsa electric cars to be sold by Telsa dealers, instead sold through independant dealers.
The US and state governments should ease up on stupid regulations so we can pull ourselves out of this sluggish economy.
Good post, Sheldon, but you omitted one very important consideration - - customers !
Back in the 1950's when I was a kid, everyone had trains and everyone was building plastic models.
Walk into any LHS back then and there were 20 kids just like you and me shopping with their parents dollars.
That just isn't the case today. Kids don't play with trains. Kids don't buy trains with their parents dollars.
So, you open a super store for $10 million and pay monthly rent of $8,500. You stock the shelves with XYZ passenger cars and XYZ locomotives. You carry every brand out there, and you discount at 40 percent.
So what? What could is that if the only foot traffic is a bunch of guys with time on their hands who want to stand around, drink coffee, and BS.
Yeah, I know, we have all heard it many times before, go to any train show and you will see little buggy eyed kids in the aisles. That doesn't mean anything. If you want to know the state of the hobby, look in the playroom of any kid between the ages of 7 to 14. Do you see any model trains? Probably not.
It is not about costs or margins or any of that other financial stuff. It is all about customers, or the lack thereof.
My advice is to quit wringing our hands over the gradual demise of the hobby and enjoy it while we can. The only thing deader than the hobby is the LHS.
Rich
Alton Junction
I think today's new modeler far smarter and knows their way around the internet.
Today new modeler has top instant information just by asking a question on a forum.Instead of buying a Walthers catalog he now heads to walthers.com for instant stock check just like the local hobby shop and they can watch how to videos on you tube and learn how things is done from track laying to installing a decoder,reviews of products etc..
Years ago we had to go to the hobby shop or maybe the local club to seek information..The Walther catalog was the go to book but,the item shown may not be in stock when ordered through the local shop and today the catalog is basically outdated and worthless.
Times and means have change..You just need to know how and where to look for your paint and decals best starting place is Walthers since they show 13 pages of paint and supplies and 23 pages of decals.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
During my student days in the 1970´s, I earned some extra money helping out in a large toy store, which sported a huge train department ( afterall, our beloved and precious models are toys). In those days, we spent quite some time and natural intelligence (artificial one wasn´t around in those days) to monitor sales and stock development, just to ensure we´d never be out of stock. Inventory was tremendous, although the market did not offer the great variety of manufacturers and models we have today. Anyone coming to the store could be sure he left with the product he wanted to have. On top of that, we offered something precious, especially for newbies - advice and help!
Long gone are these days. There is no way any business could stock all the products available these days. In another thread, Sheldon said his ideal LHS would cost 10 million $ to set up, a figure I don´t dare to challenge. Aside from that, quite a lot of what we desire is subjected to pre-orders, limited runs, product announcements years before the actual release and other nuisances. If I had not been into this hobby for over 50 years now, would I take it up the way business is done today? Most likely not. We tend to forget, that any business is finally people business.
BRAKIE I think today's new modeler far smarter and knows their way around the internet. Today new modeler has top instant information just by asking a question on a forum.Instead of buying a Walthers catalog he now heads to walthers.com for instant stock check just like the local hobby shop and they can watch how to videos on you tube and learn how things is done from track laying to installing a decoder,reviews of products etc.. Years ago we had to go to the hobby shop or maybe the local club to seek information..The Walther catalog was the go to book but,the item shown may not be in stock when ordered through the local shop and today the catalog is basically outdated and worthless. Times and means have change..
Times and means have change..
couldn't agree more Larry,
You have to think like a new hobbyist, most people don't start with a plan to build an empire, they are curious and may start off with a readily available train set , then they may seek out Internet forums, slowly they grow more knowledgable about the hobby, themselves and what they would like to build, and they slowly start collecting what the need from shops , EBay and Train shows.
The hobby is healthy IMHO, it is just vastly different than what the older folks came to know about model railroading.
do I miss finding a new hobby shop when I travel? Very much so, but I still search them out, hoping to find that out if production kit tucked away in a dusty corner.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Geared Steam do I miss finding a new hobby shop when I travel? Very much so, but I still search them out, hoping to find that out if production kit tucked away in a dusty corner.
Now there's a thought. We should contact those two guys who star in American Pickers on the History Channel and have them search out those dusty corners of LHS and report back to us.
russ_q4bI visited a hobby shop was about to close and one of the owner's gave me some insight why it was more difficult to stay in business. She stated that most manufactorers like to use certain paints and solvents that give the models the best appearance but unfeasible to use in the US because of the excessive regulations. Therefore the manufactores have to resort to outsourcing the production to other countries thereby being subjected to the "production run game".
The thing with paint could change and it wouldn't make any difference. The cost of labor is what drives model production and that's a far bigger factor than any other in the cost of making a model. That's why so much is made in China, not because of some regs.
Sheldon's prespective is a bit paradoxical. I guess I don't see how the supply of many things even applies when you're willing to actually BUILD models. I've never run out of things to build yet, although sometimes getting a specific something can slow a particualr project until it becomes available.
If folks aren't building things, then missing out on something specific can be a drag. But really, it's mostly about paint and details, the same underlying model is produced over and over. Only in rare cases is something like the mechanism NOT recycled in this way, so buy the latest run and re-decorate it if you're ambitious, no need to make a federal case out of it...
As for more stuff being out of stock, as was mentioned, that's really because there is so much more offered, but it quickly passes through the distribution system and becomes unavailable under that specific stock number -- and it usually won't be re-run. No big deal in most cases, this is just a game played with numbers to say more stuff is out of stock. Warehouses full of every item ever offered are not coming back, this is just the way things are made these days. And there's little that is unique in our hobby about this. Have you ever tried to buy an original iPhone? Yep, it's out of stock, too
And realistically speaking, I don't remember the "good ol' days" as being able to get anything I wanted, any time, either. In fact, I remember a lot of out of stocks...maybe I just ordered weird stuff? All I know is that if you see something offered, order it or buy it now -- or don't bother whining about it later. That's a rule as old as the hobby. I don't see much point in blaming the Chinese or MBAs or anyone else for that unless you're just not paying attention.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
As long as I don't have to hear Mike laughing......
i have a love for the MDC 3-1 kits, can't explain it, I just do.
I remember visiting an LHS somewhere around the port of Long Beach. I found two steam shovel kits and a Moose Jaws 0-6-0 static loco kit for 8 bucks each. These go triple that on EBay
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut today, a modeler has few "staple" items he can count on being able to buy at his local hobby shop - think maybe that has something to do with so many of them closing?
I think hobby shops are facing the same problems as hardware and other stores are because of the economy; more so because hobbies are recreational.I think model railroading is changing in the same way as many hobbies in that people today want ready-to-run and are less inclined to assemble or build. (This seemed to be the trend in RC aircraft). I think building from kits or scratching building is an interesting part of the hobby, not the "dark age".But the hobby shop not only sells ready-to-run rolling stock, but construction materials and tools. And when I need a bigger ticket item (e.g. a decoder), the hobby shop can usually order it within a week. (How many people buy such items on-line instead of from their local hobby shop and then wonder why the hobby shop is closing)?When I grew up, Rich's Hobbytown in Pinebrook, NJ served more than one hobby. Maybe we need more not just model railroad hobby shops.Products for my railroad, The Reading, have been out of production for decades. Fortunately, ebay makes it possible, if not easy, to find items which wasn't possible before ebay became available.I think it's a misperception that kids have hobbies. While we may get interested in a hobby when we are kids, I think school, work, marrage and young kids of out own make it difficult to have a hobyy until we are older when time and resources become available.A recent Model Railroader editorial described a survey that found most Americans are not "tinkerers". For many of us, learning to build from scratch by starting with kits is the purpose of the hobby.So maybe it's inevitable that the model railroad hobby will shrink because - there are fewer tinkerers - people can't find the ready-to-run item - people can't find products for their railroadand as the market shrinks, even fewer products will be availableFor some, the hobby will remain satisfying. They will still be able to find the raw construction materials not unique to model railroading. And find old kits and rolling stock on ebay.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Hi!
Well, I have to say I basically agree with Sheldon (again). If I was thinking about entering the hobby today, I would have to do some real soul (and bank) searching. When I got into Lionel and later in HO, there was no hesitation.
Speaking to HO, I got started in the scale when I was 15 (1959). At that time, there were 3 major (and a few minor) manufacturers that made the entry relatively painless. Athearn produced terrific locos and cars, Atlas produced the track products, and MRC the power packs. With those three, you could quickly and easily get a layout up and running.
For basics, those were truly the "good ol days". But for intermediate or advanced stuff, you had to spend some big bucks on fairly limited availability of products.
IMO, the problem for today's new MR is the lack of affordable entry level track/locos/cars.
A saviour for the Hobby has been Ebay (and other auction sites). One can sell off old stuff to allow upgrading, or acquire used stuff at much cheaper (than new/retail) prices.
Anyway, I've got pretty much everything I want in HO right now, so I'm pretty content.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Geared Steam As long as I don't have to hear Mike laughing...... i have a love for the MDC 3-1 kits, can't explain it, I just do. I remember visiting an LHS somewhere around the port of Long Beach. I found two steam shovel kits and a Moose Jaws 0-6-0 static loco kit for 8 bucks each. These go triple that on EBay
I'd only laugh because I can relate to that. Always wanted to get some of those, missed them when they came out, then got serious about narrowgauge...
But really, weren't all the parts in each of those kits available elsewhere in the MDC line? I thought only the instructions were unique based on what I heard and the parts were from a range of diffferent kits picked over like a dog's breakfast. But I could be wrong about that, as I never got my grubby mits on any of them.
mobilman44IMO, the problem for today's new MR is the lack of affordable entry level track/locos/cars.
Agreed.. But,the Internet shops and e-Bay can help ease the pain.
IF Bachmann keeps improving their products then and IMHO they may become the entry level locomotives since most DCC equipped diesels can be had for less then $60..
Even their very basic EZ DCC system is affordable for the new hobbyist and gives simple multiple train operation..
A few more thoughts:
While I started in this hobby as a pre teen, I don't think the real purchasing power in this hobby has EVER had any thing to do with kids in the hobby. That opinion comes from having stood behind the counter back in those "golden days". The very first survey I read in MR about the hobby put the average age at 34 - that was in the 60's.
My comment about the fact that you had to build stuff back in the day only relates to my interests and the way most of the product was back then. While I am a builder for the most part, I have no problem with RTR, I buy my fair share of it, especially considering my planned total layout size. But it is a factor in terms of continuity of product - if you need 10 products for a project, and only three are available - those three are less likely to sell - hurting the retail sales.
As to how much product is out there at any one time, I will agree that if you include the secondary market there is way more than in the past. Personally I buy only a small percentage on the secondary market, and what I do buy that way is almost always "new old stock" type stuff, vertually never "already been played with" - that's just me, not just with model trains.......
But if you remove the secondary market from the picture, I think the amount of product out there at any one time is not much more than it was 30 years ago - I could be wrong.
My "super train store" would take years to get really going, plaacing preorders as products are announced to build the inventory, consistant competitive pricing but no "blowout sales" until product is clearly obsolete, etc. Yes it would go against all the bean counter theory currently used in business - I've made a fair amount of money in my life doing stuff differently than "conventional" thinking.......
My "super train store" would of course be on the web as well as its brick and mortar presence - no different than Train World or MB Kleins - just some of the strategies would be different. Example - new BLI loco comes out, we buy 120 of them, have low price (but likely not quite the lowest price) right from the start, we sell 80 of them in first 3 months, 20 more in next 9 months, the rest stay on the shelf, and on the web, at that original price - UNTIL THEY SELL. So five years later there might still be five of them, ten of them - we wil be the only game in town that has one new in the box............It's called "depth of inventory" and in every industry I know it seperates the big boys from the little boys.
I don't think the hobby is dieing - I do think the hobby could be doing better with different policies on the part of the manufacturers and retailers.
And I think profit margins could be much higher if both manufacturers and retailers were well enough funded to not have to "dump" product to pay for the next container load. All that does is drive down values in the mind of the consumer making it harder to get a fair price for the next product. Customers have come to expect the "closeout" sale - worst thing that was ever done in marketing.
And YES, I'm talking about the psychology getting you to pay more - higher profit margins would put more and better product on the shelves more of the time - but it would not take a lot more. Half or 3/4's of you are already paying the prices I am talking about - you know who you are, the guys who preorder at only 20% of retail. I'm saying the industry should stop giving the leftovers away to the other 1/3 of the customers and re-establish a sence of "value" in their products.
But What do I know......
Sheldon, you should make an appearance on Shark Tank.
You could ask for $10 million in exchange for a percentage of equity in the business.
Maybe Mr. Wonderful would take you up on your offer.
The "shortage" of what you need can also have a reverse negative affect. As a newbie I read several threads like this and so when I saw what I needed (at the time) I grabbed it.
The problem with that was that as I got further into my layout my plans that I had as a newbie changed. Timing as they say is everything.
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
richhotrain Sheldon, you should make an appearance on Shark Tank. You could ask for $10 million in exchange for a percentage of equity in the business. Maybe Mr. Wonderful would take you up on your offer. Rich
Robert Herjavec is the only Shark I would want to be in business with.............
Somebody puts up the 10 million, I only want 5% and a confortable sallery to run the place.
I think there is plenty of product available right now. It's not the same as 3-5 years ago and will all be different in 3-5 years from now. But there is always plenty available. Even track has been constantly available during the great Atlas shortage - just from other manufacturers.
If there is something specific you want, you may wait years (or forever) for it to come out. But there isomething else you can buy right now. If you have a specific set of desired products you can do a few things. First honestly evaluate how likely it is that some manufacturer will see a large enough market to produce - no sense waiting for that Cheasapeake Beach Railway passenger car that's never going to be made. Second, be prepared to buy as soon as it hits the market - anyone expect to see another run of Ma&Pa 4-4-0's anytime in the next decade? Third use what is avaialble now - while waiting for that PRR Mikado, use a PRR Pacific. Fourth use standins - while you're waiting for that SW9 switcher, use an NW2.
I think 2 things have changed in the last couple of decades. One, there is collector market in all scales. These guys want new stuff each year. This drives the market to not have staples. Two, many of today's modelers are pickier - I want that D&RG Mikado as it appeared in 1933. This drives the market to have limited run one time products - fits well with the collector crowd also.
But really, if you just want to have some fun with model trains, it's still just as easy to do today as it was 40 years ago when I got into the hobby. In fact it's better, now you can have sound and wireless control.
Enjoy
Paul
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd I think profit margins could be much higher if both manufacturers and retailers were well enough funded to not have to "dump" product to pay for the next container load. All that does is drive down values in the mind of the consumer making it harder to get a fair price for the next product. Customers have come to expect the "closeout" sale - worst thing that was ever done in marketing.
With certain infamous exceptions, notably the P2K and BLI situations at one time, cases of product being "dumped" are pretty rare. Yes, vendors go into this eyes open, knowing at retail a modelwill sell a few at MSRP, a whole lot at 20% off, and a small but variable number at deep discount to clear the rest of that item from their shelves.
Is this unique to our hobby? No. Do people expect this because it's simply a part of any product's life cycle? Yes. Can a small, niche industry carve out profit margins well above both its own historical trend and other aspects of retail? I doubt it and don't really care so long as the trains keep coming; there's no sign of a long term reversal in that.
While this concept for a hobby shop has been tried, the economics are wanting. Essentially, every LHS ever built hoped this would be their successful business plan. We can see how that's working out, so I question the need to reivent the wheel -- or more like putting that dead flat back on the same old car.. If making such a questionable long term investment in inventory has proven to be such a poor business model, I'd suggest not reinventing that wheel.
I must say I just don't see how any of this would discourage anyone truly interested in the hobby. It may frustrate them, if they are naive. Telling people that things were never like this before seems to me to be setting up false expectations about the present based on a mythical past. Nostaligia is heady stuff, even if it's often pretty fictional. And, unless one NEEDS Atlas track right away, I see little standing in the way of anyone building a very enjoyrable layout or enjoying many other aspects of the hobby at present than when I started in the hobby in 1970.
russ_q4bThis seems to me as another example of the government being too involved in business. If they were smarter about enviromental regulations maybe these manufactorers could make their products in the USA and create more jobs here.
Russ: I do not agree that workplace health and safety laws are excessive. I do not want anyone, even an american, to die of lung cancer or liver failure because they made model railroad products for me.
Chinese labour laws are comparable to Alamba field hand treatment before the civil war. Free trade laws are pulling the free world workers down to chineses, indian and pakistanie levels. And not just in model railroading items.
Dave, a proud retired union member.
davidmurray russ_q4b This seems to me as another example of the government being too involved in business. If they were smarter about enviromental regulations maybe these manufactorers could make their products in the USA and create more jobs here. Russ: I do not agree that workplace health and safety laws are excessive. I do not want anyone, even an american, to die of lung cancer or liver failure because they made model railroad products for me. Chinese labour laws are comparable to Alamba field hand treatment before the civil war. Free trade laws are pulling the free world workers down to chineses, indian and pakistanie levels. And not just in model railroading items. Dave, a proud retired union member.
russ_q4b This seems to me as another example of the government being too involved in business. If they were smarter about enviromental regulations maybe these manufactorers could make their products in the USA and create more jobs here.
Are you in favor of having Chinese workers to suffer lung cancer or kidney failure while there are making your choo choos?
This looks like a meal that has already been thorough chewed and digested but that never stops me .... There is a large array of products available today and the prototype accuracy and quality of paint and lettering and detail is often exquisite. With enough money you can be both a beginner and have top of the line stuff right from day one. But how many people enter a brand new hobby that they are -- and fact should be -- a little uncertain about by starting at the top of the line? Or feeling forced to go with the top of the line? The sporting goods stores sure know this; just look at the golf club offerings. It is clear that you start with these, move up to these, and one day you will want those. Clear quality differences matched by price.
The one thing I remember most clearly about my own early days in the hobby was the available progression of materials and items, a progression in quality, in difficulty and challenge, and in price. I think that is less clearly available these days. And the popular model magazines talked quite a bit about that progression -- product reviews would frankly say. this kit or product is not for the beginner, build some easier kits first, etc. Often the articles would make the same point -- try a few electronics projects before attempting this diode matrix switch ladder circuit, and the like. The Walthers catalog did (perhaps still does) label some items as "craft trains" with the message that this represents a higher expectation in skill, and materials and experience. It wasn't elitist or elitism - it was doing folks a favor.
To me that seems less evident today both in merchandise and published articles.
But in some ways what we are really doing is thinking about how we'd fare if we were beginners today. We compare it to what we had and we find it lacking. Today's beginners seem to adapt because every train show I go to is well attended with a pretty good cross section of ages too, not just geezers rubbing elbows with Thomas and Chuggington toddlers.
One more observation. Between the aging of the hobby and the attendant "estate sales" and "going to assisted living" sales, the turnover to DCC by many experienced hobbyists, and the quality of many of today's offerings, I don't know if there has ever been a better time than now to be in the market for used trains often at very decent prices.
Dave Nelson
IRONROOSTERBut really, if you just want to have some fun with model trains, it's still just as easy to do today as it was 40 years ago when I got into the hobby. In fact it's better, now you can have sound and wireless control. Enjoy Paul
Absolutely Paul..There a ton of older models out there if one looks at decent prices..
One can still enjoy the hobby at second tier(Is that the right word?) modeling.
As I've said many times one doesn't need DCC/Sound or high dollar cars and locomotives to enjoy the hobby.
Switching cars with my old BB GP7 or GP35 still brings a smile to my face.
dknelsonBut how many people enter a brand new hobby that they are -- and fact should be -- a little uncertain about by starting at the top of the line? Or feeling forced to go with the top of the line?
Dave,
I don't think there's anything intimidating about top-of-the-line equipment. Gotta be a little more careful handling it and there is that DCC stuff to figure out, unless you prefer to deal with DC. Other than that, only the cost is an issue.
But wait...
dknelsonBetween the aging of the hobby and the attendant "estate sales" and "going to assisted living" sales, the turnover to DCC by many experienced hobbyists, and the quality of many of today's offerings, I don't know if there has ever been a better time than now to be in the market for used trains often at very decent prices.
Here trains start to sound like cars. Buying new is expensive, but you get all kinds of goodies and safety features unavailable at any price a few years back. On the other hand, you can buy a "classic" and spend the effort to get it working well and stick with old-fashioned hardware. Perople complain about the cost of new vehicles. My last one was two decades ago. But there is no shortage of cars on the road.
Same thing with model railroads. People complain about new cars and their prices, but we all pretty much find a ride, right? Same thing for beginners in model railroading. Plenty to choose from and people rarely have to hold trains for lack of motive power -- or anything else -- AFAIK.
One more thing. People often choose what they modeled in the past based on what was available. That's such a narrow, restrictive, and unimaginative approach that most would not choose nowadays. There is so much more to choose from in terms of more items that represent specific prototypes, the skill set of modelers tends to be determined by how badly they want something, and getting the prototype right is often no more than getting the right paint and decals on what starts as a very nice model. If you can't handle any of that, then maybe slot cars ARE for you...
I've done my share of reminiscing about the good old days- I enjoyed the hobby then and, perhaps, even more nowdays as a more experienced and skilled model builder. That being said, the kids at the swap meets/shows I regularly attend are very young kids- the Thomas-the-Tank-Engine types, not young teens with an urge to build with their hands. The young kids are not going to be around in THEIR teens, as some newer electronic entertainment or device (virtual reality is just on the horizon now) will come along and captivate them, keeping them from the concept of "crafts" with their hands.
Those young teens that actually ARE interested have an experiential and knowledge gap- not their fault by birth date- of a lack of memory about the real railroad experiences and such that many of us treasure; therefore, their "degree-of-connectedness" is several steps away from ours, when the hobby was more "consumer-friendly" in the 1960s-1980s, and as a result, their interest would more likely derive from an general interest in things engineering-related or historically-related than anything else. Based on the industrial arts students I have taught for almost 20 years, those type of young teens are as rare as hen's teeth.
Anyone wanting to really get into the hobby should be attendant at those local swap meets and see if a local railroad club has some personal advice to offer- and use the "used resources" that are still much in supply (swap meets, online resales of equipment) to give themselves a less-costly standpoint from which to build on.
Cedarwoodron
Blame it, perhaps, on video games. Back when slot cars came out, they said it would wipe out model railroading. It didn;t/ barely dented it. But video games - that's all so many kids these days do. Instant gratification,as the next battle is over in mere minutes and it's on to another. Model railroading is probably the antitheses of instant gratification, it takes YEARS to build a sizeable empire and of course "no layout is every truly complete".
Sure you get insanely huge crowds on tourist railroads whenever they trot out Thomas. It's a HUGE draw, especially with the preschool set, but in today's frantic ADHD world, the train is soon forgotten as the next item sparks interest. We can lure them in quite well, it seems, but the hook rarely sets. No one has the patience and time for model railroading - or any sort of other kit building, how many people are building plastic airplane and car kits? That all just "takes too long"
And I agree witht he better educated modeler these days - not so sure how much this is impacting the 'newbie' modeler, but for those that have been around for a while, the fact that we can get nearly any bit of information we want at our fingertips has definitely changed buying habits. Look back in the so-called 'Golden Years' and you'll see many a fine pike featured in the magazines - all running the same locos, just painted and lettered for the individuals railroad. Nowadays, how much is someone laughed at for running a PRR K4 painted Santa Fe on a layout set int he Pacific Northwest? Buyers have gotten more picky, and the manufacturers have adapted. How shrewed as it of BLI/PCM in picking the road numbers for their "in service" versions of the Reading T1? Why, those just HAPPEN to be the numbers of some that were leased to the PRR during a power shortage in 1956. PRR also leased some Santa Fe locos during that time. They picked those road numbers in an attempt to expand the market - outrside of excursions later in life, no other road ran the T1, they didn't get sold off to some short line railroad when the Reading was done with them, they were scrapped. So they are of interest to Reading modelers of the about 1045-1957 era, and a few specialty modelers who might have a line that saw one of the various excusrion versions run. Oh and because of the numbers, someone modeling the PRR in 1956. Weak? Perhaps, but today's modelers are more savvy about what is correct and what isn't. I don't think we see many SP modelers buying NYC steamers and relettering them. They simply do not buy until an appropriate SP steamer is available. This in turn has led to tday's limited run built to order methodology - not the other way around. When every modeler who is working in the era and railroad depicted by a certain model and can afford said purchase has theirs, the market is saturated. If you still have 1000 units left over - good luck selling them.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
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